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TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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Hello Great King Keane! I am here to fight for you!

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TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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CCKeane posted:

Don't sweat it, give broad descriptions of your skills if you want, if you don't that's fine.

So to start things up, I have a once per game ability to bestow an item upon a player. This greatly expands their combat ability, but at the cost of changing their alignment to survivor.

But hey, funny story, survivor alignment isn't scum alignment.

If you are scum alignment and want to play as survivor, post and let me know and we can work something out. (Just vote along side me)

I'm town, but I'm also pretty good at combat, so you might want to consider giving me the item. I'd never think of pulling a heel turn on you.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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CCKeane posted:

I feel you, but town to survivor is a losing move for me, scum to survvior is a winning move.

I saw this after I posted, but my offer stands if no scum steps forward.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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Also, although I can be used in either line and have some nice attack skills, for the moment I must insist that I fight only to defend our Greek positions. I will, of course, let you know if this changes.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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I've only been scum twice, so people who've played against me those times will have to really say if I've got more, but my biggest thing when I'm scum is that I tend to ignore scumbuddies or just lightly engage with them. My two scum games were Ecco's Pearl of Port Lourde and Mithross' Planescape game.

In the Planescape game, I was scum with Keane and essentially completely ignored him in the thread all game. It finally got brought up late in the game but by then it was too late.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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EccoRaven posted:

it's not even being a rules lawyer, the rules have always explicitly allowed for man-made ciphers since that's functionally not different than breadcrumbing, which would be crazy to make illegal.

it's not different in any material sense than me typing:

"ziu"

and later sneaking in the number 3

and putting an invisible bold tag before R

and later claiming: "look at those letters on a standard qwerty keyboard! move THREE to the Right! I am a cop!"


it's just breadcrumbing. It's something people can and should do.

No, you'd be a v]p.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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TMMadman posted:

No, you'd be a v]p.

Actually, I was wrong, you'd be a v[p.

I counted from o instead of i.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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Can't post for 3768 days!


EccoRaven posted:

I think KB's evasion of the question and case against me is pretty bad. Still deciding if it's dumb or scum though.

I think Hiipfire is always a safe choice too.

~these opinions are subject to change without notice~

I was actually just looking at the case and I think you are both being kind of dumb. KB has a point when he says you were misreading his words, but pushing that as a case is also kind of weak. I think the other votes on you weaker than the KB vote though.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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CCKeane posted:

To be VERY explict, this doesn't mean I am right or that people should stop casing ecco, this means I'm not feeling it.

I am much better as scum than as town so being town IS FRIGHTENING AND CONFUSING.

I don't know, I think you were pretty good as town in Ecco's Pearl game. You really were on point with a lot of your scum calls early in the game but I think the ghost/no vote gimmick made people sort of pass over your opinions.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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Eccos is really focusing on this whole KB thing and it's making me uneasy. Let's go ahead and go over the whole thing. Ecco starts by asking Keane if everyone should post scum tells because she did that when she was King and it worked. Honestly, the post itself comes off as a little weird because even though Keane is the King of the thread he doesn't actually control the actions of the people in the thread. So if Ecco really wanted to start a discussion about scum tells, there is no reason to ask permission, just start it and if Keane doesn't like it, he can stomp his foot down to stop it. KB posts this response fairly quickly:

King Burgundy posted:

I don't know if I have any. I try to play my standard game regardless of alignment. But occasionally, if I'm on a scum team with someone with an important power or something, I won't go after them even if I normally would. For the most part I bus ruthlessly though and go after the same people I would if I were town.

Then there are a couple of glib responses from Opop and Hiip and then Ecco posts her own scum tells here:

EccoRaven posted:

cool cool.

unfortunately I have no scumtells, so :(

but a way you can find out if I am scum is if I solidly defended by scumbuddies all game, since I am very anti-bussing. I recently have begun to do slight, very light bussing to play with my meta, but I would never shoot my team in the foot so badly as to Actually Bus them, even if it'd be "sooo not my meta!!", because that'd be a good way to lose the game.

here is an example of a recent scum game. You can also tell I stayed back and didn't make as many cases as I normally would; though that's not a perfect tell since I often get in people's grills regardless of alignment, if I'm hanging back it's because I'm struggling to engage with the game, which happens way more often as scum than town.

here is a game exemplifying the hanging back-ness.

luckily in this game I am TOWN :sax:

Ecco then calls out Opop and Hiip for their glib responses and then FoxTerrier posts this:

FoxTerrier posted:

I've only scummed once, like two years ago, so I don't know that I can really claim an MO. For what it's worth, I was very assertive and active that game, but it was a deliberate attempt to match my Town style from the game I'd played just prior...so...I dunno what can really be gleamed there.

