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Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


Consider that human beings are natural murder intelligence

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wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


Stairmaster posted:

Consider that human beings are natural murder intelligence

This already how AV works so I think it's pretty considered.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


Darth Walrus posted:

Honestly, probably. I don't think anything about the Hashmal is lost, it's just that everyone understands it's a very bad idea to make one on multiple levels.

There's no way this is true, in Gundam generally or in real life for that matter. It might be true for a few decades after the Calamity War, but it's basically guaranteed that someone would think they know better, that they could program the AI to be benign or not to turn on people etc. within a few decades if the knowledge on how to make that technology existed; nevermind within 300 years. poo poo, one of the major conceits in IBO is that despite Gjallarhorn banning cyborgization that it's so rote outside Earth that child soldiers with cyborg parts are a disposable commodity. McGillis and Rustal both ignore their own organizations apparent bans on technology for their own plans too. It's hard to buy the idea that everyone just refrains from using technology that's understood but is demonstrably powerful just because it's a bad idea, when other such technologies are routinely ignored by multiple parties.

tsob fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Apr 8, 2021

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



I imagine building a mobile armor is kind of like building a nuke. Yes, theoretically the knowledge is out there and you could do it, but there's some very substantial practical barriers in the way of it

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


ninjewtsu posted:

I imagine building a mobile armor is kind of like building a nuke. Yes, theoretically the knowledge is out there and you could do it, but there's some very substantial practical barriers in the way of it

Those practical barriers don't really stop any determined nations from building them, and then are about 10 nations who had or have had nuclear weapons in the past. I was originally going to say that the barriers really only stop smaller nations, but North Korea is not exactly a powerhouse (geographically or financially) so that isn't even true. There have also been several individuals who have built nuclear reactors at home (which is a good stretch of the way toward it), and the Japanese cult Aum Shinrikyo are rumoured to have set off a nuclear bomb in the Australian outback in the 90s. So while those barriers may exist and may stop some people, they are not something that will stop everyone. Which, again, multiple people with substantial power in Gjallarhorn already ignore bans and taboos on technology just during the couple of years the show takes place over so I don't think you can make a good argument that everyone in Gjallarhorn just finds it too impractical to actually build a mobile armor even though it's actually theoretically possible.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012





I'm torn, because on one hand we have a strong example in nuclear weapons, but on the other the consequences of building strong AI mobile armors is very well known and apparent in IBO.

With nuclear weapons, the consequence is explained to be that via MAD, two powers in a mutual exchange of nuclear weapons will almost assuredly destroy each other. However this has never been seen in practice, and since the consequence of even one nuclear weapon hitting a major population center are immense, people who don't already have nuclear weapons want them to "level the playing field." The DPRK couldn't hope to actually deal a crippling blow to the United States, but by demonstrating the capability to turn Seattle or San Francisco (Or Seoul or Tokyo) into a radioactive crater they functionally created a suicide vest: If the US/ROK try to be belligerent toward them, they can make that costly since the DPRK's enemies would be extremely loath to lose a major city.

By this reasoning, any small power who does not have a nuclear weapon has strong incentive to acquire one, as a "fleet in being."

To contrast with mobile armors, IBO is a setting were the nuclear apocalypse did happen: mobile armors were built, used in warfare, MAD occurred and everyone lost. The consequence has been demonstrated, and the moon is implied to be a permanent reminder of this. Everyone with an interest knows the score, and has a very strong motivation to 1) not make one themselves because 2) everyone else will gang up on them to push their poo poo in immediately. If one of the blocs do it, the other three and Gjallarhorn are going to step on their neck, everything else be damned. If a criminal syndicate figures it out, Gjallarhorn and the other syndicates will step on their neck. If some random pirate group pulls it off, literally everyone in the Sol system is going to bumrush those guys and spare no expense exterminating them. If a city is lost in the process? Oh well, better than losing the entire human race.

