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See now a REAL plan would be to turn Auron into some kind of Counter-Sin by getting him to chug down pyreflies too, then have a giant battle with two Sins and zero fucks.
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Apr 4, 2016 08:15
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Danaru posted:See now a REAL plan would be to turn Auron into some kind of Counter-Sin by getting him to chug down pyreflies too, then have a giant battle with two Sins and zero fucks. Fill a lake with booze and wait for Jecht-Sin to come get shitfaced until it passes out. Then climb on and stab the poo poo out of it.
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Apr 4, 2016 08:18
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Fill a lake with booze and wait for Jecht-Sin to come get shitfaced until it passes out. Then climb on and stab the poo poo out of it. That's pretty much what Tidus and friends did, minus the lake of booze part 
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Apr 4, 2016 09:40
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They could use Tidus as kind of a Sin bypass to get into Zanarkand and fight a sapient Yu Yevon directly.
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Apr 4, 2016 14:31
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Geostomp posted:They could use Tidus as kind of a Sin bypass to get into Zanarkand and fight a sapient Yu Yevon directly. For all we know, Jecht WAS dream Yu Yevon. I mean, Yu Yevon was Zanarkan's leader and Jecht was pretty much pretty much treated like the most important person of Dream Zanarkand, even 10 years later, much like a leader would be. Unless you are saying there was a actual second Yu Yevon there alongside the one inside Sin that wasn't just acting on pre-determined directives. OminousEdge fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Apr 4, 2016 |
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Apr 4, 2016 14:44
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OminousEdge posted:For all we know, Jecht WAS dream Yu Yevon. I mean, Yu Yevon was Zanarkan's leader and Jecht was pretty much pretty much treated like the most important person of Dream Zanarkand, even 10 years later, much like a leader would be. Unless you are saying there was a actual second Yu Yevon there alongside the one inside Sin that wasn't just acting on pre-determined directives. I was actually reading the FF wiki yesterday (so take this info with a grain of salt, I suppose), and apparently one of the Ultimanias mentions that Dream Zanarkand's citizens have been living a normal life for the past 1000 years, including having children, growing old, and dying. So Tidus couldn't be Dream Shuyin (who presumably died a natural death 1000 years ago), but he might be a descendant of Dream Shuyin.
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Apr 4, 2016 18:25
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END ME SCOOB posted:That's the entire gameplay loop of Radiant Historia and both games rock, don't hate.
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Apr 4, 2016 19:39
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Warning: Story might be stupid. Truer words were never spoken. Good night Tidus, and sweet dreams.
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Apr 4, 2016 20:57
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Elric posted:Radiant Historia had the most competent protagonist I have ever seen. He pretty much had to be, in order to perfectly remember his script every single time he jumped timelines and back.
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Apr 4, 2016 22:32
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I'm a sucker for games with lots of branching paths and bad endings with only one truly good ending involved. That's probably what also got me into a game like Virtue's Last Reward. Oh dear lord, let's never hope Id never tries to get into the the Zero Escape series. Let's leave that to Fedule.
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Apr 5, 2016 00:06
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Zero didn't escape when the controller was in _his_ hands.
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Apr 5, 2016 16:53
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Derek Barona posted:He pretty much had to be, in order to perfectly remember his script every single time he jumped timelines and back. Stocke is about as competent as a protagonist can be without being a Gary Stu. Winds up being pretty refreshing really Why ARE dumbass JRPG protagonists the norm anyway
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Apr 5, 2016 17:14
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Captain Oblivious posted:Stocke is about as competent as a protagonist can be without being a Gary Stu. Winds up being pretty refreshing really Because these games are made for teenagers and teenagers are dumb so a dumb protagonist is someone they can relate to.
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Apr 5, 2016 17:22
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Captain Oblivious posted:Stocke is about as competent as a protagonist can be without being a Gary Stu. Winds up being pretty refreshing really Often the protagonists are meant to be the lens through which the player views the game's story, and the best way to learn about details is through an inquisitive protagonist that knows about as much as the player. However it often feels like a lot of JRPG's go full dumbass so you have completely clueless idiots like Tidus spewing out dumb ideas and plans that shouldn't work. Then you get protagonists like Yuri Lowell from Tales of Vesperia who are savvy on the world around them and I wish we could get more like that.
