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Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

T.G. Xarbala posted:

IBO thread had me thinking, and the fact that Bring Stabity never piloted a knockoff Exia feels like a missed opportunity.

His name was supposed to be Bring Stability. :ssh:

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Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Namtab posted:

What's everyone's fave gundam (show) and gundam (big robot)

I'm gonna say 00 season 1 and Wing gundam.

Favorite show is a tough one for me. As a self-contained product, it's probably G; for such a campy, silly show the main story has a lot of heart and introspection in it and the entire cast is wonderful. It's also incredible in the context of a franchise all about how war is poo poo that G Gundam, the silly show about super robot Gundam fighting, is the one that has a final battle that is only resolved when the protagonist opts *not* to fight and instead to share his feelings openly for the first time in his life.

For actual robot design it's probably Destiny, because it's like the lovechild of the F91 and V2(two of my other favorite designs) as designed by an edgy teenager. A close second is the ZZ because it's a huge dumb boondoggle of a unit that should never function but it does.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Droyer posted:

G-reco is contrroversial. I greatly enjoyed it and I know many others who did, but I also know a lot of people hated it. One thing you should know is that it expects you to pay close attention, so if you don't you'll probably have a bad time. It's available on Hulu

This is it in a nutshell. It's a really good show, but it depends on the viewer paying significantly more attention than most shows for everything to click. If you're used to glossing over lines there will be parts that don't line up or make a lot of sense.

That said, yeah if you liked the first couple of episodes then go for it because the first few episodes are invariably what turns people off on it for the aforementioned reasons.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Raxivace posted:

Elle and Roux were both pretty good. It's kind of mind boggling that they exist in the same show with loving Beecha.

Beecha is a poo poo-headed idiot but he managed to hold his own in the loving Hyaku Shiki, which is just as impressive as Elle not dying in the Gundam MKII.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Logicblade posted:

I think it's about time... I stood up to the Victory.

*bites fingernails*

With the first episode cleared, I think I'm in for a treat. Usso is pretty ruthless and creative in combat, team Victory is ghetto as all hell, and the body count is already looking pretty high.

Victory has probably the best fight choreography in UC Gundam, so you're in for a treat if you liked the ep1 fight. Usso is a stone cold little fucker.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Logicblade posted:

So... when they do they keep the Victory fully formed out of the gate? I mean I get that transforming mechs are cool, but it's just not practical to have a bunch of bottom fighters get destroyed every time you try to dock mid fight. I suppose at least they have the presence of mind to have spares.

Also Zanscare is really trying to hit every villain note right out the gate here, murdering civilians, burning down forests, murdering subordinates, it's a murder party for everyone!

It's the low profile thing. Zanscare has a huge military advantage and the League Militaire absolutely can't afford a knock-down-drag-out with them at the start of the series, so it's a lot more nondescript to move your mobile suits around as much smaller jets tarped over on trucks than to have them marching around visibly. That and the V Gundam is quite specifically designed to be cheap as dirt and mass produced like mad, so throwing away component fighters isn't actually a huge deal. The V Gundam is only a "Gundam" in a sense that it's aesthetically designed to look like one as a propaganda device; performance and cost wise it's a bog-standard grunt, through and through.

Zanscare are easily the most openly and unquestionably evil UC Gundam villains, easily outpacing even the Titans.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Logicblade posted:

So I just finished episode six... what just happened? Like seriously, what the gently caress?


I just killed two of my own subordinates five minutes ago and now I'm gonna catch that gundam! Oh poo poo the pilot is a kid, I better blow myself up with a grenade, reality is too cruel!


The Victory Gundam Experience.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Sharkopath posted:

I think the only demographic that's underrepresented is actual kids, mostly.

I remember some scuttlebutt in the old thread that supposedly Build Fighters was a bit of a flop with the obvious target audience of children but made it up with big interest from older gunota.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Srice posted:

I feel common sense rules are the best, in that the shows are so old that in a general conversation there's no need for tags but if someone is going through one of them for the first time and posting about it, might as well be polite.

Yeah, the way it always worked in the old threads was in general discussion about old series nobody bothered to spoiler poo poo but if somebody was doing a watchthrough and discussion turned towards stuff that was coming up the posters would traditionally spoiler basically everything so the new viewer could spoil himself or not as he wished.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

NikkolasKing posted:

I know exactly when I first got into Gundam as I have the posts on this very forum to prove it. Although I had been contemplating watching Gundam for years before this. I kept putting it off and putting it off because of the elements of the fandom I had been exposed to. I won't pretend SEED is my favorite Gundam show or anything but to hear the people I used to talk with tell it, Gundam SEED is responsible for all the suffering in the world.