And if Gjallarhorn does it? They will immediately lose all credibility, probably schism between the traditionalists and whatever the pro-MA side call themselves, and the rest of the system will quickly militarize to take advantage of the chaos and push Gjallarhorn's poo poo in. And there's strong evidence that Gjallarhorn wouldn't even consider this. The Ein business was awfully close, but when the Hashmal was found, even McGillis paused.

To further complicate, I think that even if Gjallarhorn can make a mobile armor, and assuming the concerns above were a no factor, Gjallarhorn still wouldn't because why waste the resources on it? Gjallarhorn doesn't need a superweapon capable of exterminating millions or billions of people.

I think ultimately that even if (big if) the major powers have the capability of building a mobile armor, there's simply not enough reward in it to risk the other major powers turning on them the moment a sniff of intelligence regarding the project leaked. And if (bigger if) a minor power tried it, lol get hosed. Gjallarhorn is the only group with the practical means to do it (chiefly Ahab Reactors), but simply have no need of them.

Things like the AV are small potatoes, and furthermore the taboo here is more "ew a disgusting subhuman machine hybrid" than "this child could end all of humanity."

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Even if they would theoretically be able to, there's no real reason for factions in Gjallarhorn to want to build a mobile armor, at least not something like the Hashmal. They don't need that kind of power to keep the boot on the proles - giant battleship fleets and armies of Grazes are more than sufficient for that. They don't even need that kind of power for low level internal conflict, which can be resolved by political maneuvering and public shaming(see: Iznario's power grab attempt resulting in his disgrace due to McGillis's maneuvering).

If, say, someone wanted to start an open coup(besides McGillis, who would never use an autonomous weapon because it runs against his personal ethos), building what amounts to your entire organization's Greatest Enemy Boogeyman seems like a really great way to instantaneously unite every single other faction against you and galvanize them to wipe you and yours from existence with everything in their power. To overcome that kind of unified opposition, you'd need to build a whole bunch of mobile armors, which might force the opposition into building their own to counterbalance you, and then whoopsie doodle we're primed for Calamity War Part Two: Revengeance.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


Warmachine posted:

IBO is a setting were the nuclear apocalypse did happen: mobile armors were built, used in warfare, MAD occurred and everyone lost. The consequence has been demonstrated, and the moon is implied to be a permanent reminder of this.

Mobile armors did not cause the state of the Moon in Post Disaster; dainsleifs did. If the Moon is a reminder of anything it's a reminder of that. It's obviously not much of a reminder though, because Rustal used them as soon as it became opportune for him to do so. Now, the ones used on the Moon were apparently special ones with a particular type of warhead attached or something, which isn't what Rustal used, but by that logic you could make the same argument about the mobile armors in PD i.e. that if it was possible to construct them then someone would make what they think is a safe version of them. In fact, that's just what I did initially while expressing my disbelief that the technology isn't lost, because if it was, then someone would still be using it in some form.

Also, putting down rebellions and other small jobs that Grazes can do would be even easier with automated machines that don't even require pilots. As would setting up the populace and then slaughtering them for buying into your trap, since it severely limits any witnesses or informats. It doesn't have to be full on Hashmal to do it either; just having a unit with some degree of automation will do that. Beam weapons seem like they'd be a lot better at destroying groups of people in an area than even dainsleifs too, for that matter, since they don't leave big impact holes but can wipe out large swathes of people in very little time.

All of which ignores the fundamental human nature of "well, maybe they screwed it up last time but I can do it right!".

tsob fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Apr 8, 2021

jackhunter64
Aug 28, 2008

My clothes are soaking wet from dawn to dusk.



drrockso20 posted:

Honestly that would be a neat thing for a side story or sequel, someone digging up another MA but stripping out the Murder AI and instead sticking a cockpit on the thing

Back when Wing was on TV here I drew an ORIGINAL CHARACTER DO NOT STEAL who was a clone of Heero but piloted a modified Virgo with a cockpit block installed and a V-fin on the head.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

tsob posted:

Also, putting down rebellions and other small jobs that Grazes can do would be even easier with automated machines that don't even require pilots. As would setting up the populace and then slaughtering them for buying into your trap, since it severely limits any witnesses or informats. It doesn't have to be full on Hashmal to do it either; just having a unit with some degree of automation will do that. Beam weapons seem like they'd be a lot better at destroying groups of people in an area than even dainsleifs too, for that matter, since they don't leave big impact holes but can wipe out large swathes of people in very little time.

