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dead gay comedy forums
Oct 21, 2011


Average Bear posted:

Jesus christ of course goons take to the front lines on the most important front of the culture war: gaming.

Yes, I would love it if I got spammed with events scolding me while I try to manage a battle line

tbqf it is kinda lame that for hearts of iron paradox goes with this sort of "vacuum of history" approach given that all their other games with the exception of stellaris try to not do so

like, WW2 Germany per default should do some pretty loving retarded planning moves due to "we need to prioritize the holocaust even though the logistical costs and efforts necessary to do so are absolutely insane"

England starts in EUIV with a retarded useless king, you deffo can make historical situations into relevant gameplay stuff

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The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008

Fun Shoe

Dramicus posted:

Now that you mention it, it's kinda extra messed up. No purge= Trotsky civil war(Meh, he's better than Stalin), half-assed purge = gently caress you here's your punishment, kill everyone and their dog = good job comrade

It seems like the obvious thing to do here when they inevitably get to reworking the USSR tree is to just make this into a branching path the same as the "Rhineland/Oppose Hitler" works. Just remove the idea that the purge was "correct" and make it more of a "In following the historical path, the purge happens. If you follow the ahistorical path, it doesn't".

Or the idea mentioned earlier where the purge is just random poo poo that Stalin does to gently caress you over and you have the option of taking a focus to remove him and stop it from happening. Honestly more countries should have "the dumbass dictator randomly fucks you over and you'd really be better off without them" events. Hitler wasn't exactly beneficial to the German war effort either.

Mr Luxury Yacht
Apr 16, 2012


I always assumed the mandatory choice of damaging purge vs. damaging civil war was for balance reasons, since it forces the USSR to have some sort of disadvantage early in the war to prevent them steamrolling Germany as soon as the war in the east kicks off.

Arrhythmia
Jul 22, 2011

Mr Luxury Yacht posted:

I always assumed the mandatory choice of damaging purge vs. damaging civil war was for balance reasons, since it forces the USSR to have some sort of disadvantage early in the war to prevent them steamrolling Germany as soon as the war in the east kicks off.

They could have come up with a reason to do the purges other than "Stalin Was Right".

Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010
Grimey Drawer

The Cheshire Cat posted:

Honestly more countries should have "the dumbass dictator randomly fucks you over and you'd really be better off without them" events. Hitler wasn't exactly beneficial to the German war effort either.

Another thing that DC: Barbarossa actually includes. You can also tell Hitler to gently caress off and stop meddling with military affairs, but at the cost of practically no support from the Nazi party.

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008

Fun Shoe

Mr Luxury Yacht posted:

I always assumed the mandatory choice of damaging purge vs. damaging civil war was for balance reasons, since it forces the USSR to have some sort of disadvantage early in the war to prevent them steamrolling Germany as soon as the war in the east kicks off.

Yeah this is basically it, but it's one of those "purely mechanical systems can still imply certain politics, even unintentionally" things. It's similar to how in like, Civilization, you "win" by becoming the dominant civilization on the planet. Whether this is done through war, diplomacy, culture, or science, it still implies that the colonial/clash of civilizations model of history is basically "correct". I don't think Sid Meier actually believes that is true - he just wanted to make a fun game with a historical coat of paint to make it easier for people to understand - but the political implication is still there.

When it comes to making a game set in WW2, you have to tread very carefully because the politics are a lot less abstract and a lot more recent.

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
the only part of the purge that’s actually damaging is losing Tukhachevsky because the rest of your starting field marshals suck rear end. everything else is minus PP or killing advisors you were never going to use anyhow

Randallteal
May 7, 2006

The tears of time
If you're making a historical video game, I think it's a good move to include something like a message at the front that what you're getting is a fantasy based on real events that's been balanced for entertainment. I don't think it's a good idea to try to gameify slavery, the holocaust, genocides, or anything like that (I know Pdox has already done some of that in the past, and it's always going to be a murky line to draw.)

