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Smashing Link
Jul 8, 2003

I'll keep chucking bombs at you til you fall off that ledge!

Grimey Drawer

Rollie Fingers posted:

I sold my iMac after successfully dabbling with Mac OS X virtualisation in KVM/Qemu with PCIe passthrough.

I only had the iMac for browsing the internet in my living room, and I prefer browsing on my Mac anyway because of the font rendering + magic trackpad 2. I thought my spare PC could be a good candidate to replace the mac since I have somewhere to hide it.

You’ll obviously need a Mac compatible second GPU to passthrough and I’d say the other important thing is having a motherboard that isn’t stingy with IOMMU groups so passing through USB controllers and sound becomes painless.

The performance is great. The pc is far more powerful than my iMac so it’s basically like using a Mac Pro. I’ve never used a traditional hackintosh before, but this virtual machine has no issues with updates or needing random kexts to keep it functioning.

I have an embarrassingly overbuilt Unraid rig that has given me a very good mac VM experience. Two different GPUs have worked well. Couldn't get USB controller passthrough to work so I ended up getting a cheap PCIe USB card but that's been the only issue.

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Rollie Fingers
Jul 28, 2002


Thankfully one of my USB controllers was in an IOMMU group with a couple of other things I don't need in Linux (like onboard sound) so after I passed through every ID in that group in grub, the USB controller has been working perfectly inside the VM.

Perplx
Jun 26, 2004


Best viewed on Orgasma Plasma

Lipstick Apathy

I had no problem passing all my onboard USB ports to the vm, I added a USB card so I could still manage the host. I had to use the acs patch to fix my iommu groups so I would recommend finding a board that doesnít need the patch.

Smashing Link
Jul 8, 2003

I'll keep chucking bombs at you til you fall off that ledge!

Grimey Drawer

Perplx posted:

I had no problem passing all my onboard USB ports to the vm, I added a USB card so I could still manage the host. I had to use the acs patch to fix my iommu groups so I would recommend finding a board that doesnít need the patch.

The problem with Unraid is that the OS is running off a USB stick and I couldn't split off any ports (as far as I could tell) as separate IOMMU groups. But I am a newbie. Also I'm running an older board so that could be part of it. a

Colostomy Bag
Jan 11, 2016

C-Bangin' it



Big Sur updated without a hitch.

Twenty minutes flat to update. Only one reboot. Was the most painless upgrade I've ever done.

Open core really takes the drama out of stuff.

lignicolos
Dec 6, 2001



Colostomy Bag posted:

Big Sur updated without a hitch.

Twenty minutes flat to update. Only one reboot. Was the most painless upgrade I've ever done.

Open core really takes the drama out of stuff.

Agreed. OpenCore is great. I did a clean install. Booted the installer off USB and wiped the macOS partition from my drive. Created a new one and installed Big Sur with zero issues.

knucklehead
Apr 29, 2004

concentrated and crosseyed a dangerous combination


So now with the M1 reviews kicking rear end does anyone think it is worth it to build a hackintosh? I had a working hackintosh until Maverick but had a motherboard failure and transitioned to a cheap dell server running windows 10. It is basically fine for what I do, web browsing and some light productivity stuff. I just miss the useful mac apps I got accustomed to. I have been looking at these new M1 mac minis and I feel like they could actually be affordable compared to building a hackintosh?

Clark Nova
Jul 17, 2004



The M1 is legit and it'll make a nice computer, assuming you can live with the current limitations (two monitors, 16gb max ram, expensive storage, no windows). It's cheap compared to building up a mid/high -end modern PC from scratch, but expensive compared to what IMO you should do for a hackintosh - get a dell optiplex or similar and replace the bluetooth/wifi

LODGE NORTH
Jul 30, 2007



My lustful desire is that the M1 chip leads to Apple making a drat near user-upgradeable Mac Pro in a few years as Intel stops being supported. I know it's super unlikely - probably closer to impossible - but man, that's exactly what would make me give up my Hackintosh.

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



LODGE NORTH posted:

My lustful desire is that the M1 chip leads to Apple making a drat near user-upgradeable Mac Pro in a few years as Intel stops being supported. I know it's super unlikely - probably closer to impossible - but man, that's exactly what would make me give up my Hackintosh.