Opop modded the game I was scum, and has also played with me when I've been town (actually I guess I was a survivor with town aligned goals in that game, technically). He might have some insight if he remembers those games at all.

Otherwise I dunno really.

And Ecco immediately responds with this:

EccoRaven posted:

thank you for answering! you gave a good answer I approve of it (not the least of which because your first game afaik was FRACAS IN CARACAS).

I dislike KB not being able to give his own scumtells but I really dislike opop and hiip for totally dodging it!

KB takes exception and points out his response is almost the same as Fox's (and I agree), but Ecco hits back with:

EccoRaven posted:

lol you mean this answer

it's 3/4 "I have no scumtells, I am a perfect player" 1/4 "sometimes I don't bus as hard as I might"

it is a bad post.

And I just don't know how she gets to that conclusion because it seems forced and deliberately misleading. I felt KB was being honest with his original answer. I've played with KB when he was town and scum and he really does try to play the same way regardless of his alignment. I've called him scum when he's town and I've called him town when he's scum. I don't read his original answer as saying "I'm perfect a player", I read it as him saying "I try to stay consistent with my actions regardless of my alignment" and combined with Asiina making a very valid point that KBs cases are better when he's town, it just reads like Ecco is trying to push a bad case.

I'm actually a little more worried about Ecco's own answer about scum tells because it seems like a perfect way to throw people off her trail. She claims that when she is scum, she likes to hang back and doesn't really bus her scumbuddies, but she also says she has started to lightly bus her teammates to mess with her meta. So what I'm wondering is if her whole scum tells post was just a way to mess with her meta by saying she likes to hang back as scum and then coming out strong in order to prove that she is town.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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Can't post for 3768 days!


CCKeane posted:

I gotta choose my team.

Anybody have ideas? I'd like to hear from Diqnol in particular.

Is the fight for Greek positions or are you attacking Trojan holdings?

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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EccoRaven posted:

it's six people, right? you should do three of your Most Trusted in the back row, and two in the front row, with someone you are Most Distrusting on the front rank so they die.

I think FoxTerrier is a Good Guy. I don't have many other thoughts than that sorry, few have checked in and posted substance yet.

What the gently caress is this poo poo?

How in the hell do you call FoxTerrier a good guy when he has 5 whole posts in this thread? Especially when you turn around and say that you don't have thoughts on others because they haven't checked in and posted substance yet.

This post is loving pure garbage.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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TMMadman posted:

What the gently caress is this poo poo?

How in the hell do you call FoxTerrier a good guy when he has 5 whole posts in this thread? Especially when you turn around and say that you don't have thoughts on others because they haven't checked in and posted substance yet.

This post is loving pure garbage.

In fact, just for that post:

##vote Ecco

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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CCKeane posted:

I know you have opinions on locale, but I'm going to play that close to my chest atm, so please give both.

Additionally, everyone, if you are giving your ideas for the combat team, please talk about people other than yourself as well. I think HOT TAKES would do us well.

Fair enough, I have no issues fighting and would be a good addition to the combat team, but again I must insist that I only defend Greek positions for the moment.

As for others, you might want to consider Opop and Mithross as both have said they are good at combat, probably front line for both it looks like.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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EccoRaven posted:

I think FoxTerrier is town because I think the examination of conscience post was very townie. I have said this repeatedly.

Or it could just be that you're living up to your meta of defending a scum buddy.

Do you see the issue here?

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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Mithross posted:

I have a ranged debuff, acually. Then decent combat skill, and an any buff. I'm your friendly neighborhood red mage, I guess.

Gotcha, I figured you were front line material from this post:

Mithross posted:

I am pretty decent at combat, but keep me the hell away from the gods, they and I don't get along. I am also entirely about combat, skill wise.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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EccoRaven posted:

I think you're getting too bogged down in trying to figure out my meta.

So are you saying that you're deliberately playing against your meta?

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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EccoRaven posted:

no, I'm not deliberately doing anything regarding my meta. I don't play with my meta. I think players who rely on their meta either way are making bad decisions.

Every game I play I post my thoughts and respond to players and try to be as open and sincere as possible. Sometimes I struggle to get into a game and get in a groove (which, as I said, happens more often as scum than town), but this game clearly isn't one of them.