All of which ignores the fundamental human nature of "well, maybe they screwed it up last time but I can do it right!".

There's a fundamental human nature of "well, maybe they screwed it up last time but I can do it right", but there's also a fundamental human nature of "I have to be careful about what lines I cross or else all of the other people will loving kill me".

Even Rustal, who at that point was the effective champion of the status quo, in command of the largest fleet in Gjallarhorn which was loyal to him alone, felt that it was politically necessary to stage a false flag operation to paint McGillis as the Dirty Dainsleif User and clearly it was only in self-defense that Rustal had to sigh and unsheath his hanzo railguns. Deploying something like an autonomous AI unit would be several orders of magnitude worse. Dainsleifs are taboo because they're a weapon that singlehandedly undermines Gjallarhorn's ability to maintain the status quo by allowing anyone to pop mobile suits and battleships from range with ease. They're forbidden because they're inconvenient and disruptive to the neo-feudal order Gjallarhorn represents. AI controlled drones are taboo because they went out of control and nearly killed all of humanity. For every scientist or scheming politician who might go "well this time will be different", there's going to be a dozen other scheming politicians who are going to alternatively respond with either "HOLY gently caress ARE YOU loving INSANE?" or "well drat I guess I need to make my own even stronger and less restricted murderbots so I don't lose the arms race".

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



I think the big thing is that there's really a pretty poor risk-benefit ratio when it comes to mobile armors.

Like what do you get out of being the crazy rear end in a top hat who "makes it work?" Some reduction in pilot salary costs? Who gives a poo poo

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

If you see me posting tell me to log off and get back to work on my Teledji fanfiction!!!

#1 Teledji Adeledji fan - Monetarists Did Nothing Wrong


ninjewtsu posted:

I think the big thing is that there's really a pretty poor risk-benefit ratio when it comes to mobile armors.

Like what do you get out of being the crazy rear end in a top hat who "makes it work?" Some reduction in pilot salary costs? Who gives a poo poo

Yeah IBO sure was full of rational actors who thought through the consequences of their actions, and not people overreaching through desperation or childhood fantasy or some combination of the two. Certainly no rampant oppression or power struggles taking place that would lead to developing new advantages in armaments.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

ninjewtsu posted:

I think the big thing is that there's really a pretty poor risk-benefit ratio when it comes to mobile armors.

Like what do you get out of being the crazy rear end in a top hat who "makes it work?" Some reduction in pilot salary costs? Who gives a poo poo

Surely after a century or so of not paying pilots and maintaining cheap crapbucket Grazes, you'll have paid off part of the budget you spent researching and manufacturing autonomous murderbots for your routine policing duties, assuming that you're still alive and haven't been killed by either the autonomous murderbots or people who are horrified that you built autonomous murderbots.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


Kanos posted:

There's a fundamental human nature of "well, maybe they screwed it up last time but I can do it right", but there's also a fundamental human nature of "I have to be careful about what lines I cross or else all of the other people will loving kill me".

Even Rustal, who at that point was the effective champion of the status quo, in command of the largest fleet in Gjallarhorn which was loyal to him alone, felt that it was politically necessary to stage a false flag operation to paint McGillis as the Dirty Dainsleif User and clearly it was only in self-defense that Rustal had to sigh and unsheath his hanzo railguns. Deploying something like an autonomous AI unit would be several orders of magnitude worse. Dainsleifs are taboo because they're a weapon that singlehandedly undermines Gjallarhorn's ability to maintain the status quo by allowing anyone to pop mobile suits and battleships from range with ease. They're forbidden because they're inconvenient and disruptive to the neo-feudal order Gjallarhorn represents. AI controlled drones are taboo because they went out of control and nearly killed all of humanity. For every scientist or scheming politician who might go "well this time will be different", there's going to be a dozen other scheming politicians who are going to alternatively respond with either "HOLY gently caress ARE YOU loving INSANE?" or "well drat I guess I need to make my own even stronger and less restricted murderbots so I don't lose the arms race".

