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I don't think Falcom are in a position to have their games echo the political sentiments of places like lefty Twitter. The otaku market has rarely been keen on progressivism and putting that kind of stuff in their games would likely tank their sales. It sucks, but that's how it is. Angry right-wing otakus are a force to be reckoned with.
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Feb 7, 2021 21:30
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They wouldn't put it in as what they apparently consider a simple and obvious moral of the story if they didn't believe it deep down with all their heart, imo. That's just how their writers see the world. Like, this is clearly not supposed to be controversial in their minds.
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Feb 7, 2021 21:35
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Idkbutlike2 posted:I don't think Falcom are in a position to have their games echo the political sentiments of places like lefty Twitter. The otaku market has rarely been keen on progressivism and putting that kind of stuff in their games would likely tank their sales. It sucks, but that's how it is. Angry right-wing otakus are a force to be reckoned with. Even if you're catering to right wingers, you don't have to put "Robin Hood was bad, actually" in your video game.
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Feb 7, 2021 21:40
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Clarste posted:They wouldn't put it in as what they apparently consider a simple and obvious moral of the story if they didn't believe it deep down with all their heart, imo. That's just how their writers see the world. Like, this is clearly not supposed to be controversial in their minds. I think you're putting way too much stock in Falcom's writers retaining their creative integrity in the face of pandering and commercial value. They've been ridiculously receptive to their audience in the last decade or so.
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Feb 7, 2021 21:48
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Idkbutlike2 posted:I don't think Falcom are in a position to have their games echo the political sentiments of places like lefty Twitter. The otaku market has rarely been keen on progressivism and putting that kind of stuff in their games would likely tank their sales. It sucks, but that's how it is. Angry right-wing otakus are a force to be reckoned with.
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Feb 7, 2021 21:59
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I personally strongly subscribe to stories being stories, and the only politics that should be in them is the politics the people of that world engage in. And I really don't think most people write entire games and long running series with pushing their political agenda as a priority. Well, barring Enviromentalism, considering how many times I've killed the physical representation of the worlds hate for man.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:02
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Politics cannot be isolated from the writing. Politics are an internalized worldview that informs everything that happens in a story, right down to the most basic "who is the good guy?" If you believe something is non-political that just means you've internalized those beliefs so deeply that you can't even imagine them not being true.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:07
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Idkbutlike2 posted:I don't think Falcom are in a position to have their games echo the political sentiments of places like lefty Twitter. The otaku market has rarely been keen on progressivism and putting that kind of stuff in their games would likely tank their sales. It sucks, but that's how it is. Angry right-wing otakus are a force to be reckoned with. I mean this would make more sense if there weren't plenty of otaku-based stuff that at least is willing to try. Fuckin' Super Robot Wars can do an entire game about how capitalism is a greater evil than anything else and also lesbians are super cool.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:11
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Amppelix posted:what the gently caress Are you really that surprised by this? It's not even a hot take or anything. MythosDragon posted:I personally strongly subscribe to stories being stories, and the only politics that should be in them is the politics the people of that world engage in. And I really don't think most people write entire games and long running series with pushing their political agenda as a priority. Same, but I don't think anyone's really claiming that Falcom are trying to make any serious political statements in their games (at least I hope they aren't). Just that the ideas they present in the context of their own worlds and stories seem stupid and tacky. quote:Well, barring Enviromentalism, considering how many times I've killed the physical representation of the worlds hate for man. I remember talking with my friend about this and he said that this kind of stuff isn't really about environmentalism, but rather some old school Japanese philosophy about man vs. nature, i.e., mankind should never try to overstep their bounds and play god with the natural world or bad things will happen. It's kind of like the concept of hubris in western mythology.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:14
