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How big an improvement is the Gundam mk ii over it's predecessor?
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May 27, 2020 06:27
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Stairmaster posted:How big an improvement is the Gundam mk ii over it's predecessor? Pretty decenly. It is more mobile than the Gundam as it was the first movable frame mobile suit. It's weapons were higher power (not that this is easy to compare in series, just on tech specs), with the rifle being reloadable with e-pacs compared to the original that was useless when it ran out of ammo. The shield was a bit better since it was collapsible, and the cockpit had a huge improvement with the panoramic display and linear seating. It has two weaknesses to the Gundam. The first is that it uses shittier armor, rather than the Gundam OP lunar titanium. Since everything and it's dog has a beam rifle this is less of an issue than it would otherwise be, however. The other issue is that it doesn't naturally carry vulcans, but it can be equipped with pods for the same purpose. Overall the mk2 was a better suit for its era, it just got outclassed quickly as the new wave of designs hit. Amusingly it probably would have been good for late war amuro (similar to the Alex), but would have gotten him killed if it had replaced the Gundam from day one. Caros fucked around with this message at 06:53 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 06:49
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Stairmaster posted:How big an improvement is the Gundam mk ii over it's predecessor? Barely one at all*, if I recall correctly it's basically inferior to pretty much every other Gundam that's been introduced in later fiction as existing in UC during the 0079 to 0084 period besides the Ground Gundam *at least in-universe, most games that include both the RX-78 and the MK-II tend to give them much more of a difference for gameplay balance reasons
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May 27, 2020 06:53
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Stairmaster posted:How big an improvement is the Gundam mk ii over it's predecessor? Depends on the metric you're using. Practically, you could argue that the Alex was a better suit. The Mk. II didn't even have integrated vulcans. If we're talking as a development platform? Huge leap forward. Movable frame tech was a massive shift to MS design that allowed suits like the Zeta to come to be.
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May 27, 2020 06:58
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The Gundam Mark II was stated in show not to be a very significant upgrade to the original Gundam, but it had a lot of new baseline features which ended up being used for later units. The Super Gundam was basically an attempt to keep the base unit and give it something more up to date. That said the original Gundam wasn't a bad unit by any means. The vast majority of its flaws came from being a first-gen mobile suit with a completely unprepared for superpilot. Once Amuro had magnetic coating the Gundam was pretty arguably the best thing on the field in the OYW besides the Zeong. Sidestory stuff like the Alex was theoretically better but never had the chance to shine. The Gundam Mk. II in the hands of a talented pilot was still a brutally powerful machine because it had relatively high specs and the Zeta era was one where a strong beam rifle and good mobility was enough to make you a beast if your pilot was a Newtype. Even if other units had higher specs they tended to be more specialized or, more critically, put in the hands of pilots who couldn't use those specs to their full capability. Having bigger numbers doesn't matter if your pilot is only getting 80% of the potential out of the suit. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:07 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 07:05
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ImpAtom posted:The Gundam Mk. II in the hands of a talented pilot was still a brutally powerful machine because it had relatively high specs and the Zeta era was one where a strong beam rifle and good mobility was enough to make you a beast if your pilot was a Newtype. Even if other units had higher specs they tended to be more specialized or, more critically, put in the hands of pilots who couldn't use those specs to their full capability. Having bigger numbers doesn't matter if your pilot is only getting 80% of the potential out of the suit. Elle Vianno holding back half of the Neo Zeon army all by herself, offscreen.
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May 27, 2020 07:16
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Stairmaster posted:How big an improvement is the Gundam mk ii over it's predecessor? 
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May 27, 2020 07:45
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Warmachine posted:It was in fact a Guncannon. Different character. The games Sayla shows up much earlier and joins the group in a GM Command.
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May 27, 2020 12:47
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Rewatched Char's Counterattack recently. I give it a 3 out of 5. -1 for existence of Quess. -1 for existence of Hathoway.
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May 27, 2020 17:00
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amigolupus posted:Elle Vianno holding back half of the Neo Zeon army all by herself, offscreen. I will never stop bringing that up.
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May 27, 2020 17:21
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The mark ii looks crappy in comparison to the other suits that came before largely as a result of side stories introducing stuff like the gp03 and stuff like ex-s gundam somehow showing up like six months after the mark ii did.
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May 27, 2020 17:22
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MonsieurChoc posted:I will never stop bringing that up. Remember also how Judau spent most of the early episodes struggling with the Zeta's controls, and Elle mastered it on her first go.
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May 27, 2020 17:23
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Burns posted:Rewatched Char's Counterattack recently. I give it a 3 out of 5. -1 for existence of Quess. -1 for existence of Hathoway. +1 for 'This one's a real rock'
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May 27, 2020 17:29
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Darth Walrus posted:Remember also how Judau spent most of the early episodes struggling with the Zeta's controls, and Elle mastered it on her first go. They always give her crappy stats in SRW and that's a crime.
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May 27, 2020 17:39
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I’m trying to remember something about the Rick Dias. Where is it first established that it was the “Gamma Gundam”? Is that in Zeta or on a model kit maybe?
