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The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!


ImpAtom posted:

I don't agree.

Mika is consumed by his desire for a better life but he has no idea how to actually get there and keeps going all-in on wrong choices because he trusts Orga to get him there. Orga doesn't entirely get Mika and thinks he is obligated to give Mika excitement and a grand goal to go towards while Mika shows both earlier on and in his last moments that really all he wanted as a nice farm and people he cared about. The big tragedy is that he didn't realize that dream was already in his grasp until it was too late.

That's the most interesting thing about Mika and Orga's relationship. They are as close as they can be and yet they fundamentally misunderstand each other. Orga feels like Tekkadan has to be something incredible and amazing and reaches for it because he thinks it may be the only way they can find real happiness free from exploitation. He thinks his friends and family want to be Kings of Mars and he feels obligated to try for it, both to not devalue the sacrifices that came before and because he feels a pressure to do so. (Embodied in some way by Mika.)

Mika just wants a life, a place he belonged and he wholeheartedly believe that Orga will get him there. And the sad part is that Orga did and then Orga kept reaching because he thought that was what was expected of him or that it was his only choice. It is why when Mika is dying he realizes "Oh... we'd already gotten there." Mika spent his entire life dedicated to trying to make a place for himself and his loved ones to belong, no matter the cost. It is what drove him until the very last moment where the poor boy realized at long last that he'd gotten what he wanted all along.

I agree with you, and I think we are crossing wires on what I meant. Mikazuki never once wallows in his situation. I guess that's what I mean. Many other Gundam protags have a moment where they are beaten down by the circumstances and overwhelmed by the awful situation they find themselves in. Mika I think is unique in his ability to purely use that desire, without it becoming a negative nexus that consumes him and drives his decisions even if only for a short time. Kamille, Amuro, Jesus Yamato, a great deal of Gundam protags find that inability to figure out the puzzle crippling, Mika may choose the wrong choices time and again, but it never drives him from the goal he has. He stays the path good or bad better than most Gundam protags, maybe Setusna or Heero would be close, but they're both much flatter characters than Mika is which i think makes his resolve more impressive.

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Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas;


This is missing one of the big shifts in Mika's characterisation, where he gradually realised that he's very good at killing people but doesn't really have as much of a place for himself in the post-war world, culminating in him intentionally escalating his disability so that his friends will be forced to use him as a soldier rather than trying to make him a farmer. He had a chance at civilian life, but he was too wounded by his previous lifestyle, too used to being the most capable person in the room, and too obsessed with remaining useful to Orga to make it work, and S2 is the story of his long downward spiral because he was too terrified of living and moving on.

The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!


Darth Walrus posted:

This is missing one of the big shifts in Mika's characterisation, where he gradually realised that he's very good at killing people but doesn't really have as much of a place for himself in the post-war world, culminating in him intentionally escalating his disability so that his friends will be forced to use him as a soldier rather than trying to make him a farmer. He had a chance at civilian life, but he was too wounded by his previous lifestyle, too used to being the most capable person in the room, and too obsessed with remaining useful to Orga to make it work, and S2 is the story of his long downward spiral because he was too terrified of living and moving on.

This is something I think was baked in from very early on. I think it takes him the whole series to consciously understand it, not fully grasping it until his last moments, but I think he has always believed that he never had any place but as a tool of violence for Orga to help achieve his goals. It's part of why his only answer at the end is to follow the plan, good, bad or the other, it is the principle he has steadfastly lived by that has given his loved ones the chance he believes he can never have (the irony of course is that they did have that chance but like Icarus had to keep reaching for the sun).

Last Celebration
Mar 30, 2010


I might be a very very stupid person, but Mikaís last stand was pretty much entirely pragmatism, wasnít it? Like itís not openly stated as such but he wasnít realistically getting out of there once Tekkadenís last stand started, being that he was pretty much helpless unconnected to Barbartos, especially after overclocking himself for the last time.

