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gourdcaptain
Nov 16, 2012



Omnicrom posted:

Then you may appreciate Super Robot Wars Z where Guin shows up ultra late in the game with an army of "Black Dolls" (Psycho Gundams, Destroy Gundams, and Overdevils from Overman King Gainer), but he never actually pilots any of them.

That does sound better. Points (although not required) if none of them listen to him for more than five seconds and start doing destructive stupid crap, this is a guy mostly associated with with the Milita (who can barely maintain internal order at the best of times) and the Ghingham faction (who genuinely don't give a crap what he has to say and all their own ideas are 90% pure destruction.)

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Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012

I came here to laugh at you





Ads are getting smarter!



gourdcaptain posted:

That does sound better. Points (although not required) if none of them listen to him for more than five seconds and start doing destructive stupid crap, this is a guy mostly associated with with the Milita (who can barely maintain internal order at the best of times) and the Ghingham faction (who genuinely don't give a crap what he has to say and all their own ideas are 90% pure destruction.)

Guin is amusing because at the start he does seem like he is "in control" and the genuine leader guy, but as the show goes on it becomes increasingly clear that this is not actually true (which Lily delights in pointing out).

gourdcaptain
Nov 16, 2012



Warmachine posted:

Guin is amusing because at the start he does seem like he is "in control" and the genuine leader guy, but as the show goes on it becomes increasingly clear that this is not actually true (which Lily delights in pointing out).

Look I'm sure once he mass-produces the Turn A this will all work out. (Seriously just... the worst possible idea. If he could even do it.)

In retrospect "champion of industry and technology funding a milita" is the shadiest possible thing.

HitTheTargets
Mar 3, 2006

I came here to laugh at you.


Ramadu posted:

theres an entire episode about a lake on earth moving 500 mile and they need this lake to get salt


what in the gently caress??? is this britain occupied india

There’s a lot of occupation stuff in Gundam, on account of that being the chief economic reason for war throughout human history. But this is just them having fun with geology.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012

I came here to laugh at you





gourdcaptain posted:

Look I'm sure once he mass-produces the Turn A this will all work out. (Seriously just... the worst possible idea. If he could even do it.)

In retrospect "champion of industry and technology funding a milita" is the shadiest possible thing.

He won't be doing it in 1920, that's for sure. I felt he was already wildly optimistic about mass producing Kapools and Borjarnon.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


Ramadu posted:

theres an entire episode about a lake on earth moving 500 mile and they need this lake to get salt


what in the gently caress??? is this britain occupied india

Classifying it as an entire episode is stretching things a bit. It's a b-plot that takes up 2 minutes or so of screen-time in total, and there's far more focus on Sayla in that episode if I recall it correctly. It being the one where she steals the Gundam to try and speak to Ral about her brother.

Warmachine posted:

He won't be doing it in 1920, that's for sure. I felt he was already wildly optimistic about mass producing Kapools and Borjarnon.

He wasn't trying to do it alone. He wanted Dianna's assistance to mass produce that technology, and when it became obvious with the Black History stuff that she'd never help him produce weapons, he instead turned to Gym. Which was coincidentally just as Gym was reaching his breaking point with Dianna, since she had just demanded he hand over the Turn X out of fear of what he'd do with it, given his general disposition. Guin convinces Gym to ally with him against Dianna, with the hope that Gym instead would help him mass produce the Turn A. It's never clear what Guin is offering Gym, though it's presumably some help with people on Earth diplomatically; as soon as Gym gets down to Earth though, he starts to use military means to conquer territory in a way that bypasses any need for someone like Guin. Who found it impossible to control Gym. Gym eventually decides that he's just going to destroy the Turn A instead of capture it, and screw Guin's desire to study and mass produce it.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012



why are kamilles parents so bad at staying alive

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Stairmaster posted:

why are kamilles parents so bad at staying alive

Look, Kamille's response to being abused and imprisoned by fascist space cops is to steal a Gundam and go stomping around. He also repeatedly spares enemy pilots, even when they've tried to kill him in the past.

Those kind of poor survival instincts couldn't come from training under Char and Bright. That stuff's genetic.

