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King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



This thread is totally the cool thread.

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King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



I can be useful outside of combat. But if you need to send me in, I'm ranged.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



EccoRaven posted:

hey! keane! I propose we all post what our scumtells are. it worked pretty well when I was king of a thread. do you approve??!

anyone who lies about their scumtells is scum obviously!

I don't know if I have any. I try to play my standard game regardless of alignment. But occasionally, if I'm on a scum team with someone with an important power or something, I won't go after them even if I normally would. For the most part I bus ruthlessly though and go after the same people I would if I were town.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



Asiina posted:

My scumtell is posting a lot of big elaborate cases and also lots of shitposting. If I'm posting a lot I'm scum.

hahahahahahahhahahaha

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



BTW, our thread is beating PMOMs thread 45 posts to 9. Proof of our superiority.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



Asiina posted:

Your scumtell is agreeing with me.

I thought we proved that wasn't the case over those last couple of games?

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



Asiina posted:

Real talk, KB your scumtell is that your scum cases aren't as good as your town cases. They don't feel as logically consistent, and are always quite a bit weaker and require more stretching to fit.

Also you do tend to buddy up when you're scum.

Interesting. I'll have to take your word for it.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



TheNabster posted:

My last forum mafia experience was me being a cop, and then winning by doing pretty much nothing whilst the scum killed themselves and/or got hung.

I intend for a repeat performance.

My last was being vanilla town and getting killed N1.

It isn't that uncommon for me.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



EccoRaven posted:

thank you for answering! you gave a good answer I approve of it (not the least of which because your first game afaik was FRACAS IN CARACAS).


I dislike KB not being able to give his own scumtells but I really dislike opop and hiip for totally dodging it!

My answer was almost exactly the same as the one you just approved of. And as a result of my conversation with Asiina, there is tons of info out there now.

Your opinion about me rings false.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



CCKeane posted:

Again, I want my offer out there: If a scum wants to change alignment and hang in the thread I am giving them an opportunity to do so.

If I was scum, I would take you up on this offer in a heartbeat. :) I'm not though.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



Asiina posted:

You can know I'm not scum because I would take this offer in a heartbeat.

rofl. I totally hadn't read this post yet when I made mine.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



EccoRaven posted:

lol you mean this answer


it's 3/4 "I have no scumtells, I am a perfect player" 1/4 "sometimes I don't bus as hard as I might"

it is a bad post.

It's exactly the same as the one you approve of. Really, try to point out the type of information he shared that I didn't. We both said we try to play the same game regardless of alignment. We both identified something we do that may be outside of that. We both said we don't know of any, really.

And then after that, me and asiina tackled some other stuff which sheds further light.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



Am I the only one that sees Ecco praising someone for essentially the same post? I mean, his had more words than mine, but the gist was the same, no?

Or am I crazy?

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



EccoRaven posted:

it isn't at all the same thing. FoxTerrier said some of the same words but the way she said it indicated she was thinking about it clearly and was trying to be forthright.

you said it flippantly, like you didn't actually want people to know your scumtells, you just wanted to give a bogus answer to fill the void.

tsk tsk kb tsk tsk


lol u bad sorry friend

Wow. Nope. You are reading me intentionally uncharitably. I'm pretty sure you are scum.

##vote EccoRaven

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



EccoRaven posted:

what you said:

"I have no scumtells. I play a perfect game. Though, sometimes I don't bus a scumbuddy if I normally would."

what foxterrier said:

"I've only scummed once, like two years ago, so I don't know that I can really claim an MO. For what it's worth, I was very assertive and active that game, but it was a deliberate attempt to match my Town style from the game I'd played just prior...so...I dunno what can really be gleamed there.

Opop modded the game I was scum, and has also played with me when I've been town (actually I guess I was a survivor with town aligned goals in that game, technically). He might have some insight if he remembers those games at all.

Otherwise I dunno really."


it's like night and day. you don't even have the same scumtells so it's not like you phrased the same thing in different ways.

rofl. You couldn't be more transparent in your attempts to misread my words and intention. Sorry you rolled scum. I know you like Keane and wouldn't have chosen this for yourself.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



King Burgundy posted:

rofl. You couldn't be more transparent in your attempts to misread my words and intention. Sorry you rolled scum. I know you like Keane and wouldn't have chosen this for yourself.

