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The period where she's feigning childlike innocence is when she's being held captive on board an enemy battleship. Pretending that you're oblivious and don't know poo poo seems like a pretty smart ploy when you're at someone else's mercy. That said, her resistance movement always seemed small and elite. She, personally, was able to field one battleship and two prototype Gundams(Freedom and Justice) to intervene at Jachin Due - the other two ships and their accompanying mobile weapons in the Three Ships Alliance weren't hers.
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Feb 25, 2024 22:06
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:there's no question that lacus was faking it and is actually very smart and capable. but she kept that poo poo up with athrun, too. so exactly when and how did she convince an entire resistance movement that she isn't really a bit dim and they should follow her to war? i just think the show should have actually hinted at lacus' actual personality before she showed up with a battleship. Early on, Athrun was potentially as much of an enemy as the Archangel crew was. Remember that Patrick Zala, the insane genocidal warmonger, was Athrun's dad, and that Lacus's father was the leader of the political faction opposed to Patrick's and was murdered for it. And like I said, Lacus's resistance movement is very small and elite, so she wouldn't really need to reveal herself to or convince that many people to have what we see in the original SEED. I do agree that it would have been more interesting to see her wheeling and dealing, but I don't think what's there is that implausible or inexplicable.
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Feb 26, 2024 03:48
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chiasaur11 posted:So, yeah. By the numbers, most AUs seem to have some level of success in the political sphere. I'd probably give X and G-Reco passing grades. Both of them have settings that were on a somewhat positive trajectory before certain individuals and factions started stirring poo poo, and both of those shows' climaxes involve the permanent removal of pretty much all of the prominent poo poo-stirrers.
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Feb 27, 2024 13:53
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galagazombie posted:Pretty much all of it’s problems would have been solved if it had been upped to ~50 episodes so I agree. Definitely feel like the moment Shadiq is captured they realized they had nowhere near enough episodes left to tell their story and had to release a stripped down barebones version. Like a series that is its own compilation movie. I still loved the series and think it’s on the higher tiers of Gundam though. IMO there is absolutely no way for WfM's existing story goals to stretch to 50 episodes without dragging hard unless you only gave the existing story like 4-5 more episodes maximum and then spent the remaining ~20 on inventing a new storyline about them toppling space capitalism or whatever, which would be a really different vibe because so much of WfM is dialed in around specifically Prospera.
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Feb 28, 2024 03:24
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Hellioning posted:If the story wasn't going to be about toppling space capitalism they probably should have spent less time talking about space capitalism and the many ways in which it sucks then. This is a valid line of discussion, but it's more of a "they needed to use their existing episodes differently" approach rather than a "they needed more episodes" approach. The core cast of the show just isn't very interested in how terrible space capitalism is. The only person who actually wants to overturn the system entirely, Shaddiq, is strictly coded as an rear end in a top hat villain who is completely defeated and used as a scapegoat for most of the bad things that happen. Two of the primary leads, Guel and Miorine, are silver spoon trust fund children who run headfirst into how nightmarish the system is and come out of it with "maybe this system should be slightly less murderous" rather than "burn it down root and branch". The main protagonist, Suletta, basically doesn't have an opinion on the matter at all. The main antagonist, Prospera, doesn't really care about the sufferings of the peasants - she has no problem getting them killed in droves to achieve her own objectives and is solely interested in revenge for her dead colleagues and resurrection for Eri.
