Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


Darth Walrus posted:

That didn't stop them from being treated with religious reverence, though - in fact, that would be a great motivation for families to send their kids to have their brains eaten by giant robot demons. The status of the modern-day Seven Stars absolutely speaks to an ancient martyrdom culture.

No it doesn't, it speaks to the last seven kids who got the highest kill scores and weren't completely brain-dead once the AI's were destroyed. The whole point is literally nothing's changed in the 300-odd years since then and Mikazuki is exactly the kind of person who'd be one of the pilots that would've become a Seven Stars ancestor.


tsob posted:

I'm never quite clear on this, but the version of the Alaya-Vijnana system that McGillis uses; is it the original, safe version that can be used on adults or was it a perfected version, better than that in use during the Calamity War?

I believe it's the original "perfect" version iirc.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Darth Walrus posted:

That didn't stop them from being treated with religious reverence, though - in fact, that would be a great motivation for families to send their kids to have their brains eaten by giant robot demons. The status of the modern-day Seven Stars absolutely speaks to an ancient martyrdom culture.

We also know that at least one of the original pilots was the son of the original designer for both the Gundams and the Mobile Armors. That's not someone picked just because he was disposable.

There was also a promotional bit of writing I'm having trouble finding again where Todo got a picture of some of the original pilots, who were dressed better than any of the Tekkadan kids. Disposable, maybe, but not people you sell cheap.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

If you see me posting tell me to log off and get back to work on my Teledji fanfiction!!!

#1 Teledji Adeledji fan - Monetarists Did Nothing Wrong


chiasaur11 posted:

We also know that at least one of the original pilots was the son of the original designer for both the Gundams and the Mobile Armors. That's not someone picked just because he was disposable.

There was also a promotional bit of writing I'm having trouble finding again where Todo got a picture of some of the original pilots, who were dressed better than any of the Tekkadan kids. Disposable, maybe, but not people you sell cheap.

Scientist do make the most caring fathers in anime...

The operation to install the usb connections is implied to have been safer in the Calamity War era as it wasn't exclusively used on slave labour, but the physical and mental damage of piloting the gundam frames would likely have been the same as what we see when fighting mobile armours. Most of the pilots were as expendable as the frames themselves judging by how they find Flauros and Hashmal.

Rabbi Tupac
Jan 1, 2010

Heroes of the Storm
Goon Tournament Champion


I maintain that a Calamity War prequel would be sick.

The Notorious ZSB
Apr 19, 2004

I SAID WE'RE NOT GONNA BE FUCKING SUCK THIS YEAR!!!


Rabbi Tupac posted:

I maintain that a Calamity War prequel would be sick.

You are not wrong.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


I dunno. I think it works fine as a background to establish how hosed up the present situation is in IBO. It's like the cannibalism in late UC. It's a shocking detail to give you an idea of how bad the past was, but I think it works best that way rather than providing an in-depth "this is what happened" deal that a prequel would do.

Most prequels want to be The Silmarillion (which really isn't a prequel when you get down to it) but end up more like Phantom Menace where you're reaction is "that's it?" because nothing can measure up to your imagination getting nudged by the few details you are given for context.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



tsob posted:

The first forms of the Barbatos from early in the show probably aren't much better than a Graze, Rodi etc. since it's so removed from it's original design and had become rather decrepit with age and disuse. It's not until the Teiwaz engineers do some work restoring it to it's original loadout and performance that it starts to shine, really.


I'm never quite clear on this, but the version of the Alaya-Vijnana system that McGillis uses; is it the original, safe version that can be used on adults or was it a perfected version, better than that in use during the Calamity War?

It's the latter. Adults basically couldn't get AV surgery which is why it is basically the domain of child soldiers. Experimenting on Ein and so-on however eventually lead to a safer AV system. What limits it had are pretty hard to tell since it didn't last long but presumably it wasn't going to let you melt your own brain the way lovely AV did.

The original AV operations were probably significantly safer because they were being done by professionals and not cheapo doctors who consider a massive washout rate acceptable.

Ibblebibble
Nov 12, 2013




Of course Chip Chibidee's power-up music is America the Beautiful...

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Ibblebibble posted:

Of course Chip Chibidee's power-up music is America the Beautiful...

I believe that is exclusive to the dub but it is absolutely one of the best dub changes ever made.

