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savinhill
Mar 28, 2010


life is killing me posted:

Thanks. We've been here all weekend.

Seems I AM wrong. Sort of at least. Almost halfway in and really, Alfred isn't king yet. That said, I was probably thrown off because in the books, by the time Uhtred is older, Alfred is king.

And the fight with Ubbe seemed sort of contrived but overall it was good...Uhtred was supposed to have killed Ubbe in the battle not before it, and I think the only way Uhtred really wins the fight in the book is because Ubbe slips in some mud. To Uhtred's credit, he at least admits this more than once.

I think Uthred mentions, and brags about, how he is the killer of Ubbe at least half a dozen times a book, including the latest ones eight or so volumes later, when I couldn't even remember Ubbe very well anymore. It made this episode even better too, as it gave him very good reason to have a complex about harping up his own achievements, especially concerning Ubbe, every chance he gets. I remember you saying you were hoping they stayed faithful to the Ubbe battle from the books, did you specifically have the mud slip in mind, or just the whole big battle in general? I don't remember the details much anymore, except that I think it happened next to a river like on the show, and that Uthred killed Ub himself of course(I think Uthred got like the highest body count of any main character I've read, good to see the show staying true to the character this episode with one of his dick move civilian rage kills).

Another great thing this episode was the Aethelwolfe grovelling titty speech, so glad to see he and Uthred start bonding, I remember their interactions being one of my favorite things from the earlier books.

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CeeJee
Dec 4, 2001


Oven Wrangler

silly posted:

The pommel stone is unique to the show, it's not in the books. It was a symbol of the ruler of Bebbanburg that he took with him. Uhtred's swords and their origins are different in the books.

As a visually distinct thing it works pretty well, in all the gray and brown scenery it's always catching the light perfectly to identify Uhtred.

Wallet
Jun 19, 2006



savinhill posted:

I don't remember the details much anymore, except that I think it happened next to a river like on the show, and that Uthred killed Ub himself of course(I think Uthred got like the highest body count of any main character I've read, good to see the show staying true to the character this episode with one of his dick move civilian rage kills).

It's sort of a simplified version of what happens in the books. Uthred sets fire to the ships on his own, but he brings 100 (or something like that) men with him who form a shield wall after the ships are alight to keep the danes busy while Otto comes from behind. He kills Ubba during the battle.

life is killing me
Oct 28, 2007



savinhill posted:

I think Uthred mentions, and brags about, how he is the killer of Ubbe at least half a dozen times a book, including the latest ones eight or so volumes later, when I couldn't even remember Ubbe very well anymore. It made this episode even better too, as it gave him very good reason to have a complex about harping up his own achievements, especially concerning Ubbe, every chance he gets. I remember you saying you were hoping they stayed faithful to the Ubbe battle from the books, did you specifically have the mud slip in mind, or just the whole big battle in general? I don't remember the details much anymore, except that I think it happened next to a river like on the show, and that Uthred killed Ub himself of course(I think Uthred got like the highest body count of any main character I've read, good to see the show staying true to the character this episode with one of his dick move civilian rage kills).

Another great thing this episode was the Aethelwolfe grovelling titty speech, so glad to see he and Uthred start bonding, I remember their interactions being one of my favorite things from the earlier books.


Wallet posted:

It's sort of a simplified version of what happens in the books. Uthred sets fire to the ships on his own, but he brings 100 (or something like that) men with him who form a shield wall after the ships are alight to keep the danes busy while Otto comes from behind. He kills Ubba during the battle.

Yes, he killed Ubbe during the battle and not beforehand...in the books, Ubbe didn't challenge him to single combat when Uhtred tried to slip away--it was during the battle that either a shield wall broke or Uhtred left the shield wall to seek out Ubbe. And yes, Uhtred does brag about it a lot in the books to keep a reputation going (in the books, at least, he is a pretty accomplished and fearsome warrior, but once or twice he mentions, or admits rather, that in his earlier days he was young and dumb and knows he wouldn't have been able to take Ubbe and might have died had it not been for Ubbe slipping in some blood or mud). But that's the thing about writing in first person--I think it leaves flexibility for adaptations like this show. Whereas in third person we might get one character's view of it from far away and might be expected to assume the character's viewpoint is truthful, in first person what we really get is not only the firsthand account of events, but also Uhtred's personal spin on things. He can admit where he might have died, but we also know very little of any other character's view on Uhtred and his reputation. To another character, he might just be a decent fighter who gets lucky constantly. To Uhtred, overall, he's pretty good at fighting and that's the only opinion we get of his prowess--his admissions of when he was outmatched notwithstanding.

