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Jobbo_Fett posted:So what's Ben's new x-mas name? Or has the poll not closed yet? Ben "the grinch" lessdick
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Dec 3, 2015 02:22
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Looks like the whales are a bit tapped out this close to Christmas. Hopefully they've got some spare presents to pawn so they can feed Chris' addiction to coke and mocap, the kids don't need those bikes anyway, they've got spaceships!
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Dec 3, 2015 02:23
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Tortolia posted:I look forward to seeing what new and inventive things they can break by both switching to DX12 and developing for Linux concurrently. I'm sure that it'll be a very clean implementation that will make it easy to create a Vulkan backend for non windows platforms. I'm sure that they've kept all of the platform specific code in StarEngine nicely contained while tearing it apart. I also have no doubt that they have access to the work CryTek is doing to create an OpenGL version of CE for Linux and won't go down the road of re-implementing it badly.
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Dec 3, 2015 02:26
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Beet Wagon posted:People are already complaining about griefing in PTU 2.0 croberts where is my pvp slider 
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Dec 3, 2015 02:32
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TTerrible posted:I'm sure that it'll be a very clean implementation that will make it easy to create a Vulkan backend for non windows platforms. I'm sure that they've kept all of the platform specific code in StarEngine nicely contained while tearing it apart. I also have no doubt that they have access to the work CryTek is doing to create an OpenGL version of CE for Linux and won't go down the road of re-implementing it badly. 
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Dec 3, 2015 02:37
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tooterfish posted:Looks like the whales are a bit tapped out this close to Christmas. As if the whales would put gifts for others first
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Dec 3, 2015 02:39
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Lu Yan posted:As if the whales would put gifts for others first Unless you are big tits Betty
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Dec 3, 2015 02:42
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EminusSleepus posted:Unless you are big tits Betty LOL 
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Dec 3, 2015 02:46
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AP posted:Sorry to return to this but when you say "this proves it without a doubt", are you referring to the below? It's difficult to explain to a layman. I actually covered some of this in several tweets yesterday. Check these threads. https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/671670852983857152 https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/671676555115028480 https://twitter.com/syberghost/status/671800002935656449 Also anyone who is a programmer and understands how this all works, can look at the image on p7 (the dotted line) of the article where it clearly shows what they're doing and how. And that hack implementation (which is actually 32*3 and not 32*2 points of ref as I thought), is what's primarily causing all the positional and physics problems atm. And no, the engineer has not contradicted himself. What he stated is precisely what I thought they did and which is not the reality of the poo poo that croberts (who has zero experience with all of this) has been spewing. It all boils down to what has been happening since day one. Chris's version of reality and the way things are, varies completely from those who are actually doing the work. I'm a systems level programmer with extensive AI and graphics experience. Heck, I've built many engines (game, AI, graphics, physics etc) from the ground up. So, like anyone (e.g. James Hicks from his article) who has experience with this stuff, it's easy to spot. At first, I was merely speculating (not quite sure how right I was) prior to even seeing that Jump Point article (which I missed, until it appeared on 11/30 in the Verse) based on what I'd learned up to that point. As I've said before, just like this article, the engineers are the only ones who can say, without a doubt, what they've done and how they've done it. Chris will just lie about it and/or shape the narrative if it goes against what he's already promised. The end result is this: I don't care what anyone says, the way they've done it will continue to cause problems for the entire game. The physics anomalies, the positioning anomalies, how ships react to damage (localized and remote) etc, are all tied into this because world space positioning is the core and backbone of any world system. This all came about because Chris wanted this massive world in which you had outdoor + indoor + indoor_ships + ships + vehicles (buggy) + fps + voodoo. But was still saying that it wasn't an MMO. Then somewhere along the line, it became an MMO because the "vision 2.0" he decided he was going to build, couldn't be built without it being based on the concept of an MMO. ...while not having an engine (CE3 is woefully inadequate for that) to actually do any it. Which, back in July when I said they didn't have the tech to build the game he promised, idiots told me I was jelly and just discounted me. Here we are. And this description by croberts from 2012 btw is pure bollocks now. All of it. D_Smart fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 02:53
