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drrockso20 posted:I'd give it to the Leo, overall I've always pegged them as being a fair amount more advanced, like they'd probably be just a little below the Jegan in performance I'm thinking the opposite. Leo's always felt much more slow and clunky, while zakus tended to be much more "dude in armor" and come off as way more agile, while armor/weapon strength seems identical between them
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Sep 14, 2020 08:06
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To be fair, the Gundams they have to face are also insane, nigh-indestructible murder machines. Wing's buster rifle makes the RX-78's beam rifle look like a flashlight.
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Sep 14, 2020 08:16
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Tallgeese is a Leo, the contest is already over and settled.
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Sep 14, 2020 08:50
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The Gundams in Wing have always been this weird mix of impressive and underwhelming, at least part of which is the fact that of the seven Gundams that appear within the show, four of them are melee oriented(and of the three ranged ones, two of them fill the same niche), it's really lacking in variety(G had it easier cause they could get away with ridiculous stuff better), which is something that they've definitely accounted for better in later series with teams with multiple Gundams on them
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Sep 14, 2020 08:53
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jackhunter64 posted:Tallgeese is a Leo, the contest is already over and settled. Other way around actually, indeed literally all Mobile Suits in Wing's setting claim descent from the Tallgeese, even the Gundams since their designers had worked on the Tallgeese first
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Sep 14, 2020 08:55
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My memory is that the later "Space Leos" are actually supposed to be really impressive? .Like, they gave Duo and somebody else trouble IIRC? It was the ep where Zechs charges in and slices Barge with his big-rear end sword. Duo and somebody else couldn't get through the Leos on their own. Also it's apparently Space Fortress Bulge in Japanese...and Zechs cut it apart... Huh.
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Sep 14, 2020 09:03
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NikkolasKing posted:My memory is that the later "Space Leos" are actually supposed to be really impressive? .Like, they gave Duo and somebody else trouble IIRC? Probably because it's presumably easier to ramp up the performance levels of a Leo in Space than it is on Earth
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Sep 14, 2020 09:06
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Kanos posted:The math for Wing suits makes even less sense than normal giant robot math, so who knows? A Leo is a 16 meter tall giant robot that weighs a grand total of 7 tons, despite supposedly being made of titanium. they are made of titanium and explosions. the latter material is very lightweight.
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Sep 14, 2020 09:08
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Omnicrom posted:Moreover Unicorn suggests that the Sleeves exist with the tacit, plausibly deniable blessing of the Federation as they're seen as no major threat and them doing things is a good justification to spend on military pet projects and give good PR to the Federation by making it look like it's doing things and not a bloated corrupt cancer. That this is basically how the Federation treated Char's Neo Zeon, that Char nearly ended the world, and that nobody apparently learned anything from this is emblematic of the Federation's arrogance and incompetence. The issue with this take is it's directly antithesis to the Federation of CCA, which was so loving poor and earth was SUCH a shitshow that rather than just bring the hammer on Char, they were willing to take his money if it meant being able to fund social programs. To then go "And after that they suddenly decided to leave the Sleeves running around so they could spend more money on fancy weapons" which, considering Jegan's are still in-service in F91, not only that but it's directly contrary to the EFSF's Late UC presence of "Deliberately not spending on mobile suits in an effort to save money" And yeah I know I've made my feelings on Unicorn clear but I really do hate its entire existence in regards to UC canon. Same reason I was never a big fan of Hathaway's Flash.
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Sep 14, 2020 10:02
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Leos are like the IBO Graze, in that they're cutting edge mobile suit technology that just happens to be outclassed by a) protagonist Gundams and b) their tragic fate as grunt suits, which requires them to be exploding constantly. It's mostly b).