Once I actually became a fan myself though and saw more of the fanbase, I realized it wasn't so bad. I even discovered that there are people who don't like Zeta. I don't know why this is but there are.

Zeta has some really rough parts like the incredibly awkward Four romance and the entire Rosamia segment and it also has a cast absolutely filled to the brim with total assholes. I like the show but I can definitely see people not liking it and it's definitely not my favorite series.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Droyer posted:

Most of the cast of Zeta being assholes was partly the point, so I don't really count that as a negative in that sense. I can understand people not liking it though.

It was definitely the point and not necessarily a black mark on the series's writing.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Logicblade posted:

And I thought the Tomliats were made of explodium... the Gedlav just destroys everythiing when it goes up. The V2 is looking very slick, I am a fan. I am not a fan of Lupe trying to take a bath with a 13 year old boy... The rest of the episode was cool though.

Usso's Confirmed Kill Count: 1825

Lupe is part of Tomino's weird women issues he was airing out with Victory, specifically the belief that the most sacred and important duty a woman can ever accomplish is giving birth to and nuturing new life. Lupe wants Usso to be a sort of adoptive son for her since she never had a child.

(The Shrike Team are basically an entire group of surrogate moms for Usso that exist to die protecting and helping him, to add to the show airing out this belief)

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Reds posted:

Zeek detected.

I have a laundry list of issues with the opening regarding the absurd level of jobbing by the GMs, particularly this scene. Brace for butthurt.


There's the GMs that teleport behind cover between shots so that they can't just fill the Hygogg full of lead during its dumb slide, the animation error where one of the GMs loses its shield, the GMs having the reaction times of a brain-damaged snail, the fact that the grabbed GM just sort of goes limp and doesn't move a muscle, and the fact that his buddy firing on him without making any attempt to shoot anything but the middle of the Hygogg didn't even hit the cockpit meaning the GM had a solid 5-10 seconds where he could have maybe tried to do something about the Hygogg grabbing his face...

0080's battles are incredibly one-sided other than the last one and it makes them really boring to watch. Particularly the scene with the Kampfer. Some idiot decided to deploy all of the GMs from the air so that they'd damage the colony if they fired at the Kampfer, meaning the Kampfer gets to just sit back and shoot while they can't attack him at all.

Fighting brain-dead opponents doesn't make you impressive, it makes you actively less impressive. If your opponent is competent then you look good when you beat them. If they aren't fighting back at all you look bad because the hand of god is clearly on your side. Muh GMs.

Look, we needed at least one scene in UC Gundam where an aquatic mobile suit not piloted by Char does something to justify its existence.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

TNG posted:

I dunno man, I think criticizing 0080 for its action scenes as "unimpressive" and "boring" is kind of the wrong direction to go since its aesthetic choices don't really lend themselves to buying into the "mecha action must be cool" narrative. After all, this is a show that criticizes military Otaku at every turn. Unlike a lot of other shows, which have a bit of a gekiga Samurai approach to their action scenes, 0080 emphasizes that combat is quick, brutal, unsatisfying, and pointless in a lot of cases. The Kaempher kills the Scarlett team so quickly not because of budgetary or writing failures, but because it's a killing machine that does ugly and brutal things and in a military conflict an exciting and romantic drama is never the case. Same deal when the Alex blows it away, or when Bernie in the end dies for nothing. Even the opening scene, with all its tactical rolls and sick no scopes or whatever, ends with Steiner holding the bleeding corpse of his comrade as the Gundam gets away anyway.

Ultimately the show asks the people watching it, if they are so inclined, why exactly they're like Al and his friends. Do you(the audience) watch these types of shows because you like violence, the cult of the machine, and watching people die? No, you don't? Well that's what's being depicted, maybe you(the viewer) should consider what you're watching a little closer next time, you might just not find it as exciting or as endearing. It's why 0080 is really one of the better anti-war Gundam shows, its action isn't driven by a need to sell not only a plastic toy product but a mindset that has infected a great deal of science fiction stories. In fact, it's attempting to go the opposite of that. Which I find is really special, and something the genre needs more of.