And yeah, in the show we got him cutting Ubbe's Achilles tendons when he was conveniently able to reach his short sword on the ground, but what we saw also was that he really WAS outmatched--Ubbe would have eaten him for lunch if it hadn't been for luck on Uhtred's side. So they changed it around a bit, but I guess the scene in the show got the point across well enough.

As far as Odda the Younger, yeah, that's how it went in the books. The dude took credit for killing Ubbe when anyone watching knows that Ubbe would have run Odda through pretty quickly. Leofric even told Uhtred that probably would happen, and only when Uhtred finds out that no one knew he was still alive does he get pissed about it and storm into Alfred's court. I loved the scene where Wulfhere tells Uhtred that as far as everyone else is concerned, Odda the Younger killed Ubbe and the sun now shines out of Odda's rear end and he can do no wrong.

e: Re: Uhtred's bragging, it might help to know that the times he admits to not being able to take Ubbe after all are not the only times. Since the books are written as Uhtred being an old man looking back on his younger days, he speaks a lot of how arrogant and dumb he was, and how he knows better now, and how he would have done it differently if he knew then what he knows now.

life is killing me fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Nov 9, 2015

etalian
Mar 20, 2006



Funny how a majority of thread discussion is now about what happens or doesn't happen in the books.

life is killing me
Oct 28, 2007



etalian posted:

Funny how a majority of thread discussion is now about what happens or doesn't happen in the books.

Mostly my fault. I swore I wouldn't do this. I'll curb it, outside where the books give perspective on the characters' actions in the show

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010


etalian posted:

Funny how a majority of thread discussion is now about what happens or doesn't happen in the books.

I like it, both the show and the books are very good, and, like season 1 of Game of Thrones, the show stays very faithful to the spirit of the books, so it's actual discussion out of a like and interest of it, instead of just people complaining. Plus, the series is about ten books long at this point and I started reading it back when it first came out, so a lot of stuff is jumbled in my memory and it's enjoyable to be reminded of a lot of it.

Erghh
Sep 24, 2007
"Stuff"

Bookchat is ok, it's interesting to see the comparison and people liking one would probably go for the other. Keeps the thread going a bit too.

also; Ubba's actor seems p. chill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbPsdrkwPnw

VDay
Jul 2, 2003

I'm Pacman Jones!


Yeah I haven't read the books but I don't mind the bookchat either. People are doing a good job of not GoT-ing it and just blurting out what'll happen in future episodes/seasons. Comparisons to the source material after the fact can be pretty interesting and worth talking about, like how the Ubba fight was different but got the same general point across.

life is killing me
Oct 28, 2007



Yeah, and I'll continue to try to put anything in spoilers that happened in the books but not in the show yet. At least that way, if something turns out different in the show it can be discussed, rather than not spoiler tagging something and then it happens the same way in the show and people get pissed. I'd ask that anyone else who read the books does that too, but like VDay pointed out, we seem to have done an OK job of not spoiling things. Some things have happened and will happen the same way they did in the books, and the rest of the things that don't are done in an interesting enough way to get the same point across and to keep it interesting for people watching.

e: I also do really value talking about how the characters are in the books to be compared to the show, especially Uhtred.

etalian
Mar 20, 2006



Erghh posted:

Bookchat is ok, it's interesting to see the comparison and people liking one would probably go for the other. Keeps the thread going a bit too.

also; Ubba's actor seems p. chill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbPsdrkwPnw

The actor owned, I'm sort of sad he's out of the season since he added a good amount of unpredictable craziness to the show.

The duel showed why you don't make him angry or even worse try to fight him.

The negotiation scene was interesting since even though Uthred made piles of mistakes he's still really strong at improvisation and bold decision making.
He managed to use things such as the storm or his sorcerer failing to foresee rear end torture to exploit Uppa's superstitious nature.

etalian fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 9, 2015

Erghh
Sep 24, 2007
"Stuff"

etalian posted:

The actor owned, I'm sort of sad he's out of the season since he added a good amount of unpredictable craziness to the show.

The duel showed why you don't make him angry or even worse try to fight him.

