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RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!

SlothfulCobra posted:

Imperator's tribal migration system seems neat, but I wonder if they have more nomadic groups represented? Like both the fully nomadic groups and the seasonally nomadic.

Come to think of it, I wonder how pop migration is represented. Can the different-culture pops within your empire flock to your cities? Or can tribes migrating petition you to immigrate into your land?

And what in particular would motivate you or the AI to migrate?

There's no automatic internal migration, there are presumably events as well as other actions which can kill or move pops, and you can pay MP to move pops, but there's no kind of system where pops move around just because.

There is constant growth (and potentially starvation) of pops which does sort of model some of the mechanics of internal migration so it doesn't seem like a huge loss.

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fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
It really breaks my heart the way the Scottish guy who commentates the Imperator stream flees the room when it gets busy at the end. Don't be shy! You're funny!

Various Meat Products
Oct 1, 2003

You mean DDRJake? He's great. If you like him you should check out his twitch/youtube channels where he plays a bunch of different games in his free time.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Imperator: Rome - if you want to

aardvaard
Mar 4, 2013

you belong in the bog of eternal stench

fuf posted:

It really breaks my heart the way the Scottish guy who commentates the Imperator stream flees the room when it gets busy at the end. Don't be shy! You're funny!

i usually stop watching at that point anyways, i'm only there for jake

Enjoy
Apr 18, 2009
tfw you want to be there for jake but he's so distant...

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008

Jake is great as a streamer because he explicitly does none of the things that other streamers do that I hate (face cams, big annoying gifs whenever someone donates, etc). He's just there to play games and have fun.

Radio Free Kobold
Aug 11, 2012

"Federal regulations mandate that at least 30% of our content must promote Reptilian or Draconic culture. This is DJ Scratch N' Sniff with the latest mermaid screeching on KBLD..."




Cease to Hope posted:

Earlier HOI4 starts will always have the problem that the player's nation is ruled by a time traveler from the future who knows about the inevitability of WWII. It makes the game less about (alt-)history and more about breaking or exploiting whatever systems are supposed to stop you kicking off the war before everyone else's mechanical limitations on mobilization have timed out.

HOI4 already has a little bit of that problem, but at least kicking off the war in 1937 instead of 1939 gives the AI enough time to at least get started on its (alt-)historical war track.

You know what might help with this? A system that can possibly avert the war entirely, and averting the war entirely is a win condition for the Allies. This way, the war is a possibility rather than a certainty, and the Allied player(s) can get very invested into trying to prevent it (possibly at the cost of not-quite-fully gearing up for the war). Tie it into the Axis (and Comintern?) focus trees, where you get War Averted points for appeasing Hitler (ex. allowing Rhineland, Anschluss, Czech, Poland, etc.), and tie it into the Axis (and Comintern?) plays by giving them counteractable penalties associated with moderate to high War Averted values and a way to remove War Averted points. You'd probably want to tie this into the existing World Tension meter, maybe treat this all as revamping that system.

Maybe tie this into other alt-history scenarios too? Like, if Hitler tries to invade France and start the war for real when War Averted is at 90%, half the country (and half the army) says "No, we're not doing that" and it kicks off the Kaiser-timeline civil war instead. So for Germany (any other major aggro power?) it becomes a game of "How much can I get away with?"

Radio Free Kobold fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Feb 24, 2019

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008


Make appeasement points that don't have any function just like irl

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

Agean90 posted:

Make appeasement points that don't have any function just like irl

this is the core problem. because HOI4 is entirely premised on the inevitability of WW2, the only way to play to win is to ignore or bypass any system that prevents you from mobilizing in 1936 and invading in (as close to) 1937 because you know the other guy will do it first. there's no reason to try to put off war unless your country isn't ready yet. for all the alt-history, there's no way to seek "peace in our time", even though that was a major part of the politics of the time.

in the same way that HOI4 stalin is correct about being surrounded by internal enemies, HOI4 mussolini is correct about everything.

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008


Cease to Hope posted:

this is the core problem. because HOI4 is entirely premised on the inevitability of WW2, the only way to play to win is to ignore or bypass any system that prevents you from mobilizing in 1936 and invading in (as close to) 1937 because you know the other guy will do it first. there's no reason to try to put off war unless your country isn't ready yet. for all the alt-history, there's no way to seek "peace in our time", even though that was a major part of the politics of the time.

in the same way that HOI4 stalin is correct about being surrounded by internal enemies, HOI4 mussolini is correct about everything.

I think that's just you having to power game all the time Imo.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

Agean90 posted:

I think that's just you having to power game all the time Imo.

if you don't mobilize in the interwar period, you're either forced to mobilize or have nothing to do except mobilize by 1941. hitler can get everything he ever wanted, but chamberlain can't.

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
its almost like hitler's #1 desire was to start a war and the only way to stop that is to remove hitler

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
Yeah him I’m not entirely sure how you could give him what he want. It was never going to happen.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003

Good day what ho cup of tea
Hitler would've settled for being made boss of the universe without a war, but anything less than that was just a stepping stone.

Allegedly he was surprised the UK and France honoured their guarantee of Poland, however. I guess he thought nothing had changed since Czechoslovakia.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 18, 2013



Cease to Hope posted:

if you don't mobilize in the interwar period, you're either forced to mobilize or have nothing to do except mobilize by 1941. hitler can get everything he ever wanted, but chamberlain can't.
because war was inevitable unless all the Nazis had politely agreed to commit suicide.

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008


A real interesting alt history would be a way to make the league of nations not ineffective but that would likely require a start date before 1936

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

Terrible Opinions posted:

because war was inevitable unless all the Nazis had politely agreed to commit suicide.