Ibblebibble
Nov 12, 2013




ImpAtom posted:

I believe that is exclusive to the dub but it is absolutely one of the best dub changes ever made.

Yeah I checked the JP lines to see what they did there and it's a shame it wasn't the same dealio. I'm glad that I went dub for G Gundam, fits its energy very well.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


I like the no nonsense Canada man who uses a lumberjack Gundam and takes himself way too seriously. It's not the direct Canadian stereotype but it does ring true to our desperate need to find an identity.

Ibblebibble
Nov 12, 2013




I know that Neo Malaysia is repped by a monkey man in a giant skull orangutan robot and frankly its so far up the racism scale that it circles back around to cool again.

Ramadu
Aug 25, 2004

2015 NFL MVP




Arcsquad12 posted:

I dunno. I think it works fine as a background to establish how hosed up the present situation is in IBO. It's like the cannibalism in late UC. It's a shocking detail to give you an idea of how bad the past was, but I think it works best that way rather than providing an in-depth "this is what happened" deal that a prequel would do.

Most prequels want to be The Silmarillion (which really isn't a prequel when you get down to it) but end up more like Phantom Menace where you're reaction is "that's it?" because nothing can measure up to your imagination getting nudged by the few details you are given for context.

They blew up most of the moon

It would be sick as hell

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


Arcsquad12 posted:



Most prequels want to be The Silmarillion (which really isn't a prequel when you get down to it) but end up more like Phantom Menace where you're reaction is "that's it?" because nothing can measure up to your imagination getting nudged by the few details you are given for context.

idk the first four gundam the origin were pretty bad rear end

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Ramadu posted:

They blew up most of the moon

It would be sick as hell

It could be sick as hell, but, alas, Gundam has often had things that should be sick as hell actually suck. There's no guarantees.

That said, I'm kind of interested in Barbatos's story. There's implication in the old CGS diaries that the pilots were upperclass kids, which is a change, but the thing I'm curious about is how Barbatos, Flauros, and Hashmal were all found near each other on Mars.

Flauros and Hashmal were buried together, but Barbatos was loose and abandoned. Put it all together?

Barbatos and Flauros were probably hunting Angels together. A barrage of Dainsleif were enough to bury Hashmal, but Flauros was caught in the chaos too. So Barbatos's pilot saw a comrade in arms (probably one of the pilot's best friends) buried alive by friendlies, then being left to die because getting Flauros out might mean letting Hashmal run free.

Given that we're talking traumatized child soldiers already, seems likely enough to me that something like that would be enough make Barbatos's pilot go AWOL, assumed KIA. Nice, grim little story.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


sd gundam cross rays is cool but i wish a uc one was available on steam instead

Artum
Feb 13, 2012

DUN da dun dun da DUUUN

Soiled Meat

Wasn't the implication that if you got the proper implementation like mcgillis you don't get all the brain damage feedback?

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Artum posted:

Wasn't the implication that if you got the proper implementation like mcgillis you don't get all the brain damage feedback?

McGillis's link is very different from the 'traditional' Alaya-Vijnana links we see (it's much bigger and bulkier, and attaches to the lower back), and was created based on data from an extremely radical reimagining of the A-V System, so I assumed it was an all-new perfected model that was better than past designs.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012





Darth Walrus posted:

McGillis's link is very different from the 'traditional' Alaya-Vijnana links we see (it's much bigger and bulkier, and attaches to the lower back), and was created based on data from an extremely radical reimagining of the A-V System, so I assumed it was an all-new perfected model that was better than past designs.

I read it as "as close as the current tech can get to replicating it." Ein was the case study on what they'd need to do to integrate the technology with a fully developed nervous system, which was a technology lost in the centuries following the Calamity War. The folks in the outer spheres doing it to kids for cheap labor/soldiers only had half the manual, which is why it was so dangerous. In the inner spheres the technology was straight up taboo so of course no one was tripping over themselves to rediscover cybernetic augmentation.

Basically what I got from the explanations was that cybernetic augmentation was pretty straightforward during the Calamity War. Enough so that they could produce 80-something of these wack rear end demon frames with all the bells and whistles that use this man-machine interface to improve the control and reaction time. I don't recall if the story tells us how common such things actually were, but I feel comfortable inferring that there's a big "civilization in decline/a dark age" vibe around IBO, where the tech level during and prior to the Calamity War was higher than it is now.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

If you see me posting tell me to log off and get back to work on my Teledji fanfiction!!!

