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BiG TrUcKs !!!
Feb 25, 2007


Who would drop thousands of dollars on a Mac pro if they knew it wouldn't be supported in two years? There's no way they could drop support that soon. Can an ARM chip even compete with Mac Pro powerhouse??

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Djarum
Apr 1, 2004

I promise, that one day, everything's going to be better for you.



Soiled Meat

I have known a few people that use Hackintoshes for production and whatnot but they treat them like every mission critical machine. They arenít online and donít get updates. This is pretty common with music/video production though.

I have a feeling that this is going to be a test upon Apple. I canít see their ARM chips able to compete with end intel chips. I can see this being what pushes a lot of creatives to Windows as MacOS becomes a bunch of ports of the stripped down apps from the IPad.

otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

BiG TrUcKs !!! posted:

Who would drop thousands of dollars on a Mac pro if they knew it wouldn't be supported in two years? There's no way they could drop support that soon. Can an ARM chip even compete with Mac Pro powerhouse??

1 Professional video / audio people, photographers, editors, people with more money than we have that just want the best now and they'll replace it next year.
2 Sure they can drop it that soon. They're going all in with this one and it's not the worst idea from their position.
3 In theory, yes. As long as the software is compiled for and optimized for the architecture you are running it on and the system is burly enough it's an issue of how many operations it can execute between time A and B. We think of x86/x86-64/whatnot as being some sort of superior because that's what we are used to seeing in the mainstream. We don't really know what Apple has cooking. Is it basically a super-sized 27" non-touchscreen ipad pro? Maybe. Would 75% of users even know they aren't using intel? Probably not.

But who says they have to stick with 1 cpu? They might have something that has 16 A15x cpus in it that through some sort of voodoo cranks through video compression like a rackmounted boss. To some extent we have to free our minds from the marketing hype we have already experienced.

There was always the G3/Pentium G4/Pentium 2 and 3 debate. Each did things particularly well and others lagged. So optimization is going to be as important as anything else. The fact that Apple won't have to wait on another company to supply their parts AND doesn't have to buy the parts at even wholesale is going to make the cost/performance ratio situation really interesting.

SourKraut
Nov 20, 2005

POST QUALITY UNDER CONSTRUCTION


otter posted:

There was always the G3/Pentium G4/Pentium 2 and 3 debate. Each did things particularly well and others lagged. So optimization is going to be as important as anything else. The fact that Apple won't have to wait on another company to supply their parts AND doesn't have to buy the parts at even wholesale is going to make the cost/performance ratio situation really interesting.
One thing to note though is that even with Apple controlling the design of their custom silicon used in Macs now, they're still at the mercy of the Fab(s) they're using having the capacity available, AND at the mercy of said Fabs continuing node improvements. TSMC obviously is pushing 5nm currently, but at some point the reduction in node size will likely slow down more even for everyone once 3nm or possibly 2nm is reached, and that's when things definitely will be interesting to see what Apple can squeeze out of their design teams to make up for slower process improvements.

This is how I think Intel may end up come roaring back, since it's been honestly somewhat impressive what they were able to wring out of 14nm given their 10nm issues, so just imagine what they can do when they hit 5nm, then 3nm, and then their supposed 1.4nm process (if they actually are able to).

Crunchy Black
Oct 24, 2017

CASTOR: Uh, it was all fine and you don't remember?
VINDMAN: No, it was bad and I do remember.




You might be very surprised at the number of smaller media houses that don't have MacPro capital that hackintosh....

Cough Drop The Beat
Jan 22, 2012

It's your HPV, Veronica. I'm just carrying it.



Y'all have absolutely no clue what you're talking about if you honestly believe Apple is dropping Intel support before 2025 if not later. Current era Apple has 6-7+ years of solid support for their hardware. Sometimes much longer since you can run Catalina on 2012 Macbook Airs and mid 2012 Pros, both of which won't be legacy until Big Sur!!

