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If it still works as it used to, skill gain is actually vastly increased in arena mode.
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Oct 21, 2015 17:07
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Segway Rave posted:Can we really trust Spermy Smurf to be impartial when it comes to running a match that a family member is involved in? I'd be more worried about the fact that I'm both the most easily bribed commish, and the most easily bullied.
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Oct 21, 2015 17:11
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I have no complaints about my performance. I EFFECTIVELY killed someone and brutalized another before I went down.
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Oct 21, 2015 17:23
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A Yeti was finally something other than useless! 
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Oct 21, 2015 17:26
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Spermy Smurf posted:I'd be more worried about the fact that I'm both the most easily bribed commish, and the most easily bullied. Take this bribe money or I'll beat you up!
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Oct 21, 2015 19:15
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Captaindirtnap posted:General Question: Do our fighters gain skill through the course of a fight? I know everything is reset at the end, but could a really long, drag-out fight leave a fighter significantly more skillful for another opponent? Would a fighter with zero armor skill eventually wear that armor a bit easier as the fight goes on? Yes, that can happen. dasmause posted:So I have a couple of questions: What's "edge" and "stopping power" and what are benefits of high weight equipment? I have guesses, but I wanna confirm As far as what things do, a lot of times with Dwarf Fortress you kind of have to run off of statistics and/or guesswork. As far as skills and behavior, that just happens to be one I'm pretty confident about. If your fighter has something in his hands, that's his preferential weapon. He could be the world's greatest martial artist, but put a single woolen left sock in his hand, and he'll flap it at you forever. If he has multiple weapons (an axe and a dagger), he'll use the one he has more skill in most of the time. In case of a tie, including at zero, who knows. Given two axes, randomly he'll use the steel or the wooden one. The exception to this are 'opportunity attacks'. If the chance arises, an AI fighter will take whatever opening is given. This is where you'll see them kicking in the upper arms or biting off torsos or whatever. Fighting seems to cause more of these. If unarmed, I'm honestly not sure how skill weights the various unarmed attack methods.
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Oct 21, 2015 19:34
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The AI considers sharp damage a priority 90% or so of the time, to avoid slapping people with the flat of a sword too often, but this causes the problem when dual wielding a blunt and a sharp weapon, since you'll almost never use the blunt one, barring attacks of opportunity caused by the fighting skill. There are two kinds of damage: Sharp and blunt. Piercing is weird since it's technically both at the same time. Sharp damage is mostly about cutting and resisting properties of materials. Under most circumstances, material A can't cut material A, and you have a fairly strict ranking of materials from worst to best (equal materials are in the same line): tooth, leather silver, platinum copper (the most frequent exception to "A can't cut A" rule) iron, bronze steel adamantium In general, a person armed with a higher tier material can pretend the other person isn't wearing armor at all, but on the other hand their weapon is completely useless against equal and above tier armor. Howerver, armor thickness scales with the size of its wearer, so really small dudes like gremlins&co can't fully rely on this, especially when facing big guys. Weapon cuts will sever poo poo, and cause more bleeding than pain most of the time. Under most usual circumstances, this is all you really need to know about sharp stuff. Now, let's see where attack velocity, penetration depth and surface contact area come to shine. The faster a weapon goes, the more dangerous it is. The deeper a weapon can go, the more damage it can do, obviously. Dagger cuts have such a low penetration depth that sometimes they can't even reach skin through armor they've technically pierced. The larger the contact area, the more armor there is to resist the weapon, which can also alter how materials interact - namely, good weapons bouncing off bad armor. However, weapons with a large surface area can cause MASSIVE damage, and weapons that combine a large surface area with deep penetration tend to sever limbs a lot. Picks and their related skill are extra expensive because they have a high velocity and hit the surface/penetration sweet spot required for maximum carnage. Small surface area, deep weapon penetration = piercing damage (there's an exact threshold but I don't know the number) about which I'll talk later. In addition to this, there's also mass and the strength of the wielder to take into account. You see, the way sharp attacks work is that they cut through layers of armor, slightly slowing down, until they run into something that stops them. Then, the damage converts to blunt damage. A yeti with a bronze two hander might not be able to cut through a suit of adamantine mail, but the suit isn't rigid, and a good hit might still break his target's ribs or something. On the other hand, adamantium weighs about as much as styrofoam, and is, ironically, the worst weapon material for dealing with adamantine grade armor. Blunt damage is pretty much Hulk smash. You take something heavy, swing it with force, and hope the target breaks. It causes a small amount of bleeding, and a lot of