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AP posted:Sorry to return to this but when you say "this proves it without a doubt", are you referring to the below? In short yes. 32 bit SIMD is basically your GPU, and that silicon is hard wired to (mostly) handle 32 bit data. There is a capability for it to do 64 bit calculations, but there is a massive performance hit. So SC was always going to largely be 32 bit, it just is a question of where and how. People speculated that the position of all the ships would be in 64 bit, whether nearby or far away. But what you have linked to suggests that everything local (the poo poo that matters) is all done in 32 bit. Taking the first developer quote: ZonePartitionSpace (32 bit) is the local zone/grid/partition where the game is doing all the hard work. Much in the same way that Fallout only fully simulates people nearby and not on the other side of the world. It's the smallest partiition of space where everything important is calculated. You use it to calculate the physics of all the objects, who is shooting who, track objects etc. All the stuff that is important to the action. ZoneSpace (64 bit) is for all the stuff that is further away, and stuff are not physically interacting with (but you can theoretically fly to). This is your mates ship who might be nearby but isn't part of the action, or on the other side of the star system (they show up as a dot on your HUD). You can consider this the part that has been hacked into the game. It is an intermediate step for what would otherwise be a fairly normal game engine. Calculate stuff nearby -> (Reconcile with stuff far away) -> Render screen. CameraSpace (32 bit) is using all the data from ZonePartitionSpace (32 bit). Now that all the extended info has been updated, the engine needs to do all the final work before getting the final image. This is the renderer part referenced in other engines. Send a ray out from your camera's viewpoint, get all objects it sees, and send if off to the GPU so it can flatten it and tidy it up into a nice 2D picture for your monitor (ScreenSpace transformation). It would be interesting to get an idea of the effective range of weapons, as this would also put a bound on the how large each partition needs to be. Maybe it has been answered elsewhere, but the only thing that remains is how large are the zone partitions? They could be smaller then what people think. The relatively low speed cap, coupled with the distances between major objects. This suggests that you aren't going to be firing on fleets hundred/s of kilometres away or sieging stations from even further away. It also makes it impractical to fly from one major object to the next, forcing you to warp between them, cutting down on the number of partitions a pilot would realistically be flying in (which would otherwise need to enumerated on in the ZoneSpace calculations). Tokamak fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 03:04
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Octopode posted:That Jump Point article doesn't say anything different than how they've been describing the system the entire time--I don't know why you think it is proof of some sort of hack implementation. Actually, that's rubbish. If you actually were keeping up with - and understood - their dev blogs, including all the crap croberts keeps spewing, you'd know that. Since I've been keeping track and following closely, and being that, you know, I'm a gamedev with vast experience in specifically this field and all, that's why it caught my attention. Octopode posted:Also, the star map does not represent a single, continuous space in the game as this and your previous comments imply. Each system represented on the star map is a single, large world Crusader-like map. You cannot fly directly from one system to another, normal travel is only possible within the bounds of each system. Transition between systems will be a transition between instances and accomplished only via jump points. You just made my point. Without even realizing it. And while you're at it, go ahead and tell me again how to build a massive world. Oh and mine is one contiguous space - with entire planets. And that's from UCCE 2.0 (first developed back in 2004 as UC and previously in 1996 as BC3K) currently free on Steam. 
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Dec 3, 2015 03:07
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 This is Moe.
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Dec 3, 2015 03:09
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Tokamak posted:In short yes. ^this Thanks for explaining in the simplest (I'm not very good with that) of terms my 32*3 reference above. Anyway, all of this goes back to what I've been crying foul about that this is not a large seamless world. But rather a series of connected zones, all stitched together to give the impression of one. Not the same thing. Yet, croberts (and now Ben) keep going on about how seamless the world is, just because the zones are not connected with jump points. In fact, they are, since you can't fly from one "zone" to another without either using QD or jump points. And you need to use jump points for intra-system (e.g. Stanton to another system) travel. To be clear, I have zero problems with how they've implemented it. It's their game, it's their problem to fix. My concern is that croberts keep touting stuff they don't have or haven't done. While gamers who don't have a clue, don't really understand the ramifications of everything he is saying as it relates to the game they *think* he is building and the problems that lie ahead and which are going to continue to either lead to even more delays, or complete rework of swathes of code, or nerfing of features which simply cannot be implemented in the engine as designed. D_Smart fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 03:16
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So the maps are still 32 bit but the positioning overall of everything else outside your "32 bit safe space" is kept in some kind of overlying 64-bit map?