Like seriously folks, check out what I actually wrote and then what Ecco translated it as:

King Burgundy posted:

I don't know if I have any. I try to play my standard game regardless of alignment.
vs

EccoRaven posted:

"I have no scumtells. I play a perfect game.

So bad.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



I'm glad people now agree with me that Ecco is scum.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



EccoRaven posted:

nobody disagreed with you? also I'm pretty sure merk's vote is a grumpyvote over my cipher while Diqnol's is still kinda nonsense, so, I wouldn't be too pleased with yourself.

That was tongue in cheek. No one has commented on my opinions, people are voting for weird looking reasons.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



EccoRaven posted:

"I play perfectly" was a little glib but that's what he was saying. "My scum play is identical to my town play" means "I play perfectly and never make mistakes as scum."

Regardless even if I had characterized his post totally neutrally my point would still have been valid: he bypassed the question with a non-answer. It seems to me either he's totally oblivious to how he plays (unlikely) or he deliberately obfuscated it because he doesn't want to out his scumtells in a game where he's scum.

vOv

I don't believe you to be stupid. So your continued insistence on this nonsense is only further confirming for me that you are scum.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



EccoRaven posted:

Assume I am stupid. Explain to me how what you said was "almost exactly the same" was what FoxTerrier said.

I tried here:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3747218&pagenumber=3&perpage=40#post451567576


show me how I am wrong and I will concede that I am genuinely dumb.

I don't see what the point is. You keep deliberately misreading everything everyone writes. I pointed out the most obvious BS that you used and you explained it away as if it still makes sense. It doesn't.

EccoRaven posted:

that's a little unreasonable. I made a general content question, some people answered it, some didn't. The ones who did, some answered well, some didn't. I went after one of them who didn't answer it well.

I think this is a pretty silly vote merk. I know votes aren't limited resources or anything but I think "your cipher was dumb" would be a better vote than "you asked for content and it didn't help!"

If you mean to imply here that you went after me, that is not the case at all. I went after you when you did a really weird sideways shade throw at me. You've fought with me on it since, but you did not go after me in any significant way.

EccoRaven posted:

KB voted for me because he didn't like how I "mischaracterized" his summary of his scumplay. the mischaracterization was over the word "perfect." I explained my thoughts earlier but here it is again: KB was talking with sincerity how he has no scumtells except something he occasionally does that's not particularly damning or revealing. I said that was a dumb answer, and phrased it as "I play perfectly" because that was essentially what he was saying.

Wow, you are still doing it. You minimize anything I say and pretend other things are happening with every one of your posts. It was NOT just your use of the word perfect. I did NOT say I have no scumtells. I said I didn't know of any. Do you not understand how those are two different things? I'm pretty sure you DO understand that, and this is just your scum strategy. I then proceeded to mention the one thing I know I occasionally do differently as scum. None of the words you are ascribing to me are words I am saying. Here, let me show you what it looks like when someone says they have no scum tells:

EccoRaven posted:

unfortunately I have no scumtells, so :(

Notice the difference?

EccoRaven posted:

Despite that I still noticed something off about KB's answer and pursued him for it.

Again. No, you didn't. Not until I hounded you over your sideways shade throwing. Here, let me remind you what you posted:

EccoRaven posted:

thank you for answering! you gave a good answer I approve of it (not the least of which because your first game afaik was FRACAS IN CARACAS).


I dislike KB not being able to give his own scumtells but I really dislike opop and hiip for totally dodging it!

If you were "pursuing" anyone here it certainly wasn't me. So this is yet another example of you trying to shift the narrative away from what actually happened.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



EccoRaven posted:

I know I'm getting a lot of heat right now but hear me out!

King Burgundy is probably scum this game.

1) When asked about his scumtells, he gave a flippant non-answer. Scum would be inclined to not want to reveal their "cards" as it were so early in day 1.

No, I didn't. This is an example of your twisting things to meet your scum ends. Your refusal to be able to read my very simple words with the real tone and meaning behind them is telling. This is ridiculous for other reasons too. I frequently put all my cards on the table as scum, because I would as town. I tell people what kills I would make if I were scum, etc. This is not new. There is NO scenario where I would actually be flippant about the answering of that question. I was sincere and honest.