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Apr 5, 2016 17:25
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Captain Oblivious posted:Stocke is about as competent as a protagonist can be without being a Gary Stu. Winds up being pretty refreshing really Because they think of a scene, and then they think, "how can I get the heroes and villains to set up this scene", and often the answer is "if they were smart, it wouldn't happen". So, dumb it is.
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Apr 5, 2016 17:27
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JRPG's, like many other stories, are frequently told from the perspective of an outsider since it allows for easy and natural worldbuilding. Also having a character behave stupidly or illogically makes the writing easier. Honestly by the standards of dumb jrpg protagonists, Tidus isn't even that bad. Compare him to Ceodore from FF4 The After Years. Ceodore seems like they legitimately tried to write him as mentally retard. His catch phrase is "Huh?" because every single plot point, no matter how simple, has to explained to him a second time in simplest possible terms by the other characters.
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Apr 5, 2016 18:28
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Captain Oblivious posted:Why ARE dumbass JRPG protagonists the norm anyway Accordion Man fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 5, 2016 18:59
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How Rude posted:Often the protagonists are meant to be the lens through which the player views the game's story, and the best way to learn about details is through an inquisitive protagonist that knows about as much as the player. However it often feels like a lot of JRPG's go full dumbass so you have completely clueless idiots like Tidus spewing out dumb ideas and plans that shouldn't work. It's one of the reasons why I like Tales of the Abyss. Not only is Luke's idiocy explained in-story, it's also plot relevant! (For those who haven't played the game, or read the excellent LP of it in the archives: Luke suffered total amnesia 7 years before the game started as the result of a kidnapping, and has spent the time since then being locked in his family manor for his own protection. He knows nothing of the outside world, and this bites him repeatedly. The rest of the party treat him like the audience treats dumbass protagonists until he beats them over the head with just how bad a position he started out in - his line of "I had to relearn what my parents look like!" is quite poignant in getting the rest of the party - and the audience to start being better people to him.
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Apr 5, 2016 19:30
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I dont know posted:JRPG's, like many other stories, are frequently told from the perspective of an outsider since it allows for easy and natural worldbuilding. Also having a character behave stupidly or illogically makes the writing easier. Yeah. A lot of game worlds have things which need to be explained to the player, but they're things which most people in the setting should already know about, which makes it difficult to write in the necessary information without making the protagonist seem dumb. quote:Honestly by the standards of dumb jrpg protagonists, Tidus isn't even that bad. Yeah. I mean in this LP for instance, I recall people criticizing Tidus for telling everyone that he was from Zanarkand, but if you take out Dark Id's additions, not so much. He tells Rikku on the ship at the start of the game, before he knew Zanarkand was destroyed a thousand years earlier, and she gives him the "Sin Toxins" excuse. One trip via Sin later and he ends up on Besaid and tells Wakka he's from Zanarkand. Wakka goes  and Tidus immediately walks it back and says he got too many "Sin Toxins". Wakka is the one who spreads Tidus's story to the rest of Besaid and to Yuna.
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Apr 5, 2016 19:32
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I would also say most protags that people call "dumb" are actually just naive that are in way over their heads than legitimately inept, because there's a tendency to beboop decisions into "no one calm, out of the situation, and twice the age of this boy would make this decision."
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Apr 5, 2016 20:56
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Tae posted:I would also say most protags that people call "dumb" are actually just naive that are in way over their heads than legitimately inept, because there's a tendency to beboop decisions into "no one calm, out of the situation, and twice the age of this boy would make this decision." Yeah, having out-of-context perspective really lets you keep a level head through a lot of the poo poo most JRPG protags find themselves in. The villain just grabbed your girl and told you to hand over the key to his plans or he'll slit her throat? As a player, you think "Don't do it, he's a loving liar, don't be stupid." As the guy in that position, with that knife up against my girl's neck, I wouldn't even hesitate. Perspective's a wonderful thing.
