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Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Jst0rm posted:

I made it to the end of the thread. I just thought you would all want to know that.

And you still don't have a game, but you did get to see quite a lot of hairy pussy...s.

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Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe


quote:

FYI, the median wage in the US per person is $26,695 per annum.

$51,000 or so. Nice work.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Daztek posted:

Apparently they're a difference between average wage and income :v:

http://www.mybudget360.com/how-much-do-americans-earn-what-is-the-average-us-income/

Young Freud posted:

$26k is the income of an individual wage earner. $51K is median household income, which means one or more people over the age of 15 are contributing to the income of the household.

e:fb

You're both right, and that amount is utterly tragic. It kinda shoves home how much $18K actually is.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

In other news, CCP sold White Wolf to Paradox in what can only be called a 'fire sale' in which CCP has handed over all the assets for their WoD 'MMO' which was cancelled in April 2014 after _9_ years of development. Eve players will remember the $79 monocle that created the Burn Jita movement and prompted a bunch of us to drop the game when Hilmar famously compared ingame jpegs with designer jeans.

This is an interesting roundup of the problems that CCP faced: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf

quote:

There was another problem. Several members of the WoD development team told the Guardian that this early bump in the road was exacerbated by extreme disorganisation on the part of CCP’s Icelandic management. Very shortly after initial development began, the company started blurring the lines between the World of Darkness and Eve projects.

Repeatedly, staff were shifted over from the former to work on expansion projects for the latter. At times, our sources say, the entire WoD staff was put onto Eve, particularly during the development of 2009 add-on Apocrypha.

“On many different occasions throughout the years I was there, CCP would often ‘poach’ WoD staff for expansion projects,” recalls Nick Blood, a former developer and game master at CCP.

Sounds familiar.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

OMGWTFTREEHACK posted:

we strongly believe in free speech and allow many dissenting opinions

Strongly believing doesn't allow, it ferociously defends.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Demiurge4 posted:

So I haven't gotten my money yet and when I emailed to complain I got an automated email which means my old ticket was closed. It wasn't paid for through paypal so how do I get the Derek in on this? My refund was supposedly actioned on October 6th.

You don't, talk to Paypal.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe


It's more Space AIDS than cancer.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Fish Fry Andy posted:

I have a higher reddit score than either of the people in that picture, so I guess that I don't have to imagine poo poo. :smugdog:

Yes, I'm pretty sure that they're not entirely aware that there's a bunch of us standing behind them. They complain about Eve Goons and yet keep falling for the same poo poo over and over.

Did me an honest google search on 'release date for star citizen', and the Googs gave me '2017'. It did throw up this page which is a nice roundup of the dates given so far.

http://starcitizen.wikia.com/wiki/Anticipated_Release_Schedule

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

SneakyFrog posted:

yeah i'm in FL as well, dont have to tell me about those folks. crazy.

The I4 corridor is usually safe-ish. it's when you stray into Brevard, Polk or Lake you have to worry.

Word to FLGoons.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Im_drunk posted:

Hello friends, when is the show starting? Also I looked through 2015's WARN report for Texas and did not spot anything on CIG. Shouldn't they be in it if they're closing studios down?

the WARN Act posted:

A WARN notice is required when a business with more
than100 full-time workers (not counting workers who
have less than 6 months on the job and workers who
work fewer than 20 hours per week) is laying off at least
50 people at a single site of employment (see glossary
and FAQs), or employs 100 or more workers who
work at least a combined 4,000 hours per week, and is
a private for-profit business, private non-profit organization,
or quasi-public entity separately organized from
regular government.

I believe that Austin was around 50? if their numbers dipped below that, they wouldn't have to give notice. They'd also be excluded on the basis of consolidating or changing the places of business.

http://www.doleta.gov/layoff/pdf/EmployerWARN09_2003.pdf

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Agrajag posted:

whatever happened to the fig startup poo poo? i want to laugh at that also

They have a couple of projects on the table, but considering that it's like crowdfunding, but with venture money, there's a lot more care and examination of the projects themselves, and whether they'll return anything other than drama and confirming what games publishers have been saying for a decade.