Hearts of Iron is never going to be able to give the holocaust its due and be fun. Part of the fun of Hearts of Iron (and all historical fiction) is it uses historical signifiers and iconography to lull you into believing you're watching realistic or plausible world events play out. That tension is never going to be fully resolved. It's best to acknowledge the whole thing is a little hosed up but we're going to do it anyway because it's so much fun and so satisfying to do. Acknowledging it at the top is good, though.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

dead gay comedy forums posted:

tbqf it is kinda lame that for hearts of iron paradox goes with this sort of "vacuum of history" approach given that all their other games with the exception of stellaris try to not do so

like, WW2 Germany per default should do some pretty loving retarded planning moves due to "we need to prioritize the holocaust even though the logistical costs and efforts necessary to do so are absolutely insane"

England starts in EUIV with a retarded useless king, you deffo can make historical situations into relevant gameplay stuff

Eh all of paradox games use vacuum of history. They kind of have to to function

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008

Fun Shoe

Randallteal posted:

If you're making a historical video game, I think it's a good move to include something like a message at the front that what you're getting is a fantasy based on real events that's been balanced for entertainment. I don't think it's a good idea to try to gameify slavery, the holocaust, genocides, or anything like that (I know Pdox has already done some of that in the past, and it's always going to be a murky line to draw.)

Hearts of Iron is never going to be able to give the holocaust its due and be fun. Part of the fun of Hearts of Iron (and all historical fiction) is it uses historical signifiers and iconography to lull you into believing you're watching realistic or plausible world events play out. That tension is never going to be fully resolved. It's best to acknowledge the whole thing is a little hosed up but we're going to do it anyway because it's so much fun and so satisfying to do. Acknowledging it at the top is good, though.

A lot of people made fun of the Assassin's Creed "This game is a work of fiction made by a multi-national team of many faiths and cultures" intro text but yeah in this day and age it does kind of seem like it's necessary to stick a disclaimer "just because we have depicted these things does not mean we endorse them. Real war is not glorious, real war is not fun. Don't be a shithead" in a game that touches on sensitive political topics. Like yeah 99% of players probably don't need to be told that but still, it wouldn't hurt to say it anyway.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
I mean that’s more of an empty gesture, it doesn’t really mean or do anything.

Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010
Grimey Drawer
You are right, Paradox should focus on expanding the Waffen SS mechanics instead.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
If they want to sure, but I think Germany has enough focus the smaller nations could use the love. Though I don’t play Germany as it’s boring so I can’t really care

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008

Fun Shoe

CharlestheHammer posted:

I mean that’s more of an empty gesture, it doesn’t really mean or do anything.

I'd disagree that it wouldn't do anything because it's basically telling nazis "we do not support your politics, we do not want your patronage". It's like when the Dead Kennedy's wrote "Nazi punks gently caress off" after they discovered the had neo-nazis who took the song "California uber alles" literally and were coming to their shows. Sometimes you need to go that extra mile of straight up telling them to gently caress off for them to get the message. If you leave it vague they interpret that as "well they can't SAY they support us because of the PC police but they haven't said they DON'T support us either, if you know what I mean".

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
I think banning Nazis from their forums and conventions accomplished that more

Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010
Grimey Drawer

CharlestheHammer posted:

If they want to sure, but I think Germany has enough focus the smaller nations could use the love. Though I don’t play Germany as it’s boring so I can’t really care

I think most of the reason why Germany gets all the focus is because they are the most played nation, even with the new DLC. America and Britain jumped up a lot, but the majority of people were taking the facist paths. I imagine German play % will creep back up again over time. So in a purely business sense, Germany content = sales.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...20190313_for_dd

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
i'm amazed the soviets are so high given that paradox has ignored them since game launch

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008

Fun Shoe

Raskolnikov38 posted:

i'm amazed the soviets are so high given that paradox has ignored them since game launch

They're big. That's a strong attraction. The US was still pretty popular even before the focus tree rework and like they don't even DO anything for the first 5 years of the game.

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008


The Cheshire Cat posted:

They're big. That's a strong attraction. The US was still pretty popular even before the focus tree rework and like they don't even DO anything for the first 5 years of the game.

Also they're fairly simple to play. No huge preexisting navy to worry about and a contiguous country is a plus for a lot of people.