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Apr 5, 2016 22:14
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How Rude posted:Often the protagonists are meant to be the lens through which the player views the game's story, and the best way to learn about details is through an inquisitive protagonist that knows about as much as the player. However it often feels like a lot of JRPG's go full dumbass so you have completely clueless idiots like Tidus spewing out dumb ideas and plans that shouldn't work. Fire Emblem's kinda interesting for this recently, since Fates and Awakening went in basically the opposite direction. In Awakening, Robin starts the game amnesic, so everything gets explained to him, but by the halfway point he spends most of his time being the smartest guy in the room. When he makes a questionable call, there's usually a scene beforehand explaining why, despite it being a bad call, it seemed like the least bad from an unpleasant set, and he usually makes at least okay ones. He also gets a scene which explains he had a plan going in the background for multiple missions that the player didn't even know about, just so he could humiliate an enemy with how dumb he is before killing him. Fates gives us... Corrin. Now, he's slightly less of an idiot in the other two routes, but Conquest Corrin does his level best to win the "Dumbest JRPG protagonist" award. At one point, he can't recognize his (possible) wife when she puts on a different dress. His wife who is the only person in the game with nearly floor length blue hair, who is singing the one song she knows and using water magic, her unique ability which no-one else has. gently caress's sake, Corrin.
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Apr 6, 2016 04:14
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chiasaur11 posted:Fates gives us... Corrin. Now, he's slightly less of an idiot in the other two routes, but Conquest Corrin does his level best to win the "Dumbest JRPG protagonist" award. At one point, he can't recognize his (possible) wife when she puts on a different dress. His wife who is the only person in the game with nearly floor length blue hair, who is singing the one song she knows and using water magic, her unique ability which no-one else has. I suppose you would have to be legally retarded to go back to your father who, implicitly and explicitly, attempted to murder you and a crowd of innocents and pin the blame on you just to start a war. Conquest just runs with that retarded element of that decision.
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Apr 6, 2016 06:33
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Birthright it is, then! Thanks for the advice... FFX LP Thread...?
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Apr 6, 2016 07:16
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Rangpur posted:Birthright it is, then! Thanks for the advice... FFX LP Thread...? It's too bad because Conquest is 100x the game Birthright is.
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Apr 6, 2016 07:58
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Please do not let story strength influence which Fire Emblem Fates game you wish to purchase.
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Apr 6, 2016 07:59
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Rangpur posted:Birthright it is, then! Thanks for the advice... FFX LP Thread...? Nooooo Conquest blows away Birthright in terms of being a game.
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Apr 6, 2016 08:26
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If you're looking for a solid story, Fates has no good choice. Spend that $40 on FFX instea- ahahaha okay no, don't.
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Apr 6, 2016 09:05
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chiasaur11 posted:Fates gives us... Corrin. Now, he's slightly less of an idiot in the other two routes, but Conquest Corrin does his level best to win the "Dumbest JRPG protagonist" award. At one point, he can't recognize his (possible) wife when she puts on a different dress. His wife who is the only person in the game with nearly floor length blue hair, who is singing the one song she knows and using water magic, her unique ability which no-one else has. Was it a "Higher brain functions encountered the error: my fiancee is HOT; reeboting consciousness now" situation or is he really that stupid? Also, remind me, Birthright is the one were you go back to the "good"* monarchy while Conquest is the one where you stay with the "evil"* empire, right? *good and evil descriptors assigned only based on standard jRPG cliché characterization of nations, actual morality may vary.
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Apr 6, 2016 09:32
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Omobono posted:Was it a "Higher brain functions encountered the error: my fiancee is HOT; reeboting consciousness now" situation or is he really that stupid? He is Just That Stupid. The game just sometimes hopes you won't notice. And yeah, you have the descriptors right. The really impressive thing is how they manage to have a protagonist of the "butter wouldn't melt in his mouth" school, while having him work for a king who views drop-kicking puppies as "a bit too nuanced". (The trick is having a protagonist who is too stupid to live.)