I think FoxTerrier is town because the scumtell post was really townie. Keane was asking for who people think is town, and I told him. I think if you want to view that as "potentially ecco defending a scumbuddy!" then you're being unreasonable.

How exactly am I being unreasonable when you've directly said that you defend your scumbuddies? Then you turn around and say someone is town based on what comes down to a single post, especially when you turn around and say you can't make calls on other people because they haven't posted substance. Seriously, you're going to call that unreasonable?

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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EccoRaven posted:

yeah, because you're so focused on my meta that you're trying to interpret everything I do within that lens. It's not helpful at all.

If you want to roll up your sleeves about it, though, my meta for defending a scumbuddy really is about defending them. I may mention them neutrally and casually here and there, but if someone makes a case against them, I deflate the case. I generally take the stance of "they could be scum but I'm not feeling it, and the cases are bad because <reasons>."

As scum I don't flippantly say a scumbuddy is town.

"But ecco you could be playing with your meta by doing exactly that!"

"AND NOW YOU'RE PLAYING WITH YOUR META BY TALKING ABOUT YOUR META AT ALL"


it's reductive and unhelpful.

But I'm not really focused on your meta. My main issue with you is that you keep pushing a BK case that I think is garbage. And when combined you calling someone town based from what amounts to a single post is just too much for me right now. It just feels suspicious and scummy. However, I will ##unvote for now though because it's double plurality and we should be looking at more than just one or two people, but I'd still be willing to vote for you.

EccoRaven posted:

hey TMM let's shift this conversation to something more productive for me.

how do you feel about merk?

I think merk is being above the board right now and I'm leaning town for him. I like his post about his scum tells here:

merk posted:

I wasn't thinking of you at all when I wrote it. It applies to many people.

Each time I am lynched as scum I go back and try to figure out why. I'll then make an effort in the next game to not do whatever it is that I thought got me lynched regardless of my alignment. Things I've taken out of my game include random distancing posts on scum buddies, voting with too short of justifications (unless I am baiting as town to try to spark content), quickly thought of joke comments, and other stuff. I don't know if I have a scum tell that prevails game after game. If I identified that tell, I'd try to remove it. If you know something, I'd love to hear it.

I'm surprised you didn't call him out for saying that he also plays a 'Perfect game' like KB because it has the same idea behind it. The reason I like this is because even though I've only been scum a couple times, I've kind of done the same thing but in reverse. For example, in my first scum game (your Pearl game) I was called out early in the game for prodding lurkers. And then in one of my next games (your Charnel game), I was town and I deliberately prodded lurkers early in the game in order to make lurker prodding a null tell for me. I really should have pushed BK harder in that game because he voted for me on pure meta reasons and I knew that my pushing lurkers would draw an easy scum vote.

Speaking of lurkers, I'd like to see some of them post more, specifically FoxTerrier because I'm not trusting your judgement on him yet. I noticed Verr has posted a bit while writing this post, but I'm not liking it so far because it lacks opinions or substance. Plus, we are way past joke phase at this point, so this post is pretty suspect:

Verr posted:

well its day 1 and i lack the jokepost analytic ability of the rest of you guys

i say we look at who volunteers/who wants to fight. scum is going to have a plan to burn through our armies so ccbeane gets attacked right?

But the skin of the brave soldier never blanches.
He's all control. Tense but no great fear.
The moment he joins his comrades packed in ambush
he prays to wade in carnage, cut-and-thrust at once.


Especially when combined with the fact that he volunteered to fight a few posts earlier.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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Hey, that's a pretty good post by Fox, I like it.

Also, to add to my post above, even though I'm leaning town for merk and I'm suspicious of Ecco right now, I still think merks reason for voting Ecco is a bit weak because Ecco did create content and it has lead places, just maybe not the places Ecco intended.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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Verr posted:

here's what people have said about fighting:

TMMadman: "no issue fighting" "good addition" wants to fight in defensive emplacement "pretty good at combat"
Mithross: "raged debuff" "decent at combat"
King Burgandy: "Useful outside of combat" "ranged" if we have to send him in
CCKeane: "can give item to turn scum into survivor"
"Guissuipadsiuop puidfdsaf: your name sucks "good at beating people up"
Merk: "melee dude"
the Nabster: "brutal debuffs" asked to be backline
Capitalist Pig: "useful at combat, but not frontline fighter"
Opoponax: "decent debuffs" "probably better in combat that out"
Asiina: "not greatest at combat" "i'll go if I have to"
Fox Terrier: "party dude"

and I'm a backline buffer guy.