Give it a few more months before they do something more interesting.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Octopode posted:

You realize at the point that Star Citizen began development, CryEngine and UE3 were the only games in town as far as licensable, high-end engines, right? And that developing an engine from scratch is orders of magnitude more difficult than adapting even a badly-suited engine to your needs, right? And that, given the choice between having to adapt two equally unsuited engines to the task, it makes much more sense to actually go with the one with a developer that's willing to commit significant engineering expertise to helping you do so, right?

What are you using as your point of 'began development'? The commodity engines aren't the only game in town, just the only 'single box' engine.

I question anyone that assumes that 32bit math would be enough for a space game. Don't you?

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

kikkelivelho posted:

They've already committed to rewriting most of the engine. Moving to a new one doesn't really make sense once your that deep.

It's called 'sunk cost fallacy', and it's one of the reasons why good project management is required.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

kikkelivelho posted:

There isn't a single engine on the market that has the features that CIG/Roberts need and want. They would have to do a rewrite no matter what engine they chose. They've started modifying Cryengine so might as well stick with it.

I doubt there's a single engine in the Universe that can fulfil the frankly mobile sands of what CiG need/want, and that is basically the point. If you size your engine based on spaceflight, that's one thing, but then you commit to an FPS, which places your requirements firmly in an entirely new domain. Just consider the scales involved in, say, a simulated arena 200km across, and one of 200m. it was like the really early prevarication over newtonian and 'plane' physics; you can put both in the game, but they will significantly alter the gameplay experience.

There's a reason why the 'seamless' scale games aren't taking off, and that's a technical limitation in what we call 'mathing really big numbers' and the arbitrary significance of measuring an angle with a baseline of a couple of km vs a couple of metres. Most games entirely cheat and change the distances involved to a scale of their own choosing.

Also, if you're _rewriting_ a cocking _engine_, you started off with an entirely terrible premise to begin with, which doesn't fill anyone who actually programs with a lot of hope that this is going to 'come together' in any fashion.

Project management defines the scope of the project. A good project manager will stick to deadlines and provide a solid go/no go on work. He'll also be the unsmiling bastard who asks you where your stuff is on a daily basis. Ideally you should hate your project manager because he's there to keep you honest. I speak of this as a programmer for a _large_ corporate, where it's applied as a tool to ensure that the deadlines don't shift.

Why's this important? Well, it allows you to manage your resourcing better, especially amongst multiple critical paths. That's not to say that you could have sysadmin jumping on programming, but you could avoid laying people off because their pipeline fizzled out. it allows for a really good idea of how the project is doing in terms of a 1-100%, and allows for marketing to spool up their campaigns, which are often created months in advance.

The opposite model is JIT and doesn't allow for planning. It's a reactive process where someone makes a determination, often without quorum and adjusts the whole tooling path. _This_ is the biggest problem with open-ended crowd-funding where people felt they had to justify the increased money with bigger and better features, when all people want is a solid game.

poo poo, I threw in my $35 when it was Croberts and the Cloud Imperium website, before the kickstarter, but nothing I'm seeing speaks to competance in planning, and failing to plan is planning to fail.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

LCL-Dead posted:

I've got a thing for skinny dark haired women looking like they just came out of a meth clinic.

Florida is the state for you, although they'll probably be coming out of a meth clinic.

Yes, I live in Florida, why?

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Chalks posted:

Two weeks you say?

Next sprint. It's always next sprint.

T.G. Xarbala posted:

Yeah no Vox Day is toxic as gently caress.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

xutech posted:

As an outsider to the game, every time I read about Star Citizen, I get the feeling that it is a complex pyramid scheme. I remember a Goon friend telling me that because they had bought in early, I could buy into the game through them and get benefits that were no longer available.

Yes, this is the main point, and it's not a complex pyramid scheme, it's just a new one. The more interesting aspect is that it's giving lots of company names from the refunds that expose links between the different trading entities in different countries. Those 'early' benefits would have been the LTI packages from the first six months or so.

I fired it up at the weekend to get a good look away from our echo chamber, and I'm even more convinced that they've painted themselves into a corner. There's significant input lag in the _hanger_, movement is at a shuffle without the 'run' modifier and geometry pop-in is apparent. Getting into the ship can also involve some fun clipping as the camera rapidly bounces between two positions.