MizPiz
May 29, 2013

I have defended, and will continue to defend genocide

chiasaur11 posted:

Look, Kamille's response to being abused and imprisoned by fascist space cops is to steal a Gundam and go stomping around. He also repeatedly spares enemy pilots, even when they've tried to kill him in the past.

Those kind of poor survival instincts couldn't come from training under Char and Bright. That stuff's genetic.

Are you implying this is somehow the wrong response?

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



MizPiz posted:

Are you implying this is somehow the wrong response?

I am implying it's a response that doesn't usually result in a long life. That doesn't mean it's the wrong decision, but it isn't one that usually end as well as it did for Kamille.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007

Ask me about the hate crime perpetrated against a gay black man, and how it was a real hate crime and totally not fabricated. I am well acquainted with the facts of this actual hate crime which actually took place in actuality.

if aeug hadn't picked him up kamille would have died shortly after stealing the mk2.

The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!


I dunno who has it worse Kamille or Uso on the very dead parents scale.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007

Ask me about the hate crime perpetrated against a gay black man, and how it was a real hate crime and totally not fabricated. I am well acquainted with the facts of this actual hate crime which actually took place in actuality.

prior to mikazuki, uso had a worse everything than anyone.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


gimme the GOD drat candy posted:

prior to mikazuki, uso had a worse everything than anyone.

Setsuna had a rougher start than Uso. I'd say killing your parents for a religious extremist who only wanted to indoctrinate you as a child soldier and who you later realized was a fraud might even be a rougher start than Mikazuki. Though he definitely had a better end.

Prior to Mikazuki, Setsuna was the most emotionally traumatized protagonist too. The fact he held a lifetime aversion to physical contact with others, and was incapable of romantic love even a decade later puts him in a worse spot than Mika in some regards too; even if Mika was certainly worse off in general.

tsob fucked around with this message at 06:44 on May 20, 2020

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



tsob posted:

Setsuna had a rougher start than Uso. I'd say killing your parents for a religious extremist you later realized was a fraud might even be a rougher start than Mikazuki, even if he definitely had a better end.

We don't really know how Mikazuki started, beyond that he felt being a child soldier under Orga's command was a major step up. The parent thing is kind of a question if no parents is better than parents you killed, which... open to varying viewpoints.

I'd say the worst childhood for a Gundam pilot gold medal probably goes to McGillis. And his idolization of Gundams doesn't go nearly as happily as Setsuna's.

(The one area where Mika's life looks better than most Gundam pilots is dead love interests. Atra and Kudelia really came out of things alright.)

Ramadu
Aug 25, 2004

2015 NFL MVP



dang ryu

also lol the guntank is like stronger than all of Americas military at once

Droyer
Oct 9, 2012



Ramadu posted:

dang ryu

also lol the guntank is like stronger than all of Americas military at once

I don't think I could find it now but there was a tweet where someone had mapped out the guntank's range according to its tech specs and it was ridiculously huge.

The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!


Mikazuki unlike many other protags doesn't really connect his life with it being awful though, he is so blase about his work and his role in the world that while it seems awful to us I think it seems not as awful to him. Where as Kamille thinks everyone sucks and his life is poo poo, Uso just gets poo poo on all the time and wants TO GO BACK TO KASARELLIA, both of them actively wish their lives weren't total crap. I feel like while Mikazuki wants a better life for Tekkadan it's really only because of the vision Orga has that carries him there, otherwise I think he would have just gone along with whatever came without giving it much emotional thought.

Objectively he has it bad, but I don't think he perceives it as the worst in ways other Gundam protags do. The dude actively enjoys piloting the Barbatos and crushing every enemy in front of him, it's not a quandry or topic of trauma for him like other Gundam protags.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009


To be fair, Mika is not a normal, functioning individual.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


I doubt Mikazuki would be so invested in Orga's dream if he wasn't at least partially aware of how poo poo life is for those around him and wanted to improve things a bit. The one time Orga starts to falter on it in season one, Mikazuki is the one to push him back towards that path in a very intense manner.