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Sep 14, 2020 11:38
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i'm pretty sure leos had much stiffer movements and frequently had what looked much more like preset poses for stuff like gun holding, while zakus had positions they'd hold the gun in but had a lot more movement in shifting their shoulders to bring the gun up to their eye for aiming down the sight or quickly pointing their gun elsewhere if they need to hip fire or something. i'm not sure leos show any real ability to move their arms quickly outside of when zechs pilots one, they mostly swivel at the hips to get the gun pointed in a slightly different direction instead (like how a tank's turret swivels). and their steps are always so slow and stompy. they sell that "it's like tanks, but they're holding the gun and have legs instead of treads" feeling really well, they generally move a lot like tanks do while zakus move a lot more like infantry do. to the extent that fluff validates that or not idk but that's always the image it seemed like they were supposed to evoke to me. large, cumbersome, and definitely not good for anything besides getting shot and pulling a trigger. though in part it's because wing doesn't like to show stuff moving too much i guess ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 11:56 on Sep 14, 2020 |
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Sep 14, 2020 11:50
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Leos have a pair of beam sabers, which should give them an edge (ahem) in melee combat over the Zaku's single heat hawk. Grazes are interesting because you can buy from their performance in the show that they're decent units that unfortunately happen to be specialised for asymmetrical warfare. Like, it's only really Gundams (and supremely good pilots in single-reactor suits) who clown on them, and they clown on anything. For everyone else, they're certainly no less dangerous than any other mass-produced machine.
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Sep 14, 2020 12:10
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Darth Walrus posted:Leos have a pair of beam sabers, which should give them an edge (ahem) in melee combat over the Zaku's single heat hawk. Another thing I noticed is how rarely Grazes explode. You see it occasionally, but most of the kills look more like mission kills than catastrophic ones. Admittedly, a lot of pilots would have to be hosed out of the cockpits, but the Graze itself is intact, even when they're being taken down in bulk. Add in Akihiro doing pretty well in one and the fact Graze pilots being killed by other mooks is treated as notable rather than routine, it sums up to a tolerably successful grunt.
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Sep 14, 2020 13:10
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wing suits work by trpg rules. they're minions with 1 HP unless they have a named pilot, in which case they have regular PC HP pools. i recently rewatched wing after 15 years of the last time since i saw the latam dub on tv and it's unironically, genuinely good but that scene where une limply floats in a taurus that keeps getting knocked around by shots that would make a normal grunt explode is kind of ridiculous heero and treize also withstand way more shots in their leos without them exploding than anyone else.
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Sep 14, 2020 13:52
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Darth Walrus posted:Leos have a pair of beam sabers, which should give them an edge (ahem) in melee combat over the Zaku's single heat hawk. I agree with this. Focusing on individual suit performance is kind of pointless given how varied they tend to be in depiction. They're both capable enough grunts without major flaws. None of their ranged weapons really give each of them a decisive advantage. Whoever shoots first probably wins. Neither is really depicted as being distinctly good at target acquisition and etc. The Leo's flight pack could give it superior mobility but mobility alone isn't going to kill a Zaku. Arguably the Leo has a slight advantage in that it has beam weapons but the Zaku isn't lacking in weapons that can destroy MS. If this were a much larger fight this advantage would give the Leos a significant advantage but one-on-one the best shot each MS has comes down to whoever sees the other first. In melee the beam saber simply has superior reach and cutting power. I could see the heat hawk narrowly giving the Zaku an advantage in very niche circumstances where the mass of the weapon vs the mostly energy blade beam saber (ie think the Juagg in Gundam Unicorn) but this would have to be extraordinary circumstances given the heat hawk's small size. We're not talking one of the bigger heat hawk variants, just the vanilla one. In practically every circumstance the beam sabers give the Leo the edge. It doesn't need any real wind-up to do damage, whereas you could prevent the Zaku from swinging the axe. Sure, the heat will still do damage but we're comparing it to a beam saber in this instance and there's no contest there.
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Sep 14, 2020 14:32
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The overall impression I got during my last rewatch of Wing was that even OZ and the Alliance (and Romafeller) considered Leos to be disposable and a bit rickety. Aside from mechanization, the Taurus seemed like it was a supposed to be jump up in quality from Leos. In general though one of the things that has stood out for me in my franchise watch quest is that Wing had more specalized grunt suits than I remembered. Leos were all purpose ground units that were easily modified for space combat, Aries for air combat, and Pieces and Cancer for underwater combat. Plus the Mercurius and Vayate, which have some design elements that get co-opted by the Taurus later - mainly the energy sheild.
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Sep 14, 2020 14:41
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Another neat detail from wing is how the grunt suits are basically deployed like napoleonic line infantry. Looks awesome with suits like virgos that just plow through opposition.