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Dec 3, 2015 03:20
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Derek, please stop poking the idiot. We get it, you're right, he's wrong, and this may seem counter intuitive, but you're kinda making GBS threads up the thread with being right, as it only endlessly triggers the fool (Only Octopode could turn factually correct effort posts into poo poo  ).Either he's trolling you and you're wasting your time, or he's trolling himself and you're wasting your time. TLDR, Keep being Derek, you good thing you, just stop quite as Derek as you currently are. EDIT FOR CLARITY: Your posts themselves are great Derek, it is the endless trigger posts they spawn from him that are poo poo, and it kind of taints your posts as a whole as there is the inevitable "I wonder what dickface is going to say about this" aftertaste. McGiggins fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 03:21
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OhDearGodNo posted:So the maps are still 32 bit but the positioning overall of everything else outside your "32 bit safe space" is kept in some kind of overlying 64-bit map? Everyone is playing in little 32bit bubbles. The location of the bubbles in relation to each other is kept in a big 64bit map.
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Dec 3, 2015 03:22
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OhDearGodNo posted:So the maps are still 32 bit but the positioning overall of everything else outside your "32 bit safe space" is kept in some kind of overlying 64-bit map? Basically yes, but there aren't separate 32-bit maps. The maps are the overall 64-bit space; the local area you receive information and updates from the server about is a chunk of the larger map that is taken and converted down into a 32-bit space based around your current position; this chunk may also contain yet smaller chunks (in the form of ship or space station interiors). The overall system stores each object's position relative only to its parent chunk, until you eventually get back to the largest 32-bit subdivisions, which tie their positions back to the 64-bit world space coordinate system.
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Dec 3, 2015 03:29
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Shut the gently caress up Octopode. Goddamn, stop trolling Derek, he's the only sane fucker weighing in on this that actually knows what the gently caress he's talking about, specifically and exactly. Goddamn.
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Dec 3, 2015 03:32
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it took a while, but thank you guys (un-ironically) for boiling this down to a point where a huge retard like me can understand it. Also I'm sure some people in the 'Verse are being auto-trolled right now because they can finally make sense of it as well. Good work.
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Dec 3, 2015 03:35
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McGiggins posted:Goddamn, stop trolling Derek, he's the only sane fucker weighing in on this that actually knows what the gently caress he's talking about, specifically and exactly. 
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Dec 3, 2015 03:37
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Octopode posted:Basically yes, but there aren't separate 32-bit maps. The maps are the overall 64-bit space; the local area you receive information and updates from the server about is a chunk of the larger map that is taken and converted down into a 32-bit space based around your current position; this chunk may also contain yet smaller chunks (in the form of ship or space station interiors). The overall system stores each object's position relative only to its parent chunk, until you eventually get back to the largest 32-bit subdivisions, which tie their positions back to the 64-bit world space coordinate system. Are you basing this on what actual CIG devs said in that interview like the rest of us, or your own internal narrative?
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Dec 3, 2015 03:39
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A Neurotic Jew posted:it took a while, but thank you guys (un-ironically) for boiling this down to a point where a huge retard like me can understand it. I probably know close to what derek does, I just dont see a point in being redundant and saying the same thing he is.
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Dec 3, 2015 03:56
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TTerrible posted:Are you basing this on what actual CIG devs said in that interview like the rest of us, or your own internal narrative? Aren't they both wrong?
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Dec 3, 2015 03:58
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TTerrible posted:Are you basing this on what actual CIG devs said in that interview like the rest of us, or your own internal narrative? That is the system described in that interview, yes. They even explicitly say they did the conversion to 64-bit position fields, so I don't know why anyone would logically try and argue that the article somehow shows they didn't.
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Dec 3, 2015 04:00
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I have been gone for a while and it is cloudy here so I can't see the phase of the moon. That being the case, I'm going to need someone to let me know which phase of the cycle we are in between actually believing Dr Smart is a competent developer and making fun of BS9000AD. Also I flew around in a pixel spaceship today for about half an hour before it crashed. That was an experience.
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Dec 3, 2015 04:03
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We're at the Derek is right stage. We'll be out of that by the end of December, one way or another, as either he's right, SC crashes and he's no longer relevant (good night sweet prince), or he's wrong, at which point he's no longer relevant.