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Apr 6, 2016 10:12
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It's silly because they have all the materials to make the Conquest plot work. Nohr still has good people in it regardless of King Garon being a psychopath, and the Hoshidans are honestly super super racist. You can work with that. Raising opposition against Garon from within makes a good story. But no we're just going to overlook Rampant Villainy 
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Apr 6, 2016 10:27
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Omobono posted:Was it a "Higher brain functions encountered the error: my fiancee is HOT; reeboting consciousness now" situation or is he really that stupid? To be fair, "Fiancee" is really only if you're heavily pursuing that due to the innate hilarity of being able to grind up to marriage at that point. But Corrin is just stupid, because the plot approaches "How do we make X happen" with "Just have the protagonist be stupid." Keep in mind people do overblow the "Stupidity" of staying with Nohr after Garon tried to kill you, but Corrin's pretty obviously staying mostly for the siblings who actually care for him, and at several points says that he's trying to reform Nohr, which he can't do on the other side stabbing swords. A lot of the rage comes from players of course, not wanting to be in such a passive role. They want an active role, and the obviously evil bad guy is right there. Of course it's completely unreasonable in-game to just say "gently caress it lets kill him!" Because 1. You would have no allies except the aforementioned blue hair girl, in the middle of territory that would instantly become hostile and Insta-Gib would not be an adequate enough example. No the point where everything gets really dumb is when Corrin finds out what's actually going on and that he will have to kill Garon. And Azura's suggestion and plan is "We have to Conquer the good guys to save the good guys." It... has an explanation but it's really a bad plan and there are a hundred other better options. It's only the way it is because, as mentioned, They need to get the game to a certain point, that is, invading the opposite nation to the one you picked, so everyone gets Dunce caps. The worst thing is, like said, Conquest has really nice plot points, they just aren't used well. Garon is such a vicious, vile monster because he's been dead, and just a corpse being puppeted by something elses familiar (Buy the third DLC basically) But we have no context of Garon before his possession besides a few supports that say he was a good dad, and while stern was genuinely very nice. So we can't understand when someone like Xander wants to stand by his father despite his father being an obvious villain. Also the plot has you spend the first half going around and 'putting down' the Nohr Rebellions, so you encounter all these leaderless, scattered factions who all want to overthrow the king. You'd think the plot would be uniting all those rebellions into a full blown resistance and overthrowing your bad-dad. But nope. Gotta invade the good guys so you can fight your siblings because that's what happened on the other route even though it made sense then. Thank god it has a skip cutscene button and is genuinely so loving fun.
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Apr 6, 2016 10:50
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Final Fantasy X - In the Japanese version,
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Apr 6, 2016 11:27
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Fates has some of the worst writing imaginable in a JRPG. It's a shame because the central idea has potential, but the writers weren't at all able to handle it and it got chopped up into three games so the bad decisions only became more noticeable as it went on. Corrin and Azura being quite possibly the worst characters in the game and worst leads in the entire series does not help. chiasaur11 posted:Fire Emblem's kinda interesting for this recently, since Fates and Awakening went in basically the opposite direction. Exactly. Corrin and Azura being sappy idiots is so much more noticeable since their immediate predecessors were so on the ball about things. Captain Oblivious posted:It's silly because they have all the materials to make the Conquest plot work. Nohr still has good people in it regardless of King Garon being a psychopath, and the Hoshidans are honestly super super racist. You can work with that. Raising opposition against Garon from within makes a good story. The game also states that Nohr is suffering from resource scarcity while Hosido has far more than they need, so you have an easy place to start, but no. Adding any depth at all would require making Hosido anything but lily white pure and the game will never allow that. There's a reason people tend to hate Hoshido as a whole in the fanbase.
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Apr 6, 2016 12:21
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Geostomp posted:Fates has some of the worst writing imaginable in a JRPG. It's a shame because the central idea has potential, but the writers weren't at all able to handle it and it got chopped up into three games so the bad decisions only became more noticeable as it went on. Corrin and Azura being quite possibly the worst characters in the game and worst leads in the entire series does not help. I haven't played the game, but I've heard that Treehouse did an absolutely garbage job with the translation and localization so that might be another reason.
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Apr 6, 2016 12:49
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Scintilla posted:I haven't played the game, but I've heard that Treehouse did an absolutely garbage job with the translation and localization so that might be another reason.
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Apr 6, 2016 12:54
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Scintilla posted:I haven't played the game, but I've heard that Treehouse did an absolutely garbage job with the translation and localization so that might be another reason. While they did, not in this particular case. It's more of a case of the character type of Corrin being... I don't have a better example so Kira Yamoto.
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Apr 6, 2016 13:12
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close the thread
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Apr 6, 2016 16:40
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Yeah, we're not having a loving Fire Emblem localization controversy dumpster fire derail. Adios, Final Fantasy X. Thank you for playing! 
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