#1 Teledji Adeledji fan - Monetarists Did Nothing Wrong


Warmachine posted:

I read it as "as close as the current tech can get to replicating it." Ein was the case study on what they'd need to do to integrate the technology with a fully developed nervous system, which was a technology lost in the centuries following the Calamity War. The folks in the outer spheres doing it to kids for cheap labor/soldiers only had half the manual, which is why it was so dangerous. In the inner spheres the technology was straight up taboo so of course no one was tripping over themselves to rediscover cybernetic augmentation.

Basically what I got from the explanations was that cybernetic augmentation was pretty straightforward during the Calamity War. Enough so that they could produce 80-something of these wack rear end demon frames with all the bells and whistles that use this man-machine interface to improve the control and reaction time. I don't recall if the story tells us how common such things actually were, but I feel comfortable inferring that there's a big "civilization in decline/a dark age" vibe around IBO, where the tech level during and prior to the Calamity War was higher than it is now.

The Calamity War was clearly the result of an arms race between the economic blocs where they ended up unleashing autonomous mobile armours on one another so yeah, I'd say they got pretty advanced. It's a civilisation kept in deliberate "decline" under the oppressive glare of Gjallarhorn, who mothballed, banned and/or demonised all the deadliest toys of that era.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009


Warmachine posted:

Ein was the case study on what they'd need to do to integrate the technology with a fully developed nervous system, which was a technology lost in the centuries following the Calamity War.

It wasn't lost; the AV system that Tekkadan and other kids use is the one from the Calamity War - it's just that Gjallarhorn banned all research into AV in the aftermath, so there were zero improvements to the technology in the centuries that followed. McGillis restarted AV research in secret and in violation of the ban.

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

THERE'S FASCISM IN MY GIANT ROBOT ANIMES


yeah I haven't watched IBO in a while but I recall the explanation being pretty cut and dry "gjallarhorn has been doing illegal research behind the scenes on how the AV system works, Ein was a test run and McGillis' rig is the finalized version of the AV 2.0 system," with absolutely no implications or allusions to it being secret lost tech. In fact, IBO is pretty consistent about technology generally having advanced normally since the calamity war, with the exceptions (twin drive gundams, railguns, the mobile armors) only being so because either replicating it is an unnecessary pain in the rear end or literally a war crime.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


there has to be some technological stagnation/regression otherwise barbatos would not stand a chance against graze's even with mikazuki piloting it.

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

THERE'S FASCISM IN MY GIANT ROBOT ANIMES


Stairmaster posted:

there has to be some technological stagnation/regression otherwise barbatos would not stand a chance against graze's even with mikazuki piloting it.

not really, mikazuki is portrayed as just being Actually That Good from the start. Hell, if I recall a couple of the graze pilots in the first couple episodes even say stuff along the lines of "beating that antique should be easy" before they proceed to get owned incredibly hard.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Stairmaster posted:

there has to be some technological stagnation/regression otherwise barbatos would not stand a chance against graze's even with mikazuki piloting it.

The twin Ahab reactor system the Gundams have is literally the only piece of completely lost technology in the show.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



I mean mika is bullshit op like tobias but his gundam is also head and shoulders over the grazes. They're in suits designed and built for relatively light duties. Breaking up riots, stopping piracy, intimidating people.

It's like what do you thinks gonna win in a fight a swat tank or an M1 Abrams

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

If you see me posting tell me to log off and get back to work on my Teledji fanfiction!!!

#1 Teledji Adeledji fan - Monetarists Did Nothing Wrong


Darth Walrus posted:

The twin Ahab reactor system the Gundams have is literally the only piece of completely lost technology in the show.

So someone could start building another Hashmal?

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009


Stairmaster posted:

there has to be some technological stagnation/regression otherwise barbatos would not stand a chance against graze's even with mikazuki piloting it.

The "regression" is that the Graze was designed to look threatening and kill mobile workers and the odd weaponised industrial mobile suit, not fight war machines designed to gently caress up self-replicating giant murderbots.

The only other thing (other than AV) that Barbatos beats Grazes on is reactor output, because it has two reactors and Gjallarhorn just don't see the point in making MSes with two reactors because it hasn't been needed for hundreds of years.