Dainsleifs aren't just a thing that can pop a mobile suit with ease and undermines Gjallarhorn's monopoly on power though, because they were the weapons that reconfigured the Moon. Which, you said it yourself, is there as a permanent reminder of the folly of the Calamity War and it's mistakes. Which is putting aside that just because the mobile armor is the worst case scenario of the technology in question does not mean that it can't be utilized in other fields or other ways. An automated unit doesn't need to have actual AI to be automated. Nor does it need AI to be capable of self-repair or replication among other things. There are a number of technologies in use on the mobile armors beyond AI that aren't in use anywhere in the setting so far as we know.

ninjewtsu posted:

Like what do you get out of being the crazy rear end in a top hat who "makes it work?" Some reduction in pilot salary costs? Who gives a poo poo

Seriously? You could ask that about a lot of things in the real world, and the answer is always "the rich gently caress who despite having a bajillion dollars wants to have a bajillion and one dollars, and would rather see his bank balance rise by a fraction of a fraction of a percent than share that wealth in any way, shape or form."

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



The difference is in the real world those people with a bajillion dollars arent generally risking the extermination of all life (including themselves) to get that additional 1 dollar. There are other, safer investments to make (like, say, dangerous surgery on child soldiers, which is cheap, effective, doesn't require additional research costs, and comes are very low risk to getting the people with a bajillion dollars killed)

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


You say that like the blowback on them backing some scientist is going to fall on them, rather than on the scientist and maybe his direct superiors. At worst the actual rich person will just get quietly removed from power the way Iznario did.

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



Well the consequences are potentially "everyone (including me) dies." Forget the political opinion poo poo. Like if the first nuke actually did ignite the atmosphere and kill almost everyone on earth I think the cost benefit of building one would be a little diffeeent

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

If you see me posting tell me to log off and get back to work on my Teledji fanfiction!!!

#1 Teledji Adeledji fan - Monetarists Did Nothing Wrong


ninjewtsu posted:

The difference is in the real world those people with a bajillion dollars arent generally risking the extermination of all life (including themselves) to get that additional 1 dollar.

Maybe not so directly, but...

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


ninjewtsu posted:

Well the consequences are potentially "everyone (including me) dies." Forget the political opinion poo poo. Like if the first nuke actually did ignite the atmosphere and kill almost everyone on earth I think the cost benefit of building one would be a little diffeeent

I can imagine someone rich living on a different planet not being as concerned, even putting aside that I think a lot of politicians would put the reward of "more money/power" over any amount of risk. And that "and thus it'd kill everyone" isn't even a risk I think a lot of people are actually capable of processing. The people alive during the Calamity War and it's direct aftermath, sure. Maybe even the people for a generation or two afterwards while things are rebuilding. I don't see someone 10 generations down the line imagining it though, same as most people have trouble imagining any number in to the millions or above. At some point the numbers just become meaningless beyond "lots". Which is itself putting aside that lots of politicians obviously are willing to kill lots of people for some power, and the last century has numerous examples of people causing the death of millions to advance their own power or ideology.