Darth Walrus posted:

This is missing one of the big shifts in Mika's characterisation, where he gradually realised that he's very good at killing people but doesn't really have as much of a place for himself in the post-war world, culminating in him intentionally escalating his disability so that his friends will be forced to use him as a soldier rather than trying to make him a farmer. He had a chance at civilian life, but he was too wounded by his previous lifestyle, too used to being the most capable person in the room, and too obsessed with remaining useful to Orga to make it work, and S2 is the story of his long downward spiral because he was too terrified of living and moving on.

Iím not saying this take is wrong as a whole, but I think itís selling Mikazuki short to say that he deliberately hosed his brain up for any reason other than him seeing no other way to stop whatever immediate death machine that was going to kill his friends came up.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009


Mika chooses brain/nerve damage because he doesn't believe he has any worth at all except as a weapon for Orga to point at his enemies, and considers it perfectly acceptable for to be crippled outside of Barbatos as long as it doesn't impact his ability to pilot it. He doesn't do it as some sort devious ploy to manipulate Tekkadan into treating him like a soldier.

Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 14:57 on May 21, 2020

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas;


Last Celebration posted:

I might be a very very stupid person, but Mikaís last stand was pretty much entirely pragmatism, wasnít it? Like itís not openly stated as such but he wasnít realistically getting out of there once Tekkadenís last stand started, being that he was pretty much helpless unconnected to Barbartos, especially after overclocking himself for the last time.


Iím not saying this take is wrong as a whole, but I think itís selling Mikazuki short to say that he deliberately hosed his brain up for any reason other than him seeing no other way to stop whatever immediate death machine that was going to kill his friends came up.

He spells it out in his conversation with Orga one episode later.

Monaghan
Dec 29, 2006



Mika gives himself permanent damage on three occasions

1) When fighting Ein. He removes the limiter, but the damage he receives is a surprise. He know after this if he does it again, it could potentially gently caress him up again.
2) He's fighting the mobile armor. The armor is tearing through people and he does it to save his own life along with the lives of his friends and potentially thousands of people.
3) The third and final time where he realizes he's pretty much hosed but wants to keep fighting to give his friends a chance to escape

Mika doesn't really care about getting the nerve damage, but he's not deliberately doing it just to keep fighting, he just thinks he doesn't have a choice but to do so. All the other times he did it was where there was no other option or he was going to die anyway. Him being blase about the damage is not the same as him seeking to receive it. He knows that after the second round of brain damage there's no way he can become a farmer, which is why he just accepts that he's going to be an ms pilot forever.

Monaghan fucked around with this message at 16:06 on May 21, 2020

MechaX
Nov 19, 2011

"Let's be positive! Let's start a fire!"


Mika also struck me as a person who, even if he would have had a lot of self conscious doubts about it, would have probably given the civilian farmer life as fair of a shake as he could if outside factors/Orga didnít intervene.

He essentially says ďwell, maybe itís better this way that Iím a cripple because all Iíve ever known was killingĒ to rationalize his situation, but each and every time he overclocked the Barbatos was because his back was against the wall

habituallyred
Feb 6, 2015


gimme the GOD drat candy posted:

even the treads make sense, as there's no way for it to fire such enormous cannons and stay on two feet. they are artillery, not beam guns. it only gets silly and pointless in space.

If only there was some large flat section of hull, devoid of any obstructing turrets or whatnot. Then the Guntank could act as a mobile turret on the defenceless flank such a piece of hull would represent on a spacegoing warship. Too bad...

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007

Ask me about the hate crime perpetrated against a gay black man, and how it was a real hate crime and totally not fabricated. I am well acquainted with the facts of this actual hate crime which actually took place in actuality.

turrets on base ships aren't generally allowed to achieve anything in gundam. that would take away the focus from robot fights.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



gimme the GOD drat candy posted:

turrets on base ships aren't generally allowed to achieve anything in gundam. that would take away the focus from robot fights.

Chan managed to score a kill on a Zeon ace with one in Char's Counterattack, and they did alright in IBO.

It's not the most common, for the reason you mentioned, but from time to time turrets manage to do something or their failure to do something is treated as a sign of pilot skill rather than crew uselessness.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



gimme the GOD drat candy posted:

turrets on base ships aren't generally allowed to achieve anything in gundam. that would take away the focus from robot fights.