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

THERE'S FASCISM IN MY GIANT ROBOT ANIMES


Droyer posted:

I don't think I could find it now but there was a tweet where someone had mapped out the guntank's range according to its tech specs and it was ridiculously huge.

“Tank” is kind of a misnomer really, the guntank is more of a mobile artillery platform with arms

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007

Ask me about the hate crime perpetrated against a gay black man, and how it was a real hate crime and totally not fabricated. I am well acquainted with the facts of this actual hate crime which actually took place in actuality.

even the treads make sense, as there's no way for it to fire such enormous cannons and stay on two feet. they are artillery, not beam guns. it only gets silly and pointless in space.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Mila is absolutely aware of now so poo poo his life was. He just didn't think he had any way to improve it. Consider his last words

MechaX
Nov 19, 2011

"Let's be positive! Let's start a fire!"


Droyer posted:

I don't think I could find it now but there was a tweet where someone had mapped out the guntank's range according to its tech specs and it was ridiculously huge.

I’ve played Zeonic Front.

The Guntank is probably more dangerous than the Gundam because at least you can see the Gundam before you get blasted rather than massive artillery crashing into your face fired from the unseen distance by the Guntank

Ethiser
Dec 31, 2011



Guntank was my favorite suit in Federation vs. Zeno. Those cannons packed a punch.

The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!


ImpAtom posted:

Mila is absolutely aware of now so poo poo his life was. He just didn't think he had any way to improve it. Consider his last words

Aware, but not consumed by it in the same way some other protags are imo.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012



MechaX posted:

I’ve played Zeonic Front.

The Guntank is probably more dangerous than the Gundam because at least you can see the Gundam before you get blasted rather than massive artillery crashing into your face fired from the unseen distance by the Guntank

minovosky particles were a mistake

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



The Notorious ZSB posted:

Aware, but not consumed by it in the same way some other protags are imo.

I don't agree.

Mika is consumed by his desire for a better life but he has no idea how to actually get there and keeps going all-in on wrong choices because he trusts Orga to get him there. Orga doesn't entirely get Mika and thinks he is obligated to give Mika excitement and a grand goal to go towards while Mika shows both earlier on and in his last moments that really all he wanted as a nice farm and people he cared about. The big tragedy is that he didn't realize that dream was already in his grasp until it was too late.

That's the most interesting thing about Mika and Orga's relationship. They are as close as they can be and yet they fundamentally misunderstand each other. Orga feels like Tekkadan has to be something incredible and amazing and reaches for it because he thinks it may be the only way they can find real happiness free from exploitation. He thinks his friends and family want to be Kings of Mars and he feels obligated to try for it, both to not devalue the sacrifices that came before and because he feels a pressure to do so. (Embodied in some way by Mika.)

Mika just wants a life, a place he belonged and he wholeheartedly believe that Orga will get him there. And the sad part is that Orga did and then Orga kept reaching because he thought that was what was expected of him or that it was his only choice. It is why when Mika is dying he realizes "Oh... we'd already gotten there." Mika spent his entire life dedicated to trying to make a place for himself and his loved ones to belong, no matter the cost. It is what drove him until the very last moment where the poor boy realized at long last that he'd gotten what he wanted all along.

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012



I mean, like the vast majority of sci-fi tech specs, they're literal nonsense written by people who have no idea what they're talking about. Like, even setting aside HOW it manages to get over 250km range with the cannons, what would even be the point given the Minovsky flooded battlefields? You could just randomly bombard an area in that vague vicinity I guess, but that makes little sense as a military weapon - or even a terror one.

Or, for a clearer example, the Guntank's power plant has actual tech specs, and it has a listed weight and speed as well. The relationship between these makes zero sense - not in a "well, sci fi materials make up for it" sense, but in a "this makes no sense in terms of physics no matter how you cut it" one. You've got an engine that produces significantly less power than even modern day tank engines, for a design that's much heavier and a far worse design in terms of airflow, and it somehow goes faster?

