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deimos
Nov 30, 2006

Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!


As a data point: ARM on AWS is crazy performance per dollar. But single threaded performance is a bit lackluster compared to the x86 alternatives.

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BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull


That's not much of a data point on single threaded performance since the ARM cores available on AWS are not anything like the ARM cores Apple would be using in ARM Macs. Particularly not if you were using the first-gen AWS A1 instances, based on ARM Cortex-A72 cores (an old ~2015 design first implemented on 28nm).

AnandTech has been running SPEC2006 against Amazon and Apple ARM processors (and others too), as well as Intel and AMD x86. While these results should be taken with a grain of salt, you may find them interesting. Take special note of 403.gcc, one of the least-gameable and most reliable subtests of the SPECint2006 suite.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1489...nd-max-review/4
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1557...intel-and-amd/5

Short version: the A13, in an iPhone where it is regulated to draw very little power, is shockingly close to the 9900K, a desktop processor (which, by being designed for the desktop, has advantages in 1T performance over most server processors, which tend to focus on packing in a lot of cores at lower clock speeds).

I doubt the A13 in the context of an iPhone can sustain those performance levels indefinitely. But give it a laptop power profile and it could be quite good.

I've been skeptical of ARM Mac stories for a long time, but only because I question the economics for the big Macs (especially the tower Mac Pro). Apple has the CPU core and SoC design expertise to do this if they have the will to pay for it. We'll see if this story is just another Bloomberg tech story in a couple weeks; if it's real, though, I expect they'll have very good performance to show.

Penisaurus Sex
Feb 3, 2009

asdfghjklpoiuyt


Just because a processor design is very efficient and powerful at X power design doesnít mean it will be even more powerful and efficient at a 5X power design, right?

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull


Penisaurus Sex posted:

Just because a processor design is very efficient and powerful at X power design doesn’t mean it will be even more powerful and efficient at a 5X power design, right?

Entirely correct, and this is something that is often missed.

However, being so close to state of the art desktop single thread performance at phone power levels strongly suggests Apple can target laptops and desktops without too much trouble. They don't have to shoot for 10x or even 2x their current performance to beat Intel's single threaded performance; it's more like 1.25x. Here's a link to some more AnandTech SPEC2006 tests, this time to show some scores for the i9-9900K:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1466...ice-lake-10nm/4

On 403.gcc: 9900K scores 59.45, Apple A13 scores 55.36 (higher scores better)

That's drat close, and somewhat amazing considering one's a phone with probably a ~5W power budget for the whole phone (and governors to keep the average well below that), and the other's a 5 GHz 95W monster.

The big question is this: How will they address the true pro market, where they need a chip that's competitive with a big Intel Xeon? (They just recently shipped a new design Mac Pro with the best CPU option being a 28-core Xeon W.) That's a bit more challenging than scaling a phone design by a factor of 1.25x.

Technically, I'd guess Apple is more than up to the challenge. It's just a question of economics. They have to design something quite a bit different from a phone chip to meet those needs (note: this effort would be much more about the uncore than the cores). Since their volumes won't be high for such a chip, the engineering cost per unit sold won't be good.

otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

I wrote a long thing about the potential for multi cpu with multi cores each and yadda yadda could be great for task switching and multitasking, etc. does nothing to un-piss me off.

Djarum
Apr 1, 2004

I promise, that one day, everything's going to be better for you.



Soiled Meat

I personally think it is a major miss step if they do go through with this. A can tell you for a fact that the only reason why Apple has gained market share in the business sector has been because their units can run Windows as well. If they start phasing out Intel based Macs you are going to see every business start phasing them out as well.

That says nothing for the software companies that for several finally got updated Intel MacOS software not that long ago. I somehow doubt they are going to put that level of investment in again.

The only thing I can think of is Apple is going to come out with a glorified Chromebook. ARM based, runs IOS programs and a stripped down MacOS. poo poo it out at 3-400 bucks you arenít eating into any of your existing products and you could probably sell a ton to schools instead of Chromebooks.

otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

Their logic has to be in part based on the overall number of sales in terms of people who use it for production systems, the real work of it. If they lose that number of sales annually which people won't be able to continue using their systems due to losing windows - can that be surpassed in terms of NEW sales to other industries such as more education, more consumer level stuff.
It seems they want to keep the customer who is a "creative" that draws something on their iPad, uses handoff to give it to their iMac, uses that to use adobe apps to fancy it up and send it off to printing or whatever. The professional that needs higher power might be an acceptable loss with the trade off.

mods: change the title to " Hackintosh 2020: Change is a good thing the end of the line.