People forget it takes about three episodes for the Barbatos to get refitted with modern armour and weapons.

Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Apr 8, 2021

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




sassassin posted:

So someone could start building another Hashmal?

Honestly, probably. I don't think anything about the Hashmal is lost, it's just that everyone understands it's a very bad idea to make one on multiple levels.

Every piece of technology it uses is either reproducible, obsolete, or a terrible idea nobody wants.

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

THERE'S FASCISM IN MY GIANT ROBOT ANIMES


hell, after looking it up I don't even necessarily think the twin-reactor system gundams use in IBO is a forgotten science, its just that gjallarhorn has direct control over all the resources you need to actually make the reactors and they don't see the value in whatever pain-in-the-rear end method is required to harmonize reactor pairs, because - again - they're largely concerned with putting down worker revolts and the occasional pirate crew, not actual MS-to-MS combat.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Was the Twin Reactor system even as big of a deal as it was in 00. Doubling your output is nice, but squaring your output lets you do poo poo like make beam sabers that can reach into space

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

hell, after looking it up I don't even necessarily think the twin-reactor system gundams use in IBO is a forgotten science, its just that gjallarhorn has direct control over all the resources you need to actually make the reactors and they don't see the value in whatever pain-in-the-rear end method is required to harmonize reactor pairs, because - again - they're largely concerned with putting down worker revolts and the occasional pirate crew, not actual MS-to-MS combat.

They don't use it even on their ultimate modern bleeding-edge Gundam-killers, the Graze Ein and Reginlaze Julia, which are the absolute definition of one-of-a-kind ace suits, so I'm willing to call it completely lost.

If Rustal had been able to give Julietta a second suit with the performance of the Kimaris Vidar, it seems reasonable to assume that he would have done so.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Darth Walrus posted:

The twin Ahab reactor system the Gundams have is literally the only piece of completely lost technology in the show.

I don't believe they have any idea how to recreate the artificial intelligence and replicator systems used in the Hashmal. Absolutely no one would want to recreate the former but there would definitely be a lot of use for the latter.

IBO Gekko has some examples of lost technology, too. They have no idea how to replicate the Astaroth's original weaponry because it had goofy poo poo like a sword that could coat itself in Ahab waves to help cut armor.

Gaius Marius posted:

Was the Twin Reactor system even as big of a deal as it was in 00. Doubling your output is nice, but squaring your output lets you do poo poo like make beam sabers that can reach into space

No, not really. It's a setting detail that explains why the Barbatos can be so physically strong despite being a junkheap kept in a storage hangar for an indefinite amount of time, but is barely ever mentioned again after the fact. The two factors that they really, really focus on as the markers of combat performance are pilot skill and the AV system.

The Reginlaze Julia certainly has no problems physically punching up with Gundam frames, despite being a single reactor unit.

Kanos fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Apr 8, 2021

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



The big advantage Barbatos has isn't pure power but that it was designed top to bottom as an AV machine and the kid who ended up inside of it happened to be the rare kid who was loving crazy enough to get multiple Whiskers AND felt comfortable with controlling the machine that way instinctively. If you had a Graze kitted out like Barbatos it probably would outperform most of the lower forms of Barbatos and some of the higher end suits would outperform Barbatos up until like Lupus Rex. The major factor in Gundams is the AV. Mika would not be anywhere as good pilot a without the AV system and Barbatos would probably be slightly better than average at best without the AV system, but the two of them together make something loving horrifying and self-destructive.

Mika is so terrifying in battle because he basically becomes his machine and has only the minimum amount of care at the consequences to his own body. That's not something anyone can match easily because it involves being a level of horrifyingly broken and self-destructive that you really can't get out of anyone not named Ein.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Kanos posted:

I don't believe they have any idea how to recreate the artificial intelligence and replicator systems used in the Hashmal. Absolutely no one would want to recreate the former but there would definitely be a lot of use for the latter.

IBO Gekko has some examples of lost technology, too. They have no idea how to replicate the Astaroth's original weaponry because it had goofy poo poo like a sword that could coat itself in Ahab waves to help cut armor.


No, not really. It's a setting detail that explains why the Barbatos can be so physically strong despite being a junkheap kept in a storage hangar for an indefinite amount of time, but is barely ever mentioned again after the fact. The two factors that they really, really focus on as the markers of combat performance are pilot skill and the AV system.

