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The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Hello. Can someone sum up the last 20 pages in ten words or less?

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The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



I see my one true Mafia nemesis is in this game. ##vote The Betrayer while I trundle through a thread in which I'm on page 5 and the game hasn't started.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



First ten pages, most suspicious person IMO is Poison Mushroom for advancing a narrative that involves 2 scum voting each other and fighting on Day 1. That's something that almost never happens in a Mafia game.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Rarity posted:

Fine, I'll just do BK. This is the sum total of his contributions so far:

- Claims town/horde to defend Cpig, I'm not reading much into this cause I did the same thing
- 'Me too' vote on SA
- " I think he is scum because he is spinning his wheels on other people instead of just spinning his own wheels." - I have no idea what BK is saying here. Can you clarify please?
- Aggressive push on Tommunist, not a fan, BK vows to follow up
- BK does follow up and votes! Fair play.
- Switches vote onto TM with reasoning built on assumed alignment. DO NOT LIKE.
- Claims that "[TM's] interactions have been weird and I think you've been pretty slimy", this is not backed up by his earlier posts.

I'm not liking this at all. Would be happy to vote for BK.

If this is the case that got BK lynched it's pretty bad and I'm going to be looking very critically at the people who voted on it without much analysis. This is a post summary case and half of these bullet points are hedged.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



TMMadman posted:

Alright, I'll accept this for now.

Personally, I think PMush is scum. She spent most of D1 saying that Kash and I are scum together because our argument seemed too perfectly staged. Then with 6 hours left to deadline, she unvotes Kash saying she isn't feeling it anymore because she doesn't think two scum would butt heads so long but completely ignores the fact that one of us could still be scum. Her unvote also essentially (and conveniently) makes Kash an unviable target. When asked for other reads she says she stopped looking because she was convinced Kash and I were scum together. To me, it reads like she is either working with Kash or she knows our alignments already.

So I'm going to start there today.

##vote PMush

I like this case and this is my read of the first day.

##unvote ##vote PMush

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



I'm caught up. Happy with my Poison Mushroom vote, my impression up until that Kash vote was that Poison Mushroom was starting to play like a spectator. Then she voted Kash and immediately unvoted after one post, it was the most token effort ever and the kind of thing I have done as scum a lot when I make a case that I don't feel like committing on.

Rarity's case on BK was bad, you know a case isn't very good when you could effectively remove four lines from it. The rest of her play isn't great either, she voted Tommunist citing his four games as evidence for him being newbie scum rather than just a newbie.

I don't think SA is a bad lynch, his posts have fallen off since the early portion of the game, strikes me as scum that wanted to make an impression early but couldn't sustain it.

Those are my major suspicions, I don't like Kashuno on gut but not to the point where I would vote him over anyone I've named.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

I think TMM looks bad in this micro exchange, dismissing a completely valid point from Kash and then distracting away from the comment. Keeping my eye on this.

This is a really frivolous criticism. The conversation TMM "distracted from" wasn't worth having.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

I'm not saying that TMM should have started a conversation about the worthiness of NK analysis. I am saying that what Kashuno essentially said was "You are making a distraction from scumhunting by spending time trying to start a NK analysis discussion," and TMM's response wasn't "yeah, you're right, that is distracting" but rather "gently caress YOU KASHUNO." Why the need to jab at Kash? Nothing had even happened yet.

Do you see why this is making me feel like TMM is working on creating a narrative wherein Kashuno is wishy washy and the bad guy, even from the get go?

You're putting a lot of words into Kash's post that aren't there. And also incredibly exaggerating TMM's response.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

At this point in the thread, TMM has spent nearly a page arguing with Kashuno about how his refusing to take a stand on the scumminess or not scumminess of PMush is terribly scummy and not his normal town game.

While sitting on a PMush vote.

It's like he cased PMush and also thinks Kashuno is scum.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose you're not winning me over with this "TMM is suspicious of two players at the same time" argument.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

His response was dismissive of Kashuno's point. Without the hyperbole of gently caress YOU DAD, do you agree that, when called out for trying to do something distracting, it was odd that he didn't say "yeah you're right I shouldn't go down that path" and instead made a dig at Kashuno for no reason before pulling the conversation where he wanted?

Because you haven't actually mentioned anything about my content in two posts.

He didn't say gently caress you or type in all caps, he said a sarcastic "Thanks Mafia dad" which was appropriate given Kashuno's general comment about the game (which I happen to disagree with).

