Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012


Panic! at Nabisco posted:

I'm not sure what you mean. This was a very traditional "poo poo is happening, here we present all the mysteries that will be solved through the rest of the series" episode. They're setting up the rules that the mystery will play by, including a very explicit closed room.

I haven't read the novel or seen the drama so I can't say for sure, but my money's on Magata having been dead for a lot longer than a day.

Unless they explain all the theatrics with Magata's makeup-ed body in a wedding dress being on the Pi and doing pirouetteswhile the lights flashed ominously after all the doors open of their own accord, none of that ending makes much sense at all.

But other than that, I think the episode shouldn't have spent so much time on the side characters. It didn't bother to develop them or make them mechanically a part of the story. Also, beyond what we learned in the first episode, Nishinosono's motivations aren't very clear. All of those parallels with Magata are just thrown out there with no context, as if the only point was to leave you totally confused. It does develop Magata somewhat, so it wasn't a total waste of time.

It sort of feels like they're trying to rush some elements of the story instead of drip-feeding us information as we go along.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

krnhotwings
May 7, 2009


Grimey Drawer

I was pretty annoyed when they were trying to get the AI to stop the cart from moving. Why did they move aside to let the thing go right past them? Why couldn't they physically just go and knock it over? Am I just loving missing something from that scene?

AnoHito
May 8, 2014



ViggyNash posted:

The side characters, mainly the other students, are all very flat so far.

That's kind of a standard thing with mysteries. It's more convenient for the audience if the side characters are a bunch of flat stereotypes so that they can focus more on the mystery itself.

StrixNebulosa
Feb 14, 2012

You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA



krnhotwings posted:

I was pretty annoyed when they were trying to get the AI to stop the cart from moving. Why did they move aside to let the thing go right past them? Why couldn't they physically just go and knock it over? Am I just loving missing something from that scene?

I think that they were just so shocked by a ghost/cart coming at them that their reflexes were terrible, but after they recovered enough to order the AI to stop it, yeah, no excuse. Those security guards at the very least should've gone to grab it.

AnoHito
May 8, 2014



I guess on the off chance it might be a corpse, you might be too creeped out to want to touch it or something, but it's still stupid as hell.

Also I second the OP and ED kicking rear end

Armor-Piercing
Sep 22, 2009

Nightly dance
of bleeding swords




We'll probably get some excuses from the characters in the next episode, but my feeling was that they're all pretty divorced from reality and making any effort beyond doing their research (that guy didn't even get the aspirin himself, he had a robo-cart deliver it), so the idea of taking any personal action beyond the usual "tell the computer to do it" isn't part of their normal response. The security guard, too - he said the door hadn't been opened in something like twelve years, right? If he's been on that island the whole time too, his inaction is a little more understandable.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Or I guess the fact that none of them acted might turn out to be a plot point later.

Kytrarewn
Jul 15, 2011

Solving mysteries in
Bb, F and D.


StrixNebulosa posted:

I think that they were just so shocked by a ghost/cart coming at them that their reflexes were terrible, but after they recovered enough to order the AI to stop it, yeah, no excuse. Those security guards at the very least should've gone to grab it.

They're dealing with a crazy genius whose every whim needs to be satisfied, lest she stop working for them and sink their entire laboratory.

She decides she wants to ride the cart around in a wedding dress... "well, she's the genius" is probably a perfectly acceptable answer.

That, and, as mentioned, they're used to letting their AI overlord handle most things.

Chas McGill
Oct 29, 2010


Even if this show turns to poo poo, I may still watch it for the character designs and the OP/ED.