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Feb 28, 2024 05:35
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ninjewtsu posted:i don't think shaddiq's plan is meant to be taken as the true and good solution to capitalism any more than char's plan in CCA is meant to be a real solution to UC's various problems Yeah the point isn't "Shaddiq was right", it's "Shaddiq is the only one who actually gave a real poo poo about meaningfully altering the terrible state of the system in G-Witch, even if his plan had tons of awful collateral damage and was probably not going to work". No one else really cares because the show simply isn't about fighting space capitalism. It's basically like how nobody in G Gundam is terribly interested in changing the Gundam Fight system besides some lip service towards "we'll make it less awful in the future", with the show even ending on "See you next fight". Kanos fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Feb 28, 2024 |
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Feb 28, 2024 06:23
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galagazombie posted:There were a lot of subplots that were just dropped entirely that all together could have easily filled that runtime, or at least ~36 eps if that’s still too much for some people. Hell the main villains deciding to change their plan from “revenge” to “creating the ghost zone” happened entirely off screen. That alone is something you can get some episodes out of. Prospera's plan was 100% always "make a place for Eri to be happy", with revenge being something that's great if she can achieve it without compromising himself but she's willing to put it on the table and forget about it if she needs to in order to achieve the primary goal. Besides her willingly working closely with Delling, the example here is how she has numerous opportunities to kill Kenanji - the guy who personally murdered her husband and several of her colleagues in front of her - which she passes up completely because revenge isn't actually her main driving force and never was. Quiet Zero was always the plan, we just don't find out about the specifics of how it works until the latter part of the show. As for other dangling plotlines, uhh..I guess you could give another episode to Lauda? Another couple episodes building up the SAL? I'm a bit at a loss, because I already felt some aspects of S2 were dragging even in the runtime they had. The Plot Isolation Closet sticking around for multiple episodes wasn't great and the deliberately forced separation between Suletta and Miorine already lasted long enough.
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Feb 28, 2024 12:11
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I dunno, Anaheim never managed to really take over the UC despite being the only game in town, whereas the G-Witch corporations are in de jure control of huge parts of earth and space.
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Feb 28, 2024 16:45
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Warmachine posted:I don't think their goal, at least pre-Unicorn, had anything to do with taking over anything. They're a corporation. They want to make shitloads of money and you don't need to be the rulers of the Earth Sphere to do that. You just need to ensure a favorable business environment. Which they do very well until the Vist family starts getting delusions of grandeur in Unicorn. The Titans and Axis were threats that destabilized that business environment. The Titans did a shitload of in-house development and didn't want anything to do with buying AE products because they're insular fascists and Jamitov's big-brain scheme didn't include a spot for Anaheim at the table. Simiarly Axis didn't need Anaheim to sell them weapons, and if they took control and clamped down there would be very little opportunity for Anaheim to make a profit. Yeah but that was in response to a joke post saying that Anaheim would take over G-Witch's setting more efficiently than the corporations in G-Witch already had. Anaheim basically has a decade-long period where they're printing money hand over fist and have enough clout and influence to seriously influence UC politics and then they start declining into irrelevancy.
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Feb 28, 2024 20:49
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Anaheim didn't really do a lot of in-house newtype stuff besides using the psycoframe in the Sazabi and the Nu Gundam, which was provided to them by Neo Zeon.
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Feb 28, 2024 21:27
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Gundam shows have pretty much always advocated incrementalism and the idea that existing systems can be redeemed if only you can remove the bad actors from within them rather than root-and-branch revolution and systemic upheaval.
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Feb 28, 2024 23:21
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Darth Walrus posted:IBO goes with the similar but subtly different left-pessimist take of 'violent rebellion is effective for driving sweeping social reform, but it'll be conducted by maladjusted members of the underclass who will end up vilified and dead in a heap while their enemies take all the credit and reap most of the rewards for making society better'. The social reform in IBO isn't even really all that sweeping. Gjallarhorn is "reformed" but Rustal retains all of the actual power and the concessions he makes are things that characters like Kudelia want but crucially also actively help him maintain power. Most Gundam shows at least have the leaders of the antagonist faction get forced out of power or blown up rather than them simply winning. Kanos fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 03:32
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Rustal absolutely wasn't third at best among the Seven Stars based on what we see on screen, even if that was the officially stated ranking, because there's simply no one who demonstrates anywhere near as much personal power as he does. He was the uncontested head of the single largest and most powerful military force in a primarily military organization and while every other member of the Seven Stars was forced into a situation where they had to capitulate or declare "neutrality" regarding McGillis, Rustal simply went "lol, no, I don't care in the slightest, I'm so personally powerful and confident in the loyalty of my subordinates that I can simply openly and directly oppose a coup that neutralized every other Seven Stars family completely on my own using only my personal resources". Him taking over in the end was just acknowledging what was already functionally true.