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Sep 14, 2020 15:30
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Argas posted:The Leo's flight pack could give it superior mobility but mobility alone isn't going to kill a Zaku. Arguably the Leo has a slight advantage in that it has beam weapons but the Zaku isn't lacking in weapons that can destroy MS. If this were a much larger fight this advantage would give the Leos a significant advantage but one-on-one the best shot each MS has comes down to whoever sees the other first. If you give a Leo it's flight pack it will beat a Zaku II, end of story, because flight is an untenable advantage. If it can fly, then it can attack it's enemy at range with impunity and there's no getting around that. A beam weapon is also going to be a pretty good advantage, just because it's all but guaranteed a one hit kill where a machine gun will normally take several hits to destroy a target.
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Sep 14, 2020 15:46
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tsob posted:If you give a Leo it's flight pack it will beat a Zaku II, end of story, because flight is an untenable advantage. If it can fly, then it can attack it's enemy at range with impunity and there's no getting around that. A beam weapon is also going to be a pretty good advantage, just because it's all but guaranteed a one hit kill where a machine gun will normally take several hits to destroy a target. I mostly remember the flight pack being used in low altitude hovering-like scenarios rather than Aries-level maneuver. As for beam weapons, yeah but the Leo isn't that heavy or armored enough that it can shrug off a few machine gun rounds to land an accurate shot in response. So it comes back down to whoever sees and fires first in my mind.
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Sep 14, 2020 20:09
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Tulalip Tulips posted:The overall impression I got during my last rewatch of Wing was that even OZ and the Alliance (and Romafeller) considered Leos to be disposable and a bit rickety. Aside from mechanization, the Taurus seemed like it was a supposed to be jump up in quality from Leos. To be fair the Leo is like a 40 year old design or something by Wing's time, while the Taurus is a brand new top of the line suit Also it's the Virgo that has that stuff, not the Taurus
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Sep 14, 2020 20:21
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Ah you're right, it is the Virgo that's got the shields. I was thinking I was off when I posted it but my early morning brain was shot. Taurus had the transforming mode and the option to have a human pilot, Virgo was mobile doll only and had the planet defensors.
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Sep 14, 2020 21:09
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Argas posted:I mostly remember the flight pack being used in low altitude hovering-like scenarios rather than Aries-level maneuver. It depends. The Zaku II's defensive properties are pretty consistent, but the Leo could tank a dozen or more shots if a named character is piloting it and keep going, rather than having paper armour over an explodium skeleton.
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Sep 14, 2020 21:59
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tsob posted:It depends. The Zaku II's defensive properties are pretty consistent, but the Leo could tank a dozen or more shots if a named character is piloting it and keep going, rather than having paper armour over an explodium skeleton. This is why I'm not really bothering with treating the Leo based on its various depictions because it is way, way more prone to plot armor than the Zaku is based on who's piloting. It's a basic general-purpose grunt that excels at nothing.
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Sep 15, 2020 03:00
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with grunt suits, the only metrics are how cool they look and whether 3 of one kind can beat 2 of another. it's not like they are ever a threat to gundams or other fancy custom units.
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Sep 15, 2020 03:09
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zechs owned wing gundam with a leo in ep 1
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Sep 15, 2020 03:12
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Stairmaster posted:zechs owned wing gundam with a leo in ep 1 this is lowkey my favorite part of the first episode, zechs just clowns on heero so hard. dude's fighting a gundam in the sky and he not only wins, but he does so in the paper mache ground unit entirely in freefall, which he elected to do over taking either of the two robots on board that could, you know, fly zechs owns
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Sep 15, 2020 03:40
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He also adapts to G forces that should turn him into paste by sheer force of will, and then it becomes too slow for him.
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Sep 15, 2020 03:43
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thats the other thing about leo vs zaku the gundam pilots in wing are so bullshit but dont have the excuse of amuro's newtype hacks. they're just teens with attitude.