This is all basically quibbling over details though. The original point was about whether or not the technology is lost, and unless there's some direct evidence otherwise even in the lore then I can't see any reason to believe it hasn't been. Mobile suit technology in general seems to have regressed to a large degree in PD, as was discussed over the previous page with regards to unit strength due to reactor power, and there's no sign of the kind of technology that defined the Hashmal in use anywhere else. If it's not, then I don't see any reason to presume that someone could build it. They just don't want to. But they definitely could. The fact McGillis had to go out of his way to research the Alaya-Vijnana process using human subjects to improve it beyond the way it had been used for decades if not centuries points to things have being lost too. As does the fact even dainsleifs, the things that nearly destroyed the Moon, are only capable of tiny damage relative to what they caused in the Calamity War.

tsob fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Apr 8, 2021

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012





sassassin posted:

Yeah IBO sure was full of rational actors who thought through the consequences of their actions, and not people overreaching through desperation or childhood fantasy or some combination of the two. Certainly no rampant oppression or power struggles taking place that would lead to developing new advantages in armaments.

That's what enabled Tekkadan and McGillis to get as far as they did: everyone else actually was these normal, level headed actors who aren't going to rock the boat.

tsob posted:

You say that like the blowback on them backing some scientist is going to fall on them, rather than on the scientist and maybe his direct superiors. At worst the actual rich person will just get quietly removed from power the way Iznario did.

My argument balances on the social pressure and consequences of not complying. It's not that the mad engineer is afraid of ending the world--he's afraid of the world ending him. Which I argue is exactly what would happen the moment a sniff of intel that he was working on a mobile armor project reached literally anyone's ears.

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



Are mobile armors not capable of interplanetary travel? If they were only on Mars or something I don't see why gundams would've been necessary when mobile armors have no means of stopping an orbital bombardment or whatever

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

tsob posted:

Dainsleifs aren't just a thing that can pop a mobile suit with ease and undermines Gjallarhorn's monopoly on power though, because they were the weapons that reconfigured the Moon. Which, you said it yourself, is there as a permanent reminder of the folly of the Calamity War and it's mistakes. Which is putting aside that just because the mobile armor is the worst case scenario of the technology in question does not mean that it can't be utilized in other fields or other ways. An automated unit doesn't need to have actual AI to be automated. Nor does it need AI to be capable of self-repair or replication among other things. There are a number of technologies in use on the mobile armors beyond AI that aren't in use anywhere in the setting so far as we know.

We see Dainsleifs in action. We see a LOT of Dainsleifs in action - enough to destroy McGillis's entire rebel fleet at a stroke. Even that's not remotely enough to cause a tiny fraction of the amount of damage required to blow up the goddamn moon.

Literally the only thing that prompted the deployment of Dainsleifs on such an insane scale that they could be capable of something as ludicrous as destroying the moon were nigh-unstoppable, self-replicating mobile armors.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

If you see me posting tell me to log off and get back to work on my Teledji fanfiction!!!

#1 Teledji Adeledji fan - Monetarists Did Nothing Wrong


Warmachine posted:

That's what enabled Tekkadan and McGillis to get as far as they did: everyone else actually was these normal, level headed actors who aren't going to rock the boat.

lol yeah, so many sensible people among the mobsters and child molesters and fangirl officers.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012





sassassin posted:

lol yeah, so many sensible people among the mobsters and child molesters and fangirl officers.

Did you see them trying to upend the political balance of the entire solar system?

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


ninjewtsu posted:

Are mobile armors not capable of interplanetary travel? If they were only on Mars or something I don't see why gundams would've been necessary when mobile armors have no means of stopping an orbital bombardment or whatever

We have no idea, and they may have been delibarety taken to Mars from Earth (or vice versa) by humans before they went full murderbot for all anyone knows. The Hashmal certainly didn't seem like something capable of interplanetary travel on it's own, and it's the only version we have information on to use as an example.

Kanos posted:

We see Dainsleifs in action. We see a LOT of Dainsleifs in action - enough to destroy McGillis's entire rebel fleet at a stroke. Even that's not remotely enough to cause a tiny fraction of the amount of damage required to blow up the goddamn moon.

Literally the only thing that prompted the deployment of Dainsleifs on such an insane scale that they could be capable of something as ludicrous as destroying the moon were nigh-unstoppable, self-replicating mobile armors.