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Feb 29, 2024 13:51
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I'm not actually certain what reforms the Federation could have instituted to stop the rise of Zeon, because Zeon wasn't originally a movement of real political grievances. Zeon as a political entity was birthed by an individual aristocrat family seizing power in one colony group and then waging an aggressive genocidal war against everyone else, including the other colonies in the name of control. Said other colonies clearly did not agree with Zeon that conditions were bad enough to warrant revolution and literally all of them refused to join said revolution despite Zeon's overwhelming initial military superiority.
Kanos fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 17:33
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Zeon Zum Deikun's primary proposed policy is "almost everyone on earth moves into space and everyone establishes a joint conservatory organization to protect Earth". It's simply not remotely plausible in any sense, given that there is a zero percent chance everyone on Earth wants to leave Earth.
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Feb 29, 2024 17:59
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Unicorn made it literal text that the embryonic Federation government inserted a line into a legal document that stated that if magic space people emerged in the future they should be given priority in the government years before people lived in space colonies en masse and decades before Zeon proposed the idea of newtypes. It's not particularly concerned with being coherent! The Federation and the colonies existed in a state of relative peace and prosperity(and continuing expansion, given Side 7 is under construction) for nearly 80 years prior to the Zabi family staging their revolution. Again, literally every other colony refused to join the Zeon revolution, including several of them resisting the idea to the point of their own total destruction. It's the barest simple logic that if the Federation was truly awful that at least one of the other colony groups would have gone "man, you guys have a good point, gently caress the Feddies" and joined in rather than quite literally fighting to the death against the idea. Zeon had all the cards in their hands at the start of the war. The "new antagonists" that continually rise up are almost all lost causers chasing the Zeon dream from the original OYW until you hit the F91 era and they finally finish dying off and get replaced by "everyone from Jupiter is a monster". The sole antagonist faction in the early UC that isn't just more Zeon lost causers are the Titans, who are only able to come to power specifically because Zeon lost causers keep trying to start wars. Kanos fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Feb 29, 2024 |
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Feb 29, 2024 18:48
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ImpAtom posted:The Federation is the US government. Zeon are the Jan 6ers. You can acknowledge the many and varied flaws of the former while still going "gently caress those guys" to the latter. This is a fairly good comparison, given that Zeta was brought up. The AEUG's original goal was to fix the problems with the government from within - it's why Blex is involved with the Federation parliament - rather than to throw the whole thing out.
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Feb 29, 2024 19:22
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Fivemarks posted:The best way to make sure that there's no more Zeon after the One Year War is to just give suffrage and voting rights to Spacenoids. It's loving insane that being able to have political rights in the Federation is contingent purely on "Do you live in space or not" because it seems like any policymaker with half a brain would go "No, if you don't give the majority of the human race political rights, they're going to not be happy with rule by an elite." Is it actually outright stated anywhere that spacenoids don't have suffrage? IIRC Cameron Bloom was from Side 6 and he was a government official in CCA, and I'm fairly sure Blex Forer was a spacenoid.
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Mar 1, 2024 01:09
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^^ haha, same thoughts ^^ I think there's an important divide between Zeon-the-faction and Zeon-the-ideology, especially after the OYW. Zeon-the-faction is straight up cartoonishly evil. They're a movement led by a singular family of decadent nobles that have concentrated as much power as possible in their hands and have used the philosophy of a dead political figure(who they may or may not have assassinated, as it's left deliberately vague) as set dressing to justify a genocidal war of conquest whose openly practiced policy is "submit to us or we will kill every man, woman, and child and then use the empty shells of their homes as ammunition to kill our other enemies". They border on Star Wars Empire levels of "whoa, maybe turn it down a notch". Zeon-the-ideology isn't evil or even really wrong. It's a movement that comes into being because the OYW irreparably broke everything and the constant aftershocks and fallout of that conflict prevented any attempt to even effectively staunch the bleeding, nevermind effect meaningful repairs. Life in both space and on Earth starts to suck increasingly more and more for anyone who isn't part of the shrinking ranks of the political elite, and the people with influence and power who are good enough people to want to actually make an attempt are increasingly sidelined or simply die off in the process of trying to help(Blex and Hayato are examples here). In this situation of hopeless despair, people start to need something to cling to in the belief that something