Crunchy Black
Oct 24, 2017

CASTOR: Uh, it was all fine and you don't remember?
VINDMAN: No, it was bad and I do remember.




Binary Badger posted:

What's on there right now? You should just download dosdude1's Catalina patcher which will create and patch a USB installer for you and do a clean install by booting from that USB it creates.

I've got the patcher, currently on Mojave. I was hoping it would fix the issues I'm having both with my BeatsX (randomly dropping mic requiring a restart) and PowerBeatsPro (will pair but never actually connect or pass audio).

LODGE NORTH
Jul 30, 2007




!
___






In dumb people terms, what does switching to ARM mean for Hackintosh people?

Binary Badger
Oct 11, 2005

Trolling Link for a decade



Crunchy Black posted:

I've got the patcher, currently on Mojave. I was hoping it would fix the issues I'm having both with my BeatsX (randomly dropping mic requiring a restart) and PowerBeatsPro (will pair but never actually connect or pass audio).

Didja try downloading the Beats Updater? I had an issue where my PowerBeats3 wouldn't connect to my rMBP until I updated it.. My PB Pro refused to configure Hey Siri until I updated it to the latest, dunno how I got an early firmware on it when I only bought it 3 months ago..

Binary Badger
Oct 11, 2005

Trolling Link for a decade



LODGE NORTH posted:

In dumb people terms, what does switching to ARM mean for Hackintosh people?

Pretty much means you're gonna be running Mojave or Catalina and maybe the next 10.16 (Monterey? El Segundo? Pismo Beach?!) but probably not anything after that if it's not released on Intel.

Apple's A13/14 ARMs are likely to be proprietary builds that won't work with the generic ARM desktops out there.

otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

Apple left us at El Segundo (the Tribe Called Quest song referenced is now 30. I am old.)

KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD
Jul 7, 2012



Fallen Rib

otter posted:

Additionally, when I look into the future I see the merger of iOS and MacOS
I don't know why you say this, apple is heavily resistant to combining the two as a fundamental principle.

Binary Badger
Oct 11, 2005

Trolling Link for a decade



Yeah and on top of that, pretty much the whole Apple crew (Cook, Hair Force One, Phil Schiller) has stated at one time or another that iOS and macOS shall ever remain distinct OSes, but that there's nothing that says they can't borrow elements from each other.

Hell, Apple has already branched iOS into tvOS and iPadOS. And there's a more recent rumor that Apple plans on forking off iOS into its old name, iPhoneOS.

Chris Knight
Jun 5, 2002

And I'm only saying this because I care.

There are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing.



Fun Shoe

LadyOS, RaspberryOS, OSdry...

otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

Although they might not ever fully merge the code base of the two, interoperability is most definitely the way they are heading. I don't mean to imply that it's going to be the exact same OS. It will be as above, more like the iOS/iPadOS forking. Apple needs to keep the product lines differentiated enough, and keep features in MacOS that aren't in iPadOS for instance or else they lose their market share and we go back to the 2% days. But what will those features be? For a large percentage of users these days an iPad Pro can replace a laptop entirely. For an IT pro? Design pro? Probably not so well but for Bob the realtor? Yes.

Under-the-hood differences aside, the future of MacOS is having iOS apps seamlessly handed off between the two. Put your iPad Pro next to your iMac and slide the photoshop task you were working on over, crank away with the higher power of the mac and slide it back over to the iPad like a slightly less flashy version of the computer in Minority Report (which let's face it, we have all been waiting for on some level). I am not super opposed to this in principle because I'd like to be able to run say, Yahtzee with Buddies on my main system while i'm working and then pick it back up on my iPhone when I'm not at my desk.

The only thing that any of us know for sure for sure is that the move to ARM means the end of hackintoshing as we know it now, which is the relevant part to this thread. I am sure that someone will come up with an emulator of some level that will either run somewhat like Clover/OpenCore or will run out of Linux and virtualize the thing. It won't be what we have now. Is this a bad thing? Not for Apple as a company per se, but for hackintoshers yes for sure.

I put 0 stock in what the C Suite at Apple or any other company says about their future plans out loud to the public.

Cough Drop The Beat
Jan 22, 2012

It's your HPV, Veronica. I'm just carrying it.