The Reginlaze Julia certainly has no problems physically punching up with Gundam frames, despite being a single reactor unit.

It does, to be honest. It's never shown to be as physically strong, and focuses on using its whip-swords to keep its distance and using its banks of thrusters and layers of armour to protect it. It's designed to survive against a Gundam more than it's designed to kill one. You also see this with the Grimgerde, which relies on agility and precision to take apart the vastly more powerful Kimaris.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Darth Walrus posted:

It does, to be honest. It's never shown to be as physically strong, and focuses on using its whip-swords to keep its distance and using its banks of thrusters and layers of armour to protect it. It's designed to survive against a Gundam more than it's designed to kill one. You also see this with the Grimgerde, which relies on agility and precision to take apart the vastly more powerful Kimaris.

It focuses on keeping its distance because Mika is an absolute horror in close range due to his insane reaction times and very distinctly non-robot method of moving. Anyone who wants to fight Mika basically has to stay back because if you get inside his range (especially once he's got his whip tail) you are hosed beyond all belief. It isn't even about Barbatos being strongest so much as responding to Mika's attacks requires an absurd amount of talent and an ability to deal with a combat style you're not going to see anywhere else in the world.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




ImpAtom posted:

It focuses on keeping its distance because Mika is an absolute horror in close range due to his insane reaction times and very distinctly non-robot method of moving. Anyone who wants to fight Mika basically has to stay back because if you get inside his range (especially once he's got his whip tail) you are hosed beyond all belief. It isn't even about Barbatos being strongest so much as responding to Mika's attacks requires an absurd amount of talent and an ability to deal with a combat style you're not going to see anywhere else in the world.

A large part of that is the Barbatos's extreme strength, though. Mika's fighting style being so brutal and animalistic wouldn't be nearly as much of a big deal if his suit couldn't cripple or destroy yours in a single blow. Just look at his notorious 'battle' against Carta and her guards - he just bulldozes straight through them.

Remember that mobile suits in the Post Disaster setting are seriously, insanely tough - the Barbatos being able to simply bludgeon them into tiny pieces with a club almost as big as it is is itself extraordinary.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Kanos posted:

No, not really. It's a setting detail that explains why the Barbatos can be so physically strong despite being a junkheap kept in a storage hangar for an indefinite amount of time, but is barely ever mentioned again after the fact. The two factors that they really, really focus on as the markers of combat performance are pilot skill and the AV system.

The Reginlaze Julia certainly has no problems physically punching up with Gundam frames, despite being a single reactor unit.

The Gundams were pretty constantly shown to outmuscle every opposing suit through season 1 except the Ein. (McGillis's win in the Valk was precision, not brute force). Just comparing the Dainsleif units, it took a whole dedicated suit to fire them with a Graze frame, complete with a second unit to just run ammo refills. Meanwhile, a Gundam can run two of those railguns at once.

The Reginlaze is the only single reactor suit that arguably gets close, and we don't even see anything from the Julia that matches Guision smashing an asteroid.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




chiasaur11 posted:

The Gundams were pretty constantly shown to outmuscle every opposing suit through season 1 except the Ein. (McGillis's win in the Valk was precision, not brute force). Just comparing the Dainsleif units, it took a whole dedicated suit to fire them with a Graze frame, complete with a second unit to just run ammo refills. Meanwhile, a Gundam can run two of those railguns at once.

The Reginlaze is the only single reactor suit that arguably gets close, and we don't even see anything from the Julia that matches Guision smashing an asteroid.

I mean, just look at whatever happens when the Julia goes up against the Barbatos. It can block a fair number of attacks and land a fair number of hits, but it can't really do anything to the Lupus Rex until Julietta gets a really big opening. Meanwhile, every time Mikazuki gets past her guard, he rips huge chunks off her suit. They're not operating anywhere near the same level of brute strength.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine


Darth Walrus posted:

Honestly, probably. I don't think anything about the Hashmal is lost, it's just that everyone understands it's a very bad idea to make one on multiple levels.

Every piece of technology it uses is either reproducible, obsolete, or a terrible idea nobody wants.

Honestly that would be a neat thing for a side story or sequel, someone digging up another MA but stripping out the Murder AI and instead sticking a cockpit on the thing

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply