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trucutru
Jul 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

Loiosh posted:

Because I've seen things like this happen before, I just gave you an example of a design that was not part of the original game. I mentioned WoW and the talent system being an accident earlier. Did you know the reason the talents changing classes was an accident because of the Shadow talent tree for Priests? They found during the beta they liked how it changed the design of the class fundamentally that they decided to try rolling it out for the other classes over time (Priests were the tests for a lot of things, which is why they were the only class that got unique racial talents/spells, which they scrapped later).


You're completely right but the thing is that in WoW they *had* a design at the start and then made changes to it after getting feedback. This is fine. The problem is when you apparently don't have an unifying design when you are working on the initial release.

It's like saying that the same thing happened to Street Fighter 2 because the first version didn't have super moves. They certainly weren't part of the original game.

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Berious
Nov 13, 2005

Daztek posted:

in star citizen nobody can hear you talk

Not missing anything it looks like Chris is taking questions about poo poo no one cares about

Beer4TheBeerGod
Aug 23, 2004
Exciting Lemon
You would think Chris would take the hint that nobody gives a poo poo about the character pipeline or mocap.

Vire
Nov 4, 2005

Like a Bosh
Haha this is amazing. I couldn't have predicted this to go as badly as it did.

blueberrysmith
May 4, 2006

Dirty Sanchez

Berious posted:

Not missing anything it looks like Chris is taking questions about poo poo no one cares about

He legit only cares about this game as a movie. Those are the only fielded questions.

DarkRefreshment
May 5, 2015

Nothing is funnier than a dog in a formal outfit. Look it up on the internets.

Loiosh posted:

Yup. The only funding used for this is the subscriber income. None of this comes out of the donations. You get what you pay for, basically.

Those mics being on the table is driving me crazy. They need to be mounted on arms or stands to isolate them from people hitting the tables. This is why I bought my friend one of these:

Not to be a dick man because you are a cool guy but... Money makes a camera guy walk in front of the camera guy actually filming? Dude sitting with CR on SQ42's mic not being up to as loud as Chris? People talking over cut outs to other videos? Currently the volume not working at all while Chris talks? (I won't go into the fact Chris has a nameplate in front of his name and other dude doesn't thus me having to call him other dude)

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos
Who's the giggling nodding muppet next to roberts?

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010

Loiosh posted:

I made the D3 reference hoping someone would pick up on it. D3 PVP was never balanced... and never released. It was an entire design document that was never used as they had to panic after release and fix their game first.

Which was kinda my point. poo poo happens during game development :)

I should note that they've been working on it now that the game is stable: http://www.news-loot.com/2015/03/23/next-diablo-3-update-brings-pvp-modes/

trucutru
Jul 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

Loiosh posted:

I made the D3 reference hoping someone would pick up on it. D3 PVP was never balanced... and never released. It was an entire design document that was never used as they had to panic after release and fix their game first.

Which was kinda my point. poo poo happens during game development :)

Yes, I got it. Sometimes you have a proper design and the game still sucks. And sometimes you have poo poo design and you can somehow salvage your game but guess how often that happens? Specially on games with huge budgets?

Matlock Birthmark
Sep 24, 2005

I wanted this to happen!!
Soiled Meat
Excuse me, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse with this maintenance and repair section. But has their been any mention in the last year that you'd need to replace sub-components as a physical activity for every single ship in the game?

Because it seems ludicrous that every ship in the game has a locker for items to repair individual systems on your ship.

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos
Looks like a ventriloquist now

Beet Wagon
Oct 19, 2015





Every room in CIG offices has an extra director's chair tucked away in the corner incase CR stops by.

Aesaar
Mar 19, 2015

Loiosh posted:

Because I've seen things like this happen before, I just gave you an example of a design that was not part of the original game. I mentioned WoW and the talent system being an accident earlier. Did you know the reason the talents changing classes was an accident because of the Shadow talent tree for Priests? They found during the beta they liked how it changed the design of the class fundamentally that they decided to try rolling it out for the other classes over time (Priests were the tests for a lot of things, which is why they were the only class that got unique racial talents/spells, which they scrapped later).

It's not all that unexpected in game development for things to take awhile to come down the pipe, especially when it's a minor portion of a larger game. FPS loadouts? Not that important to getting AC 2.0 and SQ42 out.

Very important for the FPS module.