pain in addition to broken bones. Armor quality is similar to the list above, except weight of the armor also mattere, so bronze armor is slightly better than iron armor (though also heavy enough to slow your fighter down a bit so it balances out), and platinum armor is better than copper armor. You don't have a strict weapon material hierarchy. Some are better than others, but they can all work on the same targets. The blunt material ranking is: copper silver platinum It's fairly simple: Blunt weapons are only really resisted by rigid armor. They're weakened (not stopped) by thick layers of meat, skin, and fat, which is why it's slightly weaker against big guys in general. The heavier your weapon is, the harder it hits. The stronger and more skilled the user is (agility kinda sorta adds to skill), the harder it hits. The smaller the contact area and the higher the velocity, the better it penetrates. This is why warhammers are so good. Also, hit something enough and it'll weaken, so even if you didn't break it on the first try, it will eventually give way. But again, large surface area means you hit a bigger part of your oponent, so platinum mauls get to explode people's torso's sometimes, despite not quite having the punch of the warhammers. There's more mechanics to this, but I ain't touching them since they're kinda complicated, and you don't really need them here. Pierci Nope Nope Nope Nope I am not even gonna try to explain that poo poo
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Oct 21, 2015 20:35
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Very nice, thanks a lot! Really cool to see that there's competitive balance in here. Also really cool to see that cooperating in building your characters for team combat is a thing that can help... but I hope nobody did it since our team also didn't my dad posted:Pierci Nope Nope Nope Nope I am not even gonna try to explain that poo poo Well, if sharp damage is penatration that converts into blunt, and blunt is blunt that stays as blunt, maybe piercing is penetration that stays as penetration? dasmause fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Oct 21, 2015 |
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Oct 21, 2015 20:50
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dasmause posted:Well, if sharp damage is penatration that converts into blunt, and blunt is blunt that stays as blunt, maybe piercing is penetration that stays as penetration? No, it just... Under normal circumstances it acts like sharp damage most of the time, albeit better at damaging internal organs at the price of not severing limbs nearly as well, except sometimes it acts like a blunt weapon when you don't expect it to, especially in its interaction with armor. And sometimes it looks as if it counts the blunt damage first and then converts to sharp. But when and how it decides to do that would take a looooot of words and some guesswork to explain. Strength is a factor, and so is the contact area and the weight of the weapon.
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Oct 21, 2015 21:55
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Also picking the optimal armor and weapons doesn't really decide the battle, since I somehow won wearing platinum armor using only my teeth. Though I wouldn't be surprised if toady modeled armor density as a way to limit impact depth (as per Newton)
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Oct 21, 2015 22:53
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Was going to do fight today, RL happened. Fight definitely tomorrow though! Possibly two!
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Oct 22, 2015 03:06
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So what about materials like Oak? and Great swords?
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Oct 22, 2015 03:09
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Godna posted:So what about materials like Oak? and Great swords? Oak is generally considered the worst material for anything except shields. An oak shield will block just as well as a steel shield, and is a whole lot cheaper.
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Oct 22, 2015 03:14
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Jazzimus Prime posted:Oak is generally considered the worst material for anything except shields. An oak shield will block just as well as a steel shield, and is a whole lot cheaper. They can even block dragonfire! 
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Oct 22, 2015 03:16
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And where do great swords or rather two handed ones fall on the whole table of weapons in the scale of things?
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Oct 22, 2015 04:58
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Godna posted:And where do great swords or rather two handed ones fall on the whole table of weapons in the scale of things? The great sword slashes the weapon table in the scale of things and the severed part sails off in an arc!
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Oct 22, 2015 05:07
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Crap crap crap. I only meant to measure it's effectiveness...now I've killed it 
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Oct 22, 2015 05:17
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Godna posted:And where do great swords or rather two handed ones fall on the whole table of weapons in the scale of things? Well, they're the largest sword weapon, so they primarily do slashing damage but can also stab (which they are less effective at than other swords). Because of their larger size, the larger races are more effective at wielding them, and with their greater mass they are more likely to cause blunt damage through armor than a smaller sword. Elves, humans, and molemarians can wield them two-handed; tigermen, werewolves, minotaurs, trolls, and yetis can wield them one-handed. The other races are too small to wield them at all.