That's like, the opposite of the the M1 portends, with everything being baking into the SoC.

KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD
Jul 7, 2012



they *could* make a socket based mac pro with apple silicon, but that would be extremely un-apple of them.

mewse
May 2, 2006




Remember when they made the trash can mac pro they thought everyone would use thunderbolt for expansion. I think I saw a M1 macbook air review saying they're using intel chips for thunderbolt connectivity. Sadly I think the chances that they build out memory slots or SATA.. or a cpu socket are pretty miniscule.

Thunderbolt is like external PCIe right? And they're hanging the thunderbolt off Intel chips external to the SoC. A Mac Pro with PCIe slots might be the most we can hope for

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull


mewse posted:

Remember when they made the trash can mac pro they thought everyone would use thunderbolt for expansion. I think I saw a M1 macbook air review saying they're using intel chips for thunderbolt connectivity. Sadly I think the chances that they build out memory slots or SATA.. or a cpu socket are pretty miniscule.

Thunderbolt is like external PCIe right? And they're hanging the thunderbolt off Intel chips external to the SoC. A Mac Pro with PCIe slots might be the most we can hope for

Apple implemented the Thunderbolt controller inside their own SoC. Those Intel chips people found in teardowns of M1 Macs are just Thunderbolt retimer chips. TB runs at a line rate of 20 Gbps, which is fast enough that it's super difficult to successfully get the signals through nasty evil things like connectors and almost any significant length of cable or PCB trace. So they sprinkle retransmitter / line conditioner ICs (aka retimers) at various points along the signal path to make it work.

Crunchy Black
Oct 24, 2017

CASTOR: Uh, it was all fine and you don't remember?
VINDMAN: No, it was bad and I do remember.




For all intents and purposes, thunderbolt/USB4 is PCIe, yes.

It helps that Apple was a signatory to the initial agreement and is probably a big reason Thunderbolt took off as well as it did.

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

And just think, all that loving bullshit just to avoid putting some PCIe expansion slots.

mewse
May 2, 2006




BobHoward posted:

Apple implemented the Thunderbolt controller inside their own SoC. Those Intel chips people found in teardowns of M1 Macs are just Thunderbolt retimer chips. TB runs at a line rate of 20 Gbps, which is fast enough that it's super difficult to successfully get the signals through nasty evil things like connectors and almost any significant length of cable or PCB trace. So they sprinkle retransmitter / line conditioner ICs (aka retimers) at various points along the signal path to make it work.

That's interesting. Is it possible the controller implementation on board the SoC can run motherboard PCIe without re-timer chips?

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull


mewse posted:

That's interesting. Is it possible the controller implementation on board the SoC can run motherboard PCIe without re-timer chips?

Yes. Inside the chips, the building blocks are something like this:

* PCIe root complex (RC) - This implements the PCI Express protocol. It has an internal bus interface on one side, and a parallel PCIe interface on the other. Usually the latter is a standard called PIPE (PHY Interface for PCI Express).

* DisplayPort controller - Outputs a parallel DisplayPort stream

* Thunderbolt controller - Accepts parallel PCIe and DisplayPort, and tunnels the packets as TB packets. Has some form of parallel PHY interface on the other side.

* SERDES / PHY - SERializer/DESerializer and PHYsical layer interface - Converts between parallel interfaces at a lower clock and serial interfaces at a higher clock, and contains the specialized mixed signal circuits needed to send and receive ultra high speed serial signals connected outside the chip

Doing motherboard style PCIe just means that instead of connecting the PCIE RC to a Thunderbolt controller, they'd connect it (or some of its ports, it can have multiple PHY interfaces) directly to a PCIE PHY.

E: We don't know for sure whether they support that path as an alternate operating mode in M1, though some recent regulatory filings about a M1 Mac Mini motherboard with 10G Ethernet suggests that maybe they do, since the obvious way to implement 10GE is with a PCI Express 10GE NIC. The other way they could implement it is to have the 10GE controller integrated into M1, but that seems a little dubious for a chip design which seems destined to go into a future iPad Pro model.

BobHoward fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Nov 23, 2020

Lazyhound
Mar 1, 2004

A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous—got me?