Hidingo Kojimba
Mar 29, 2010



Davincie posted:

here's theory 2. moe is the imouto of magata

Kind of hope I'm wrong on this one cause skeez, but given they're introducing the idea Magata had an affair with her tutor (that's Moe's father right?) when she was 13 there's the possibility her sister is actually her daughter. Probably wouldn't be Moe in that case though cause I don't think the ages match up. (Magata's 29 now I think? Pretty sure it was said in the last episode.) Just setting off my foreshadowing senses as they did this and 15-16 years ago is about the right length of time for such a character to be a part of a murder mystery story.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


My theory right now is that some kind of switcharoo took place and our 'Magata' is in fact Magata's sister all along. This would connect to Moe observing that she looked young for her age, and to her being flustered at Moe's "who are you" question. Or maybe we are in a The Prestige sort of situation.

Davincie
Jul 7, 2008

Wiggle to the right
Wiggle to the left
Wiggle to the post that's best


Hidingo Kojimba posted:

Kind of hope I'm wrong on this one cause skeez, but given they're introducing the idea Magata had an affair with her tutor (that's Moe's father right?) when she was 13 there's the possibility her sister is actually her daughter. Probably wouldn't be Moe in that case though cause I don't think the ages match up. (Magata's 29 now I think? Pretty sure it was said in the last episode.) Just setting off my foreshadowing senses as they did this and 15-16 years ago is about the right length of time for such a character to be a part of a murder mystery story.

nah no way, moe is in college and like 19. plus her parents are dead and so are magata's. i think we're supposed to take the narrative voice as telling it to someone in the present as well. the tension was definitely there, uncomfortable and on purpose though

devtesla
Jan 2, 2012




Grimey Drawer

StrixNebulosa posted:

I think that they were just so shocked by a ghost/cart coming at them that their reflexes were terrible, but after they recovered enough to order the AI to stop it, yeah, no excuse. Those security guards at the very least should've gone to grab it.

I think the security guard was too scared to touch Shiki, he's the dude who was all "you know she's a serial killer" when they tried to open Shiki's door. And remember the part of Shiki and Moe's conversation they played in this episode, about how in the future everyone will talk on video phones only and a handshake will be a rare occurrence? People don't touch each other in this setting, even in a life or death situation.

Even forgetting all that though, everyone being too shocked to do the right thing in that situation isn't that weird.That what they did do probably made things worse and fits with the themes of the show? Even better.

I really really liked that scene. Considering the type of show this is I didn't expect the becomes F moment to be a creepy thing comes at you down a dark hallway, but they weren't cheap about it. The lead up was perfect, there's a lot of stuff to build on symbolically (it's definitely important that they thought she was a doll at first) and they didn't just cut to credits, we actually got a way more terrifying scene afterwards. So so good.

ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012


I guess I was supposed to be terrifying, but it came off as silly to me. I don't think the theatrics had the impact they wanted it to, at least for me and some other people. It just could have been presented better.

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


The Devil Tesla posted:

People don't touch each other in this setting, even in a life or death situation.
Touching freshly dead things or things associated with death has historically had very bad connotations in Japanese culture. If your great-great grandpa was a tanner or an undertaker, well, you'd best keep your family registry tightly under wraps and not talk about what quarter of the city they lived in.

dogsicle
Oct 23, 2012



the actual trying-to-be-spooky part of the episode was okay, but i think the lead-up already gave an unsettling enough atmosphere. everything about the lab is very sterile and isolated. when they ask somebody to bring medicine, it's instead delivered down a dark hallway by a robotic cart, and not only the lab but the entire island is established as the "closed room."

Magata's strange behavior at 13 and the AI speculation in the thread also contribute uneasiness.

ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012


dogsicle posted:

the actual trying-to-be-spooky part of the episode was okay, but i think the lead-up already gave an unsettling enough atmosphere. everything about the lab is very sterile and isolated. when they ask somebody to bring medicine, it's instead delivered down a dark hallway by a robotic cart, and not only the lab but the entire island is established as the "closed room."

This is one aspect of the episode I really liked. The whole facility has a sense of not really being alive, let along feeling sterile, and the scale of the way they draw the ocean and the city in the distance really sells a sense of isolation.