FCKGW
May 21, 2006

aaaaaaaaaa
AAAAAAAAAAA
HHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!




BiG TrUcKs !!! posted:

Who would drop thousands of dollars on a Mac pro if they knew it wouldn't be supported in two years? There's no way they could drop support that soon.

They wont

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


otter posted:

Yeah, I learned the hard way to keep all my documents / data on a separate drive from my boot drive the hard way. I couldn't imagine running a production machine off a hackintosh if my finances depended on it. That being said, I have an older (mountain lion running on a Core 2 Duo) hackintosh in my garage which is basically for you tube / web to look stuff up at my toolbench. That thing is so rock solid that if it wasn't so slow and still go security updates I would trust it all day every day. Just clone your OS/Boot drive and keep your data duplicated (note: do not seriously consider using a hackintosh when your financial well being is on the line.)

I've been trying to control myself because I feel like going to the hackintosh thread to talk up alternatives is lovely, but I gave up my own Hack-Mac when Catalina removed Nvidia support for Linux. My primary reason was that game support is better there (excluding some weird exceptions like Fortnite) but if you have old hardware and just want rock solid stability you can still find some lightweight/middleweight distros that will support that hardware and be less vulnerable to the internet than Mountain Lion is.

It is slowly becoming a little bit more difficult to keep the creature comforts Mac/Windows users are accustomed to on C2D especially with only 2GB of memory, largely because of how everyone is beginning to insist on 64-bit, but if you can install/maintain a Hackintosh you could put MX Linux (a popular Debian derivative that uses a modified xfce) on that hardware and probably be set for a while. Just make sure you put /home (which contains preferences, settings, etc) on a different partition from the rest of the system so that if you do ever have to reinstall, your programs will keep your old settings out of the box.

Today there's also read-only support for APFS drives in Linux, which was great for me because I didn't so much leave my Hackintosh as make it unbootable by changing hardware and slowly decide it wasn't worth saving. I did manage to scrape all my personal files off the Mac partitions before wiping them.

Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jun 23, 2020

otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

I think the last time I had a Linux box as my daily driver it was... 2001? I tried installing mint / peppermint, and a couple of others and I just don't like it in the same way. I can't even remember the name of the one I liked the best and had on a laptop at work back in '15 or so. Corn or something Zorin. Maybe I'll download a modern version live CD or whatever the kids are doing these days and throw it on my laptop instead of working this afternoon.

Still, I will miss the elegance.

otter fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jun 23, 2020

Binary Badger
Oct 11, 2005

Trolling Link for a decade



Big Sur Beta 1 has already been successfully installed on 2012 Mac Minis and 2011 MacBook Pros using a hack/patcher (not from dosdude yet), so Hackintoshes should be coming up shortly.

Chris Knight
Jun 5, 2002

And I'm only saying this because I care.

There are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing.



Fun Shoe

SourKraut posted:

One thing to note though is that even with Apple controlling the design of their custom silicon used in Macs now, they're still at the mercy of the Fab(s) they're using having the capacity available, AND at the mercy of said Fabs continuing node improvements.
True, but Apple has a ton of money to throw at these problems, and had done so I the past (buying every available tiny HDD for the first iPod, buying up half a year's supply of SSD chips from Samsung at a stretch, etc. ) Tim if nothing else is a supply chain guy.

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


otter posted:

I think the last time I had a Linux box as my daily driver it was... 2001? I tried installing mint / peppermint, and a couple of others and I just don't like it in the same way. I can't even remember the name of the one I liked the best and had on a laptop at work back in '15 or so. Corn or something Zorin. Maybe I'll download a modern version live CD or whatever the kids are doing these days and throw it on my laptop instead of working this afternoon.

Still, I will miss the elegance.

Newer versions of KDE use as little memory as Xfce nowadays so long as the system isn't pre-configured bloatred, and can be adjusted to be very Mac-like. A modernized fork of the GNOME 2.x DE that ruled the late 2000s called MATE is also a decent option and even has a theming preset called Cupertino that most makes it resemble a mid-2000s Mac.