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Sep 15, 2020 04:23
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Stairmaster posted:thats the other thing about leo vs zaku the gundam pilots in wing are so bullshit but dont have the excuse of amuro's newtype hacks. they're just teens with attitude. I've always seen Wing as having a bit of G influence. While Heero is no Domon, he's still closer to Domon thane he is to other Gundam pilots in terms of his absurd physical abilities. Back in the day when I first watched G I got it because I was told "it's like DBZ with robots." And while a huge simplification, it really is a shounen battle anim but with Gundam tropes and robots. Wing followed on G's heels and retained a lot of that over-the-top larger-than-life type of characterization. First thing I thought of when reading chumbler's post was Zechs is a Saiyan and he got stronger through fighting. That's really the only thing that can makes sense of how he grew to surpass Tallgeese, he did the shounen battle thing and went beyond his limits through constant adversity and sheer willpower.
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Sep 15, 2020 04:32
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I finished 008th ms team and its definitely a gundam most people can do without. Kind of hosed up how the last episode has zero robot fighting and is its own self contained vignette but is way more captivating than all the episodes that came before.
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Sep 15, 2020 04:52
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I remember loving 08th MS Team as a teen because I really liked the smaller scale of everything. I came in to it after watching 0083 too so that probably colors my memory a bit. I'm going to start Seed this weekend so it'll probably be the next one after it.
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Sep 15, 2020 05:08
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:with grunt suits, the only metrics are how cool they look and whether 3 of one kind can beat 2 of another. it's not like they are ever a threat to gundams or other fancy custom units. Depends on the show. In Turn A, Harry was chased off at one point by a team of Zaku IIs, IBO's been discussed at length before, and some of the OVAs let grunts take down elite suits. (For example, the Faye Yeager special in Stargazer.) Even in Zeta, until almost the end, everyone (except Amuro) treated any large group of grunts as a significant issue. The sharp hero/grunt divide isn't universal, basically, which makes the grunts in shows that have it (like the Leo and the Windam) look worse than ones shows that don't (like the Graze and the Zaku II) even when, on paper, the specs for the Leo are better than its opponents.
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Sep 15, 2020 05:40
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ninjewtsu posted:this is lowkey my favorite part of the first episode, zechs just clowns on heero so hard. dude's fighting a gundam in the sky and he not only wins, but he does so in the paper mache ground unit entirely in freefall, which he elected to do over taking either of the two robots on board that could, you know, fly I'm honestly never quite sure how to take that fight, because yeah, Zechs won using a Leo, but at the same time, Heero seems to have put up almost no resistance and may even have wanted to lose given the way the entire thing is presented. It's loving weird, because that makes no sense with what we're told in that scene, but at the same time when people shoot at him, Heero makes literally no effort to dodge, the only reason he even transforms is because the stabilizer on the Bird Form is damaged and he has to transform to continue a controlled descent and when Zechs does grapple the Wing, he does so using a simple leg hook while still so high in the atmosphere the clouds looked kind of distant below them and yet Heero makes no effort to get out of grapple despite the fact moving the Wing's leg should break it, never attempts to overpower the Leo's hold despite the fact that the Gundams are repeatedly shown as far stronger than units like the Leo throughout the rest of the show, doesn't transform again for a few seconds even though that would probably break the hold too, doesn't even try to correct the unit's posture or break the fall and then when the Wing does crash in to the ocean the first thing Heero attempts to do after recovering is go back and blow up the Wing because it'd been seen by Oz/Alliance/Romefeller units. Maybe the grapple that Zechs locked the Wing in to is just supposed to be more comprehensive than what we see, but even if it was then the Wing should still have been able to break it given the normal unit strength differential presented in the rest of the show. Which, yeah, maybe that's something that goes out the window when named characters are using it too, so that the unit gets physically stronger as well as physically tougher when someone like Zechs is piloting it, as well as the leg lock being tighter and more binding than what we're shown, but a unit that can fly even in it's humanoid shape should be able to at least break it's fall a bit and not just fall like a stone in to the ocean even when supporting another unit at the same time. Even if you dismiss all that, then there's still no reason for Heero to default to "My mission is a bust and I have to detonate the Wing Gundam" only after hitting the ocean, and he must have come to that conclusion at some point before the end of the fight to explain his actions. chumbler posted:He also adapts to G forces that should turn him into paste by sheer force of will, and then it becomes too slow for him. And then Treize pilots one with no apparent effort or extra equipment, undermining that struggle entirely even ignoring that the Gundam pilots had apparently been doing so all along. They're at least suggested to be superhuman in a few cases though, but I don't recall Duo or Quatre ever being suggested to be superhuman in some manner. NikkolasKing posted:Back in the day when I first watched G I got it because I was told "it's like DBZ with robots." And while a huge simplification, it really is a shounen battle anim but with Gundam tropes and robots. It's also inaccurate. Kind of. G Gundam isn't Dragon Ball with robots, it's Saint Seiya with robots. At least according to interview cards with Imagawa included as extras on the home release, where he gives production information and answers questions about the show episode to episode or something. It's been a while since I've seen them, but I know he described Saint Seiya as the main inspiration, and not Dragon Ball. I've never seen it to know how accurate that comparison is, but if anyone would know, it's Imagawa.