Actually, you know, you have a good point. If they were close on the FPS module, you'd expect there to be a document for the loadout system!

So, you've convinced me, that's derpy.

I'm on the team for the Freespace Open campaign Blue Planet. I've watched missions get designed and edited and completely broken by what looked like an apparently minor stats change. There are changes we considered making to ships in the most recent release that we couldn't make because it would break existing missions. I've watched missions get scrapped because it turned out that ships that looked cool and interesting on paper turned out not to be fun to fight or fly in practice. We're struggling with making bomber gameplay fun, and it's been a serious obstacle in our work on act 4.

So I want you to know where I'm coming from when I say this:

You cannot design interesting and fun missions if you don't know exactly what your ships are capable of. You cannot design interesting and fun missions without playtesting the poo poo out of them, and that requires finalized gameplay mechanics. This is true for FSO, and there's no reason it wouldn't be true here. If CIG are designing missions now, they'll almost certainly need to remake them when they finally get around to deciding what their ships can and can't do.

Aesaar fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Nov 19, 2015

Beer4TheBeerGod
Aug 23, 2004
Exciting Lemon

Matlock Birthmark posted:

Excuse me, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse with this maintenance and repair section. But has their been any mention in the last year that you'd need to replace sub-components as a physical activity for every single ship in the game?

Because it seems ludicrous that every ship in the game has a locker for items to repair individual systems on your ship.

No this is the first we've really heard about how to repair stuff.

Beet Wagon
Oct 19, 2015





Matlock Birthmark posted:

Excuse me, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse with this maintenance and repair section. But has their been any mention in the last year that you'd need to replace sub-components as a physical activity for every single ship in the game?

Because it seems ludicrous that every ship in the game has a locker for items to repair individual systems on your ship.

I dunno, have you seen the inside of the Retaliator? That thing's like 95% lockers.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010

trucutru posted:

You're completely right but the thing is that in WoW they *had* a design at the start and then made changes to it after getting feedback. This is fine. The problem is when you apparently don't have an unifying design when you are working on the initial release.

It's like saying that the same thing happened to Street Fighter 2 because the first version didn't have super moves. They certainly weren't part of the original game.

We could talk about Halo as another example. Design document organized around an RTS game. Then changed for a third person shooter. And eventually released as an FPS. I think I mentioned a few days ago that Diablo 1 was originally turn-based and balanced that way before a last minute change to covert it to realtime.

Though Beer is still correct, having loadouts for SQ42 you'd want the design document ready by this point. Of course, we do already know they have loadouts in the game, it's been in AC 1.3 so you can set your loadouts for your different ships. That's why I was confused. I was wondering why we'd be caring about FPS loadouts when the game already has ship loadouts done and delivered.

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos
I am the CEO of Blizzard and let me tell you, Star Citizen is poo poo

trucutru
Jul 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

Matlock Birthmark posted:

Excuse me, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse with this maintenance and repair section. But has their been any mention in the last year that you'd need to replace sub-components as a physical activity for every single ship in the game?

Eventually* you will be able to force the slaves on the cargo hold to replace them for you. But only if you feed them well and their loyalty rating is high. Fortunately you can nuy brainwashing machines to raise their loyalty but you'll have to acquire neuronium from black market traders, using space bitcoins.


*This may be subject to change.

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos
I am also the CEO of Bungie and Star Citizen is a honking heap or turds

Beer4TheBeerGod
Aug 23, 2004
Exciting Lemon

Loiosh posted:

We could talk about Halo as another example. Design document organized around an RTS game. Then changed for a third person shooter. And eventually released as an FPS. I think I mentioned a few days ago that Diablo 1 was originally turn-based and balanced that way before a last minute change to covert it to realtime.

Though Beer is still correct, having loadouts for SQ42 you'd want the design document ready by this point. Of course, we do already know they have loadouts in the game, it's been in AC 1.3 so you can set your loadouts for your different ships. That's why I was confused. I was wondering why we'd be caring about FPS loadouts when the game already has ship loadouts done and delivered.

Nobody here is arguing that game development shouldn't involve flexibility and change. I'm not sure what you're defending there.

AP
Jul 12, 2004

One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them
Grimey Drawer

Loiosh posted:

Actually, I should note that a group I was involved with back when SC was in the early stages planned to 'acquire' portions of their fleet this way, by hijacking or insurance fraud. That way they could operate a deniable pirate division/wing that would handle Org espionage kind of activities.