This is good analysis and I agree with you but I'm pretty sure Reds is taking issue with the fact that people like to gush about how awesome the fight scenes are in 0080 from a visual perspective when they have a lot of choreography problems. Whether or not they have those problems intentionally is another issue, but those problems do exist.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

boom boom boom posted:

The plot to 08th MS team doesn't fall apart, some people just don't like the romance

You can argue that the show is totally not about the Shiro/Aina romance until the Himalaya Hot Springs segment, at which point it falls apart utterly to be about that, and that occurs in episode 7 of 12 or so. The interaction between the two of them early in the series exists to serve as a support for Shiro's changing opinions on the morality of conflict whereas later it's pretty much AINAAAAA I LOVE YOUUUUU newtype romance style except without the newtypes.

Logicblade posted:

Tomino's women issues are starting to really come to the forefront here. Well... I mean that they are only getting more blatant as we go on. The people say they want to live in a world with Maria's love, but in their actions they so thoroughly deny what they want, it'd be baffling if it wasn't just hypocritical. In the end it's just powerful men exploiting women to further their own agenda, kind of like what would have happened if Paptimus survived Zeta. This... only gets worse, right?

You're not at the bottom of the rabbit hole yet.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

closeted republican posted:

I think it' funny how Elepo Ple is the standard "uguu so cute ^_^" Gundam character among fans that attracts all the pedos, but in the actual show she's a genuine psycho-bitch that opened fire with funnels while on an occupied playground in Axis, attempted to murder Leina in cold blood while Leina was suffering from an untreated gunshot wound, and is the type that would attack you with an axe she dug up in the garage if you didn't pay attention to her all the time. Judau's reasoning for letting her join the team feels like it's basically "Oh god, she's nuts. Better play along with her or else".

Puru's just a child who was encouraged to be selfish and violent by virtue of having magic psychic powers. She's like ten years old and has spent at least a few years of her life being trained to kill people in a mobile suit instead of being raised to respect others and control her impulses like a normal kid. Judau tolerates her because he's used to being a big brother figure to hosed up children.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

TNG posted:

ZZ's a funny show, since I am convinced Tomino was having a massive troll-y meltdown that he would only exceed in V Gundam. The title Gundam is this massive chuuni pile of guns and sharp angles, but even today does not quite work at 1/100th or 1/144th scale. And not a lot of the other designs with all their gimmicks do that either. You think the Federation is corrupt and bad? In this one they sell out to Neo Zeon and allow them to drop a colony on Dublin! Neo Zeon itself grows out of the far more restrained Axis remnant as an almost super robot evil empire type bad guy organization. The show literally ends with Judau screaming at how the adults ruin everything. It's like he's taking all the aspects he hates about the Franchise(tm) and all the other the things people expect out of it and moves them up to 11. You want more Gundam? I'll give you the loving Gundam-iest Gundam you've ever had! Honestly the serious parts are sillier to me than the episode where Bright has to catch a Chicken or Moon-Moon.

Ple is also bad and creepy and everything about her is terrible, including Marida Cruz who adds a whole buncha poo poo to the already massive poo poo pile.

I've watched ZZ through twice and I don't understand what you think makes Puru "creepy". The closest thing to "creepy" involving either Puru is that scene where Glemy is talking to a naked Puru 2, and even that scene isn't "Glemy the pedophile macking on the little girl clone", it's "Glemy literally doesn't consider the Purus to be human beings so he has no respect for their boundaries" since this is the same character who would fall all over himself blushing at Roux sparing him a look. Any weird pedophile readings of the character are strange to me.

Puru is a child who received no education or socialization on how to behave in human society and instead was taught to kill and destroy things with a mobile suit. To add on to this, she's a newtype who can constantly feel and respond to the emotions of everyone around her at all times and for her entire childhood was surrounded by people who think "Yep it sure would be cool to turn this kid into a weapon so we can gently caress those Feddie bastards over" or "Man it's gonna be sweet when Haman takes over the world" during her most malleable developmental stages. This means that she's selfish, sociopathic, and doesn't actually understand how to properly empathize with other people despite being a newtype. Judau is the first character she ever meets who attempts to treat her like a human being. I find her to be an OK different take on the cyber newtype girl trope because she's not just "woo I got cyber newtype implants now I get big headaches all the time and I'm loving crazy!!!!"