"what if the Nazis lost control of Germany" is a supported alt-history and WWII still happens

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
Also a WW2 game with no war is really dumb.

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008


Cease to Hope posted:

"what if the Nazis lost control of Germany" is a supported alt-history and WWII still happens

It's a war game so I would hope so

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

CharlestheHammer posted:

Also a WW2 game with no war is really dumb.

everyone was talking about how cool it would be if HOI4 covered more of the interwar period.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

Cease to Hope posted:

everyone was talking about how cool it would be if HOI4 covered more of the interwar period.

But that doesn’t mean no war.

Or it wouldn’t be called interwar period

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Cease to Hope posted:

"what if the Nazis lost control of Germany" is a supported alt-history and WWII still happens

doesn't that require you to either put kaiser billy on back the throne with all his wacky ideas of naval supremacy or to get the british to agree to ally with you against a communist france

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

CharlestheHammer posted:

But that doesn’t mean no war.

Or it wouldn’t be called interwar period

they did not call it the interwar period in 1935.

Cease to Hope posted:

Earlier HOI4 starts will always have the problem that the player's nation is ruled by a time traveler from the future who knows about the inevitability of WWII. It makes the game less about (alt-)history and more about breaking or exploiting whatever systems are supposed to stop you kicking off the war before everyone else's mechanical limitations on mobilization have timed out.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
That has no real bearing on my point but okay.

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
but thats a problem with any start that isn't day 1 of when ww2 began for that nation. no soviet player is going to scatter their armies around in loose military districts to get easily encircled if they start any time before june 22, 1941

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
Like it’s a video game, you are going to be able to predict poo poo. It’s a WW2 simulator with some alt history elements, nit an alt history game with some WW2 elements

Jazerus
May 24, 2011


Raskolnikov38 posted:

but thats a problem with any start that isn't day 1 of when ww2 began for that nation. no soviet player is going to scatter their armies around in loose military districts to get easily encircled if they start any time before june 22, 1941

stalin would

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
Stalin wouldn’t play map games sorry.

Trotsky would tho.

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Jazerus posted:

stalin would

stalin didn't exactly have foreknowledge of barabrossa

i mean he did but he didn't believe it

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

1936 as the early start date is important because it's the year when everyone paying attention went 'oh poo poo we're definitely headed for a war in the next few years' and the question was how that was would happen and how much the allies could catch up in rearmament before then.

Beefeater1980
Sep 12, 2008

My God, it's full of Horatios!






CharlestheHammer posted:

Stalin wouldn’t play map games sorry.

Trotsky would tho.

Stalin would 100% play some kind of internal politics / economics sim tho.

E: CK2 except you can acquire the trait “counterrevolutionnary” from falling from favour and once you have that you can be purged.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003

Good day what ho cup of tea

Agean90 posted:

A real interesting alt history would be a way to make the league of nations not ineffective but that would likely require a start date before 1936

It's 1933 and you command an elite League of Nations assassination squad charged with eliminating leading fascists

Gobblecoque
Sep 6, 2011
Stalin would play EU but not see the army funding slider and instead delete all his armies before every war.

Funky Valentine
Feb 26, 2014

Dojyaa~an

Stalin deletes his generals when not at war because he likes the extra military points.

Angry Salami
Jul 27, 2013

Don't trust the skull.

Beefeater1980 posted:

Stalin would 100% play some kind of internal politics / economics sim tho.

E: CK2 except you can acquire the trait “counterrevolutionnary” from falling from favour and once you have that you can be purged.

“My lord, we caught this apostate in the act of reading Counter-revolutionary scripture, and giving praise to Trotsky! What shall be done with him?”

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo
A game that was HoI + Vicky + even more politics and the win condition was “be prosperous by the end date, starting in 1933” and you could actually avert war and benefit from it would be super fun. Also it would make for a way better Kaiserreich. Still the possibility of the full WW2 wargame but you can also lead socialist Uruguay to found a new era of eternal gay space peace without being bored.

Like, you actually have to decide whether to build railroads or tanks and both can possibly pay off.

Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Feb 25, 2019

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

A game that was HoI + Vicky + even more politics and the win condition was “be prosperous by the end date, starting in 1933” and you could actually avert war and benefit from it would be super fun. Also it would make for a way better Kaiserreich. Still the possibility of the full WW2 wargame but you can also lead socialist Uruguay to found a new era of eternal gay space peace without being bored.

Like, you actually have to decide whether to build railroads or tanks and both can possibly pay off.
Retool this a bit and make War Profiteers, a corporation-centric game where you only care about the war insofar as you can make profits off it or it can threaten your wealth. The war is 100% AI run, you just get the chance to sell them weapons.

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

A game that was HoI + Vicky + even more politics and the win condition was “be prosperous by the end date, starting in 1933” and you could actually avert war and benefit from it would be super fun. Also it would make for a way better Kaiserreich. Still the possibility of the full WW2 wargame but you can also lead socialist Uruguay to found a new era of eternal gay space peace without being bored.

Like, you actually have to decide whether to build railroads or tanks and both can possibly pay off.

This is getting pretty close to what I wanted East vs West to be but unfortunately it was being made by wargame grognards, the actual worst grognards, yes worse than the guys who argue over which obscure tabletop RPG system is best

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axeil
Feb 14, 2006

RabidWeasel posted:

This is getting pretty close to what I wanted East vs West to be but unfortunately it was being made by wargame grognards, the actual worst grognards, yes worse than the guys who argue over which obscure tabletop RPG system is best

The idea of East v West was amazing and could be a really good game but unfortunately the people making it were more obsessed with poo poo like sub-configuring your destroyers and I think something to do with the Panama Canal than how you make interesting proxy war mechanics and a fun economics/ideology-driven game where nuclear war is the failure state.

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