The dainsleifs we see in action couldn't do that to the Moon even if you rained a billion of them down from on high. If they were indeed the things that damaged the Moon then they did so with some major upgrades over what we see in the show. Which is kind of my point; that just because something is taboo doesn't mean someone wouldn't be trying to use some version of it despite the risks or bans. When it comes to dainsleifs it's just a dumbfire piece of metal with no warhead or anything. When it comes to mobile armors, it could be anything short of "and it has artificial intelligence" without being particularly dangerous. It's form isn't dangerous on it's own, and using AV inputs, a human could control one perfectly fine. It's beam weapon is better at killing civilians than regular chemical weapons. It's ability to self-replicate or self-repair isn't dangerous without an AI. We see no evidence of any of it in use in PD though. Which makes me think it can't be used; not that people just all avoid it because of taboo despite the fact it poses no inherent danger without an AI.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009


Mobile armours serve literally no purpose in peace or warfare. They do not exist to project state power. They're not a byproduct of useful research with a combat application. Their one and only function is to indiscriminately murder civilians. They don't even work as a deterrent because they can't be controlled (or even aimed, unless your plan is to drop one somewhere to cause damage and hope you're able to fight it off when it comes back for you later).

Anyone who tried to develop a new MA would have to be an omnicidal nutter by definition.

Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Apr 8, 2021

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


It's probably a good thing I'm not talking about building mobile armors as they exist ala the Hashmal then, and have pointed out numerous times that the technology inherent to them has other uses and is not dangerous piecemeal beyond the AI element. And maybe not even then, depending on context.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009


tsob posted:

It's probably a good thing I'm not talking about building mobile armors as they exist ala the Hashmal then, and have pointed out numerous times that the technology inherent to them has other uses and is not dangerous piecemeal beyond the AI element. And maybe not even then, depending on context.

Without AI it's literally just a big loving mobile suit, and not mobile armour.

And for the Nth time: this is not technology worth pursuing in a world that is largely at peace and with a profitable status quo. It's also not technology you can afford to build if you are one of the many people not benefitting from said status quo.

IBO is literally a world in which the Graze is the pinnacle of MS research because MSes are largely obsolete (until Tekkadan's win makes "child soldiers in mobile suits" something of proven efficacy worth investing in at the start of season 2).

Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Apr 8, 2021

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~


Yes, there is absolutely no use for self replication or self-repairing machines in a society like PD, and the totalitarian government that regularly sets up their own people to rebel so they can quash said rebellion and keep people meek would have no use for weapons that are better at killing civilians than the ones they normally use. Absolutely. They're at peace (kind of; if you squint real hard), so all that technology is completely useless.

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



tsob posted:

We have no idea, and they may have been delibarety taken to Mars from Earth (or vice versa) by humans before they went full murderbot for all anyone knows. The Hashmal certainly didn't seem like something capable of interplanetary travel on it's own, and it's the only version we have information on to use as an example.


Well, again, if they cant, then why are gundams necessary over orbital danslief bombardment or whatever?

MAs were an existential threat. Presumably that rules out the existence of any "safe" means of eliminating them. Hence the need for child soldiers with direct neural links to giant robots

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

If you see me posting tell me to log off and get back to work on my Teledji fanfiction!!!

#1 Teledji Adeledji fan - Monetarists Did Nothing Wrong


Warmachine posted:

Did you see them trying to upend the political balance of the entire solar system?

Yeah. In the first season Tekkadan and McGillis are just being swept up in the schemes of Kudelia, Gordon etc. Carta and Ein both go wildly off-book in their pursuit of their perceived duties, and Mika's only crime is matching their obstinacy and beating them for ability to deliver a savage beating.

sassassin fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Apr 8, 2021

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012





sassassin posted:

Yeah. In the first season Tekkadan and McGillis are just being swept up in the schemes of Kudelia, Gordon etc. Carta or Ein both go wildly off-book in their pursuit of their perceived duties, and Mika's only crime is matching their obstinacy and beating them for ability to deliver a savage beating.