Marida's backstory, on the other hand, is pretty much just gratuitous nonsense to attempt to shock the reader.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

closeted republican posted:

Your explanation doesn't excuse her behavior. When your intro to a character includes her firing willy-nilly inside a civilian area with a fancy newtype mobile suit, one of the conflicts in ZZ's wham episodes being Judau trying to talk her down from murdering a wounded Leina, and her character is basically "homicidal little sister from hell", it's kinda hard not to see her as pretty drat weird, insane, and creepy. "Neo Zeon abused her" doesn't justify "attempted to kill the MC's sister by choking her to death because Ple was jealous".

Have you spent a lot of time around children? Most children are horrible little monsters by default because they haven't really come to grasp the concept of empathy yet. They'll beat the poo poo out of each other, resort to violence at the drop of a hat for any reason at all or even no reason at all, and will throw screaming tantrums if they don't get what they want instantly. This is simply how kids are naturally and this is why we teach children discipline, empathy, and consideration for others when we raise them and teach them how to operate in human society.

A child totally bereft of these socializing influences, such as Puru, is never going to get over the completely self-centered toddler phase of their development. It doesn't make her a creepy character beyond being the creepiness of the natural result of giving a child access to gigantic robots and deadly weaponry without ever teaching them right and wrong or how to empathize with other people. Imagine a child throwing a tantrum in a grocery store because his mom won't buy him candy except that child has a gun, pretty much.

Kanos fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Oct 21, 2015

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled
Victory is not subtle.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

tsob posted:

I really like that the conflict is resolved not so much by fighting as by Mineva going on television and saying "You know what? Zeon is kind of retarded. Let's not do that poo poo again, because it's not really worth it and I don't want anyone using me as an excuse for war". Char's Counterattack definitely has the more iconic finale for Zeon, but I prefer Unicorns, because I think it's more reasonable that a speech by a representative of a faction that denounces that faction and it's ideals ends up being the final grave of Zeon, than Char's own soldiers turning on him in a split second and then no-one ever questioning the cause again despite nothing really being disproved about it.

Yea, Unicorn's finale is kind of stupid, but so is Char's Counterattacks in several ways and I at least prefer the base idea of Unicorns to be honest.

The problem with this reading is that the conflict isn't resolved by Mineva's speech, the conflict is resolved by Banagher/Riddhe killing Full Frontal and the Gryps 2 Colony Laser erasing the main Sleeves fleet from existence while trying to stop Mineva's speech from airing. Nobody from Zeon changes their minds as a result of what Mineva says because they're either dead or they don't care(Zeon terrorists attempt to melt the polar ice caps immediately in response to Mineva's speech).

The conflict in CCA is resolved by everyone coming together to save the planet together in spite of Char's insistence that it would never happen and has immediate, clear results. The conflict in Unicorn is resolved by a small team of special snowflake newtype kids killing a guy and then the attempted Federation coverup wiping out that guy's forces by accident while trying to kill the special snowflake newtype squad. Then the special snowflake newtype squad fucks off and is never heard from again.

Kanos fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Oct 22, 2015

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled
I really can't stop harping on this. The Axis Shock is an effective ending to early UC because of it basically being the world's collective reply to Char's nihilism. Char, in a state of nihilistic despair, says "gently caress the world, humanity sucks too much rear end to ever improve on its own, I'm going to force them to move on" and humanity as a whole, collective entity says "No, gently caress you, dickhead. There's still hope for all of us to work together". CCA has a myriad of problems as a production but the ending is not one of them, it's one of the most effective and strong endings in Gundam.

Unicorn's ending has no meaningful effect on anyone but the characters already involved.

Kanos fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Oct 22, 2015

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled
No offense taken! I just really like CCA's ending a lot. :shobon:

To steer the topic to something different but related, I'd really like to see a series set in something like UC 100 or 101 to see what sort of reaction the world as a whole had to the Axis Shock and the Sleeves nonsense. We have a rough idea what happened(frantic Federation coverup), but there's generally a huge 20 year gap between Unicorn and F90 and by the time F90 hits "early UC" is largely done with. We know that the Federation began to teeter and collapse under its own rotten weight in that period but that's about it as far as specifics.

The problem is of course the standard Gundam problem, where they'd have to manufacture some sort of mobile suit conflict to center a story like that around because Gundam productions always need giant robots at the forefront even when they're not really that necessary to the story.