I'd say if you're especially hesitant to deal with advanced installers, give Ubuntu MATE a try. The new 20.04 is a long-term support release , so you won't have to deal with any major updates for two years, by which point you might finally retire that machine. Ubuntu did drop 32-bit binaries, but I ran GNOME 2.x x64 on a Conroe C2D E6600 with 4GB of RAM in 2010 and had no problems. Your average systemd-managed distro is not as elegant as retail Macs but usually no more difficult than a Hackintosh. You don't have to be Jeff K to set up a basic granny machine anymore.

EDIT: I should mention the distro Elementary, which leads the "most likely to get sued by Apple" sweepstakes. But I believe they aren't lightweight enough for machines over a decade old, and they currently have no upgrade system in place, requiring people format for each major new version.

Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Jun 24, 2020

otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

I actually advocated for the state to move to using a linux desktop / open office and save millions of dollars per year. Someone has a cozy relationship with microsoft and all the IT guys agreed with me.

SourKraut
Nov 20, 2005

POST QUALITY UNDER CONSTRUCTION


Chris Knight posted:

True, but Apple has a ton of money to throw at these problems, and had done so I the past (buying every available tiny HDD for the first iPod, buying up half a year's supply of SSD chips from Samsung at a stretch, etc. ) Tim if nothing else is a supply chain guy.

It's not something Apple can necessarily buy their way into though, because it takes years to potentially open additional Fab capacity at a particular node, and plenty of other customers have also reserved 5nm capacity. For example, TSMC just announced a US-based Fab in Arizona, on 5nm, and fairly small by Fab standards (only 20,000 wafers/month), and it still won't be online before 2023/2024. They have other Fabs coming online with 5nm well before then, but it gives an idea that it's not something they can quickly just turnaround with additional capacity.

And TSMC isn't like Apple - they report their long term contracts publicly, which is why my initial thought is that Apple probably procured the Huawei capacity that freed up to be used towards Mac-based ARM chips, versus the iPhone SOCs that everyone initially thought they were reserving it for pre-WWDC.

otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

Craptacular! posted:

EDIT: I should mention the distro Elementary, which leads the "most likely to get sued by Apple" sweepstakes. But I believe they aren't lightweight enough for machines over a decade old, and they currently have no upgrade system in place, requiring people format for each major new version.

I tried this out and it was really nice. Not MacOS perfect, but nice. I used it off the livecd version for about two hours on my laptop (sandy bridge i3) and it is much more responsive and faster than running windows 10. More tinkering ahead. Hopefully Big Sur's patching will make it mostly a non issue for at least a couple more years.

Crunchy Black
Oct 24, 2017

CASTOR: Uh, it was all fine and you don't remember?
VINDMAN: No, it was bad and I do remember.




Yeah I think all the doom and gloom is slightly overblown. There is zero chance that you don't get at least 2, maybe even 4 versions of macOS capable of being compiled for x86 machines due to the 2019 Pro. Now, do they have flags that require AVX512 instructions or some poo poo that make it essentially impossible to Hackintosh as we know it? Honestly, probably. But only time is going to tell, here.

T-man
Aug 22, 2010


Talk shit, get bzzzt.



since a lot of people only check bookmarks, you should know that our admin, lowtax, has been credibly accused of abusing his partner.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3928980

please do what you believe to be ethical.

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull


Crunchy Black posted:

Yeah I think all the doom and gloom is slightly overblown. There is zero chance that you don't get at least 2, maybe even 4 versions of macOS capable of being compiled for x86 machines due to the 2019 Pro. Now, do they have flags that require AVX512 instructions or some poo poo that make it essentially impossible to Hackintosh as we know it? Honestly, probably. But only time is going to tell, here.