The negotiation scene was interesting since even though Uthred made piles of mistakes he's still really strong at improvisation and bold decision making.
He managed to use things such as the storm or his sorcerer failing to foresee rear end torture to exploit Uppa's superstitious nature.

One thing that does jump out about Uthred is how agnostic/pragmatic he seems to be on the religious front. He's professed belief in Odin and has a priest for a friend but he'll still dig at people's religion to get an edge on them. That and his love of living dangerously is getting him places, anyway.

Sad to see Ubba out so soon but we're apparently getting a major Big Bad so that should be fun. Uthred could use a little smacking around and not the courtly Saxon kind, which just makes him angry.

Also shout to the expert treatise on tits.

VDay
Jul 2, 2003

I'm Pacman Jones!


I was sad to see Ubba go, but also pleasantly surprised as I figure it's a sign that they've got a lot of material to cover. Vikings already does a really good job on focusing on just one or two major conflicts per season, so I'm cool with this show moving things along at a slightly faster pace and rotating problems for Uthred in quicker.

life is killing me
Oct 28, 2007



I really identify more with the Danish characters and with Uhtred more than I identify with the Saxons, which, I suspect, is what Cornwell was going for. His own (assumed) disdain for Christianity kind of bleeds into how he writes Uhtred. The Vikings seem like the cooler guys to hang out with, like real bros who you could drink and fight with and just have fun. The Saxons? All they really do is tell everyone what they can't do. So I was also sad to see Ubbe go, though I know that he himself might not be all that fun to hang out with because he's superstitious and gloomy. I'm not sure what they'll do with Guthrum since, if you know your history, Guthrum eventually becomes king of, I think, East Anglia and converts to Christianity as a condition that he be allowed to rule there, and takes the Christian name of Aethelstan.. I'm guessing Kjartan will come back into the picture.

tooterfish
Jul 13, 2013



Yeah, I especially liked the way they repeatedly hoisted that peasant girl up to the rafters and let her drop. Fun guys.

life is killing me
Oct 28, 2007



tooterfish posted:

Yeah, I especially liked the way they repeatedly hoisted that peasant girl up to the rafters and let her drop. Fun guys.

Well, they're fun when they aren't torturing Christians :colbert:

etalian
Mar 20, 2006



tooterfish posted:

Yeah, I especially liked the way they repeatedly hoisted that peasant girl up to the rafters and let her drop. Fun guys.

didn't the tug of war over hot coals make up for it?

life is killing me posted:

Well, they're fun when they aren't torturing Christians :colbert:

The arrow test of faith scene was pretty hilarious.

Bates
Jun 15, 2006


life is killing me posted:

Well, they're fun when they aren't torturing Christians :colbert:

Better than barley, for sure.

Jamwad Hilder
Apr 17, 2007

surfin usa

dunno why'd they made him "Skorpor" instead of Svein.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Yes I am certainly overanalyzing television, but one thing that annoys me is how Jorvik and Leofric is pronounced with a Slavic "ich" sound. It's not present in any Scandinavian language, so the Danes certainly didn't call York "Jorvich". But maybe the Anglo-Saxons did? The sound is there in English, which bitchy witch etc. Anyone know?

etalian
Mar 20, 2006



The other reason to love this show is none of the episodes feel wasted and advance the plot in significant ways.

VDay
Jul 2, 2003

I'm Pacman Jones!


Pretty good episode and yeah I'm enjoying the fact that things seem to be moving at a decent pace, although I do hope Uhtred starts actually learning from his mistakes at some point. As much as I like that he's not randomly a political savant, him constantly stumbling directly into lovely situations that he should see coming is getting kind of old.

tooterfish
Jul 13, 2013



Ola posted:

Yes I am certainly overanalyzing television, but one thing that annoys me is how Jorvik and Leofric is pronounced with a Slavic "ich" sound. It's not present in any Scandinavian language, so the Danes certainly didn't call York "Jorvich". But maybe the Anglo-Saxons did? The sound is there in English, which bitchy witch etc. Anyone know?
Leofric is an Old English name, not a Scandinavian one, so I'm not sure why you're so scandalised by the pronunciation there? The ic is pronounced itch/ich in Old English.

Jorvik was derived from the Old English Eoforwic (which in turn was derived from the Roman Eboracum), so it's not beyond possibility they'd pronounce that itch/ich either. Each invader left their stamp, but obviously decided it sounded enough like something in their own language it didn't need to change too much. I bet it saved them a fortune on signposts...