Aren't they supposed to be releasing an update soon?

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Wafflz posted:

I don't know how anyone's brain can see how janky everything they have produced so far is and still say "this is going to be the glorious savior of pc gaming."

Given that the recent UI changes appear to be going the direction of simulation fidelity ~ think DCS ~ I have trouble understanding how it's going to fit into the 'game' portion. Their fundamental problem still is that they have a list of promises and no overarching plan other than what Croberts decides the flavor d'jour.

Also I can clip out of the back of my pilots head with TrackIR. PC GAMING IS SAVED.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Loiosh posted:

Sorry for the long poo.

That's fine, but;

Loiosh posted:

Since that point, I've seen a steady release cycle.

I'm interested in why you believe that the release cycles have been steady considering that various milestones have changed, prioritized and de-prioritized. I'll also point out that I'm 43, so the old 'everyone forgets how games are developed' doesn't really strike true, considering that I also have kickstarted a few campaigns. Certainly coming out after a couple of years and telling people that 32-bit math isn't going to cut it seems really bizarre, although there was no sense of scaling indicated from the start.

This one I threw into before it actually hit kickstarter, based on the idea of producing a new 'wing commander'. It was with some amusement that I started watching the scope creep.

Perhaps you'd like to express your feelings on scope creep, or the overall plan/road map?

Loiosh posted:

Multiplayer Large is released (player counts over 15).

What number are they aiming for? Bearing in mind that we already have models for this kind of thing.

You've described normal game development, but under a climate of shifting sands. Why do they have shifting sands?

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

spacetoaster posted:

Considering that there are actual Jedi (a religion made up by George Lucas for a movie), I'd say it's not completely crazy to think that some people would start a video game religion irl.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

Although it was a nascent protest over a religious question in the census.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Loiosh posted:

I don't want to look like I'm spamming the thread, so please forgive me if I'm answering a lot. One of our datacenters went down and I cannot do much work :/ - I did not join in during the kickstarter because I felt the game as too small for what I was looking for. The original investment pitch was along the lines of Earth and Beyond/Freelancer ++ You can imagine that my response to creep is :gizz: because a deep sim is the kind of thing I'm interested in. I totally get why people who saw the original Wing Commander + small MMO idea and wanted that game and not what SC has become.

This is where I was. Giving to the original pitch for Squadron 42 was a hail mary willingness to throw $35 on something that may not happen, and remains the only reason why I won't ask for a refund. I *already* considered it dead money the second I forked it over. it was the creeping feature list that convinced me that they didn't have a solid plan going in.

You don't start with a rowing boat and accrete to an ocean liner. And if you want deep sim, check out Rogue System (http://imagespaceinc.com/rogsys) - He's attempting to build the Falcon 4 of space sims and has a very solid development plan. He didn't succeed on kickstarter because it's a niche, but a niche that SC appears to be moving towards if the ship UIs are anything to judge by.

I think you're optimistic, personally. I'd like to actually play the game, but what I've been presented has actually been a very, very bad showing.

edit:

LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:

How the gently caress could anyone see the shady poo poo CIG is doing wrt refunds and think "yeah, I can trust these people"

I can understand rough game development and all that stuff at least a little, but how the gently caress do you gently caress up refunds?

Not having ready liquidity. Needing to find a way to alter the perception of mass refunds to other VC. Sandi.

They certainly don't want a big blob of dissatisfaction chilling sales of upcoming soon to be released ships.

Hav fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Nov 9, 2015

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

D_Smart posted:

And since the FTC is the Fed agency in charge of that, not to mention that the attorney generals in various States are getting involved in crowd-funding scams, it's going to be a whole lot messier than the 38 Studios implosion. And even in that case, someone went to jail for fraud. Then there's the FBI who will somehow get involved. Especially given that several parties have now been linked to the likes of Gizmondo.

Who do you think went to jail over 38 Studios' loan? There were depositions, but the only person jailed was Buddy Cianci over 'Plunder Dome', which was only peripherally connected. It was a terrible deal, but stopped short of actual fraud. Rhode Island brought a suit based on fraud and walked away with a settlement for $4.4 million.

https://web.archive.org/web/20121119012618/http://www.riedc.com/files/Complaint-with-exhibit-final.pdf

tl;dr - they tried to sue everyone and got virtually nowhere.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

D_Smart posted:

Yeah, that's who I was referring to. At least I think that was him, last I checked. Regardless, someone was jailed for fraud related to the 38 Studios fiasco. And regardless of how they were connected to it, my statement that "someone went to jail for fraud" is still valid.