Turrets tend to actually do quite a lot in Gundam. I'm pretty sure every 'main' carrier takes down a fair number of mobile suits or other units with them. They don't necessarily stop super ace pilots but even then they are a reason why ever ace doesn't just B-line for the carrier and shoot it down.

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006



College Slice

Monaghan posted:

Mika gives himself permanent damage on three occasions

1) When fighting Ein. He removes the limiter, but the damage he receives is a surprise. He know after this if he does it again, it could potentially gently caress him up again.
2) He's fighting the mobile armor. The armor is tearing through people and he does it to save his own life along with the lives of his friends and potentially thousands of people.
3) The third and final time where he realizes he's pretty much hosed but wants to keep fighting to give his friends a chance to escape

Mika doesn't really care about getting the nerve damage, but he's not deliberately doing it just to keep fighting, he just thinks he doesn't have a choice but to do so. All the other times he did it was where there was no other option or he was going to die anyway. Him being blase about the damage is not the same as him seeking to receive it. He knows that after the second round of brain damage there's no way he can become a farmer, which is why he just accepts that he's going to be an ms pilot forever.

I just also want to throw in the fact that in each of these fights, Barbatos is so trashed that it needs to be completely rebuilt.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012

I came here to laugh at you





ImpAtom posted:

Turrets tend to actually do quite a lot in Gundam. I'm pretty sure every 'main' carrier takes down a fair number of mobile suits or other units with them. They don't necessarily stop super ace pilots but even then they are a reason why ever ace doesn't just B-line for the carrier and shoot it down.

Seed was actually a good example of this: Kira had a tendency to get distracted and lured away in fights, but more than once the Archangel's flak barrage was shown to be effective at keeping the Buster and Blitz at bay--at least long enough for someone to knock some sense into Kira or for him to go berserker mode.

There's also the do a barrel roll scene.

The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!


The capital ship cannons are for engaging other capital ships, that they occasionally get lucky and hit an MS is just that lucky. The shift in the fleet design over the OYW and the introduction of the white base is an actual response to the fact that with Minovsky Particles the MS is your primary mode of engagement and you only have those big guns for if you happen to get close enough to take a shot at the enemy's carrier.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012

I came here to laugh at you





The Notorious ZSB posted:

The capital ship cannons are for engaging other capital ships, that they occasionally get lucky and hit an MS is just that lucky. The shift in the fleet design over the OYW and the introduction of the white base is an actual response to the fact that with Minovsky Particles the MS is your primary mode of engagement and you only have those big guns for if you happen to get close enough to take a shot at the enemy's carrier.

It also relegates warships like the Magellan, Salamis, and Musai to fortress busting doesn't it? Because that's the only situation where a "battleship" would remain useful.

Kinda mirrors post-war naval doctrines IRL.

The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!


Warmachine posted:

It also relegates warships like the Magellan, Salamis, and Musai to fortress busting doesn't it? Because that's the only situation where a "battleship" would remain useful.

Kinda mirrors post-war naval doctrines IRL.

The MS is imo an analogy for the introduction of air combat to warfare. It fundamentally shifted the value of what you had in your fleet pushing more towards carriers and smaller protective vessels vs these huge capital ships designed to attack from the edges of the horizon. So yeah, it turns your large warships into fortress busters which really does make sense in the UC timeline given how often Zeon repurposes asteroids and colonies for dangerous stupid gambits, and force the introduction of ships like White Base which are really just MS Carriers with enough to defend themselves if they get caught around other capital ships and escape which is mostly what they do.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009


It's an intended parallel, and why White Base is such a revolutionary ship design, in the same way aircraft carriers were revolutionary at the time.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas;


Interestingly, IBO has mobile suits as battleships and Dainsleif launchers as aircraft, culminating with the war ending in a pseudo-Hiroshima.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