Hackintosh systems as a working concept are far more in danger when 10.16 kills the kext model compared to ARM Macs coming into prominence, since Intel x86 support isn't going to be dropped for years. PowerPC support wasn't dropped until the end of Leopard's final release 4 years after Intel Macs were a thing. I assume Intel Mac support will last so much longer than PowerPC did considering that x86 is a widely supported architecture everywhere on the planet, unlike PowerPC's near death state back in 2009. Besides, Apple won't be turning off the Intel switch overnight when ARM app migration is a whole other immensely complicated can of worms compared to PowerPC -> x86.

Hackintosh machines are absolutely on watch past Catalina likely due to reworking the kext driver model, sure, but the last nails in the coffin won't be happening for several years past ARM Macs even releasing at all.

Cough Drop The Beat fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Jun 19, 2020

otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

I agree that there's some time left and we shouldn't smash our hackintoshes in the streets quite yet.
I was thinking about this (instead of working and I seriously need to get some work done but ADHD and work are not compatible today) and until Monday we won't know much for sure, but Catalina is -probably- going to be the last version with user-accessible kexts that we can tinker with. When you think about it they only typically support systems for what? 4 OS releases after original? Which these days is 4-5 years.
I can see 10.16 checking for a T2 prior to install / boot. No unofficial hardware after that. Last machines that didn't have one where released in what? 2017? So 4 years after that is 2021/2022, when the ARM macs would start rolling into showrooms. And that's just a nicety, it's not a requirement that they support for that long. They can easily play it off and say, "Well gee, we had so many problems with the cylindrical mac pro that we want to move forward." So it's really all the same point of convergence for the end of hackintoshing (as we know it currently).

Also, I could see this going in phases in which consumer gear goes in 1 phase and pro gear in the next since the cheese graters just came out. It's probably a 2-4 year total transition from start to finish.

Admittedly, Apple doesn't owe us anything in terms of support. We run on unsupported hardware. It's in the definition.

Crunchy Black
Oct 24, 2017

CASTOR: Uh, it was all fine and you don't remember?
VINDMAN: No, it was bad and I do remember.




otter posted:

It's probably a 2-4 year total transition from start to finish.

Admittedly, Apple doesn't owe us anything in terms of support. We run on unsupported hardware. It's in the definition.
This is the important context.

Binary Badger posted:

Didja try downloading the Beats Updater? I had an issue where my PowerBeats3 wouldn't connect to my rMBP until I updated it.. My PB Pro refused to configure Hey Siri until I updated it to the latest, dunno how I got an early firmware on it when I only bought it 3 months ago..

I'll try it, thanks!

Binary Badger
Oct 11, 2005

Trolling Link for a decade



otter posted:

I agree that there's some time left and we shouldn't smash our hackintoshes in the streets quite yet.

We've got Catalina running on Mac Pro 3,1s, 4,1s and 5,1s, I've a feeling 10.16 will be hackable to work on the same machines.

quote:

I was thinking about this (instead of working and I seriously need to get some work done but ADHD and work are not compatible today) and until Monday we won't know much for sure, but Catalina is -probably- going to be the last version with user-accessible kexts that we can tinker with. When you think about it they only typically support systems for what? 4 OS releases after original? Which these days is 4-5 years.

Maybe leaning more towards four. Sierra (10.12) was introduced in 9/16, but received its last Security Update on 9/19. You could probably make a case that when Security Update 2020-001 came out for High Sierra in January 2020 and NOT Sierra, you could consider Sierra was officially shitcanned as of that release. High Sierra was released 9/17, so you could argue that if the pattern continues, High Sierra will get its last Security Update this year and when Security Update 2021-001 gets issued for Mojave and not HS, then it's been shitcanned too, and right on schedule after 4 years, approximately.

quote:

I can see 10.16 checking for a T2 prior to install / boot.

Mmmmm, nah, maybe it'll check for one but I doubt it'll refuse to continue the boot sequence if one's not there. I wouldn't bet on a T2 being required for boot until 2023, after the last 2015 rMBP can be considered vintage and kaput.

quote:

No unofficial hardware after that. Last machines that didn't have one where released in what? 2017?

Try 2015, the last of the venerable rMBPs. T1 chips appeared in 2016 rMBPs, then T2 chips in 2017 and later machines.

LODGE NORTH
Jul 30, 2007




!
___






"Years to come," they said. The crowd looked on. They knew it wasn't going to be for years to come.

Crunchy Black
Oct 24, 2017

CASTOR: Uh, it was all fine and you don't remember?
VINDMAN: No, it was bad and I do remember.




Yeah, 10.16, we're hearing that officially it's '11.0.' Is the harbinger. Next release will have T3/ARM and lock poo poo down for good.