alright, so I figure excepting one or two scum who have in-combat abilities, most of them will want to stay out of the battle. so folks are putting up a token effort but are avoiding fights. if this reads then King Burgandy and Asiina are my two picks.

i'll ##vote Asiina for now to help avoid "hammering" or whatever. lemme know if i missed anyone's combat chat.

everyone else who hasn't talked about your abilities, SPEAK UP

Verr posted:

i guess we do have enough to fill the roster there

how's this look?

frontline: merk/pizza man/???
backline: Mithross/the Nabster/Capitalist pig OR me

We need another stabby dude to volunteer

I'm don't really like either of these posts. The first one seems a little rolefishy, plus I think the reasoning behind voting Asiina is suspect. Why couldn't there be town roles that need to stay out of battle? You aren't saying Asiina is scum because of her posting, you are saying she is scum based on role speculation and that's just garbage this early in the day. The second post just feels skeevy to me and seems like a set up to get scum or two into the fight.

I'm going to go ahead and ##vote Verr for this garbage.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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GUISSEPPE PIZZAPIE posted:

Ecco I'm not interested in conversing with scum ~_~

Ugh, this is garbage because you have no idea if she is actually scum unless you are her scumbuddy.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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And imgay just posted Verrs list in the other thread.

TMMadman
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FoxTerrier posted:

Out of curiosity can anyone that knows metas confirm whether or not this is true?

I don't know about Little Mac, but Hiip is pretty well known for lurking/disappearing, especially when he is scum.

TMMadman
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GUISSEPPE PIZZAPIE posted:

Because scum want to know, merk.

Does that mean you think both Ecco and merk are scum?

What if I ask for your read on merk?

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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Also, just as an aside:

busb, it would be nice if you could turn the second post of this thread into a proper linked list of players.

TMMadman
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GUISSEPPE PIZZAPIE posted:

I won't be disclosing.

You won't ever give anyone any opinion on merk.

Is that what you're saying?

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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busb posted:

What's wrong with how i've done it??? (i'm being facetious i only just saw this post and had already done it~)

Thank you. :)

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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EccoRaven posted:

there's no way a scum player would use all those words on me when I'm in the lead and the only vote on him is me and my case is universally panned.

KB I still think the tone between your post and FT's were very different but I don't think it matters now.

##unvote

someone help me decide between merk and diqnol

I would think Diqnol. I really don't like his responses to your pressure and his refusal to give an opinion on merk while saying that merk shouldn't be in the fight.

It reads weird.

TMMadman
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EccoRaven posted:

you should unvote verr though TMM, him focusing so much on battle stuff leans town. If he were scum he'd just post the info in his scumdoc and not be so up front with it.

I don't know, if I was scum, posting about battle stuff seems like a pretty easy out because it's not actually making judgement calls on people while still looking like you want to help.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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I do have to say it is concerning that Ecco has gotten so many votes so quickly. Not to mention she almost has more posts than the next three people combined.

It takes a lot of energy and effort to post that much when you are scum, so even though I'm still somewhat suspicious of Ecco, I think it'd probably be a mistake to hang her today.

TMMadman
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King Burgundy posted:

Who are you campaigning for instead?

Right now I don't like Verr. He's posted a bit, but almost all of it revolved around the combat stuff. He hasn't really made any calls, except to say that he concerned about you and Asiina because both of you aren't itching to go into combat.

Here is the things he's said about combat:

Verr posted:

im a ranged buffin dude, send me in coach

So we know he wants to be a back line guy. Then a few posts later:

Verr posted:

well its day 1 and i lack the jokepost analytic ability of the rest of you guys

i say we look at who volunteers/who wants to fight. scum is going to have a plan to burn through our armies so ccbeane gets attacked right?

But the skin of the brave soldier never blanches.
He's all control. Tense but no great fear.
The moment he joins his comrades packed in ambush
he prays to wade in carnage, cut-and-thrust at once.