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK


VDay posted:

Pretty good episode and yeah I'm enjoying the fact that things seem to be moving at a decent pace, although I do hope Uhtred starts actually learning from his mistakes at some point. As much as I like that he's not randomly a political savant, him constantly stumbling directly into lovely situations that he should see coming is getting kind of old.

His big problem is that he is impulsive and lets his anger take control. I'm pretty sure he's admitted that he hosed up after he calmed down several times. Of course he does do it in a maybe that would have been a more correct way of doing it fashion.

Collateral
Feb 17, 2010


His anger/impulsiveness is a device used by Bernard to put him in the right place at the right time. Otherwise he would be the greatest hero of all time, that nobody has heard of. The best comparison, that i can think of, would be SG-1 where they usually steal a ship but it blows up at the end of the episode, because it would make them too powerful for the plot.

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK


I like that the real lesson to be learned for Uhtred this episode is to make sure you kill everyone. Witnesses are a bitch.

etalian
Mar 20, 2006



similar to breaking bad the protagonist is quite the dick of a character

Wafflecopper
Nov 27, 2004

I am a mouth, and I must scream



etalian posted:

similar to breaking bad the protagonist is quite the dick of a character

Walter remains fairly sympathetic for the first season or two from what I remember, for Uthred it lasts for about the first half of the first episode.

etalian
Mar 20, 2006



Wafflecopper posted:

Walter remains fairly sympathetic for the first season or two from what I remember, for Uthred it lasts for about the first half of the first episode.

He's basically a heel character

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



tooterfish posted:

Leofric is an Old English name, not a Scandinavian one, so I'm not sure why you're so scandalised by the pronunciation there?

Ignorance! Scandinavian and old English has a lot in common, but many differences as well, thanks.

etalian
Mar 20, 2006



Collateral posted:

His anger/impulsiveness is a device used by Bernard to put him in the right place at the right time. Otherwise he would be the greatest hero of all time, that nobody has heard of. The best comparison, that i can think of, would be SG-1 where they usually steal a ship but it blows up at the end of the episode, because it would make them too powerful for the plot.

Not to mention part of the reason why he fails so much as a character is due to being caught between worlds. He was raised and personally accepts the norse values. However he's also obsessed with getting his lands and title back which requires working within the Saxon christian power structure.

However his personality flaws and beliefs put him at odds with playing politics good enough to accomplish his goals. The flaws keep him alive as well since even though Alfred is antagonized by his rebellious behavior he also realizes he needs a honest military advisor who is able to think outside the box and also have the fearlessness/killer instinct to execute the crazy plans.

-Blackadder-
Jan 2, 2007

Game....Blouses.


Just marathoned the first 6 episodes, liking it quite a lot. Almost feels like a faster paced Vikings. I like how the main character is flawed instead of being the typical superman protagonist who's equal parts genius and humble. Uthred is kind of an impatient dick who's personality screws him as much as it helps him. He's basically squandered a lot of the good will he would've got from two victories over the Danes just by being impatient and not listening to people's advice.

Next episode feels like it's going to be a waste though, since it's so obviously set up to end with a buddy sacrifice trope.

etalian
Mar 20, 2006



You’re as much a warrior as you are a King

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK


-Blackadder- posted:

Just marathoned the first 6 episodes, liking it quite a lot. Almost feels like a faster paced Vikings. I like how the main character is flawed instead of being the typical superman protagonist who's equal parts genius and humble. Uthred is kind of an impatient dick who's personality screws him as much as it helps him. He's basically squandered a lot of the good will he would've got from two victories over the Danes just by being impatient and not listening to people's advice.

Next episode feels like it's going to be a waste though, since it's so obviously set up to end with a buddy sacrifice trope.

The preview made it look like they're flipping the script and going in a totally different direction than that.

-Blackadder-
Jan 2, 2007

Game....Blouses.


Gyges posted:

The preview made it look like they're flipping the script and going in a totally different direction than that.

I didn't didn't see the preview, that would be cool though.

etalian
Mar 20, 2006



Hope Leofric survives, he's basically a god tier Bro

-Blackadder-
Jan 2, 2007

Game....Blouses.


