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Pinterest Mom posted:Taking a stab at it: We don't really care about the agency of individual members of the scumteam - you're kind of an rear end in a top hat as scum if you play to maximise your own chance of living to the detriment of your team's chance of victory. exactly, yes. individual player agency is something i think about when designing games because it's one of the fundamental problems with mafia. there's an uneven distribution of power among town almost universally, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but coming from a board game background makes things a little less fun. i mean, is anyone genuinely excited to get vanilla town? yes, i know it's the best role BUT rather than concentrating power in one place, spreading it out as much as possible makes things more fun for the players as a whole because it gives them greater agency over the game. your choices should matter in any game, whether it's day or night. traditional games that give one player more power than another without considering the nature of that relationship tend to be poorer for it. pin hits the nail on the head with the pandemic comparison. you're almost always playing with a unified front as scum, which is why scum team disagreements tend to get very ugly when they do occur. as a moderator you have to assume that the scum team is all playing together to win, which is why vanilla goons are more fun than vanilla town. you still have input and direction over the course of your group night actions even if you aren't the coolest role on your team.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:01
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Propaganda Machine posted:Even to contribute new ideas to a wave of momentum? I mean, if you can prevent your buddy's lynch in any way possible you absolutely should. I had a great excuse for not voting or looking at Max on day 1: I was actively going after the chief guy who was casing him. That could have come back to bite me in the rear end, but by taking a position where I clearly wasn't going to vote Max I made that vote a little less possible. The scant credit you get for voting for your scumbuddy is almost never worth having lylo come a day later with one less person on your team to influence it. People only bus because it's really really easy to call someone scum when you already know they are scum, it's just a lazy way of going after town cred.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:02
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Pinterest Mom posted:Taking a stab at it: We don't really care about the agency of individual members of the scumteam - you're kind of an rear end in a top hat as scum if you play to maximise your own chance of living to the detriment of your team's chance of victory. Well, sure, but this is why bussing becomes a thing, and that's what TNL just said was stupid. I see the reasoning behind letting Max die to get his two absolutely guaranteed kills; it fueled the SK theory. At the same time, though, scumteam is precious real estate and it strikes me as odd to be so flippant with it? More to the point, though, it seemed that somber was more speaking to the SA meta in general. We do jump on busses, and scum doesn't generally have this sort of suicide bomber mechanic. I feel like there must be upside to letting Max survive for at least another day, but he was drawing enough shade that I guess you probably made the right call.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:04
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The Ninth Layer posted:I mean, if you can prevent your buddy's lynch in any way possible you absolutely should. I had a great excuse for not voting or looking at Max on day 1: I was actively going after the chief guy who was casing him. That could have come back to bite me in the rear end, but by taking a position where I clearly wasn't going to vote Max I made that vote a little less possible. for example, if you've played avalon, it's usually worth it just to get the point as the red team rather than playing deep cover three-dimensional chess. every town dunk is a point for you, if you're bussing you need to really think about whether that will get you two more town lynches as payoff, because that's the point at which you see a return on your investment(given the assumption that both night kills go through).