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Dec 3, 2015 04:16
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Ffycchi posted:I probably know close to what derek does, I just dont see a point in being redundant and saying the same thing he is. ok well thanks
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Dec 3, 2015 04:19
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Midnight Voyager posted:Do you not see the difference between what you're talking about and someone just coming right out and saying "I don't care about human suffering at all"? Sent from my iPhone
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Dec 3, 2015 04:20
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Thanks for the update. I'll take those odds - seems like a winning bet! Dr Smart, do you care to comment on the current state of space toilet physics? Due to your vast industry experience and repeated successful title launches, I consider you an expert on this subject and would like to hear what you think.
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Dec 3, 2015 04:22
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Octopode posted:That is the system described in that interview, yes. They even explicitly say they did the conversion to 64-bit position fields, so I don't know why anyone would logically try and argue that the article somehow shows they didn't. Because they are lying bastards
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Dec 3, 2015 04:23
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I literally wouldn't trust Ben Lesnick to tell me what he had for lunch.
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Dec 3, 2015 04:25
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A Neurotic Jew posted:I literally wouldn't trust Ben Lesnick to tell me what he had for lunch. I'd trust him to but I'm a busy guy, havn't got that kind of time
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Dec 3, 2015 04:29
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Octopode posted:Basically yes, but there aren't separate 32-bit maps. The maps are the overall 64-bit space; the local area you receive information and updates from the server about is a chunk of the larger map that is taken and converted down into a 32-bit space based around your current position; this chunk may also contain yet smaller chunks (in the form of ship or space station interiors). The overall system stores each object's position relative only to its parent chunk, until you eventually get back to the largest 32-bit subdivisions, which tie their positions back to the 64-bit world space coordinate system. How do you accurately perform 32-bit calculations between two loosely connected 32-bit spaces and render it? The 64-bit stuff is a nice programming trick to get some extra information about far away objects and to facilitate phasing between neighbouring 32-bit partitions. This will not impact the moment to moment gameplay in any meaningful way. There's a reason why combat is close quarters with a dozen people, and not fleet battles with multiple squads/platoons. I'm sorry that you won't be able to use a telescope to view someone else's spaceship being boarded tens of kilometres away. I'm sorry that a ship in the distance will not explode with kinematics being accurately calculated for each part. I'm sorry that you are not going to be able to fire a torpedo at a space station thousands of kilometres away and have it it hit. I'm sorry that your spaceship has a top speed of under 2 km/s. I'm sorry that you are playing with aeroplanes in space, and not with hard sci-fi spaceships. The dream of the Best drat Space Sim Ever is full of glaring holes and it will ruin your immersion.
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Dec 3, 2015 04:30
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A Neurotic Jew posted:I literally wouldn't trust Ben Lesnick to tell me what he had for lunch. Plus it'd take ages anyway, and who's got time for that poo poo? ^^^Peter that's my joke!  ^^^
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Dec 3, 2015 04:31
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A Neurotic Jew posted:I literally wouldn't trust Ben Lesnick to tell me what he had for lunch. Obviously, they would need a real 64 bit system to account for all of that data.
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Dec 3, 2015 04:32
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tooterfish posted:Yeah. 
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Dec 3, 2015 04:36
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TTerrible posted:Are you basing this on what actual CIG devs said in that interview like the rest of us, or your own internal narrative? In the latest bugsmashers they actually address this. One of the crashes for the 2.0.0 test was caused by a 64-bit position being put into a 32-bit local zone grid. The resulting overflows caused the physics interpolation to crash SC. I think this should answer this question going forward. The ship grids are 32-bit precision. The global space is 64-bit. The full explanation is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhzEA15KH8o&t=5m10s to 6:15
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Dec 3, 2015 04:38
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"some steamed broccolli and some quinoa"
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Dec 3, 2015 04:40
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McGiggins posted:We're at the Derek is right stage. Right. Either way I'm screwed. Got it. 
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Dec 3, 2015 04:40
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Loiosh posted:In the latest bugsmashers they actually address this. One of the crashes for the 2.0.0 test was caused by a 64-bit position being put into a 32-bit local zone grid. The resulting overflows caused the physics interpolation to crash SC. I think this should answer this question going forward. The ship grids are 32-bit precision. The global space is 64-bit. We're (as I understand it) on the same page there. 32bit local with global as 64bit. Also, Tokamak please stay.
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Dec 3, 2015 04:43
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