can possibly change, and the only symbol that ever credibly resisted the status quo was Zeon. The atrocities get sanded off or deliberately memory holed because the point isn't necessarily "we love the Zabis"(unless your name is Gato or Delaz, of course), it's "things cannot continue as they are and we're rallying against the status quo". Early CCA Char, when he's shmoozing everyone up to set up for his Axis play, is a good example here. He talks about the plight of the colonists at Sweetwater and openly negotiates with the Federation to try to gain the resources to improve things. He's lying, of course, because he's setting up for his own genocide play, but it's extremely easy to understand why people would go "hallelujah we finally have a savior with some clout" and follow him. I have issues with a fair amount of Unicorn's stuff but I do quite enjoy the bit at Palau where they show what post-CCA colonist life is like and where people are functionally praying to Zeon, because it's a good illustration of how Zeon would have had such staying power as a concept despite the Zabis committing so many atrocities that they make Hitler and Stalin look gentle. Kanos fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Mar 1, 2024 |
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Mar 1, 2024 13:06
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Lemon-Lime posted:I wholly and sincerely love Dougram and the land reform arc is a big part of why, which makes me sad that it's unlikely we'll ever have another show like it. I do basically agree that it's meaningful to separate Remnants from just Zeon followers - there's a lot of Lost Causers in the shows we see who are absolutely drinking the Zabi koolaid long after the fight is over that are specifically nursing a grudge about the war rather than simply turning to Zeonism for some kind of hope. The Delaz Fleet is the biggest example. I think Char's Neo Zeon and the Sleeves are a little complex in ways that differentiate them from Zabi remnants like Delaz and the Axis Fleet, though. CCA Neo Zeon is basically completely divorced from the Zabis in philosophy and objective but is utilizing Zabi methods(extreme violence/atrocities) to achieve Deikun's ideological goals(forcing humanity to migrate into space en masse) rather than simply going for Zabi-style governmental overthrow and conquest. The Sleeves have basically lost Char's Neo Zeon's ideology but are still holding their organization together through hero-worship of Char Aznable(in the form of Full Frontal) because Char Aznable was the last symbol they had that gave them a hope of any kind of success. Their stated goal is a lot closer to the Zabis(destroy the Federation and establish colonial dominance) but they're trying to do it through much less openly belligerent means(economic blockade), though that of course is probably largely down to lack of means to try to achieve direct military victory rather than actual restraint. Kanos fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Mar 1, 2024 |
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Mar 1, 2024 14:16
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Fantasy politics are way more fun and less depressing to talk about than real politics.
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Mar 1, 2024 15:25
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Contolism is funny because it's simultaneously incredibly optimistic(humanity has the infinite potential of the stars beating within their chests and is on the cusp of evolving into a superior species) and incredibly pessimistic(humanity has hosed up the earth and literally cannot be trusted to change their ways or live on earth responsibly so we have to force everyone into space and make earth a walled nature preserve).
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Mar 1, 2024 15:42
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Zanscare is functionally a theocracy, so their rank and file troops are almost definitely intended to have somewhat of a whiff of incomprehensible fanaticism about them that "normal" people don't get because they haven't bought into the religion. The closest thing Gundam had to it before that point is the pseudo-spiritualism about newtypes and souls being weighed down by gravity, but aside from some philosophizing Zeon was totally secular.
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Mar 3, 2024 11:18
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Runa posted:I remember A New Translation coming out and then some morons online thinking this meant ZZ wasn't canon anymore. It was a stupid idea even pre-Unicorn, because CCA had already been made and CCA doesn't work at all if Zeta gets a (mostly) happy ending and Axis just peacefully fucks off.
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Mar 12, 2024 03:46
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Seemlar posted:ZZ and it's events are 100% irrelevant to CCA anyway so it was always weird to think ANT's ending starts some kind of canon chain reaction. Nothing at all changes. ANT's ending has Axis and all of its forces leaving the Earth Sphere after going "nah, we've decided that conquest isn't in the cards, later nerds." CCA is predicated on Axis and its considerable army being defeated and the actual Axis asteroid being left in the Earth Sphere to be occupied by the Federation, who then sells it to Char in exchange for Char's briefcases full of gold, so Char can do the whole Axis drop thing that is the main plot of the entire movie. Char is also able to slide into the leadership of the shattered Neo Zeon and reform it to follow him to do all this because Haman, its previous leader, is dead. You know, the Haman who loving hates Char and thinks he's a backstabbing piece of poo poo and wants to kill him. There would be a little friction if she was still alive!