Kanos fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Oct 22, 2015

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled
CCA represented the effective death of Zeon as a serious military entity capable of challenging the Federation. After Char's Neo Zeon was broken in CCA, Zeon/Axis as a unified government and military force was destroyed forever; the only successors to Neo Zeon are scattered terrorist/guerilla groups like the Sleeves and the few crazy assholes who went and formed Mars Zeon. The late UC villains like Cosmo Babylonia, the Jupiter Empire, the Crossbone Vanguard, and Zanscare have absolutely nothing to do with Zeon. In fact, the legacy of CCA in the Universal Century is that after CCA happened large scale war between the colonies and Earth pretty much stopped entirely. War only returned in force when assholes from Jupiter and the Asteroid Belt came back and tried to conquer everything.

I'd say pretty much ending war in the Earth sphere for decades is a pretty big achievement.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

LORD OF BUTT posted:

Seriously, what is with all the hilarious character names in Gundam? The characters with relatively normal names are way outnumbered by the ones with absolute gibberish names or bizarre double entendres or both (looking at you Jamitov Hymen).

Tomino has a long tradition of goofy names even outside of Gundam. L-Gaim had Gavlet Gablae, Amandara Kamandara, Oldna Posaydal, Kuwasan Olibee, and Full Flat. Dunbine had Burn Burnings and Shot Weapon.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

tsob posted:

Why did it represent the effective death of Zeon though? Nothing that happens in the film actually represents a reason that Zeon sympathizers around the Earthsphere should give up on Zeon. A handful of remaining Zeon pilots are given some reason to do so, but the cause it represents is never publicly defeated such that we could reasonably expect people who take issue with the Federation would go "Yea, Zeon isn't the answer". And if Degwin, Haman and Char can all rile up armies and sides in the past to support them, there's no reason some future Zeon poo poo-stirrer can't do the same. Which is why I prefer the fact Unicorn ends with a speech decrying both Zeon's methods and the Zabis and their image as a central point for resistance. It's not as iconic, it's not even as emotive or well executed, but I prefer it regardless.

Well, for starters, Neo Zeon was utterly crushed militarily despite being headed up by The Red Comet Himself(and a Zeon led by Char has been the dream of a lot of Zeon supporters since the Zabis bit the dust, as shown by how some people were willing to follow Frontal). That's a pretty good reason! After Neo Zeon's complete defeat in CCA, Neo Zeon ceased to exist as an independent government power. The only stirrings of Zeon for the remainder of recorded time that we're aware of(so until UC 150+) are random tiny groups of terrorists before they fade completely away and are never mentioned again after Mars Zeon gets stomped. This suggests that the vast majority of people who were willing to actually pick up a gun and fight in the name of Zeon's ideology are either dead, have changed their minds, or have decided that it's not worth dying for.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

ImpAtom posted:

That honestly makes sense. Amuro was tearing through aces and prototypes more than mooks

Somebody had to clean up all the Oggos and left over Zaku Is.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Logicblade posted:

They actually functioned as highly effective shields, impromptu weapons, and an emergency distraction when the pilots needed it. Not to mention increased mobility, and they come with beam weapons built in. Those wheels were insane.


Speakin of insane, Zanscare has themselves a Satellite Cannon. Well if you're stalling for time to build a weapon of mass destruction, there is not much better, aside from actual nukes, but it seems like Mobile suits already run on them, so this is just covering the bases. Oh never mind, it's one dope rear end mobile suit. Like wow, it's got so much going on, I don't even know. But it's got a sick hoverboard, shoulder that emit laser discs, and a cool looking head. It also seems to induce headaches and lets newtypes hear the bell toll... it's super creepy. I love it. I don't know what my favourite suit is from this series, but whatever this one is is definitely up there with the Shokew, the Doggorla and the Gedlav.

HahahahaHAHAHAHA :unsmigghh:

That MS is called the Zanneck and it's rad as gently caress.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Lemon Curdistan posted:

The Origin's Garma is definitely very gay for Char. :3:

He's super bi in Origin since he's still got eyes for Icelina, but the shower scene is pretty much the funniest poo poo in Origin.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled
Riddhe is the best character in Unicorn and it's not his fault that Episode 7 is a hamfisted mess.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

closeted republican posted:

Riddhe is a wiener with an inferiority complex that lusts over a waifu that doesn't care for him and wastes Marida for no reason.