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Sep 15, 2020 09:48
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Having seen both, it is accurate, but not as much as it could be. The 90's had a boom of shonen series inspired by both DB and SS, the former for reasons I'm sure you already know of and the latter in having a core cast of 4-5 color-coded somewhat-queer-subtexted pretty boys (often each given a different elemental power) who all took turns sharing the spotlight and had their own focus episodes (but there was always a protagonist who was somehow stronger somehow). This trend would later become more of a magical girl genre convention. It's pretty clear in the episodic structure and core cast of G Gundam that it was an inspiration, just not to the degree of, say, Ronin Warriors or Sailor Moon. Honestly Gundam Wing is way more obviously directly inspired by this trend than G Gundam.
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Sep 15, 2020 14:09
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Stairmaster posted:I finished 008th ms team and its definitely a gundam most people can do without. Kind of hosed up how the last episode has zero robot fighting and is its own self contained vignette but is way more captivating than all the episodes that came before. The show ended with them destroying the Apsalus and the rest of the team searching for Shiro's body. ... What do you mean there was an entire episode dedicated to the two worst characters in the show meeting a tribe of newtype children that had nothing to do with anything? Yeah, I'm not a fan of the ending of 08th MS Team. Kiki's storyline ended with the destruction of the guerrilla village and Michel is just the loving worst.
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Sep 15, 2020 15:16
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NikkolasKing posted:Wing followed on G's heels and retained a lot of that over-the-top larger-than-life type of characterization.
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Sep 15, 2020 15:35
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Zedd posted:This X erasure.... X came immediately after Wing, which came immediately after G. It's why both the audience and the staff were so burned out.
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Sep 15, 2020 15:42
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Darth Walrus posted:X came immediately after Wing, which came immediately after G. It's why both the audience and the staff were so burned out. I don't buy the idea that the audience was suffering burn out after a few years of Gundam shows on the trot for one second. The staff, maybe, but I'd doubt that too honestly. Not the audience though, because people tune in for literal decades on the go to watch the same show or similar shows in long running franchises across multiple genres and multiple mediums without issue and I have never seen a single convincing argument for why Gundam in particular would be an exception to that trend. If people were worn out it was because the show itself or the gunpla was tiring them, not because they couldn't stand the idea of another Gundam show on the trot. Which, yeah, the show did drop some audience share but it wasn't a huge audience share anyway, at least until Sunrise shifted it's timeslot to 6am. Which was practically a death sentence. I've seen some speculation over the years that the channel and/or sponsors got tired of continuing to run a franchise that dropped audience share almost every year (Wing was one of the few shows since Gundam began to cause an upswing in ratings) and X was just the point where it crossed from "dwindling but still profitable" to "now no longer worth the effort" and Sunrise killed it because no-one wanted to continue supporting it and it sounds like plausible business reasoning to me, as well as matching up with the data available on ratings and viewership; that has gently caress all to do with audience fatigue though. tsob fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Sep 15, 2020 |
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Sep 15, 2020 16:38
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Darth Walrus posted:X came immediately after Wing, which came immediately after G. It's why both the audience and the staff were so burned out. And all those came after Victory! Going from Victory to G to Wing is a hell of a three year period for a franchise.
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Sep 15, 2020 16:51
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X was a good show but also kind of a weird pull in terms of audience. Its a bit too dour to be a goofy funtime adventure, a bit too comedic to be a serious exploration of the effects of war, doesnt really resemble a gundam war narrative at all but isnt as bombastic as g, etc. It doesnt feel like X really knows who its for.
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Sep 15, 2020 16:52
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