Farecoal
Oct 15, 2011

There he go

dead gay comedy forums posted:

like, WW2 Germany per default should do some pretty loving retarded planning moves due to "we need to prioritize the holocaust even though the logistical costs and efforts necessary to do so are absolutely insane"

not sure accurate this is but: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4qwxcc/did_the_holocaust_have_an_impact_on_germanys/d4wooxr/

and https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3n4mx8/how_much_did_the_holocaust_cost_germany/

axeil
Feb 14, 2006

Agean90 posted:

Also they're fairly simple to play. No huge preexisting navy to worry about and a contiguous country is a plus for a lot of people.

USSR was always the best tutorial nation in HOI2 as well since you could ignore the navy and air force and armor mechanics and just build 8 million infantry divisions.

I wish they'd make USSR fun to play, the barrenness of its tree is really stark now when compared to everyone else :smith:

Phlegmish
Jul 2, 2011



I've never played Germany or the Soviet Union and not even for ideological reasons, I just can't bring myself to play either of the obvious choices. I've never played Ricky as the UK, either

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
Germany, Japan, soviets and America are who you go as for gigantic campaigns against each other. UK in Vicky is just easy mode

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
Germany is the game you play to get into the game.

The Soviet Union is the slightly harder but not to hard game.

Then you play Albania

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008

Fun Shoe

CharlestheHammer posted:

Germany is the game you play to get into the game.

The Soviet Union is the slightly harder but not to hard game.

Then you play Albania

King Zog does not submit.

trapped mouse
May 25, 2008

by Azathoth

Phlegmish posted:

I've never played Germany or the Soviet Union and not even for ideological reasons, I just can't bring myself to play either of the obvious choices. I've never played Ricky as the UK, either

i never really saw the UK as the "obvious" choice in Vicky2 myself. to drag this metaphor over to eu4, i would compare the UK to Ming instead, whereas the Ottomans are probably the "obvious" choice in that game

both the UK and Ming have this thing of starting off way way high on the top and ending up being relatively boring unless you decide to go completely off the rails in one way or another. if you start off with such a comfortable lead, maintaining your status (as a player) is not hard

(also, i always thought of Prussia as the obvious choice in Vicky2)

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo
I love HoI4 (and prolly have 10x as many hours in 2 and DH) but they all absolutely support the clean Wehrmacht myth, and come complete with dreamy Wehraboo falsehoods like “the nazi economy worked great!” and “Germany had the most kawaii general staff so they get foreverbonuses.”

There needs to be concessions so Germany poses a threat, and I don’t want Holocaust Sim 2k19. I’m a drat jew.

But also the whole “no war crimes here, look at all the cool generals and tanks, oh have a bunch of free resources and land with no resistance because of course Prague dreams of the Reich!” HoI Germany turns me the gently caress off. It’s been nearly a decade since I played Hitler-Germany in HoI and I doubt I’ll start any time soon.

Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Mar 16, 2019

Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010
Grimey Drawer

trapped mouse posted:

i never really saw the UK as the "obvious" choice in Vicky2 myself. to drag this metaphor over to eu4, i would compare the UK to Ming instead, whereas the Ottomans are probably the "obvious" choice in that game

both the UK and Ming have this thing of starting off way way high on the top and ending up being relatively boring unless you decide to go completely off the rails in one way or another. if you start off with such a comfortable lead, maintaining your status (as a player) is not hard

(also, i always thought of Prussia as the obvious choice in Vicky2)

Prussia was fun because unlike the UK, France, Austria, Spain, Russia, etc, you had to build your nation from the ground-up and unification was a nice climactic reward for your efforts. The same was true for Italy. Japan also had a similar path where you wanted to eventually become powerful enough to challenge China, and then win against a European power like Russia or the UK/US. They had a pretty logical progression in terms of objectives.

Beefeater1980
Sep 12, 2008

My God, it's full of Horatios!






I’ve realised that I play HOI4 first as a logistics and production simulator, second as an AAR and only third to win. I have never touched the traditional fascist Germany because I remember winning clash of steel Germany as a teen and feeling really weird and uncomfortable.

The best WW2 USSR game I ever played was a Civ2 mod. Can’t remember the name but it was in multiple parts and the game was basically about trying frantically to give as little ground as possible while getting absolutely pasted by Germany. It was great.

YF-23
Feb 17, 2011

My god, it's full of cat!


Maybe the games could pop events telling the player they are a bad person if after a certain point the vast majority of their games they play as fascists.