Kudelia's purpose is to die and be a martyr. We see how that normally plays out at the Dorts. Carta and Ein are only off book because Tekkadan existed in the first place (Carta was a blowhard, but she was stuck in a ceremonial do-nothing position while the Ahrianrod skullfucked anything that got remotely close to her jurisdiction), and Ein is only relevant because McGillis chopped him up to figure out how the AV system worked.

Tekkadan throws all of this out the window. Kudelia was chatting with the Arbrau government, but if Orga hadn't couped the CGS, she'd have never made it off planet in anything other than a body bag. Then there'd be a revolt on Mars, Gjallarhorn would come, some fake weapons would find their way to the protestors, tale as old as time. Gordon's attempt to fix the situation was to order Fumitan to get Kudelia killed at the Dorts, but that flunks out because Fumitan went native and eats the bullet instead.

The entire reason any of this plays out like it does is that Orga stepped in, formed Tekkadan, and with Mika's help had the audacity to not die quietly. So, in short, no. No one else was upending the political balance of the entire solar system--via the creation of new mobile armors or otherwise.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

If you see me posting tell me to log off and get back to work on my Teledji fanfiction!!!

#1 Teledji Adeledji fan - Monetarists Did Nothing Wrong


Warmachine posted:

No one else was upending the political balance of the entire solar system--via the creation of new mobile armors or otherwise.

Iznario Fareed. Or was that Tekkadan's fault as well?

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012





sassassin posted:

Iznario Fareed. Or was that Tekkadan's fault as well?

What exactly was a puppet PM in Arbrau going to do in the grand scheme of things? Let Gjallarhorn operate on Earth? Turn Arbrau into a Gjallarhorn sovereign state?

Not likely--the end game here is boring rear end corruption and probably some new kids for Fareed to diddle.

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



Was iznario upending the political balance of the solar system????

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





sassassin posted:

lol yeah, so many sensible people among the mobsters and child molesters and fangirl officers.

Yes. Yes there were.

The mobsters made sure to have Gjallarhorn in the loop when making big plays, with Jasley only making aggressive moves once he was sure he had the Arianrhod fleet keeping everything looking "above board", and maintaining status quo.

Izanio was playing backroom politics. He went too far and got tossed out in the cold, but the plan for most of its duration was "Get Makanai out of the way with corruption charges, encourage the election of my candidate, profit." Corrupt and vile, yes, and in the long run it would undermine Gjallarhorn's authority, but it's just skimming off the pot, not upending the table.

And Carta just... did her job. Which everyone else tried to keep as ineffective as possible, but everything she did was technically by the book, and only caused by Tekkadan.

For the most part, PD lacks the kind of lunatics that define most Gundam settings, and the biggest exception (McGillis) is fundamentally opposed to Mobile Armors on principle.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Iznario didn't even go too far for Gjallarhorn politics. He was setting up a very standard backroom power grab deal done entirely through a rigged political process with no violence or revolution involved, and he was only exposed and disgraced because of McGillis throwing a gigantic wrench into the process and escalating the situation far beyond what was originally intended and making things very public and embarrassing.

Hell, Rustal is doing something way worse and more destabilizing than what Iznario was pulling at the beginning of IBO S2 - he sent Galan to deliberately incite and stoke a war between Arbrau and the SAU specifically to make McGillis look bad. The difference is that Rustal was better about covering his tracks and didn't have an inside man deliberately sabotaging it.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Kanos posted:

Iznario didn't even go too far for Gjallarhorn politics. He was setting up a very standard backroom power grab deal done entirely through a rigged political process with no violence or revolution involved, and he was only exposed and disgraced because of McGillis throwing a gigantic wrench into the process and escalating the situation far beyond what was originally intended and making things very public and embarrassing.

Hell, Rustal is doing something way worse and more destabilizing than what Iznario was pulling at the beginning of IBO S2 - he sent Galan to deliberately incite and stoke a war between Arbrau and the SAU specifically to make McGillis look bad. The difference is that Rustal was better about covering his tracks and didn't have an inside man deliberately sabotaging it.