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Mar 12, 2024 13:17
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Arbite posted:Unless Blex survives I still don't see the Earth Federation getting better. Even Blex was the fallback option after Revil. The Earth Federation's story in UC is basically the Simpsons bit where the roast pig keeps getting ruined in increasingly unsalvageable ways while Homer chases it and repeatedly yells "it's still good, it's still good".
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Mar 12, 2024 14:48
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Duo was always super popular in the west due to the combination of being the cool friendly wisecracking one while piloting the black scythe-wielding assassin gundam called the DEATHSCYTHE while calling himself the grim reaper. He's like the platonic ideal of what a 90s/early 00s 13 year old would want to be if they were a gundam pilot.
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Mar 15, 2024 03:02
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RevolverDivider posted:it’s because it has gays in it front and center so people like zeon apologists get real uppity It's partially this but I think it's also a SEED-esque "it's extremely popular and brought in a lot of new fans who haven't been marinating in Gundam for years already so they don't really appreciate the TRUE CLASSICS like me" reaction.
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Mar 18, 2024 17:13
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Gripweed posted:Re rise took that anchor and used it as a grappling hook to rise even higher I fully agree, but it is true that a lot of people never gave the show a second thought because it's the sequel to Divers.
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Mar 19, 2024 01:10
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It's pretty common in all forms of entertainment media for some people to automatically assume grimmer or more outwardly "mature"/serious stories are more complex and interesting by default. Game of Thrones functionally built a pop culture following by word-of-mouth selling itself as a much more mature and serious take on medieval fantasy instead of that elves and magic stuff for dumb nerds. Warhammer 40k is the poster child for "grimdark" selling an entire setting to a huge amount of people. 08th MS Team vs Wing was definitely the first real reckoning of this in the western Gundam fandom. Wing was more popular and more outwardly silly, so contrarians latched extremely hard onto 08th MS Team and promoted it as a gritty robot Vietnam instead of the melodramatic Romeo and Juliet retelling that it is.
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Mar 23, 2024 19:57
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This started before Mobile Suit Gundam really achieved any popularity, since both Wing and 08th aired prior to MSG on Toonami and their(and G Gundam's) success were a big reason why Bandai tried to push MSG in the west in the first place. Also while Mobile Suit Gundam is quite dark, its animation style looks a lot goofier and less "realistic" than 08th MS Team's much more modern and detailed OVA-level animation in the eyes of early aughts teenagers.
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Mar 23, 2024 20:15
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Waffleman_ posted:Also like, the Gundam was so scary because it had Amuro piloting it, and he was really good at it probably due to Newtype. There's a fair few pieces of UC media that do a decent job of selling non-Amuro Gundams as terrifying. There's even some previous animated examples. Thunderbolt was mentioned and does a fantastic job. 0080 has the Alex be a monster that effortlessly tanks a direct hit from the Kampfer's point blank chain mines before summarily blowing the Kampfer to pieces with a blurt of machine gun fire and then acting as a final dragon for Bernie to try to slay.
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Mar 24, 2024 03:11
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While I don't think that trailer gives us enough to chew on to really determine if the MC is disillusioned or not, I completely agree with not bothering to get worked up at the story writing of something that hasn't come out yet. Visual criticisms make sense but we don't actually know anything about the plot beyond "some zeon soldiers fighting in the OYW, oh no here's a spooky Gundam". Kanos fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Mar 26, 2024 |
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Mar 26, 2024 20:36
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Fivemarks posted:Gundam Side Stories set in the OYW have a really bad habit of it, actually. Not like, the animated stuff, but manga and games really love to do it. And I suppose it isn't really fair to use Code Fairy or Unicorn or IGLOO as an example, though. It's still probably a lot healthier to evaluate each story on its own merits instead of preemptively getting mad that it might be like other bad stories written before it. Mister Olympus posted:50% of this is also how SRW makes it so you can always redeem Gato but not Cima that's ballooned into perceived subtext for 0083 itself. which might be an ideological statement, might be passive misogyny but more likely is just because Gato is the main antagonist with a more personal connection to Kou and Nina, and Cima is not It's absolutely not because of any kind of ideological statement. It's because Gato was/is an extremely popular rival while Cima is a glorified bit character who has most of her character offloaded to material from outside the series itself. SRW also periodically lets you ally with/recruit Haman and it's entirely because Haman is cool as hell.