It seems like your criticism is that TMM thinks night kill speculation is worthwhile.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

If you spend a page looking at someone's content and convincing yourself that they are acting scummily, and you want the thread to agree with you, you should vote for them. I know I am in the minority here potentially but I think it's weird he didn't get to the end of that and vote Kashuno. And I am INCERDIBLY interested in my reread to see if and when he DID vote Kashuno, because if it's when the tide started turning towards him, that is suspicious as gently caress.

If you know you're in a minority about a playstyle opinion, maybe you shouldn't be using it as a justification for why someone is scum. TMM clearly thinks Kash is scum, he also made a great PMush case that I don't see any reason for him to abandon.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

That is not what I am saying at all and I really don't see why you are getting that from what I am saying. I'm gonna break it down again in case I'm not being clear:

1. TMM speculated about NKs.
2. Kashuno said "hey, NK disucssion is probably a bad idea," the implication there with that comment being that he thought TMM was trying to create a distraction. Why else would he have brought it up, just to tell him how to play Mafia better? I don't think most of us do that as a point of order, I think we make comments to gauge reactions.
3. AND SUBSEQUENTLY, TMM's response was a big old eye roll. Why wouldn't he just go "oh yeah I guess that is a distraction" and then move on? Or if he disagreed, why wouldn't he have said "well I think there's value in it but we can do something else" or "agree to disagree" or anything that wasn't A COMPLETELY DISMISSIVE RESPONSE?

You seem to take it for granted that TMM would suddenly have this epiphany that his nightkill speculation was a mistake. I don't see why he would have that epiphany.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

Then if he thought there WAS value in NK speculation, why wouldn't he have said "What's wrong with NK spec?"

Why roll his eyes at Kashuno mafia-dading for no reason and demand the content move in a different direction? How does that follow at all if he didn't have the epiphany?

Because he thought the comment was worthy of an eye-roll. People have different personalities you know. This doesn't make someone scum at all and it's not a particularly good point for you to be breaking down in numbered lists. You're making a mountain out of something you yourself called a micro-exchange.

So far everything I've seen you say about a player has been along the lines of "why did you say X when in my opinion you shouldn't have added X to your post" or "why did you do Y when in my opinion you should have done X instead." It's what your case of FV revolved around (that FV was asking too many questions of people to get them to contribute, instead of just posting some vague "Lurkers are bad!" post and calling it a day) and it's what most of these points against TMM have turned into.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

I'm not saying that TMM should have started a conversation about the worthiness of NK analysis.

Quidnose posted:

Then if he thought there WAS value in NK speculation, why wouldn't he have said "What's wrong with NK spec?"

So you are saying he should have started that conversation, else you wouldn't have said he was "distracting away from it."

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

I'm not saying he should have started a conversation speculating about the night kill, but it would have been reasonable for him to ask why he couldn't do that. Those are two different things.

You can easily dismiss this as different strikes for different folks so I am not sure this is worth engaging with you on anymore.

What he posted was reasonable too.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

It's almost as if I am reading into intent in regards to how people are phrasing things to see if they are purposefully being misleading is disingenuous!

Is it purposefully misleading or disingenuous for you to characterize TMM's post as gently caress YOU DAD or was that just an accident?

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

Cool.

Please explain to me now what this engagement you have been pushing between the two of us has gained the thread in terms of content.

It helps me figure out whether your opinions are genuine or just a bunch of overblown bullshit (guess which way I'm leaning). It adds content to a game in which the 20-page summary I got was "people are lurking." It keeps your opinions from gaining traction if people agree with me. It's a conversation that can be analyzed in light of later flips. Maybe it changes peoples' opinions of you, me, or TMMadman after they read it.

You were upset with TMM for distracting from a conversation and now you seem upset with me for participating in one. There's just no satisfying some people.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

I don't buy it.

Calling TNL as a 3p of some kind.

Back to my reread.

Now that you've dismissed my point outright it looks like we've come full circle.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



The point TMM was making was that PMush was suspicious of both players and suddenly is suspicious of neither of them. He's right that PMush doesn't consider whether one of them individually would be scum. She just goes from "you guys are scum contriving an argument to distance each other" to "neither of you are scum because you're still arguing with each other." He's right in that she doesn't stop to consider whether one or the other might be scum, she writes them both off from being scum at the same time.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



PMush's suspicion depended on both Kash and TMM being scum together so the distinction that she said "either" instead of "both" is meaningless, her argument was the same as if she had said "both" in that post.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

She probably has considered it because she essentially says "The only way I could see you guys still doing this poo poo is if you are both town." That means she probably stopped at some point and said "is maybe one of them scum? No, I don't think so, because if one of them were scum I think that person would have hopped off this already. Let me present my final result."