This is a pretty bad reading, but Droyer asked people to not go over debates that have been rehashed constantly in the old thread.

Baal posted:

Oh my god this is so stupid

Episode 7 retroactively makes the previous episodes of Unicorn worse.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Baal posted:

Nah, I still love those episodes, but it definitely is a big hit, like an insanely big hit.

I'm just grousing and exercising hyperbole about it. I don't regret watching Unicorn in the least and I still go back to watch specific scenes from time to time because it's probably the best animated full length robot show that has ever existed. There is definitely some good stuff there like Riddhe and Zinnerman's character arcs. I'm just mad that the show ended in a bunch of newtype farts and the main villain was actually defeated by the main character being petulant. It's still a far better production from a story and character perspective than 0083, because Unicorn's bad characters are mostly just bland cardboard cutouts or generic Gundam tropes instead of actively terrible like Nina Purpleton, and Unicorn has some really good characters whereas 0083 really doesn't(unless you add in side materials which retroactively make characters like Cima interesting).

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

ImpAtom posted:

The long and short of it is that Riddhe is someone who grew up in the wake of a war that murdered most of humanity and also someone who benefits from the status quo that war left behind. So he has the reasonable argument of "holy poo poo the OYW killed billions of people do you really want that to happen again?" and the less-reasonable-but-understandable viewpoint of "Well, things aren't so bad for me, so the former Zeons should just suck it up, why are they rebelling anyway?"

This is complicated by him being a Newtype so he's like "man, that Minerva lady sure is Newtyping my Newtype" which is corrupted by the fact that he legitimately thinks Newtypes are hugely hosed up and will cause the war to start again, not in the least because he is aware of what the charter says and thinks that the mere existence of Newtypes legitimizes Zeon. (Something that Banagher and Mineva don't agree on by the end.)

He's not a likable character in that he is a tremendous douchebag but he is a well-realized character with mostly sensible motivations.

This covers the salient plot points. To add on a little bit, Riddhe's written in a very human way, which is why I find him compelling. He has a totally reasonable, altruistic, and understandable main goal of "Holy gently caress, I've got to stop these terrorist bastards from trying to reignite the One Year War or it'll destroy humanity", but that goal is underpinned by not so good things. He doesn't really know or care why Zeon loyalists are Zeon loyalists; they're just crazy terrorist idiots. He has no real desire to see the existing order of things altered or overthrown because his life is really loving good; he's a hotshot mobile suit ace, his daddy is on the Federation high council, and his family is rich as gently caress. His position of privilege means that when his newtype kicks in and he makes a connection with Mineva he is utterly baffled why she doesn't reciprocate because his privileged life means that he's never had to deal with outright rejection before.

His meltdown in episode 7 is excellent because it's him being forced to come to terms with the fact that his entire worldview is a warped misunderstanding of how things actually are in an extremely abrupt and violent manner. Prior to episode 7 he had lived in a world that was pretty comfortably black and white. Zeon loyalists are bad, Federation loyalists are good, Newtypes were bad because the Zabis used them as an excuse to try to blow up the world, Laplace's Box is bad because it legitimizes Newtypes, who are bad. Suddenly he's forced to realize that he(Good) is actually a Newtype(Bad) and is being told that he should help open Laplace's Box(Bad) by Audrey(Good), and in his despair and confusion at this mess he lashes out and kills Marida and realizes that he hosed up in the worst possible way and that everything he knows is wrong.

He's assuredly a gigantic rear end in a top hat and not likeable at all for the majority of the series, but his arc is really good.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Logicblade posted:

Chronicle got chumped, it was tragic for half a second, but then you just hear this crunch sound and you can't help but laugh your rear end off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI4ewYRrv7s

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Craptacular! posted:

Remember that one urban fight in 08th? You know the one, where they were grappling down buildings running down freeways and stuff? Is there any show that has more of that kind of fighting?

When I think of Gundam, I tend to think of battleship formations launching robots who cross lightsabres and fire Space Shotguns at each other. I'd like to see less space weaponry and more machine guns and urban combat like that. I dunno if any of the shows I haven't seen do that, maybe Turn-A since it's got this Ghibli Lite setting that might be less prone to laser battles among asteroid fields?