EccoRaven posted:

2) He straight up speaks untrue things about his post here. He manufactures a "contradiction" in my posting. It reads less like he genuinely is trying to defend his post and more like he's trying to step away from having said something a little scummy.

(I urge people to read FoxTerrier's post and KB's post side-by-side since this is what started it all. Read them not just for content but also tone. FT's comes off as a sincere examination of her posting after a years-long break, while KB's is a flippant dismissal of the question entirely without looking like he's totally ignoring it.)

This is also completely false. There is nothing untrue about what I posted. You are the ONLY person who has said my posts and Fox's weren't similar. Several people have sided with me on this. Nothing I said was scummy. I will not step away from it and I was not stepping away from it. I stand behind it 100%. I'm town. Everything I've said is towny. :) Yet another example of your deliberate misreading of simple text.

EccoRaven posted:

It reads like KB made a dumb post and when he saw the slightest pushback from it he went into defense-mode, hastily attacking me for whatever fault he can think of. It's scummy because I feel like town would have not been as defensive to such minor shade, but it lets him latch on to a bad case early on, letting him look like he's being a Contributing Townie when in reality his points are very hollow.

Nope. We don't play a lot of games together, but we've played at least a few. You should know by now that I won't let any comment about myself pass. Regardless of alignment. This is more false narrative with your host, Ecco.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



EccoRaven posted:

and KB on the chance you're town and care about convincing me as such, you should address my main concerns:

- how could you reasonably believe your post and FT's were "essentially the same"? It's not just a matter of content (though your content is different too), but of tone.


My tone and Fox's were also the same. You are the only one reading a weird tone into my posts. Is there some other bias going on here that is causing you to read my posts with a deliberately negative tone? Here are other people that believe as I do that me and Fox's posts were essentially the same:

TMMadman posted:

KB takes exception and points out his response is almost the same as Fox's (and I agree), but Ecco hits back with:

FoxTerrier posted:

óNot sure why Ecco is voting what appears to me the least scummy of the people she's objected to. I really don't think there's that much of a difference between my and KB's posts, and if that's the bulk of what the case against KB is based on I don't think it's a solid one.

Notice the two author's of the posts in question are in agreement of the meaning behind them. 3 vs 1 here Ecco. Are you ready to finally admit you are wrong?

EccoRaven posted:

- Your thought process around this whole thing hasn't felt very "genuine," either. The posts were different, I approved of one and disapproved of yours, and you got super defensive about it. It feels like you were doubling down on a bad point rather than being critical of your post (it was a bad post!) or organically figuring out if I was scum or not. It felt like a preemptive OMGUS, like you thought I was calling you scum for it, and you had to get the "no, YOU'RE scum for saying so!" in. But it happened to abruptly and so suddenly. Please tell me your thought process behind your vote and the subsequent casing.

My thought process:
"What on earth is she talking about? She just praised a post that was exactly the same as mine. Am I going crazy? I better reread the posts in question. Nope, she's really doing this. Oh, I see. She's mentioned me in passing with negative connotations so that she can revisit this later as part of a scum strategy. Yeah, that's probably it. Time to question her about it."

EccoRaven posted:

Also, explain this post:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?goto=post&postid=451581888

because I was the only one getting voted at the time and in this post it sure looks like you're saying "ecco is getting voted for weird reasons" but in the post just before you were all like "yeah! people voting ecco! woo!". The explanation you gave in the second post doesn't seem like it comes logically from the first.

It's all there. Are you pretending to not know what tongue-in-cheek means? I did edit myself before posting that. The second sentence I almost posted was along the lines of "if only people were agreeing for the right reasons". But I decided I didn't need that second bit because whatever, if I get scum cuddled it's all good. But I was being deliberately sarcastic because everyone was refusing to engage with our conversation/opinions and it was frustrating. I'd love to hear your magic tale for how I was actually saying "yeah! people voting ecco! woo!" This is the thing I am talking about every time I mention your deliberate twisting of words. I'm capable of emoting. I use emotes. I use exclamation points. I did none of that in the post in question. So where on earth do you get your interpretation?