Being the upstanding person that I am, I of course did not support this idea, tsktsk.

How's Imperium doing anyway?

Hav
Dec 11, 2009

Fun Shoe

Loiosh posted:

We could talk about Halo as another example. Design document organized around an RTS game. Then changed for a third person shooter. And eventually released as an FPS.

An RTS on a console?

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

Peter Gabriel, have you not been banned yet? Ask if the cutscenes in SQ42 are skippable.

trucutru
Jul 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy

Loiosh posted:

We could talk about Halo as another example. Design document organized around an RTS game. Then changed for a third person shooter.

YES! that's the whole point. They *had* one, or two, and then worked towards their stated goals.

CIG is like "wouldn't it be nice to have XXX poo poo?" work on it.

blueberrysmith
May 4, 2006

Dirty Sanchez
I enjoy that the Twitch moderators are systematically deleting comments about DEREK SMART.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010

DarkRefreshment posted:

Not to be a dick man because you are a cool guy but... Money makes a camera guy walk in front of the camera guy actually filming? Dude sitting with CR on SQ42's mic not being up to as loud as Chris? People talking over cut outs to other videos? Currently the volume not working at all while Chris talks? (I won't go into the fact Chris has a nameplate in front of his name and other dude doesn't thus me having to call him other dude)

This is one of the few areas I have direct experience on. And yeah, this kind of stuff happens when you don't have a pro team running around doing setup for you. Think of Giantbomb while Alex was traveling. Jeff and the team had no idea how to get the HDMI devices to work. They ended up only having one magic cable they could use because none of them knew how to correctly setup the HDMI negotiation and by the end of it, they had messed the configs for most of the scenes in the tricaster.

It happens when you don't have pros managing this :)

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos

SirPhoebos posted:

Peter Gabriel, have you not been banned yet? Ask if the cutscenes in SQ42 are skippable.

revmoo
May 25, 2006

#basta
Ahah

ecrap: Derek Dumb

to:

ecrap: <message deleted>

It's really entertaining seeing what they choose to censor out.

EDIT: Terraquartz: Smegma (not deleted)

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010

Hav posted:

An RTS on a console?

The original Halo was Mac-exclusive. It was based (initially) on the Myth-II engine.

G0RF
Mar 19, 2015

Some galactic defender you are, Space Cadet.

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

No this is the first we've really heard about how to repair stuff.
And it involves a rotating space restaurant floor somehow.

Loiosh
Jul 25, 2010

AP posted:

How's Imperium doing anyway?

I don't understand the question. Imperium?

Mr.Tophat
Apr 7, 2007

You clearly don't understand joke development :justpost:
Okay, a buddy of mine turned up to my house and asked, 'What is Star Citizen?' because I'm watching this stream.

Where the gently caress do I begin goons?

PhallicPhalanges
Jun 9, 2015


Her navel is all time musky... Bt look at her face... Her face makes my ROD wakes
This stream is poo poo. They are focused on the minutia instead of saying something substantial about the state of the game.

G0RF
Mar 19, 2015

Some galactic defender you are, Space Cadet.
Peter can you ask about Sandi's part in Squadron 42? Chris might actually answer that.

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos

Matlock Birthmark
Sep 24, 2005

I wanted this to happen!!
Soiled Meat

Mr.Tophat posted:

Okay, a buddy of mine turned up to my house and asked, 'What is Star Citizen?' because I'm watching this stream.

Where the gently caress do I begin goons?

Gamings longest performance art piece ever

blueberrysmith
May 4, 2006

Dirty Sanchez

Mr.Tophat posted:

Okay, a buddy of mine turned up to my house and asked, 'What is Star Citizen?' because I'm watching this stream.

Where the gently caress do I begin goons?

trucutru
Jul 9, 2003

by Fluffdaddy
So, is this stream supposed to wow us or something? I am serious here.

G0RF
Mar 19, 2015

Some galactic defender you are, Space Cadet.
I FIND YOUR LACK OF FAITH REFRESHING.

DUDE: "We still have to write those shaders for the faces but it's going to be great."

CHRIS likens the face creation to Fallout 4. It will have 40,000 polygons and still look like shiite.

G0RF fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Nov 19, 2015

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Beer4TheBeerGod
Aug 23, 2004
Exciting Lemon
Meanwhile in Elite...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6DEbuVGtUw

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