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014



College Slice

Yeah, it was 11.0 in the video. Rip to the X

otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

Yeah, "years to come" to me meant 2 years and we're done with intel support, peace out homies.
I know for sure I am not buying a 1st gen ARM anything after all the bad experiences i've had with apple's 1st gen everything.
I almost bought a used macbook pro yesterday for $320 but decided to sleep on it. After this it seems the better idea for me is just to get the latest model iPad for $250 on sale. (web surfing, etc to replace my heavy sony laptop)

Chris Knight
Jun 5, 2002

And I'm only saying this because I care.

There are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing.



Fun Shoe

otter posted:

Yeah, "years to come" to me meant 2 years and we're done with intel support, peace out homies.
Lol no

otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.


id be willing to bet $5 adjusted for inflation that by the close of 2023 it's pretty well over for supported releases for intel macs

SourKraut
Nov 20, 2005

POST QUALITY UNDER CONSTRUCTION


otter posted:

id be willing to bet $5 adjusted for inflation that by the close of 2023 it's pretty well over for supported releases for intel macs

Given that the first Intel Macs were released in 2006 with Tiger, Leopard followed as the last supported OS to work on PPC-based Macs in 2007, and the final full update for Leopard came in 2009 (though there were minor updates up through 2011), it's not unreasonable to expect full support for at least Big Sur to be provided for Intel Macs through 2023 or 2024.

LODGE NORTH
Jul 30, 2007




!
___






Is there even a way to get around this for Hackintoshes? Like, what could possibly be done?

otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

SourKraut posted:

Given that the first Intel Macs were released in 2006 with Tiger, Leopard followed as the last supported OS to work on PPC-based Macs in 2007, and the final full update for Leopard came in 2009 (though there were minor updates up through 2011), it's not unreasonable to expect full support for at least Big Sur to be provided for Intel Macs through 2023 or 2024.

Quite true. It is not unreasonable to expect it. Does that mean I expect it? Not at all. And who am I? Just one dude, so whatever. But through 2023 is what I'm thinking. No new OS but maybe a critical security point release or something.

Apple is not obligated to roll support for hardware under some kind of memetic pattern. They can say ,"Moving Forward!" and drop support for a few pieces of hardware. We get upset when we have sunk money into that particular piece of hardware if we can't just afford or desire to up and replace it. That's where it becomes a sticky issue for people. Capitalism says replacing our hardware every few months is good for us. My cheap rear end says that battery aside, my iPhone 7plus works fine.

I find myself getting more and more "get off my lawn" by the day. I was eye-rolling through most of this morning's overly long wwdc video. I don't want my doorbell telling me who is at my door because I don't want it going through the tagged pictures. I don't want Photos knowing who's in my pictures or where they were taken. I don't like that Facebook knows sort of who I am because my wife won't stop posting pictures online (it thinks I am my brother). As much as it sounds like it, I do not even own a tinfoil hat, I just don't like social-media-anything. I don't want emoji, let alone bitmoji or memoji or even goji berries because it sounds too close.

And for the record, I WAS the same way about needing to get a USB mouse and printer when the iMac came out. it worked out for the consumer in the end.

FCKGW
May 21, 2006

aaaaaaaaaa
AAAAAAAAAAA
HHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!




LODGE NORTH posted:

Is there even a way to get around this for Hackintoshes? Like, what could possibly be done?

Nothing

SourKraut
Nov 20, 2005

POST QUALITY UNDER CONSTRUCTION


otter posted:

Quite true. It is not unreasonable to expect it. Does that mean I expect it? Not at all. And who am I? Just one dude, so whatever. But through 2023 is what I'm thinking. No new OS but maybe a critical security point release or something.

Apple is not obligated to roll support for hardware under some kind of memetic pattern. They can say ,"Moving Forward!" and drop support for a few pieces of hardware. We get upset when we have sunk money into that particular piece of hardware if we can't just afford or desire to up and replace it. That's where it becomes a sticky issue for people. Capitalism says replacing our hardware every few months is good for us. My cheap rear end says that battery aside, my iPhone 7plus works fine.

I find myself getting more and more "get off my lawn" by the day. I was eye-rolling through most of this morning's overly long wwdc video. I don't want my doorbell telling me who is at my door because I don't want it going through the tagged pictures. I don't want Photos knowing who's in my pictures or where they were taken. I don't like that Facebook knows sort of who I am because my wife won't stop posting pictures online (it thinks I am my brother). As much as it sounds like it, I do not even own a tinfoil hat, I just don't like social-media-anything. I don't want emoji, let alone bitmoji or memoji or even goji berries because it sounds too close.