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



Verr posted:

that's fair, but i'm definitely making that vote based on posting. and rolefishy is definitely what i was going for. we need to know who to send into the fight. right?

Asiina posted that they'd rather not fight, and in light of the others volunteering that puts them in a great place to be scum. same with KB.

I didn't post I'd rather not fight. This is what I said:

King Burgundy posted:

I can be useful outside of combat. But if you need to send me in, I'm ranged.

I'm fine with whatever. But for the record, even if I wasn't, I'm not sure how much that says. In the previous soldiers game I was in I was scum and we had some amazing abilities to sabotage combat so it was a wash on which was preferable as scum.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



I'd love to hear more from others that haven't commented on myself or Ecco. Or, anyone else for that matter. The folks that haven't even beat Busb's post count need especially to say some stuff:

busb 7
CapitalistPig 3
votefinder 2
Beetphyxious 2
Mithross 2
Rarity 1

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



FoxTerrier posted:

3) King Burgundy Do you have any scum picks besides Ecco? How about town picks?

I don't have any strong scum feelings on anyone else currently. But I'm very comfortable voting out any of the lurkers as my second choice. There is always at least one scum there.

I generally have a few people I feel comfortable are town by now, but this game has been a bit weird and I'm not really seeing enough from anyone to lean that way yet.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



Beetphyxious posted:

would we be better of voting a lurker for the second lynch or sending them off to fight?

I think voting one of them out would be good.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



EccoRaven posted:

hey KB is there anything I can say or do to help let you realize I was mistaken about you, but that it didn't make me scum?

if there isn't that's totally okay, your vote is the only legitimate one on me right now and I'd understand if you view this post as "ecco trying to weasel me out of the vote"

Sure, maybe. I can't say what it would be, but I'm always flexible to new information. Maybe you'll make an amazing case and it will change my feelings. Maybe you'll make a before hammer claim that I believe enough to let you make it to at least another day.

Actually, I just thought of one thing that would help. If you can find games of yours where you've done this same weird reinterpretation of people's posts thing as town, I'm willing to read any exchanges from those that you point out and see if this is just your thing. I don't recall you doing anything like this in the games I vaguely remember you being town in like The Wire though.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



TMMadman posted:

I do have to say it is concerning that Ecco has gotten so many votes so quickly. Not to mention she almost has more posts than the next three people combined.

It takes a lot of energy and effort to post that much when you are scum, so even though I'm still somewhat suspicious of Ecco, I think it'd probably be a mistake to hang her today.

Who are you campaigning for instead?

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



EccoRaven posted:

to expand on my thoughts KB, while I still disagree that your post and FT's were similar, my main feeling was you reacted very, very defensively to my minor callout, and your thought process around it read way disingenuous - like you were trying to cover up a bad post with a lot of words and accusations. but now I see that you actually do write massive posts in your defense even from someone as impotent and about to die as me, which means my feeling about you was almost certainly wrong.

I hope you at least see where I was coming from, since it's the truth.

That makes some sense. But I'm still baffled that you don't see the similarities. Like you really can't see me making that post with the same mindset as Fox? Others can, so in this instance at least, you have to at least consider that your analysis of the initial post was wrong. :shrug:

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



merk posted:

This is really bad. Don't let him provide his own meta defense. If you want to make a read, find it yourself.

I get where you are coming from on this, but I think she's scum. I've already put quite a lot of effort into combing this thread and responding to things to make my responses. I really don't feel the need to disprove my own theory by hunting through large volumes of other game posts. :) If it was for my own case against her, sure, I'd do it. But since it's not I've got better things to do.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



Rarity posted:

This is unusually aggressive from KB. I think the only other times I've seen him like this are when I was purposefully winding him up and I don't see Ecco's comments as inspiring that same level of vindictiveness..

Amusingly, I did think to myself that the way Ecco was playing was reminiscent of your scum game. It's the same thing I've seen you do as scum several times.

It does not surprise me to have you come into the thread and defend it.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



Rarity posted:

Extra thought, he's also reached the same level right at the start of D1 rather than in the few days it's taken me to piss him off. I'm just not seeing the emotion in that post as genuine at all.