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May 28, 2020 04:40
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HitTheTargets posted:I’m trying to remember something about the Rick Dias. Where is it first established that it was the “Gamma Gundam”? Is that in Zeta or on a model kit maybe? It's definitely not in Zeta proper.
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May 28, 2020 05:12
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It's probably in the side notes of a model kit or something. I think the only time it was recognized in any easy to point to form was the Build Gamma Gundam,
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May 28, 2020 05:25
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HitTheTargets posted:I’m trying to remember something about the Rick Dias. Where is it first established that it was the “Gamma Gundam”? Is that in Zeta or on a model kit maybe? Google says M-msv from the 90s,which sounds right given the concept art.
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May 28, 2020 08:06
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I started reading those Gundam novels, and the first chapter introduced the trainee pilots onboard the Pegasus. Amuro Ray, Kai Shiden, Ryu Jose, Hayato Kobayashi, and Sean. Sean doesn't last long.
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May 28, 2020 12:18
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https://twitter.com/Kars_From_Zeon/status/1264678461248909312
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May 28, 2020 13:00
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I understand that the Gundam novels were written with the idea that the people reading them were already familiar with Gundam, but I still think it was a bad idea to explain Char's entire backstory as soon as we meet him on the Musai heading to Side 7. Like, literally as it's describing what he looks like it says, Sha got an exception to wear the mask to cover a disfiguring facial scar. But really he wears it because he is secretly the son of Zeon Zum Deikun. 30 years ago Deikun led a movement to declare Spacenoid independence... And it just lays the whole thing out, including that Sha only joined the Zeon military so he can eliminate the Zavi family, and that he was pushed onto his path of vengeance by Jimba Ral. in the first chapter, before they even get to Side 7. Even if you assume that most of the people reading this knew the story already, it's still a terrible thing to do purely for pacing. And the edition I'm reading was published in 1990! It was like the first Gundam thing to be released in the west. Imagine if you're just some American in 1990, Probably never heard of Gundam, but oh hey here's a new sci-fi novels series about robots like Battletech. And that's how it starts, with the major antagonists secret identity and goals laid out in detail before he even does anything. Do better, Tomino.
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May 28, 2020 17:12
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Amuro isn’t the hero of the novel. 
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May 28, 2020 17:22
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Gripweed posted:And that's how it starts, with the major antagonists secret identity and goals laid out in detail before he even does anything. You're right, The Count of Monte-Cristo should never have started out by revealing Edmond Dantès' deal. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 19:20 on May 28, 2020 |
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May 28, 2020 17:39
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Midjack posted:Amuro isn’t the hero of the novel. Yes he is. I know that Amuro will eventually die in these novels. But I'm halfway through the first one and he's not dead yet. And I flipped to the back to check, and he makes it through the entire novel. So far it has all been presented just like the show, with Amuro as the hero and Char/Sha as the antagonist. Lemon-Lime posted:You're right, The Count of Monte Christo should never have started out by revealing Edmond Dantès' deal. I'm pretty sure we get at least a couple scenes with Dantes before he sets off on his revenge quest. I haven't read the book in a long time but I don't remember it starting off, page one, with "This is the Count of Monte Cristo. Well, at least that's what he claims. In actuality he's Edmund Dantes, a sailor on a quest for revenge against...." Presenting Char like the show did, where the audience can get a sense of the character, and there's a mystery set up about his relationship with Sayla, and then it all gets revealed in a dramatic fashion is, imo, superior storytelling than just a big detailed info dump literally the first time he shows up
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May 28, 2020 17:59
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Gripweed posted:Yes he is. I know that Amuro will eventually die in these novels. But I'm halfway through the first one and he's not dead yet. And I flipped to the back to check, and he makes it through the entire novel. So far it has all been presented just like the show, with Amuro as the hero and Char/Sha as the antagonist. He dies at the climax of the third novel, about twenty pages before it's done if I recall. He's very much the protagonist of the story, though "hero" is a bit more ambiguous. Still, Char isn't a particularly heroic figure in the novels either, and it's not until Amuro's death, that he's pushed in to heroic action. I'd say Amuro is still definitively the hero personally. Gripweed posted:Presenting Char like the show did, where the audience can get a sense of the character, and there's a mystery set up about his relationship with Sayla, and then it all gets revealed in a dramatic fashion is, imo, superior storytelling than just a big detailed info dump literally the first time he shows up It's a difference in goal really. The story of Monte Cristo is the story of Edmund Dantes, and his past exists to establish how and why he's doing everything while the story of Gundam isn't the story of Char. Char exists in it, but is only a part of the greater narrative. It makes sense to lay out Dante's past immediately, because you're not supposed to find him a mystery and you're not supposed to get a sense of him independent of his motive, goals etc. Char in the animation is defined by the difference between action and word, between the image he presents and the reality underneath; you need to establish him independent of his past to let that contrast take hold. I haven't read the novels in a long time, but I'm pretty sure it's the same there too.
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May 28, 2020 18:24
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I haven't read the novels, but the series has an issue where the stuff with Char and the entire concept of Newtypes comes hilariously late in the series. Whether that's a product of the show being cut short or Tomino's perennial pacing issues, I can't say.