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

THERE'S FASCISM IN MY GIANT ROBOT ANIMES


I mean, modern rocket-assisted artillery can go 50 miles with reasonably good accuracy, and artillery isn’t exactly the favored recipient of R&D dollarydoos these days, so presumably however many decades/centuries of development UC has on us could entirely reasonably reach out 250km,minovsky interferences notwithstanding.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012


Ethiser posted:

Guntank was my favorite suit in Federation vs. Zeno. Those cannons packed a punch.

The z'gok and the guncannon are both incredibly beastly in that game in the zeon side

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012



I might have emphasized the "how" too much, but I am aware of artillery boosters such as rocket assisted shells which is why I mostly just bypassed that point. The modern experimental systems can range far higher than 50 miles, after all.

I just was looking purely at the range in that point, and how it's absurd in regards to Minovsky interference. Because at the kind of ranges listed you need a LOT more information than you can just get in the local area, and the interference cuts out virtually any realistic moment-to-moment BVR communication. Unless your idea of a great strategy is "land shells somewhere within 30 miles of the target with a rather light round."

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012



realistically tactical nuclear weapons should be abundant in the post minovsky world.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Stairmaster posted:

realistically tactical nuclear weapons should be abundant in the post minovsky world.

They are but it's one of those situations where they agreed not to use them because the fallout (lol) would be too great. Even then you get occasional breaches but a nuke isn't that super effective for the kind of combat the OYW has. It's either too small-scale or they have something like a colony laser or a solar ray which probably is better than a nuke at destroying fleets.

Honestly there isn't much a nuke can do that both sides can't reliably do anyway including war crimes unless you are aiming for rendering the Earth uninhabitable. (And even then you basically have Char who wanted the Earth to heal and recover and Croux who was a crazy bastard who attempted to nuke Earth.)

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.



Stairmaster posted:

realistically tactical nuclear weapons should be abundant in the post minovsky world.
In space, probably, but in space they also wouldn't be that dramatic. I also imagine there was probably some cultural flinch on the part of the creators away from using them. Weren't the "reflex" weapons in Macross meant to be mini-nukes?

e: clarified who it was who didn't want nukes

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


The reaction missiles were originally meant to be nuclear weapons apparently, yeah. They morphed in to being a substitute for anti-matter weapons at some point over the years too, I think. Mind you, if Minovsky reactors create a clean nuclear reaction, then shouldn't they be able to create nuclear missiles that have no fallout?

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



tsob posted:

The reaction missiles were originally meant to be nuclear weapons apparently, yeah. They morphed in to being a substitute for anti-matter weapons at some point over the years too, I think. Mind you, if Minovsky reactors create a clean nuclear reaction, then shouldn't they be able to create nuclear missiles that have no fallout?

Probably, considering how some of the nukings in Gundam have gone.

The One Year War handling of nukes is actually pretty clever. They were used extensively in the first week of the war... then everyone looked at the death count and quietly added them to the "do not use" pile alongside colony drops.

And then various parties made plans around nukes anyway, because Zeon is a bunch of space assholes.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


...Why is the Core Change armor with the melee weapons the Saturn(ix) set and not the one with AN ACTUAL ORBITAL RING?

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.



tsob posted:

The reaction missiles were originally meant to be nuclear weapons apparently, yeah. They morphed in to being a substitute for anti-matter weapons at some point over the years too, I think. Mind you, if Minovsky reactors create a clean nuclear reaction, then shouldn't they be able to create nuclear missiles that have no fallout?
It is entirely possible to make a nuclear weapon that doesn't leave a ton of fallout, especially if you use it in space. (Indeed what makes the fallout is usually the irradiation of soil and dirt etc. rather than stuff intrinsic to the weapon.) However, from a dramatic perspective, if you've created a nuclear weapon that leaves no long-term traces or lingering damage, at least not enough to be dramatically consequential... why not call it something other than "a nuclear weapon"

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Midjack
Dec 24, 2007






Biscuit Hider

tsob posted:

Mind you, if Minovsky reactors create a clean nuclear reaction, then shouldn't they be able to create nuclear missiles that have no fallout?

If you have “clean” nuclear weapons you just have efficient conventional explosives. Part of the point of including nuclear weapons in a story is because you want to talk about radiation, fallout, cancer, and other nasty effects.

Edit: ^^^^^

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