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Oct 22, 2015 05:40
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One last question is Steel heavier then Iron? (Wouldn't mind seeing a post on armor too. That stuff was HUGELY informative to a someone whose dwarf fortress experience is boatmurdered)
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Oct 22, 2015 06:12
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Panty Thief posted:Dear Diary
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Oct 22, 2015 09:24
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Godna posted:One last question is Steel heavier then Iron? They actually have identical weight! Steel has better properties for armour strength and edged weapons, though. It's also technically more effective than Iron in blunt weapons (for... reasons, it's all to do with DF's material system), but Copper is nearly as good and Silver about so for way lest cost, so it's not worth it in the Arena. Speaking of blunt weapons, and I know it's been talked about, but it's worth pointing out the difference between the materials in actual weight (measured in g/cm3, and actually very close to real-life values, but blah blah blah the ratios are more important anyway): Iron/Steel (just for reference) - 7.85 Copper - 8.93 Silver - 10.49 Platinum - 21.40 So Copper has about 14% more weight than Iron/Steel but for lower Arena cost, works well as a baseline blunt weapon material. Silver nets a 17% weight increase over Copper for somewhat higher cost, but that increase could really mean something (as Turquoise Tonic demonstrated so violently in the first fight). Platinum, however, is in a whole other universe, at a massive double the weight of Silver. Anyone hit by a platinum war hammer is going to be in a world of pain, if not splattered all over the place - but that weapon costs 750 points, so it isn't likely that the wielder has much skill or protection. Armour I'm less sure, what I know has mostly been covered. Here's some general info on weapon and armour performance by type. Mr. Vile posted:Dear Diary Engraved on the wall is a masterfully designed image of Panty Thief the yeti and a flesh pretzel by Spermy Smurf. Panty Thief is striking menacing a pose. The flesh pretzel is screaming. The artwork relates to the creation of the flesh pretzel in the Arena by Panty Thief in midspring(/autumn) of 2015. Coucho Marx fucked around with this message at 10:47 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 10:24
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It is worth warning that (IT SEEMS THAT) if you are using a super heavy weapon and your gladiator isn't strong enough to really utilize it, your damage potential goes way down. In Yetibrawl I gave a slade mace to my dude and WHOOPS. You have some outlier chances to deal some good hits, but mostly you are going to lightly bruise people because you can barely lift your comical weapon. Big gently caress-off platinum weapons might do sort of the same thing for normal-sized gladiators. Someone can either back me up or explain why I am wrong here though.
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Oct 22, 2015 13:01
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 Round 1, Random Fight #3Sorry for skipping around on fights. I do an online roll 1d8 and pick whatever fight it tells me as long as I'm not in it. Also: I really really really dislike the new 'upload a bunch of pictures' thing on Imgur. Used to be so simple to hit "next picture, copy code." Now I have to scroll down to the picture I want, move my mouse in a specific area of the picture that is usually hidden, then move to the right block to hit 'copy code.' If anyone can tell me how to upload the old way I'd love it. And I will consider it a bribe that will absolutely not help your team because gently caress that. Team 13: Heavyweight Horrorshow has homefield advantage. This is by far my favorite team so far because just look at those names!  The fighters are: Here comes Mongo! is a male Troll fighter managed by Endorph. Mongo is a big dumb animal wearing a bit of armor and carrying no weapon. sn is a male Molemarian fighter managed by ZeeToo. sn will be called Shorty for the fight. He carries a copper spear and a helmet. Face is a male Troll fighter managed by Godna. I can't stop laughing. Holy poo poo. He's got a wood sword and a little iron armor. omg Jakob is a male Werewolf fighter managed by frankenfreak. Dual wielding mauls makes this gladiator terrifying. They are copper, so pretty light, but we'll see what happens! This Bites are the visiting team. They are: Knife Toseeu is a female Strangler fighter managed by synthorange. Strangler build with a copper dagger and nothing else? Interesting! Sun Tzulander the Philomodel is a male Elf fighter managed by Keru. Have we ever seen an unarmed elf? The armor is impressive, but no weapon makes me question everything. Roland Gorchnik is a male Human fighter managed by Maarak. This is my new favorite team. Music blares as he enters the arena wearing his glowing blue shirt. Eyeteeth IV is a male Werewolf fighter managed by Revenant Threshold. God drat this loving team is great. Two shields, armor, and a mouth full of teeth are this gladiators weapons. For the second fight in a row we've got a group of huge guys against a group of littler guys.  