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May 28, 2020 18:30
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tsob posted:It's a difference in goal really. The story of Monte Cristo is the story of Edmund Dantes, and his past exists to establish how and why he's doing everything while the story of Gundam isn't the story of Char. Char exists in it, but is only a part of the greater narrative. It makes sense to lay out Dante's past immediately, because you're not supposed to find him a mystery and you're not supposed to get a sense of him independent of his motive, goals etc. Char in the animation is defined by the difference between action and word, between the image he presents and the reality underneath; you need to establish him independent of his past to let that contrast take hold. I haven't read the novels in a long time, but I'm pretty sure it's the same there too. I was being somewhat snide, The Count of Monte Cristo doesn't lay out Dantes whole deal at the begining at all because it doesn't start with him pretending to be the Count. He starts out as Dantes and then gets betrayed and goes to prison and then formulates his revenge plan and executes it, and the reader is along every step of the way. But as for Char in the Gundam novels, there's a weird change to his story; he doesn't do anything to get Garma killed. Sha passes along completely valid information, Garma goes out with three Gaws, two of them get destroyed by the Pegasus, and then he just decides to ram his Gaw into the ship for no real reason. Meanwhile Sha was busy the whole time fighting the Gundam and Gun Cannons. And then Sha's like, welp, guess he just sucked. So there's no betrayal.
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May 28, 2020 18:37
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I'd presume it was simply a product of the cancellation, because the show does actually start laying groundwork for it early with Matilda and others talking about ESP in reference to Amuro, among other things. There's a definite sense it's building up from the start, and it doesn't come out of nowhere as a consequence. The missing episode summaries indicate we'd have gotten more about them.
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May 28, 2020 18:38
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gourdcaptain posted:I haven't read the novels, but the series has an issue where the stuff with Char and the entire concept of Newtypes comes hilariously late in the series. Whether that's a product of the show being cut short or Tomino's perennial pacing issues, I can't say. The novels fix that, at least. In the first fight between Sha and Amuro Sha is like, hmm this guys is really fast, I wonder if he's a New Type, the theoretical new form of humanity that they're experimenting on at the Flanagan Institute. I swear to loving god, the exposition in this book. Later on Sha decides to go the Flanagan Institute and wonders if he'll get to meet Lala again. And I almost pumped my fist in the air and wooted because they just leave it at that, it's literally the first time in the entire book that a character or concept is mentioned without at least a paragraph of exposition explaining who they are and their past relationship with the characters. There's a person Sha knows named Lala at the Flanagan Institute and he is looking forward to seeing her again. Great, that's all I needed for that scene and it's all the book gave me.
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May 28, 2020 18:43
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There are a couple of scenes in the novel where the blathering about Newtypes becomes so dense it is reminiscent of the restaurant in Being John Malkovich.
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May 28, 2020 18:55
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Is there a cowriter or something that Tomino had on Turn A? It feels so much more... together than a lot of his other works. Like I tried watching Overman King Gainer a few months ago, his next series after Turn A, and it was just a standard Tomino mess.
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May 28, 2020 19:11
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Tomino isn't the primary writer on most of his shows, and didn't write at all in some of them so far as I know. When he does write, it's under a pseudonym.
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May 28, 2020 19:34
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tsob posted:Tomino isn't the primary writer on most of his shows, and didn't write at all in some of them so far as I know. When he does write, it's under a pseudonym. And I immediately realize why my original question was kinda bad. Whoops. Still wonder why Turn A feels so different though.
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May 28, 2020 19:54
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I guess my copy of the MSG novels is a compilation all put into one. Been a while since I read it, but I remember liking the adjustments to the story that are there compared to the show/movies.
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May 28, 2020 20:07
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The Notorious ZSB posted:I guess my copy of the MSG novels is a compilation all put into one. Been a while since I read it, but I remember liking the adjustments to the story that are there compared to the show/movies. There have been a couple of printings of the omnibus. One has a mostly grey cover and the most recent is mostly red. Both have a line art RX-78 on the cover, and both have revised translations so no more Sha piloting a Zak for Jion stuff.
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May 28, 2020 20:16
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Amuro is absolutely the protagonist of the Gundam novels. Even when the story goes significantly off the rails it is in response to his own actions and echos through the lack of him being around. (It also happens at the very rear end end of the last book.)
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May 28, 2020 20:28
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Midjack posted:There have been a couple of printings of the omnibus. One has a mostly grey cover and the most recent is mostly red. Both have a line art RX-78 on the cover, and both have revised translations so no more Sha piloting a Zak for Jion stuff. The grey one. And yeah none of the wacky non anime names.
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May 28, 2020 23:40
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The Notorious ZSB posted:The grey one. And yeah none of the wacky non anime names. That sucks, you missed out on Gren and Krishia Zavi
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May 29, 2020 01:17
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Gripweed posted:That sucks, you missed out on Gren and Krishia Zavi I played the quick time ps1 game so I had my fill of bad translation... But not my fill of bad char costumes.
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May 29, 2020 03:33
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Is gundam ZZ a must-watch?
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May 29, 2020 03:48
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