Gyra_Solune
Apr 24, 2014

Kyun kyun
Kyun kyun
Watashi no kare wa louse


oh and here i was thinking the thing on top of the cart was some sort of robotic doppelganger and she was just screwing with everyone

or

or maybe

MAYBE THE CART WAS THE MURDERER ALL ALONG

devtesla
Jan 2, 2012




Grimey Drawer

I'll never look at carts the same way again.

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?



I think my favourite part was the sterile, Andromeda Strain-esque atmosphere of the lab.

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?



Wasn't expecting the death count to rack up that quickly. Also the ending

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Subete 3

So as I suspected, this is a much more traditional murder mystery than it seemed at first. We have the couple of protagonists playing detective, a seemingly impossible murder (closed room case!), and a new death of a key character who maybe had a hand in the first murder.

Mmm I'm remember a Detective Conan arc that had some parallels with this...

Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Oct 23, 2015

Cao Ni Ma
May 25, 2010


Well that was a thing. So they are emphasizing the closed room aspect of Magata's room. In a sense, the OS is also a closed system that is incorruptible so we are told to believe that no outside forces could have tampered with it. This is all pointing at Magata herself right now and a lot of what she was asking to Moe in the interview and what Moe's dad was narrating at the end sort of builds the foundation of her motive.

Davincie
Jul 7, 2008

Wiggle to the right
Wiggle to the left
Wiggle to the post that's best


the perfect insider? more like the perv inside her!

ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012


A whole of of speculation and basic investigation from the characters, along with a bunch of setup. I really like the presentation of the whole thing, and the editing, especially for the flashback scenes, is really good. There's nothing definitive to say at this point since we're still not in the thick of things, but my primary suspect is Yamane. Everyone else seems calm compared to him. Somehow his demeanor just doesn't feel totally genuine. Also, he has full access to Red Magic. That's all super tentative though.

Also that ending was pretty despite what we'd been shown of her relationship to her uncle in episode 2.

Allarion
May 16, 2009

がんばルビ!


Turin Turambar posted:

Subete 3

So as I suspected, this is a much more traditional murder mystery than it seemed at first. We have the couple of protagonists playing detective, a seemingly impossible murder (closed room case!), and a new death of a key character who maybe had a hand in the first murder.

Mmm I'm remember a Detective Conan arc that had some parallels this this...

My main worry is that the story is old enough that its mystery has been copied into other stories that its formula is now known to us through cultural osmosis. Still, I'm liking the dynamic between our detective duo and how they both seem to have their own angle on the case. Also curious to see what buildup of the relationship between Magata and Moe is leading toward.

Myriad Truths
Oct 13, 2012


It seems almost trivially easy that Magata's sister killed the director before landing the helicopter, so I'm interested in where that will go. As for our main murder, it certainly seems like Magata was never in the room as was believed. My immediate thought was that her corpse was in the room for 15 years, but clearly it would be completely unrecognizable without being heavily preserved. And I just don't see how the corpse could be brought out of the room without someone inside it to prepare it directly. Still not sure about that.

This show seems great, though, particularly in how well it's establishing atmosphere, and I'm in love with both the OP and ED from a visual perspective.

Cao Ni Ma
May 25, 2010


Myriad Truths posted:

It seems almost trivially easy that Magata's sister killed the director before landing the helicopter,

No because the sister was escorted to the building and was being taken cared of by the directors wife. He was supposed to fly out immediately after talking to Moe but somehow someone got him.

ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012


Myriad Truths posted:

It seems almost trivially easy that Magata's sister killed the director before landing the helicopter

Myriad Truths posted:

There's no proof that he was ever alive by the time he reached the island


Yes, because dead men can give thumbs ups.

ViggyNash fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Oct 23, 2015

Myriad Truths
Oct 13, 2012


Cao Ni Ma posted:

No because the sister was escorted to the building and was being taken cared of by the directors wife. He was supposed to fly out immediately after talking to Moe but somehow someone got him.