I just watched the promo, it almost looked like they might doing the fight get's interrupted by someone(Guthrum) attacking the castle, or something.

life is killing me
Oct 28, 2007



They should follow the books with that inasmuch as they can, but I just read the part in the books where Uhtred meets Leofric for the first time and serves with him on a Saxon ship. Leofric is pretty formidable and IIRC, Uhtred realizes that not only would Leofric give him a run for his money, but also Leofric has a lot of warrior experience on Uhtred.

Now that I've started reading the books again, I have a new appreciation for how the show handles the various plots...like how they melded Alfred tricking Uhtred into marrying Mildrith and taking on her debts, with being tricked into Alfred's service in the first place. That was two different things in the book, first he gets tricked into serving on a ship with the promise of commanding troops with Leofric, then into marrying Mildrith, then into learning how to read, and then finally he's tricked into being a hostage with the Danes. He lets himself get tricked because he doesn't think, and all he can see is getting his birthright back. Hilariously, he gets tricked the whole time while thinking he's actually tricking Alfred, so I love how through all this he's slowly realizing how crafty a dude Alfred really is.

-Blackadder- posted:

I just watched the promo, it almost looked like they might doing the fight get's interrupted by someone(Guthrum) attacking the castle, or something.

Yeah, and now I see what they are doing. Since the show really must meld characters together since there are too many interesting characters to put in the show at once, I think what they are doing is making this fight the stand-in for what, in the books, was Uhtred fighting Steapa. Looks like Leofric in the show is actually Leofric AND Steapa (who isn't portrayed in the show as a separate character), which to me is smart writing.

life is killing me fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Nov 17, 2015

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010


life is killing me posted:

They should follow the books with that inasmuch as they can, but I just read the part in the books where Uhtred meets Leofric for the first time and serves with him on a Saxon ship. Leofric is pretty formidable and IIRC, Uhtred realizes that not only would Leofric give him a run for his money, but also Leofric has a lot of warrior experience on Uhtred.

Now that I've started reading the books again, I have a new appreciation for how the show handles the various plots...like how they melded Alfred tricking Uhtred into marrying Mildrith and taking on her debts, with being tricked into Alfred's service in the first place. That was two different things in the book, first he gets tricked into serving on a ship with the promise of commanding troops with Leofric, then into marrying Mildrith, then into learning how to read, and then finally he's tricked into being a hostage with the Danes. He lets himself get tricked because he doesn't think, and all he can see is getting his birthright back. Hilariously, he gets tricked the whole time while thinking he's actually tricking Alfred, so I love how through all this he's slowly realizing how crafty a dude Alfred really is.


Yeah, and now I see what they are doing. Since the show really must meld characters together since there are too many interesting characters to put in the show at once, I think what they are doing is making this fight the stand-in for what, in the books, was Uhtred fighting Steapa. Looks like Leofric in the show is actually Leofric AND Steapa (who isn't portrayed in the show as a separate character), which to me is smart writing.

Yeah, one of my favorite ongoing things in the books (mild spoilers to follow that aren't really plot spoilers, just about character development but I'll spoil em out anyway) is Uthred's gradual, growing respect for Alfred and realization of just how smart, competent and formidable Alfred really is throughout the books, same for Alfred towards Uthred, except the respect's towards different qualities and traits. There even seems to be a certain mutual fondness between them eventually that underlies the antagonism they still experience at times, and it leads to some great interactions between the two. I liked the chemistry between them so much that it made it tough getting into some of the later books when history had first moved beyond Alfred's reign. This changed, though, as soon as I started getting into some of the newer, now more prominent characters and their relationships with Uthred. etalian pretty much nailed the beginnings of this dynamic in an earlier post, and as he didn't read the books I think, it's a good sign that the show's doing a very good job with those characters and their relationship and it will only lead to bigger and better things in future seasons hopefully.

As for Steapa, I've also thought that Leofric may have inherited some of his traits on the show. I still think they could bring him on as a character next season if they wanted to though. He was prominent enough, and a really good character, so I think it'd definitely be worth it, budget and all that other stuff allowing

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life is killing me
Oct 28, 2007



Yeah and the book described Steapa as a big guy, and Leofric I think was shorter than Uhtred. Uhtred described himself as taller than most Saxons and I imagine that people back then were, just as a rule, shorter on average. In the show, Leofric is taller than Uhtred I think.

The only other thing was Steapa was enormously stupid, Uhtred says. That's a trait that Leofric, in the show, didn't seem to inherit. Steapa's nickname was Snotor, which meant something in pejorative terms about his lack of intellect.

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