They gladiators line up.  They charge together with a roar.  Mole blood shoots across the floor as Toseeu the Strangler stabs his left hand and fractures the bone. Eyeteeth slams a bucker into Face's head which stuns the troll. Roland takes advantage and lashes the troll in the foot and fractures bone.  Shorty stabs his spear into Toseeu's chest but the wound is superficial. Sun Tzu, the unarmed elf, wades into the battle. A punch destroys Shorty's left ribs! Eyeteeth, in the middle of the fray, takes time out of his other opponent to bite the moleman in the chest, brusing his lung! Mongo gores Toseeu in the head with a tusk but just bruises fat. Toseeu stabs the troll in the left arm in retaliation.  Toseeu doesn't let up. A second thrust finds Mongo's neck and fractures his spine! A third strike fractures the trolls right shin. Mongo goes down and passes out immediately! Roland lashes Shorty in the arm, fracturing bone. Jakob finally arrives in the fight and scratches Roland so hard in the hand that he drops his whip! Face swings his huge oak sword and connects solidly with Rolands chest. Too bad it doesn't do poo poo. Jakob bites Roland in the left leg and Roland passes out from the pain! Eyeteeth scratches Face in the left arm with force, and Face falls unconscious too. Toseeu stabs Shorty in the foot, causing the moleman to fall to the floor. Shorty sends his spear into Toseeu's lower leg, and Toseeu passes out from pain as well. That was a pretty impressive flurry of activity!  Four fighters are unconscious. Two are struck down immediately. Shorty gets a kill by stabbing Toseeu twice in the head with his spear. Jakob slams his maul down on Rolands head until his skull explodes.  Let me draw you a word picture. Team This Bites has 2 fighters left alive. They are at roughly 80% capacity and 100% untouched. Heavyweight Horrorshow has 2 fighters that aren't unconscious. Only one of them is worth a poo poo right now. The moleman is technically alive, but he can't stop throwing up, and moving is out of the question from the stabbings he's received. Sun Tzulander is up top facing off with Jakob, while his teammate Eyeteeth eyes the unconscious troll at his feet.  Sun Tzu dodges around Jakob and punches Shorty a few times, bruising and gore-ifying random bodyparts. He probably should have paid attention to the huge werewolf chasing him though. Jakob catches him from the side and bruises him soundly with his copper mauls. Finally he lands a solid strike on the elf's foot, shattering it in a jillion pieces. Another followup smashes the elf's right hand into paste as well. Eyeteeth is down there just hammering away at the unconscious troll with both of his bucklers. He is completely unable to crush his skull, but he keeps trying with single minded determination. Sun Tzu calls out for help.  Eyeteeth doesn't hear him and continues pounding on Face's Face. Jakob fininshes off the prone elf easily.  GIF Jakob doesn't hesitate and charges toward the only surviving member of This Bites.  Jakob's charge is met with Eyeteeth's own charge. Jakob falls to the floor, stunned. Eyeteeth is breathing heavy from trying to shatter Face's head with just a pair of bucklers.  Instead of pressing his advantage, Eyeteeth moves north and begins pounding on the already-broken Shorty. The moleman is a glutton for punishment, that's for sure. Jakob pursues, throwing his mauls non-stop at the opposing werewolf. Eyeteeth dodges, blocks, and then realizes he's severely out-skilled. He darts forward and sinks his teeth into Jakob's thigh and shakes the werewolf terribly.  Shorty swings lazily from the floor, trying to distract Eyeteeth. Shorty passes out moments later. Jakob and Eyeteeth trade blows, bites, scratches... Jakob appears to be losing the battle. But whats this? Face stands the gently caress up and lumbers back into the fray! The distraction is all Jakob needs! A final well placed scratch is enough to send Eyeteeth to the ground, unconscious.  Face, Jakob, and Shorty swing repeatedly at the downed werewolf but his helmet is impenetrable. Twenty minutes later Mongo regains consciousness and pulls his torn body close to the enemy. He wraps one huge arm around Eyeteeth's neck and squeezes. Mongo gets the final kill.  The survivors. Winner: Heavyweight Horrorshow Combat Log Spermy Smurf fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 14:05
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Good teamwork there.