No, it's not. Being jailed for something implies a criminal case, not a civil case. Rhode Island brought a civil case because they had no primary evidence of fraud that would have interested the FBI, mainly because their assertion is a risk assessment was *ignored*. Bear in mind that you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a specific attempt to defraud, rather than simply being forgetful or crap. Most fraud cases that are actually heard involve someone handing someone else money.

To specify this more, to be jailed for fraud in the 38 studios case, you'd need to be named as a defendent for the crime, convicted and jailed. That's the thing that I cannot find.

Fraud is deliberate deception; that's the level that you have to prove. Throwing around the word as red meat is all well and good, but most fraud cases collapse on 'deliberate deception'.

ShredsYouSay posted:

whatever happened with that clang project, did anyone get their money back

No. They set up some sort of website for processing refunds, but slunk away from it. The guy who backed at the level of the sword got his, but everyone else got shafted. The 'alpha' they claimed to release was literally a demo level in Unity. To be fair that one was a terrible pitch by a guy that probably regrets fronting his friends.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Xaerael posted:

I did an upscaled reproduction of the Skeksis Chamberlain puppet a few years back.

'did' means manufactured, I hope. Skeksis always seem spiky in the wrong places. I mean, if you swing that way, all well and good...

Edit: ^^^ Publix in central Florida never seem to run out of salad cream. I find that it works incredibly well on chicken. Also fish finger sandwiches. My bulk imports are smoky bacon walkers crisps and fucktons of chocolate. Now if only I could find a sausage worth a drat.

Hav fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Nov 17, 2015

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Stanko-Prussian posted:

Publix seem a little overpriced, but they're the only place i've found over here outside of weird speciality stores that sell yorkshire tea and i need that to retain my human form. pg tips is piss

World Market usually carries Yorkshire. Tetley does a British blend (purple box) that you won't be paying the ridiculous 'lol foreign' tax on, and I'll fight you if you diss Tetley. PG Tips is the devil, however.

Berious posted:

probably wouldn't fly in any country with proper consumer protection laws.

And you don't think the UK has proper consumer protection laws?

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

1500 posted:

Ah more projecting, and making poo poo up.

Those funny curly things after the statements are 'question marks'. They're interrogative and indicate a desire to have an answer supplied. It's a debate technique.

'Projecting' would tend to involve something to project upon, so a strawman or other construct.

You could answer the questions, but you don't. Why is that?

The EU in general has something known as a 'cooling off' period which is two weeks. It allows anyone who signed a contract the ability to walk away from said contract to remove the concept of coercion. That's really clear law.

Most member states have statutory rights of 1-2 years where the goods or service should perform. if the goods or service fail within this time period, you have the right to a repair or replacement. if the repair is made more than once and satisfaction isn't achieved, a refund may be given.

FD offered refunds when they said that they couldn't fulfill the offline mode, and people started to ask for them. I'm of the opinion that they attempted to do right by people, mostly because it's backed by EU law that _has been_ ratified by the member states, so I tend to treat complaints about FD 'pulling an SC' to be hyperbole.

edit: it's one of the reasons why EULA are contentious in the EU and only have a very tenuous link to the law. Disclaiming responsibility does not shield companies from the law, and in most cases you're asked to make the agreement before judging the fitness for purpose. it used to be easy to argue that software was a special case, but less so given the productization and ubiquity of applications now.

Hav fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Nov 17, 2015

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Berious posted:

I'm tickled that this random thing is a delicacy abroad. Derek how do you feel about marmite and have you tried it on a grilled cheese sandwich?

I worked in Burton-upon-Trent, and every Wednesday was maltings day. The Marmite factory was two doors down from the Bass brewery, and the entire town reeked of marmite.

I loving hate Marmite. Worcestorshire sauce for grilled cheese, though...

Gwaihir posted:

Publix owns super hard.