I mean I can't for sure say that's what she did but I don't think everyone needs to present their play by play thought process in the way that I do and to say this makes her scummy when you could just as easily say "she probably thought about it came to a conclusion and then posted said conclusion" is kind of ridiculous.

Her suspicion of them was entirely that they were both scum together. Every one of her posts about them says as much.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



MEDS CURE SCHIZOS posted:

That's just bad play and/or being dumb.

Also, Ninth is still scum by virtue of replacing scum. Sorry, Ninthy buddy, but you still have to die.

I'm 100% not worried about dying this game so do what you think you have to do.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

Oh, so you are an expert on PMush's thought process on this, to the point that you can tell me what she was thinking at the time outside of what she has posted in the thread?

Can I have the link to the scumdoc where she explains, then?

I can read her post history. Look at her posts about both players, she calls each one scum by bringing up the connection to the other.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

TNL, why are you white knighting TMM so hard?

I think your points against him are bad and nitpicky. Why are you pushing him so hard, when you're not voting him? Isn't this kind of hypocritical considering you were calling him out for a similar thing?

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Not that I know of but I haven't gotten my full PM yet.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



If you investigated me as scum, you got a bunk result.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

Nope, I do not read this as what she did. I believe she said "either" and not "both" because she had reread what they were doing and made a judgement call that said "if I either of them were scum, I don't think they would be still doing this, I think, as scum, they would have dropped it."

Which is, you know.

What she said.

She went from suspicious of both of them to suspicious of neither of them. Regardless of the language she used, TMM's point still stands: there was no consideration of one of them being scum independent from the other.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

Actually, ##unvote


3p who can only be NKed is my call.

I'm not third-party either. Town town town. I will say that my role is so ridiculously powerful that I've never gotten a role on its level before, to the point where I must wonder what scum got to compensate.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose voting me after pushing TMM for two pages is pretty ironic, considering he called TMM out for pushing Kashuno without voting him.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



MEDS CURE SCHIZOS posted:

If you're softclaiming Thrall, I hope to god there's a dayvig. For Seebach.

I'm not Thrall.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Kashuno posted:

Ahaha holy poo poo if you are such a strong role why would you put yourself out here like this?

Because I know it won't matter.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Kashuno posted:

I don't get this. You're soft claiming a super strong role and painting a huge target on yourself with basically no votes on you. That doesn't seem like town play at all

I'm The Ninth Layer, I don't need a strong role to have a target on my back.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



I'm sure I'm not the only one with a crazy-strong role either. At least I feel comfortable claiming it. Scum has a janitor which is also a very strong role and who knows what else. Probably good to have that out in the open.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

##vote TNL

This vote is still unexplained and hilariously reactionary.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose's case can be summed up as "TMM didn't vote who I think he should have" which is a very weak case for all the quotes he needed to rely on to make it.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



MEDS CURE SCHIZOS posted:

I think in our race to show off who has the biggest Mafia ego penis, we're ignoring that I investigated Tommunist ne้ Ninth Layer as scum.

I want to reemphasize that point.

I'll flip town.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

Because PMush's content has been based in actual reads with content in the thread which have consistant internal logic, whereas you are all over the place and TNL seems to be doing whatever he can to make sure everyone talks about absolutely nothing while he offers zero hard opinions.

Which makes me suspicious of you and him and not suspicious of PMush.

I have backed my opinions up with content analysis. Can you show me where, beyond TNL's summary post of why I am "spewing bullshit," he's analyzed and interpreted content, rather than purely basing all of his bullshit calls on me in semantic nuance that have nothing to do with my presenting my content disingenuously?

One of the first things I did in this thread was catch up and offer hard opinions lol.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



Quidnose posted:

You read my entire case in the minute it took me to respond to TMM? You are an amazing reader.

I mean, someone had to sum up that long post because you sure as hell weren't going to.

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The Ninth Layer
Jun 19, 2007



MEDS CURE SCHIZOS posted:

Man, I'm not trying to convince you that you're scum, that's a fake idea.

I realize that. I'm trying to convince you that I'll flip town.

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