If battleships were relegated to being fortress busters, then they're not very good at it, because we never actually see them bust any kind of fortress. The few times that warships confront fortresses of any kind they need something else to combat them, whether that be the Solar System in 0079 against Solomon, lots and lots of mobile suits to reduce forces and allow for landing at A Baoa Qu in 0079, planting nukes in Char's Counterattack etc. Even the one time I can recall a ship targeting and attacking a fortress with it's guns, the Nahel Argama using it's new mega particle cannon on Axis in ZZ, it barely made a dent and they immediately decide that attacking with with the ship is futile.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012

I came here to laugh at you





tsob posted:

If battleships were relegated to being fortress busters, then they're not very good at it, because we never actually see them bust any kind of fortress. The few times that warships confront fortresses of any kind they need something else to combat them, whether that be the Solar System in 0079 against Solomon, lots and lots of mobile suits to reduce forces and allow for landing at A Baoa Qu in 0079, planting nukes in Char's Counterattack etc. Even the one time I can recall a ship targeting and attacking a fortress with it's guns, the Nahel Argama using it's new mega particle cannon on Axis in ZZ, it barely made a dent and they immediately decide that attacking with with the ship is futile.

This is like saying because catapults and battering rams can't take a castle by themselves that using them during a siege is pointless. Battleships (read: siege weapons) soften the fortress so that the mobile suits (read: infantry) can actually capture it.

Granted, I don't think this is actually shown, but that is because cutting to shots of battleship fire smashing into the outside of a fortress and sometimes taking out surface emplacements, hangars, and random hallways isn't as interesting as watching the mobile suits try to close the distance and do the landing part.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Solkanar512 posted:

I just also want to throw in the fact that in each of these fights, Barbatos is so trashed that it needs to be completely rebuilt.

That's because he dropped too many good mats. Rest in pieces Barbatos, you will remain in our farming hearts.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


Warmachine posted:

Granted, I don't think this is actually shown, but that is because cutting to shots of battleship fire smashing into the outside of a fortress and sometimes taking out surface emplacements, hangars, and random hallways isn't as interesting as watching the mobile suits try to close the distance and do the landing part.

We also never hear of it. You're just kind of assuming they fulfil that role without much, if any, proof. Which isn't like saying that battering rams are useless because they can't do anything on their own, because at least we know from many, many records and descriptions that that's what their purpose was. If anything is like a battering ram in UC, it's aforementioned laser weapons (colony lasers, solar system etc), because they are used to tear open fortresses and decimate fleets. When the Federation attacks A Baoa Qu, it's the mobile suits that are swarming the exterior to try and soften it up for mobile suits to land and not the other way around. The battleships mostly appear to be fighting other battleships or mobile suits, and not bombarding A Baoa Qu.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas;


The Nahel Argama does a pretty decent job of cracking open that asteroid colony in Unicorn.

Gripweed
Nov 8, 2018


https://twitter.com/travis37564/sta...3877733378?s=20

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012

I came here to laugh at you






This fellow really loves Windams.

Taintrunner
Apr 10, 2017



I finished Stardust Memory. I liked it! 3.5/5 stars, nothing spectacular but I had a good time with stuff like the Zacks and GP02. Plus the evil cat lady.

Finally, FINALLY watching 08th MS Team and Iím excited to build my Ball ver Ka after finishing detail work on my Zaku II FZ custom.

Argas
Jan 13, 2008
SRW Fanatic




Darth Walrus posted:

The Nahel Argama does a pretty decent job of cracking open that asteroid colony in Unicorn.

It still took teams of special ops to set up explosives to destroy the structural linkages between the asteroids which certainly implies the Nahel Argama's biggest gun lacks the firepower to do much to an asteroid on its own, which is fairly consistent with lore. It was also just to keep them from deploying the bulk of their ships and MS rather than engage in a protracted battle.

There's a reason the Magellan basically just stops showing up while every single Salamis gets converted. Having several larger and well-armed carriers like the Argama and Nahel Argama is certainly useful but for most deployments you can just add a couple of Salamis to increase the number of MS and maybe throw on a couple of specialized MS if they need special capability. For the most parts, ships just exist to ferry MS. You still give them guns because being defenseless really fucks with morale, and being able to shoot at MS at least makes them expend some effort towards not dying.