I know you were just trying to think of an example but fyi that specific doom and gloom scenario is already ruled out: Rosetta 2 cannot run AVX instructions at all. Not just AVX512, all of AVX is not supported. It'd be a little bit crazy for them to do that in Rosetta 2 and add a dependency on AVX512 support in a future version of Intel macOS!

(this isn't as awful for x86 app compatibility as it sounds, btw. If app developers were doing things the right way, they should already have been calling APIs to detect whether the CPU supports AVX instructions and falling back to SSE2 if it doesn't, since not all Intel Macs are guaranteed to have AVX. Also there probably aren't a lot of Mac apps which use AVX that aren't getting ported quickly, heavy number crunching under an emulator ain't fun.)

SeANMcBAY
Jun 28, 2006

Look on the bright side.




So I guess this is a poor time to be asking about making a Hackintosh huh?

I just wanted something that I could run macOS for personal use (nothing super critical) on while also having a windows partition to play games.

LODGE NORTH
Jul 30, 2007




!
___






SeANMcBAY posted:

So I guess this is a poor time to be asking about making a Hackintosh huh?

I just wanted something that I could run macOS for personal use (nothing super critical) on while also having a windows partition to play games.

I kinda do exactly this. Or rather, using the parts I have, this was my goal, but I stopped playing games on my PC.

One thing I learned is that building a Hackintosh almost entirely just depends on the brand of the parts you get rather that super specialized parts - for now. If you build something with an AMD GPU, an Intel CPU, and an ASUS motherboard, you're probably golden. Obviously double check the parts to make sure you get the right stuff and not one of the few parts that aren't compatible.

~Coxy
Dec 9, 2003

R.I.P. Inter-OS Sass - b.2000AD d.2003AD

I think it's a bad time to make a Hack even completely ignoring the ARM thing.
High Sierra is almost unusable now.
Catalina is a bit of a shitshow in the first place and doesn't support NVidia. AMD "works" but is so hit and miss.
Pack it up boys, we had a good run.

otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

Iím a pretty big Catalina critic but it seems to be more stable now.
I miss a lot of apps that donít work anymore.
Iím trying to think of something that doesnít work right now and besides my printer / scanner Iím drawing a blank. I wonder if my 1st gen iPad would download music from it...

~Coxy
Dec 9, 2003

R.I.P. Inter-OS Sass - b.2000AD d.2003AD

I think Catalina actually fixed a problem I had in High Sierra syncing with my iPhone 3G...

oohhboy
Jun 8, 2013

It doesn't matter who hurt you, or broke you down, what matters is who made you smile again.

Running HS since they dropped NV support as I run a 1080ti, pretty dandy. Not sure what the problem(s) you are referring to Coxy.

~Coxy
Dec 9, 2003

R.I.P. Inter-OS Sass - b.2000AD d.2003AD

I had a 1080 and was running HS up until recently. Safari ages out of support so quickly and I was running into more and more software that wanted Mojave at minimum.

oohhboy
Jun 8, 2013

It doesn't matter who hurt you, or broke you down, what matters is who made you smile again.

Use FireFox so never a thing for me. Been using the alternate browsers like Netscape Navigator since forever. For a while it was Camino till development stopped. SO FAST.

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otter
Jul 23, 2007
word.

I just checked and firefox works with Mavericks and beyond. I missed Mavericks so the oldest I have an installer for is Sierra. I wonder if my old garage machine will run it on a legacy hardware install.

Of course now that I think about it, I have the machine that used to be my main machine (i3 but with a quirky gigabyte motherboard) that will definitely work in high sierra, because that's what I was running on it previously. I just need the quirk to go away. The mobo has the dual bios thing, but every time it reboots it's a huge ordeal because sometimes it will boot to clover, and sometimes it just reboots itself. When it boots to clover it SOMETIMES will move onto the boot options but most of the time it wants to auto-select the install and not load the OS.

Maybe now I have a project for when I have some downtime.

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