BTW my own extra thought on this is that my interactions with you have trained me to be vigilant for this kind of scum play. But fwiw you are attributing a level of emotion to my posts that isn't there. I am aggressively hunting scum but I haven't gotten emotional or flown off the handle. :shrug:

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



CCKeane posted:

In my defense, I was very drunk.

If you've already submitted them you didn't have to. Maybe rethink and submit someone else while you are sober?

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



FoxTerrier posted:

KB I went through your posts, and—unless I really missed something, apologies if I did— you fail to make any kind of call or read about anyone except Ecco. You may be tunneling without realizing it.

So even if you don't have any strong feelings about scum or town, it would be great if you posted a few insights anyway so we have more material to work with. I would love to see your thoughts personally, especially since you seem to know metas and I don't.

How about on merk, GP, myself, Rarity, CPig, Bowmore, Asiina, and TheNabster? Or anyone else you like! :sparkles:

No that's accurate. OK dont hold me to these but here are two still unformed takes on people.

If I'm right on Ecco then Rarity would be town. No way would scum Rarity come into the thread and defend her scum buddy at the eleventh hour like this.

On Asiina, normally I'm able to slot her as town or scum by this point in the game. She started strong and seemingly like her town self but then petered out and became kind of disconnected which I associate with her as scum. I was waiting to see if that was just a weekend thing but was currently leaning very slightly scum on her.

The others I've got nothing useful on yet.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



Rarity posted:

I think KB is using his case on Ecco to avoid having to put down reads on any other players. He hasn't made a single alignment call on anyone in this game except Ecco and it's simple for scum to push a lurker lynch to get rid of a towny without having to take any blame for it.

Nope, I just didn't have any other strong opinions. It's really hard to form opinions on people who aren't posting, for example.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



Rarity posted:

I don't see how Ecco's game reflects the way I've treated you when I've been scum. What you're talking about is willful ignorance and misrepresentation of your posts but I think Ecco's take on it was genuine because as I've already stated, that was my take on it as well so you can't just argue that 'oh it must be ignorance cause nobody agrees with her'

My read of Ecco's take of me was exactly that. Willful ignorance and misrepresentation of my posts. I argued that based on reality vs her interpretation. I only used others opinions to further reinforce that I wasn't being a crazy person and other people were seeing the same thing.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



Rarity posted:

Keane, I know you've been actively quiet on scum hunting on purpose but I think we're reaching the point in the day where it would be beneficial for you to share your thoughts.

Anyway, I'm now all caught up on the thread. I think I've already made where I stand pretty clear but just to properly state my main position I think KB pushed back too hard on Ecco's suspicion of him as a way of discrediting that suspicion and since then he has been happy to ride that vote while ignoring all the other content in the thread. His only other reads have been a town read on me which is based only on logic while ignoring the tone of my content and a very hedgey read on Asiina. Not only do I find those to be two weak reads he's also looking at the two players in this thread he knows best which makes it easy to fake reads on them.

##vote KB

:shrug: You are wrong. You should look for the real scum.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



TMMadman posted:

Since it's a double plurality, I think we should dunk one lurker and then probably someone from the ecco/diqnol/merk/KB scuffle. I'm not really sure which one though because all them have been kind of scummy, so I'd rather put my vote somewhere else.


This seems unusual. When did you suddenly decide I looked scummy instead of agreeing with me? Can you point out when/where and your thought process?

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



EccoRaven posted:

hey KB as far as we know right now Keane has still selected me to be in the battle today. If Keane comes in and says he removed me, well obviously your vote should stay that's just sensible, but if Keane says I am indeed in the battle, would you unvote me? If you did, who would you vote instead?

Might I suggest Diqnol or merk?

If Keane really locks you in to go, I obviously won't vote you. I might shift to Asiina at that point. Or maybe a lurker like Little Mac.

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King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!



merk posted:

Every vote on Ecco by a town player has at least a base of my case ingrained in their read. It's an irrelevant question though. The fact that Ecco feels the need to respond immediately every time I bring up that I'm getting him lynched is the telling point here.

I mean, you can say that YOUR case has a grain of mine in it if you want. But not the other way around. ;)

I thought your initial vote was weird and your refusal to engage on my/Ecco's back and forth directly, but I've come around and can see we are going after similar things.

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