It's just that depictions are inconsistent with how easy ships are to blow up. Sometimes literally anything will blow up ships while other depictions (I think the Origin especially) shows them as pretty durable and meaty if you can't hit crucial components. Early Zaku IIs used bazookas firing nukes to sink ships and later Zakus stripped out the radiation shielding because of the Antarctic Treaty rendering the whole thing nil. Beam weapons are supposed to be the big game changer there because you can one-shot mobile suits and pierce ship armor, but actual depictions vary when depicting the effectiveness of projectile weapons. It's kind of like Star Wars stormtrooper armor where the depiction doesn't line up with the lore because it's not prioritizing lore accuracy versus pacing, etc.

The standout example of the Nahel Argama leveragining its main gun comes near the end of Unicorn where recon MS locate the enemy ships and the Nahel Argama snipes them long before they're in range to respond with guns, while there's a MS battle going on and even attempts at damaging the Nahel Argama by enemy MS.

Fortress busting I don't buy if only because it turns out real big rocks can stand up to just about anything because it's a lot of mass. The Nahel Argama's main gun was used to dislodge one of Palau's asteroids once the support structure was compromised but it clearly lacks the ability to blow through the rock.

Ramadu
Aug 25, 2004

2015 NFL MVP



https://mobile.twitter.com/acideate...194226532859904

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007






Biscuit Hider

Here's a piece of good bad Gundam merchandise I forgot I had:

Taintrunner
Apr 10, 2017



Midjack posted:

Here's a piece of good bad Gundam merchandise I forgot I had:


drat I want that so hard

Is anyone familiar with MS Saga? It's a loving bizarro JRPG where the Feddies and Zeon never stopped lobbing nukes in the OYW, plunging the world into darkness and hundreds of years later technology has reverted to a weird medieval era, but there's still mobile suits running around



Fun stuff!

Droyer
Oct 9, 2012



Taintrunner posted:

drat I want that so hard

Is anyone familiar with MS Saga? It's a loving bizarro JRPG where the Feddies and Zeon never stopped lobbing nukes in the OYW, plunging the world into darkness and hundreds of years later technology has reverted to a weird medieval era, but there's still mobile suits running around



Fun stuff!

There's a couple LPs of it on the LP archive. The writing seems to consist entirely of combining a bunch of JRPG clichťs with a bunch of Gundam clichťs to create the least original story ever conceived by man.

Kingtheninja
Jul 29, 2004

"You're the best looking guy here."


It was a very fun game but very hard to find these days. I liked swapping parts.

HitTheTargets
Mar 3, 2006

I came here to laugh at you.


One of your party members joins when she after she fails to punch you to death because she mistook a Guntank for the Shining Gundam.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



HitTheTargets posted:

One of your party members joins when she after she fails to punch you to death because she mistook a Guntank for the Shining Gundam.

I thought it was a Guncannon.

Also, they have Mobile Suits reduced to Armored Trooper scale.

Hunter Noventa
Apr 21, 2010


Taintrunner posted:

drat I want that so hard

Is anyone familiar with MS Saga? It's a loving bizarro JRPG where the Feddies and Zeon never stopped lobbing nukes in the OYW, plunging the world into darkness and hundreds of years later technology has reverted to a weird medieval era, but there's still mobile suits running around



Fun stuff!

There's an LP of it on the LP Archive if I recall.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012

I came here to laugh at you





chiasaur11 posted:

I thought it was a Guncannon.

Also, they have Mobile Suits reduced to Armored Trooper scale.

It was in fact a Guncannon.

Said girl is also the bad guy's sister, iirc.

Droyer
Oct 9, 2012



chiasaur11 posted:

I thought it was a Guncannon.

Also, they have Mobile Suits reduced to Armored Trooper scale.

Not really?

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.



Is that the one to go into some complex aside about how Newtypes are crippled mutants worthy only of scorn and pity, or do I just hang out with weird people who cannot stop being mad about Gundam in eccentric ways?

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Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012

I came here to laugh at you





Droyer posted:

Not really?



Humans in close perspective to SD suits always looks weird to me.

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