BobHoward posted:

The other way they could implement it is to have the 10GE controller integrated into M1, but that seems a little dubious for a chip design which seems destined to go into a future iPad Pro model.
From the Federighi interview I read, I wouldnít expect the M1 to migrate back to iPads, it sounds like theyíre moving to bespoke CPUs for each category based on modelling of anticipated workloads.

mewse
May 2, 2006




BobHoward posted:

Yes. Inside the chips, the building blocks are something like this:

* PCIe root complex (RC) - This implements the PCI Express protocol. It has an internal bus interface on one side, and a parallel PCIe interface on the other. Usually the latter is a standard called PIPE (PHY Interface for PCI Express).

* DisplayPort controller - Outputs a parallel DisplayPort stream

* Thunderbolt controller - Accepts parallel PCIe and DisplayPort, and tunnels the packets as TB packets. Has some form of parallel PHY interface on the other side.

* SERDES / PHY - SERializer/DESerializer and PHYsical layer interface - Converts between parallel interfaces at a lower clock and serial interfaces at a higher clock, and contains the specialized mixed signal circuits needed to send and receive ultra high speed serial signals connected outside the chip

Doing motherboard style PCIe just means that instead of connecting the PCIE RC to a Thunderbolt controller, they'd connect it (or some of its ports, it can have multiple PHY interfaces) directly to a PCIE PHY.

E: We don't know for sure whether they support that path as an alternate operating mode in M1, though some recent regulatory filings about a M1 Mac Mini motherboard with 10G Ethernet suggests that maybe they do, since the obvious way to implement 10GE is with a PCI Express 10GE NIC. The other way they could implement it is to have the 10GE controller integrated into M1, but that seems a little dubious for a chip design which seems destined to go into a future iPad Pro model.

Very cool. Wonder how solid their multiprocessing would be, if they could make a mac pro with multiple M1s and PCIe slots.

Looks like the current mac pro runs radeon cards, they'd have to convince AMD to build arm drivers or agree to have Apple port it

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull


Lazyhound posted:

From the Federighi interview I read, I wouldnít expect the M1 to migrate back to iPads, it sounds like theyíre moving to bespoke CPUs for each category based on modelling of anticipated workloads.

What he wasn't saying is that it's incredibly common to identify two or more niches that can be served by a single silicon design, at the cost of building a chip large enough to include the set of all features required by all the product niches. Then you disable some of the features in variants for each niche.

As an example, I've worked on a project where we sold the same silicon as two different products based on which package you put the die into - either wirebond or a flip-chip package. The FC package provided better power distribution, better heat dissipation, and more pins, so that version could run at higher clock speeds and supported all the I/O features. On the flip side, we were able to sell the worse version for less money since wirebond packages are considerably cheaper.

Going back to M1, by specs (core counts, etc) A14 (the iPhone 12 chip) has roughly the same relationship to M1 as A12 (iPhone XS chip) did to A12X/A12Z (iPad Pro chips). It's a pretty good guess that a future iPad Pro will be powered by an "A14X" which turns out to be the same silicon as M1, but with Mac-only features disabled, and power limitations similar to or worse than the M1 Air.

The reason you do this stuff is that each tapeout costs a poo poo ton of money and engineering resources, so if you can share tapeouts between two projects that's great. You have to balance that against how much of the silicon you're wasting in each product which uses it, the expected sales volume of each product (the more you sell the more sense it makes to do an individual tapeout, but then again if there's a very high volume product and a similar low volume product it may still make sense to have the low volume ride the coattails of the high), and other factors.

This is why I'm SWAGging about M1 Mac Minis with 10G ethernet probably using a PCIe 10GE NIC chip rather than having the NIC on die. A single lane of PCIe Gen 4 is all you need to support an external PCIe 10G NIC, at very low cost in die area. Which helps justify getting that feature into the silicon despite the fact that the Mac Mini is basically certain to be the lowest volume product of all the things M1 goes into.

Crunchy Black
Oct 24, 2017

CASTOR: Uh, it was all fine and you don't remember?
VINDMAN: No, it was bad and I do remember.





Very good and reasoned explanation of Appleís thought process here with physical packaging and regulatory constraints accounted for. Checks out.