Better than Albertsons, at least.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Berious posted:

Earl grey tastes like washing up liquid to me

Tetley is the tea of the proletariat - preferably strong enough to stand your spoon up in

Five minutes or go home.

D_Smart posted:

Wait. Are you saying that nobody connected to the 38 Studios fiasco was jailed for fraud?

Yeah, that's what I've been trying to hunt down. Schilling and a couple of the other guys had to liquidate a bunch of assets to throw Rhode Island 4.4 million to settle. The alternative would have been going to trial, and actually proving 'deliberate deception' is usually a bitch unless there's a specific attempt to cover it up.

Mirificus posted:

Deliberately preying on people with mental illness with the rationale of "helping" them was really gross.

It's one of the bigger reasons that Scientologists don't like psychology. Competition.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

AP posted:

The mentally ill are very into gaming twitter it appears.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Sillybones posted:

I don't use ketchup for anything but steaks.

...in fancy restaurants.

Hotdogs need chili and cheese.

1500 posted:

Are you trying to make a point?

The horse is dead. Leave it alone.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Loiosh posted:

These meetings are generally about trying to raise money (that doesn't come from family / credit card debt). They're always pretty fascinating. You can tell the guys who know their poo poo vs passionate start up types almost instantly.

The number of Facebooks and Apples is so rare.

Yep. Back when I was customer facing, we'd end up with pitches once a week for something that was obviously infringing because they don't even do the modicum of research.

My favourite was someone who wanted to stream Disney movies and didn't understand the concept of copyright.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

peter gabriel posted:

My company is mad, not in a OMG WHACKY way but just in the diversity of the work done, example, this couple of weeks or so I have been involved in:

Shoreditch by any chance?

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

Supposedly abuse will be investigated by a GM.

There's no way this T20 can go wrong.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

Out of all the problems CIG is facing "GMs potentially abusing their authority" barely registers.

After your exposure to the Brown Sea, if this come....oh, right.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe


Whose bedroom are they filming this in?

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Matlock Birthmark posted:

So, this is a game mechanic on every single ship apparently.

I'm crossing my fingers that there will be dimensional differences so you have to nip back down to the shop and explain you needed a headlamp bulb for an Aurora LTI 2013 rather than an Aurora.

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

trucutru posted:

Otherwise you're spending time and resources on something nobody will use.

Diablo 3 is a terrible example. Or a great example.

Edit: ^^^ yeah, I caught that, but Diablo 3 also managed to completely gently caress their base game by trying to embed transactions and grind lengths that would enable the armor sets to be built for the end game. Their design document made raging assumptions that they didn't successfully flesh out.

With regard to the game itself, the ruleset is _tiny_ compared with even a piece of what's being floated here, and the gaps between the systems will gently caress everything, because thats where we live. poo poo, one of the reasons that goons are hated by a large amount of the gaming public is that we'll exploit systems that are badly designed.

It's literally the thing we do.

Beer's point is that they're tapdancing around things that should have been settled a couple of years back; this isn't really scope creep, as that would tend to suggest a _fixed scope_. This is a wildly vacillating scope.

Hav fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Nov 19, 2015

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Loiosh posted:

We could talk about Halo as another example. Design document organized around an RTS game. Then changed for a third person shooter. And eventually released as an FPS.

An RTS on a console?

Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Loiosh posted:

The original Halo was Mac-exclusive. It was based (initially) on the Myth-II engine.

In 2000 it was still an FPS that was heading for Mac and Windows before It was bought as a launch title for the XBox. Myth II was launched in 1998, so the cycle that you describe would have taken around a year, but very probably less considering how long the acquisition of Bungie took. Halo was released in 2001.

trucutru posted:

So, is this stream supposed to wow us or something? I am serious here.

I was expecting something more.

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Hav
Dec 11, 2009



Fun Shoe

Loiosh posted:

Yup, they roll onto work right after the major development on Myth II wrapped. 1999 was the RTS portion, you can find video of them talking about the history of development. It wasn't an FPS [until] 2000. At the Macworld 1999 demo, it was shown as a third person shooter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2RVje3MyhQ

Yeah, you're right, 2001 is when it was rewritten as a first person. So, to wrap up _1 year_ prior to the xbox release is when they started to rewrite the whole thing as an FPS.

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