Most Gundam shows don't really go for gritty feeling combat. 08th MS has it, 0080 has it to a degree, and the first couple of episodes of the currently airing Iron Blooded Orphans have had that sort of fighting. For a show based entirely around that style of combat I'd recommend you watch VOTOMs.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Reds posted:

Igloo makes them even more space nazi, particularly in the uniforms, if that's even possible.

Igloo does adhere to the "regular soldiers are normal people" that's been standard since 0079.

Igloo goes a little beyond "regular soldiers are normal people" and into "regular Zeon soldiers are brave heroes who would easily smite down all who opposed them in the name of Zeon if only they weren't stabbed in the back by faulty equipment and poor supplies".

Vindicator posted:

"You're turning into Hitler", the sovereign ruler says to his oldest son, the supreme commander of a space army undertaking a war of aggression. That doesn't say Nazi to you?

"You're turning into Hitler", the sovereign ruler says to his oldest son, the supreme commander of a space army undertaking a war of aggression. His oldest son takes it as a compliment.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

everythingWasBees posted:

Yeah, IGLOO definitely has a "Zeon soldiers are just normal people" theme, but then the higher ups send children out on suicide missions and they constantly abandon the science team to die and ignore any actual field testing conducted so calling it pro-Zeon is still a bit of a stretch, even with the Zeon flag waving at the end of every episode. It's also a lot less Zeon centric in season 2.

I dunno, season 2 is all Federation based but all of the Federation focus characters in season 2 are hosed up crazy people who make terrible decisions that ultimately cause their deaths(and in the case of ep3 actively undermine their side's cause). It's a pretty stark contrast to Heroic Noble Zudah Pilot and Whoa Look At Hildolfr Pilot He's A Drug Addict But Is Still Nearly Invincible In This Thing.

Kanos fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Oct 27, 2015

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

TNG posted:

MS IGLOO is stupid for the same reason that Space Battleship Yamato's initial scenario is stupid, because rather than looking at why a military-industrial complex would allow these sorts of machines to be made in the first place it instead puts all the focus on the "bravery" of the dumb bastards they get to fly and sail the things. Never mind that this whole system of militarism is flawed at every level, these men are brave and die brave deaths for what they believe in! Sure our government is corrupt and probably evil, but aren't these men and women the bravest? It's more of a hagiography of Zeon's martyrs than anything else. The reason I never buy the argument that IGLOO is critical of Zeon is that it still revels in its dumb loving robots. They're all deathtraps, but by god we'll make them a giant funeral pyre in the sky so bright they'll always remember! Rather than going "ZEON BANZAI" every time, it would probably be more germane to you know, be angry and terrified at the system that treated them like another component in the doomed and ultimately destructive machine of nationalism.

A lot like this guy: http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2011/05/02/134597833/cosmonaut-crashed-into-earth-crying-in-rage Which is a great of example of a man placed into a terrible technological and bureaucratic deathtrap that was rushed into production to try and win a battle in a dubious conflict

Thank you for putting into words what rubs me the wrong way about IGLOO.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Sakurazuka posted:

Sunrise seems content to keep Gundam the last bastion for traditionally animated robots, though I can't remember how much CGI there was in Origins

Just those horses

The only episode of Origin we've had so far has had relatively little robot action but every single bit of it was CGI.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Droyer posted:

That doesn't even look like a scopedog

The Zaku Flipper looks pretty similar to the Standing Tortoise from VOTOMs, this guy:



It looks nothing like a Scopedog though.

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Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Lemon Curdistan posted:

He's an 8 year old with zero piloting/gunnery experience who kills three or four Guntanks (crewed by actual soldiers) on his own by "literally sitting in the cockpit and shooting."

He kills one of them by complete surprise, kills another one while they're making GBS threads themselves and running into each other to try to fall back because they just got fired on by their ally, then kills the other two by driving directly forward and holding down the guns. Keep in mind this is way before the OYW so none of these actual soldiers have faced another mobile suit before, nevermind one that is supposed to be on their own side opening fire on them in a crowded narrow street with no room to maneuver. The Fed guntanks were also told to stop the rogue guntank, not kill it, so those moments of hesitation could easily lead to their deaths in that situation. Look at the soldiers who Hamon bribed to get the guntank in the first place; do you think the average Federation soldier on Munzo is particularly competent?

The stolen Guntank is absolutely savaged, too; Char and friends survived by pretty much blind dumb luck, not Char being an 8 year old guntank ace.

Kanos fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Oct 29, 2015

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