And for the record, I WAS the same way about needing to get a USB mouse and printer when the iMac came out. it worked out for the consumer in the end.
One caveat is that other areas, like the EU (and possibly California?), may require software support for some amount of time after release, similar to the required timeline for hardware support. If that's the case, and I don't know if it honestly is or not, that would help to guarantee at least some baseline level of continued support for a few more years.

otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

SourKraut posted:

One caveat is that other areas, like the EU (and possibly California?), may require software support for some amount of time after release, similar to the required timeline for hardware support. If that's the case, and I don't know if it honestly is or not, that would help to guarantee at least some baseline level of continued support for a few more years.

Such as security oriented point releases, not OS releases. edit: and I think they just have to provide written notice x months in advance of ending support.
I used to work for the state until 2018 when I switched agencies. They had just begun switching to Win10. They were paying MS a crazy amount for the extended service period deal they do (did?) The reason they moved on to 10? Not because of Microsoft moving forward but because of 3rd party apps they had to use that would no longer work in Win 7. That will be what pushes most people onto "greener pastures" of new hardware / new OS.

otter fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Jun 22, 2020

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

Bless You Ants, Blants



Fun Shoe

I think legally they are fine to do this - they will fix security issues for a good few years, they aren't going to remotely deactivate the machines, no functionality that existed when the computer was purchased is going away.

Djarum
Apr 1, 2004

I promise, that one day, everything's going to be better for you.



Soiled Meat

The bigger issues will be how the market reacts. I know there are a ton of companies that finally started allowing Apple purchases because they had Bootcamp/Virtualization support and that took awhile to happen. I am not sure who the market is going to be for these now as anyone doing any real work of any kind will run right towards a Windows machine now. Otherwise youíll see someone buy a iPad for a couple hundred and get basically the same functionality now.

The fact that they didnít really show any benchmarks compared to intel units it very telling as well.

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

Bless You Ants, Blants



Fun Shoe

For a lot of people if they can run Creative Suite, MS Office, and all their web pages work then that's all they need in a computer. All I do in my day job now is to use an i7 Dell XPS 13 to read email, write documents, use web apps and run PowerShell - I have no doubt that an ARM device could manage those things. If old versions of InDesign work well enough through Rosetta 2 to be able to drag files out of archive to compile them for a presentation then that will be acceptable, but any studio will probably keep some 'old' Mac Pros around for just that sort of requirement.

Connectivity is at the point now where people needing Windows desktops can run stuff on Azure/AWS and it performs great over LTE connections (it would be nice to see 5G functionality integrated into the portables) - the few customers we have that used to virtualise Windows on Mac or run Boot Camp have almost all transitioned to hosting the Windows desktops somewhere else.

Thanks Ants fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jun 22, 2020

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


It's been only a year since they rolled out an Intel Mac on $700 wheels. Relax, dudes. You will, eventually, have to stop, but I don't think see that day coming until 2023. And unless you're super wild about your gaming PC and your iPhone sharing iMessages or whatever, I swear to god it's the arguments that MacOS to other systems are withering away further each year.

The people who are fuuuuuuuuuucked are the people who use this stuff in media production, but if you're using a Hackintosh to actually do a money-making job then .

FCKGW
May 21, 2006

aaaaaaaaaa
AAAAAAAAAAA
HHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!




Big Sur gonna be the Windows XP of Hackintosh. People 10 years from now trying to get it working on their 64-core Ryzen laptops.

LODGE NORTH
Jul 30, 2007




!
___






It's all still very wild to me that Hackintoshes as a whole are just going to...stop. And relatively soon too.

screamin and creamin
Sep 15, 2003



They said they're still going to sell new Intel Macs this year. I'm 100% sure those are only going to be supported for 1-2 years .

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otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

Craptacular! posted:

The people who are fuuuuuuuuuucked are the people who use this stuff in media production, but if you're using a Hackintosh to actually do a money-making job then .

Yeah, I learned the hard way to keep all my documents / data on a separate drive from my boot drive the hard way. I couldn't imagine running a production machine off a hackintosh if my finances depended on it. That being said, I have an older (mountain lion running on a Core 2 Duo) hackintosh in my garage which is basically for you tube / web to look stuff up at my toolbench. That thing is so rock solid that if it wasn't so slow and still go security updates I would trust it all day every day. Just clone your OS/Boot drive and keep your data duplicated (note: do not seriously consider using a hackintosh when your financial well being is on the line.)

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