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Mar 27, 2024 01:30
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It's very easy to do a character-focused story about people wrapped up in a larger conflict without the ideology of that conflict consuming the entire narrative. It's what Mobile Suit Gundam itself does all the time. There's a ton of different angles you can take with Zeon characters in the One Year War without cheerleading for fascism. Hell, just using Mobile Suit Gundam alone: You have the honorable but clueless romantic aristocrat angle(Garma), the professional soldier who doesn't really want to be there but is following orders because he's a soldier and he's fighting for his men(Ramba Ral), the mysterious super ace who is working his own agenda(Char), the professional soldiers who really do want to be there and are totally into it(Tri-Stars), the smarmy dickhead officer who will do anything for his own gain(M'Quve), the grunts who aren't bad people but are caught up in a bad conflict(those dudes who drop the supplies for the refugees), and so on.
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Mar 27, 2024 04:07
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ninjewtsu posted:the idea that the contents of the box matter less than the fact that the federation hid the contents of the box and the blackmail opportunity that presents is fine, but the reality of what was actually being hidden is incredibly silly The hidden clause in the secret original draft of the U.S. constitution giving senatorial seats to little green men from Mars if they appear at some point in the future will come to light one day.
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Mar 28, 2024 14:22
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Yeah, removing human debris from the equation is outwardly a positive humanitarian move, but in terms of realpolitik it's removing an infinite supply of cannon fodder slave soldiers that literally anyone can amass from the equation and further monopolizing and concentrating all significant military force under the central government. Nobliss's death in the epilogue is notable because he's one of the slimiest fuckers in the show and survived the entire reformation entirely scot free and in a position of power, and only suffers the consequences he does because a group of terrorist assassins murders him rather than because the new status quo has any interest in punishing people like him.
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Apr 4, 2024 04:40
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Onmi posted:Yeah, it's sad. I'm not arguing the show has a happy ending. I'm arguing it has a bittersweet ending or a sad ending with some level of hope or light. I wanted a harrowing, soul-crushing, miserable ending where there was no hope or any light, or any sweetness to the bitterness. I wanted ash in my mouth. I wanted a bleak darkness of which there was no escape, the vanta dark ending. What about the show's writing or story would have warranted this "vanta dark" ending? The show's entire tone throughout was a fairly varied mixture of good things happening and bad things happening, with the ending being tonally consistent with that. It's never a hopelessly bleak show.
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Apr 4, 2024 09:14
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Napoleon Nelson posted:Iok not Leroy Jenkins-ing it up would have been a complete betrayal of the character given how many times he does it throughout the season. He kept rolling those dice and finally there wasn't anyone who could bail him out. Yeah, this is what makes Iok getting killed at the end not feel only like 100% fanservice bait to me. He established a very consistent pattern of absolutely moronic, nigh-suicidal decision making throughout the entire season and is repeatedly bailed out from suffering the consequences for these total fuckup blunders by the swift thinking and fast reactions of his subordinates and Julieta. Him doing the thing he's already done a lot one more time and nobody being in position to bail him out doesn't feel unearned. Kanos fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Apr 4, 2024 |
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Apr 4, 2024 16:52
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Arc Hammer posted:After 0079 most of the sequel shows in the UC feel more like their given conflicts follow the central cast, rather than the cast brushing up against a wider canvas like the original. The AEUG rarely feels like a larger movement and more like the entire war effort is centered around the Argama and whatever allies they currently have nearby. This is really funny in Gihren's Ambition Threat of Axis V(the one most people have played), where if you're playing the AEUG route, almost all of your named pilots are the Argama characters and if you let the Zeta plot play out you basically have no named pilots for most of the campaign.
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Apr 5, 2024 02:09
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