So he wants to look at the people who are volunteering to fight, which now includes him. The he does his list post (I'm clipping the list) here:

Verr posted:

and I'm a backline buffer guy.

alright, so I figure excepting one or two scum who have in-combat abilities, most of them will want to stay out of the battle. so folks are putting up a token effort but are avoiding fights. if this reads then King Burgandy and Asiina are my two picks.

i'll ##vote Asiina for now to help avoid "hammering" or whatever. lemme know if i missed anyone's combat chat.

everyone else who hasn't talked about your abilities, SPEAK UP

We started with 17 players, so I'm guessing there's probably only 4 scum which makes his scum speculation weird in my opinion. I don't see why there wouldn't be town roles that are weak in combat, so just picking based on who doesn't want to fight feels really weak to me. Then he even follows it up with an actual lineup:

Verr posted:

i guess we do have enough to fill the roster there

how's this look?

frontline: merk/pizza man/???
backline: Mithross/the Nabster/Capitalist pig OR me

We need another stabby dude to volunteer

None if it really sits right with me. He isn't making cases based on content, he's just basing his vote on people who don't want to get put into combat. Sure, I guess you could use that as a guideline, but he also admits that there are going to be scum that do want to join in combat and he's just flat out ignoring them.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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This is why I generally don't worry about Rarity being a lurker. Sure sometimes she gets busy, but she always does a lot of flurry posting.

It sometimes has a whiplash type effect because the way she reads/posts and sometimes it irritates me (ljtrigirl does the same sort of thing) due to the effect, but it's not indicative of alignment.

Also happy 30th Rarity, one thing old people don't tell young people is that your 30s will be better than your 20s. :sun:

TMMadman
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Rarity posted:

Can you explain how KB's plan of 'playing the same way as scum as when town' is any different to what everybody does? All KB's doing is saying 'yeah I try to play mafia'

I just read KBs post in the same tone as Fox. To me, he's not saying that he doesn't have scum tells, he's just saying that he does his best to try and play the same game regardless of his alignment so other people are better judges of his scum tells. He goes on to say that he usually won't bus a scumbuddy with a powerful role but that he does bus his teammates.

I think it's a pretty fair assessment of his game as I have played games with him when he's been town and scum. Overall, I think KB is a pretty good player on both sides.

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CCKeane posted:

The deed is done! Where you are you are.

Just FYI, I think busb was premature in asking for the battle assignments. It's something PDumb also pointed out in his stupid thread:

busb posted:

RULE: Deadlines & Battle Times
Hangings will be resolved and flipped at the same time for both threads, so there is no penalty for reaching a consensus early. Battle orders and battlefield location are due from the thread Kings 1 hour before the deadline time. Battle resolution will occur approx 24 hours after that. The attacking king chooses the battleground.

The bold part means you could probably argue for a change in the lineup.

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
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Little Mac posted:

Keane I would take ecco out of battle. She is likely to be killed today. Just reading over her posts her tone seems insincere. For someone who was arguing just a few days ago that a good townie fights to never be lynched she seems to have "resigned" herself to her fate quite easily. That's not to say she's not fighting for herself, but it's what I read in her tone.

I will reread and see who else stands out to me but unless Keane can't change the battle order I would be fine voting ecco.

As an aside, I also excel at melee.

I disagree about Ecco's sincerity. While I disagree with some of her arguments, they don't feel forced or anything. I also think her frustration at being voted so heavily so early is quite genuine. She's definitely being truthful about waiting patiently for the game to start and was going to start her own soldiers game if this one didn't get going.

I believe she has also publicly said elsewhere that she doesn't particularly enjoy being scum, so I'm not sure she'd fight this hard to try and stay in the game if she was scum, especially with it being a double plurality vote.

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CCKeane posted:

Alright I can change it up, who's good to go I'm asking again because I am very lazy.

I can go, but again, it can only be in defense of Greek positions. I can not attack Trojan holdings yet.

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Rarity posted:

Ok, this is way less good from Verr. He's essentially saying that he'll lynch anyone and doesn't really care who.

I'm still pretty happy with my Verr vote. He hasn't once tried to make a read based on the opinions people have posted and instead he's just focused on who doesn't want to go into combat.

TMMadman
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CCKeane posted:

I need a ranged fighter.

Reminder. I can go in either line and I'm pretty good at combat.

GUISSEPPE PIZZAPIE posted:

Okay, well actually, this guy is probably your best front liner down the line but right now he's raging at u mane whereas I'm just kinda good all the time

I doubt I'm the best but I'm pretty good and very versatile with the exception that I must be defensive for now.

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TMMadman
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Rarity posted:

It's a difficult balancing mafia with a real social life :sigh:

Yeah like a lady needs a social life, especially after she turns 30. :v:

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