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Oct 15, 2016 07:05
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Propaganda Machine posted:Well, sure, but this is why bussing becomes a thing, and that's what TNL just said was stupid. With one shot abilities you are always weighing their potential usefulness later vs their practical usefulness now. Town vigilantes have this dilemma too: do they sit on their kill to get the greatest value out of it or do they use it early before the Mafia nightkills them? There's no universal answer so it just really depends on how likely you think you'll be able to use those abilities later. I can't speak for Max's decision, I had no internet access until that Monday morning and basically sent in my action blind. But I'll say that as scum you usually have a pretty good sense of who has it in for you and where the town momentum is. I definitely believed I was going to get voted out day 3 and I wouldn't be too surprised if Max felt similarly. I should add that certain one-shot abilities are game-winning if you can save them for the right time, like lylo. Max's ability was not one of them, because even though he gave us an extra kill he also died on the second one.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:21
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Hey all. The moment I got my role pm, I knew I was going to burn it immediately and die by night 2 if I survived. I think I played pretty poorly but I did so semi-intentionally because I didn't want anyone on my team to be implicated by my death. I thought for sure people would catch on to the fact that I was the "sk" since there were three deaths n2 and no more fire deaths after. TMM had to go since he would have lead the charge on all of us so it would have been GG if he lived. My little thing with mafia nk's is that you should just go after your biggest threat in game since no one in this community spends more than a second contemplating NK targets. This was a good setup but I'm sad there was so much apathy going on. Thanks Ecco! Max fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Oct 15, 2016 |
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Oct 15, 2016 12:41
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remember when i said TNL was scum good times
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Oct 15, 2016 13:19
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Propaganda Machine posted:Also, dongs, what did you think about your role PM after I flipped sane cop and Max claimed the masonry? i was fairly sure my results were useless, hence why i immediately went after max that day despite having a town result on him
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Oct 15, 2016 15:18
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also JESUS CHRIST PMACH WHY HAVENT YOU ACCEPTED THE TRADE
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Oct 15, 2016 15:19
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Absurd Revolver posted:remember when i said TNL was scum I also remember when you said Birdstrike was scum. I might have to take a break from mafia, I wound up with a minor panic attack last night over how badly I bungled endgame on this one  Although I guess in my defense the rest of town was Not Very Helpful.
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Oct 16, 2016 06:20
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Oct 16, 2016 06:21
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we tried Hats, we tried. I enjoyed your play and one day we'll be on a winning team!
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Oct 16, 2016 06:26
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He was, in his very first game!
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Oct 16, 2016 06:27
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Max posted:He was, in his very first game! Yeah, but that was a soldiers game, which I'm very quickly coming to appreciate as being quite different from Mafia.
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Oct 16, 2016 06:29
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The Lord of Hats posted:I also remember when you said Birdstrike was scum. i think if you gave it a little more time you woulda figured it out. no worries though, good game.
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Oct 16, 2016 06:45
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Max posted:He was, in his very first game! I still want to see your town game
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Oct 16, 2016 13:53
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Tobbs Gnawed posted:I still want to see your town game Making the argument "He's too good as scum, lets d1 lunch him" guarantees I'll go after you as town.
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Oct 16, 2016 14:18
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Max posted:Making the argument "He's too good as scum, lets d1 lunch him" guarantees I'll go after you as town. Somber made a good point in the mafia discussion thread, that if you have good and bad arguments for lynching someone, leave out the bad ones. I knew you were scum based on your voting dongs for mechanics reasons and casing players who were the current vote leader. There was too much superficiality coming from someone capable of depth. I also knew, from experience, that your scum game is subtle enough that it's a pain in the rear end to get you lynched. When TMM died N1, I thought for sure they'd take a look at you, and you even tried to bring some attention to yourself, but there was nothing. You died because of the juggernaut kills, but if not for that mechanic I'm sure you'd have endgamed town much sooner with TNL and PMOM.
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Oct 16, 2016 15:01
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Tobbs Gnawed posted:Somber made a good point in the mafia discussion thread, that if you have good and bad arguments for lynching someone, leave out the bad ones. I knew you were scum based on your voting dongs for mechanics reasons and casing players who were the current vote leader. There was too much superficiality coming from someone capable of depth. I also knew, from experience, that your scum game is subtle enough that it's a pain in the rear end to get you lynched. I would have tried harder to blend in, yes. The juggernaut kills made me want to just go out in a blaze of glory, so I wasn't really thinking too hard about blending so much as just surviving two days. Props though, you are good at catching out scum.
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Oct 16, 2016 15:16
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Aside from apathy, I just had the wrong picture of the game in my head. I was sure there was an SK. That threw off everything I did at endgame, I need to be more aware that my setup spec could be vastly wrong. Thanks for the game ecco.
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Oct 16, 2016 15:30
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