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Oct 22, 2015 14:53
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Mongo carried that match. I'll take my adoration now.
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Oct 22, 2015 14:58
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Truly brilliant work to pretend to be asleep and useless for most of the match. Really lured them into a false sense of security.
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Oct 22, 2015 15:12
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Nice work, Horrorshow. Amusingly brutal fight!
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Oct 22, 2015 15:15
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I love that I was just sort of hanging out in the fight and then died. Yay for terrible builds.
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Oct 22, 2015 15:50
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Keru posted:I love that I was just sort of hanging out in the fight and then died. Yay for terrible builds. Your build surprised the crap out of me. My writeup doesn't really touch it, but Toseeu the knife strangler stabbed a couple guys, you came in and drew their fire. Toseeu got to stab some more people because you drew their fire. Your team was very close to winning that fight. If Eyeteeth had gone after the only standing opponent to help Sun Tzu it would have been nearly a guaranteed victory for your team. Instead he didn't move to help and left you 1v1 against a larger opponent and you were injured previously.
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Oct 22, 2015 16:02
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So yeah. I may actually know NOTHING about what I'm doing  .so uhh...lets see definitely upgrading that weapon and getting a hat ASAP. What is the difference between fighting and weapon skill? I flipped back and forth because I didn't know several times. Also that fight was beautiful  Two teams ineffectually unable to finish things.The image of an angry catman repeatedly smacking and stupid loving troll in the face with a shield is almost comical Godna fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Oct 22, 2015 |
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Oct 22, 2015 16:26
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Godna posted:What is the difference between fighting and weapon skill? I flipped back and forth because I didn't know several times. Fighting is general fighting skill. I think of it like footwork and crap like that. Weapon skill is actually how good you are with that specific weapon.
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Oct 22, 2015 16:34
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I figured that much, but I figure one or the other would be effective in increasing ability to hit things. Face got his rearranged :V The write up just does not match the logs for how brutal Face's face was mauled
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Oct 22, 2015 16:39
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They sort of pair together. Level 5 weapon, and level 3 fighting is generally how most people do it. Keep them close to each other, but at higher weapon skill levels a lot of people seem to stop upgrading the Fighting skill.
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Oct 22, 2015 16:40
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Godna posted:So yeah. I may actually know NOTHING about what I'm doing weapon skill is more important as it deals with accuracy and parrying and i believe higher weapon skill has your fighter choose weak points more often.
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Oct 22, 2015 16:41
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Well then...it seems I chose poorly.
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Oct 22, 2015 16:48
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Oh yeah, I've made money! Go big guys!
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Oct 22, 2015 16:56
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Godna posted:The image of an angry catman repeatedly smacking and stupid loving troll in the face with a shield is almost comical
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Oct 22, 2015 17:00
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Well Face did what was made for. He FACE tanked. Also Mongo definitely carried the team...and considering how heavy the team is. He deserves a medal
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Oct 22, 2015 17:03
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My god, that fight was glorious. I am really surprised to have won. I take credit as the team Godna posted:So yeah. I may actually know NOTHING about what I'm doing When we got assigned teams, my first thought was to get in contact with you all and actually try to plan something. Then I saw Face and his wooden sword and realized there was no way to improve on perfection, so just let it sit. If you want to be more effective, yeah, get any sort of metal sword and, at least in my experience, any amount of weapon skill outweighs any amount of fighting. The great/terrible thing about DF is it's hard to know for sure.
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Oct 22, 2015 17:31
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If you're a snake with a hammer, extra fighting means you'll sometimes suddenly bite people, which is a good thing. If you're a human with a sword, extra fighting means you'll sometimes suddenly bit people, which is a bad thing. 
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Oct 22, 2015 17:33
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