I mean, I joke, but it's a concern that should be adressed in some way. HoI2 had a "Rape of Nanjing" event that was part of the event line that pushed the US towards interventionism/anti-Japanese diplomacy, so this isn't quite the kind of thing that Paradox has always been too shy to do. And I honestly don't buy into the idea that that sort of acknowledgement has no gameplay value and would disrupt the flow of gameplay or whatever. The game already thinks you care enough about the 15th ace you generated and will happily stop you to let you know.

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

Incredible machine
:smug:


Dramicus posted:

America and Britain jumped up a lot, but the majority of people were taking the facist paths.

In general, HOI4 has given fascism massive mechanical advantages over the other ideologies since day one, especially for countries that are still stuck with a generic focus tree. It's inexcusable.

I've barely ever played HOI4 multiplayer, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't pretty much -everybody- go fascist regardless of which side they're on?

Yaoi Gagarin
Feb 20, 2014

The fascist countries need to be buffed for gameplay reasons. If the outcome of the war was a foregone conclusion there wouldn't be much point to the game

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Drone posted:

In general, HOI4 has given fascism massive mechanical advantages over the other ideologies since day one, especially for countries that are still stuck with a generic focus tree. It's inexcusable.

I've barely ever played HOI4 multiplayer, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't pretty much -everybody- go fascist regardless of which side they're on?

It's a game about war where you can play an ideology that believes all human existence is a brutal struggle for survival. Of course it will do better. I do agree that I wish we could have designed the game in a way that rewards the democracies for playing as democracies and trying to maintain the status quo as much as possible, but that would require changes so fundamental that they can basically only be made in a new game. When we designed the war support/stability mechanic one of the goals with it was to make fascism a more brittle system of government - basically you need a string of victories or things will turn against you very quickly, while democracies in a defensive war basically won't have to worry about war support.

Unfortunately the entire rest of the game is designed around letting the player experience a string of victories if they play as fascists, so...

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009

VostokProgram posted:

The fascist countries need to be buffed for gameplay reasons. If the outcome of the war was a foregone conclusion there wouldn't be much point to the game



That's fair enough, but the problem is the best way to play a lot of not Axis nations, especially minors, is to take the fascist tree.

That makes no sense at all.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

ArchangeI posted:

It's a game about war where you can play an ideology that believes all human existence is a brutal struggle for survival. Of course it will do better.
It follows that fascist countries should be encouraged mechanically to wage aggressive war. It does not follow that they should be good at it just because their ideology says they're a superior martial race.

RabidWeasel
Aug 4, 2007

Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!
Is there an Imperator thread yet or are we waiting for the game to actually come out first?

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

A Buttery Pastry posted:

It follows that fascist countries should be encouraged mechanically to wage aggressive war. It does not follow that they should be good at it just because their ideology says they're a superior martial race.

this

RabidWeasel posted:

Is there an Imperator thread yet or are we waiting for the game to actually come out first?

nobody has posted one yet. :justpost: if you want

turn off the TV
Aug 4, 2010

moderately annoying

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

But also the whole “no war crimes here, look at all the cool generals and tanks, oh have a bunch of free resources and land with no resistance because of course Prague dreams of the Reich!” HoI Germany turns me the gently caress off. It’s been nearly a decade since I played Hitler-Germany in HoI and I doubt I’ll start any time soon.

My hope with HoI4 is that it gets a tank equivalent of the ship designer and the nazi focus tree uses it to absolutely gently caress you over.

Pharnakes
Aug 14, 2009

RabidWeasel posted:

Is there an Imperator thread yet or are we waiting for the game to actually come out first?

Pfft, Rule the Waves 2 has been announced for the 25th of April. Imperator has no hope.

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Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010
Grimey Drawer

ArchangeI posted:

When we designed the war support/stability mechanic one of the goals with it was to make fascism a more brittle system of government - basically you need a string of victories or things will turn against you very quickly, while democracies in a defensive war basically won't have to worry about war support.

Unfortunately the entire rest of the game is designed around letting the player experience a string of victories if they play as fascists, so...

That's definitely true when it comes to nations like Italy, Romania, maybe even Hungary. But for Germany and Japan, it doesn't really pan out like that. They both had to be kicked into the dirt before they even thought about surrendering, and even then it wasn't easy. Also, democratic France's war support was abysmal.

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