Izanio went too far when he sent troops to Edmonton. Rustal did worse, but as far as anyone could prove, it was just some mercs going off script while Gjallarhorn tried to restore order. (And he made sure to keep the warfare small scale. Nothing he couldn't reel in when he was done emphasizing how dangerous it was for countries to have their own armed forces.) Meanwhile, Izanio's own troops were talking about how maybe they weren't supposed to be here.

Izanio did less, but he slipped up more, and for an organization like Gjallarhorn, dotting the "i"s matters more than little things like morality.

Also, the new SD Gundam anime started. Half hour episodes.

Considering the 15 minute ones for the last anime felt like they lasted weeks, I might tap out before finishing the pilot.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

chiasaur11 posted:

Izanio went too far when he sent troops to Edmonton. Rustal did worse, but as far as anyone could prove, it was just some mercs going off script while Gjallarhorn tried to restore order. (And he made sure to keep the warfare small scale. Nothing he couldn't reel in when he was done emphasizing how dangerous it was for countries to have their own armed forces.) Meanwhile, Izanio's own troops were talking about how maybe they weren't supposed to be here.

Izanio did less, but he slipped up more, and for an organization like Gjallarhorn, dotting the "i"s matters more than little things like morality.

That was my entire point? Iznario only had to escalate to that point because McGillis deliberately engineered the situation that way, and even the escalation of putting troops in Edmonton probably would have been overlooked entirely with sufficient political maneuvering if not for Ein going completely insane and rampaging into the city itself and also revealing that Gjallarhorn were hypocrites regarding cyborgs, which was also entirely set up by McGillis.

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Argas
Jan 13, 2008
SRW Fanatic






Gaius Marius posted:

Was the Twin Reactor system even as big of a deal as it was in 00. Doubling your output is nice, but squaring your output lets you do poo poo like make beam sabers that can reach into space

It's hard to get a firm idea at least partly because IBO doesn't really have a direct output the way 00 straight up uses particle count from reactor output to beam strength. The ahab reactors do something which can cause gravitational anomalies when the reactors have been damaged and left alone in space for too long. This something emits ahab waves which can be detected, and then the something is used to generate electricity which does everything else.

The Gundams are clearly working off a much more powerful base frame, so we have to assume the twin reactor is part of it. It's also more than just slapping two reactors in parallel or something, because it's clearly not a thing anyone does. The Vidar also packs a third reactor solely for the purpose of camouflaging its otherwise recognizable signature, and it gets dumped when the disguise comes off and seemingly with no impact on its performance (Though it's basically a different unit altogether then, but if that third reactor was producing any juice, it wasn't getting used).

To me, the simple answer is that reactor output just doesn't convert to MS ability beyond a point. It gives the Gundam frames an edge but we aren't seeing all that juice being put into one attack. It's still probably producing more juice than slapping two reactors together, which may also be a physics impossibility given that nobody gets the clever idea of doing that. Even the original frame engineers didn't do that. Clearly the Gundam frame's dual reactor setup is unique and cannot be replicated or substituted on the cheap ala many many GN Drives. It's unlikely it's a proximity issue since MS can get very close to one another, basically physically touching without their reactors doing anything weird.

Ultimately, better output but the arrangement is a pain in the rear end at best, literally impossible for most groups' technological base at worst. More power is nice but it's only doing so much for MS performance. It's an ideal setup if you're bringing the fewest units and want them to be as strong as possible but Gjallarhorn does not have this problem and the one time it's come up, it's because fighting the mobile armor with numbers up close was basically self-defeating with how fast it moved. And it wasn't outperforming everyone in the field because of its reactor output, but because their piloting interface, whether standard or AV, simply wasn't up to the job. Without ranged weapons on par with dainsleifs, they had to fight the mobile armor up close and in such a situation, you'd probably want the fewest amount of friendly units to avoid interfering with anyone while each unit packs the largest punch it can.

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