Head Bee Guy
Jun 12, 2011

Retarded for Busting

Grimey Drawer

Just dropped a WD external drive and now it beeps and isnít recognized by disk utility. Iím hosed, arenít I?

~Coxy
Dec 9, 2003

R.I.P. Inter-OS Sass - b.2000AD d.2003AD

Head Bee Guy posted:

Just dropped a WD external drive and now it beeps and isnít recognized by disk utility. Iím hosed, arenít I?

Wrong thread but most likely the disk itself is fine and just the USB part is hosed.

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull


If itís a HDD and it was dropped itís far more likely that mechanical HDD parts broke than the little USB board on the back

Head Bee Guy
Jun 12, 2011

Retarded for Busting

Grimey Drawer

~Coxy posted:

Wrong thread but most likely the disk itself is fine and just the USB part is hosed.

I was wondering why my post didnít show up in the storage thread

LODGE NORTH
Jul 30, 2007



Is there both a best external hard drive and then best way of backing up macOS stuff? My problem seems to be that I only really need something that's directly in the middle of how everyone wants things. I'd want a backup that can be a barebones version of macOS - maybe even with just the default apps - that I can use to troubleshoot or fix problems I get on my main.

And then I'd want something separate that can just backup all of my necessary files (like Desktop, Downloads, a few other folders, stuff like that).

Right now, I use Carbon Copy Cloner to make an exact copy of my drive and then booting into it is (probably) just making sure I have an EFI I can boot into, which works fine, but it seems like. drastic action for something that I don't really require necessarily. I imagine, just from thinking about it, my best option would be just getting a small spare internal SSD, setting up its EFI, and then installing macOS to it and never touching it. Then finding some app or subscription that can backup specified folders to an external - but then that goes back to my first question: is there a best hard drive to get for stuff like backing up from macOS?

Head Bee Guy
Jun 12, 2011

Retarded for Busting

Grimey Drawer

It doesnít seem to be supported now, but anyone know if the 6800 series cards will
be supported in the future?

lignicolos
Dec 6, 2001



Head Bee Guy posted:

It doesnít seem to be supported now, but anyone know if the 6800 series cards will
be supported in the future?

I'm not sure if that's a question anyone non-apple can answer, but they sure seem to be all in on using Apple Silicon for both the CPU and GPU going forward. I wouldn't hold your breath.

Binary Badger
Oct 11, 2005

Trolling Link for a decade




There's already RDNA2 / AMD 6x00 support in Big Sur, and there's suspicions that there will be new Mac Pro 2019 MPX modules with AMD 6x00 cores.

But if you want 6x00 support in any older OS, you're likely waiting for Godot..

kefkafloyd
Jun 8, 2006

What really knocked me out
Was her cheap sunglasses

Head Bee Guy posted:

It doesnít seem to be supported now, but anyone know if the 6800 series cards will
be supported in the future?

Big Sur 11.1 already has the beginnings of Big Navi drivers, but they're in an early state (as in, not ready for prime time due to lack of HW acceleration). So I'm sure they'll be along in a few months.

kefkafloyd fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Dec 31, 2020

Clark Nova
Jul 17, 2004



I always chuckle when I see the phrase "Big Navi" and remember it isn't a deviantart thing

Head Bee Guy
Jun 12, 2011

Retarded for Busting

Grimey Drawer

If I used a non-compatible gpu for booting into a windows drive (say a gtx 3070)would it also be possible to use an i5 10600kís integrated graphics for a hackintosh? I donít think is be doing anything graphically intensive in macos anyway, there are just a few features in macworld i donít want to totally abandon yet.

I know id have to plug the monitor into the board instead of the gpu, but any other major stumbling blocks there?

oohhboy
Jun 8, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 13 days!


It should boot into VESA mode since 10.13

~Coxy
Dec 9, 2003

R.I.P. Inter-OS Sass - b.2000AD d.2003AD

No idea on the 10th gen Intel iGPU in particular, but it will work fine in theory.
If your monitor has multiple inputs you could even use that to switch.

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Colostomy Bag
Jan 11, 2016

C-Bangin' it



10th gen works fine. WG was a pain because at the time it was fairly new. Fortunately I was able to copy someone else's config for that part.

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