There's no proof that he was ever alive by the time he reached the island. We only got obscured images of his features and there was no communication. It would be trivial for the sister to have simply left a corpse in the copter.

Although realistically anyone could have done it afterward. It's just that it's very clear that his status can't be confirmed at any point during the helicopter ride.


ViggyNash posted:

Yes, because dead men can give thumbs ups.



Absolutely they can. A corpse doesn't have much say in what somebody might do with the body afterward.

ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012


Myriad Truths posted:

Absolutely they can. A corpse doesn't have much say in what somebody might do with the body afterward.

Oh of course. She was totally pupeteering his hand using her world class puppeteer skills. Good job, buddy!

Myriad Truths
Oct 13, 2012


Well, yes, that is the most plausible solution. Not sure how you could draw any other conclusion from that image, really.

EDIT: Actually no, I just rewatched the scene and he gave the thumbs up twice, once after the sister left the copter. So this requires there be a third person in there. The framing of the scene is still hella suspicious though. No one can see anything except a small region of his body and other than the thumbs up he doesn't react in any way to what he's told.

Myriad Truths fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Oct 23, 2015

devtesla
Jan 2, 2012




Grimey Drawer

This is not weekend at bernies, come on.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007


The Devil Tesla posted:

This is not weekend at bernies, come on.

If not, it should be. Most murder mysteries would be improved by that premise.

Phlogistic
Oct 22, 2007



Myriad Truths posted:

Well, yes, that is the most plausible solution. Not sure how you could draw any other conclusion from that image, really.

EDIT: Actually no, I just rewatched the scene and he gave the thumbs up twice, once after the sister left the copter. So this requires there be a third person in there. The framing of the scene is still hella suspicious though. No one can see anything except a small region of his body and other than the thumbs up he doesn't react in any way to what he's told.

Not quite true, his face and eyes do seem to follow Nishinosono and look directly at her, and his facial expression changes slightly when he gives her the thumbs up. I do agree that that scene is sketchy as hell, but outside of some severe bullshit I'd say corpse puppetry probably isn't the answer.

That's not to say that he was definitely alive when the helicopter landed, or even took off, with what we know at this point. For example, the 'director' who landed the helicopter could have been a fake, with the darkness helping to conceal the differences.

Edit: Alternatively, he was alive but being threatened when he landed - you can see what looks like sweat on his face.

Phlogistic fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Oct 23, 2015

devtesla
Jan 2, 2012




Grimey Drawer

This show is setting up a locked room murder that took fifteen years to execute, you're not gonna have anything figured out one episode after the body was found.

But yea, I like this show so much you guys. I want next week's episode right now.

Admoon
Oct 29, 2009



The Devil Tesla posted:

But yea, I like this show so much you guys. I want next week's episode right now.

yeah same, I really like the 2 main characters too so it's fun seeing it unfold with them

Panic! at Nabisco
Jun 6, 2007

it seemed like a good idea at the time


The Devil Tesla posted:

This show is setting up a locked room murder that took fifteen years to execute, you're not gonna have anything figured out one episode after the body was found.
On the contrary, this is very much a classical mystery, so we probably have enough information to solve at least part of several of the mysteries already. They have been bombarding us with relevant information this episode. It's unlikely that, for example, the mail slot and its exact dimensions are just there for Nishinosono to amaze with her mental math.

halleys comet
Feb 29, 2012


What role does the marimba play in all this

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Kytrarewn
Jul 15, 2011

Solving mysteries in
Bb, F and D.


Speculation:
Director's wife is the murderer.
She was upset that director was loving the 13 year old genius, and so used hubby's credentials to program the system to murder her, and then when all went according to plan, murdered hubby as well.
Alternately: Director murdered Magata through the computer system to keep his secret from getting out, possibly triggering when a group larger than X people were on the island, and then wife figured it out and murdered hubby

Not original by any means, but the best I have at present.

  • Locked thread