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ImpAtom posted:I mean this would make more sense if there weren't plenty of otaku-based stuff that at least is willing to try. In the most recent Yakuza game, when the main character (Very minor early spoilers about an unrelated game) started going off about how poor people are lazy and complacent was immediately put in his place by a monologue from his friend that basically boiled down to "No you loving idiot" On Ys 9, looking from the outside-in this seems like a shonen-esque self reliance platitude that does not read well nowadays, driven out of control. This is me trying to be diplomatic here, though. Unlucky7 fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Feb 7, 2021 |
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Feb 7, 2021 22:21
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Unlucky7 posted:In the most recent Yakuza game, when the main character (Very minor early spoilers about an unrelated game) started going off about how poor people are lazy and complacent was immediately put in his place by a monologue from his friend that basically boiled down to "No you loving idiot" To be fair, Yakuza: Like a Dragon is a bit of an outlier in terms of how much it cares about people on the margins of society.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:25
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ImpAtom posted:I mean this would make more sense if there weren't plenty of otaku-based stuff that at least is willing to try. That kind of stuff is in the minority. However much of it you can list is vastly outnumbered by tons of power fantasy trash with lots of subtle or not-so-subtle nods to Imperial Japan.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:31
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one thing that always stood out was how cold steel was about the effects of industrialization but never had anything involving organized labor pop up
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Feb 7, 2021 22:40
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Idkbutlike2 posted:That kind of stuff is in the minority. However much of it you can list is vastly outnumbered by tons of power fantasy trash with lots of subtle or not-so-subtle nods to Imperial Japan. Is it the minority? Sure. Are they still successful? Sure. SRW's about as niche as Trails. And SRW T sold pretty drat well for the series.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:44
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Agean90 posted:one thing that always stood out was how cold steel was about the effects of industrialization but never had anything involving organized labor pop up Probably because most of Erebonia's industrialization was a result of dictatorship (CS4) backed by an evil curse trying to establish a military-industrial complex.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:45
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FF7, the most popular JRPG of all time, is about how evil capitalism is crushing the poor and destroying the world.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:46
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Idkbutlike2 posted:I remember talking with my friend about this and he said that this kind of stuff isn't really about environmentalism, but rather some old school Japanese philosophy about man vs. nature, i.e., mankind should never try to overstep their bounds and play god with the natural world or bad things will happen. It's kind of like the concept of hubris in western mythology. Man Vs Nature was actually part of my draft process there lol. The Seeds of Joy quest was adorable and good and I cant wait to see Ivan become a Flower Mogul.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:48
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Idkbutlike2 posted:Are you really that surprised by this? It's not even a hot take or anything.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:57
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Clarste posted:FF7, the most popular JRPG of all time, is about how evil capitalism is crushing the poor and destroying the world. Actually, FF7 is about the man vs. nature thing that MythosDragon and I mentioned. Remember, Shinra aren't the main bad guy in the story. They're a secondary antagonist. And their wrongdoing isn't capitalism - it's their transgression of human boundaries and use of a supernatural force that keeps the planet alive. And Sephiroth drives this theme home even further by literally attempting to become a god and destroy the planet with his own might. I think this was the game I discussed with my friend like I mentioned in my prior post. He talked about people in the west prescribing too much of an environmentalist message to it, when it was about the man vs. nature and not overstepping boundaries, etc.
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Feb 7, 2021 23:00
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pretty hosed up that estelle supports the monarchy
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Feb 7, 2021 23:03
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Idkbutlike2 posted:Actually, FF7 is about the man vs. nature thing that MythosDragon and I mentioned. Remember, Shinra aren't the main bad guy in the story. They're a secondary antagonist. And their wrongdoing isn't capitalism - it's their transgression of human boundaries and use of a supernatural force that keeps the planet alive. And Sephiroth drives this theme home even further by literally attempting to become a god and destroy the planet with his own might. I think this was the game I discussed with my friend like I mentioned in my prior post. He talked about people in the west prescribing too much of an environmentalist message to it, when it was about the man vs. nature and not overstepping boundaries, etc. Did you forget the part where they drop the plate on the poors and then talk about how they'll make even more money rebuilding it? Using mako isn't their only sin. Every single human town you visit in the game has been ruined by their greed in some way. Clarste fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Feb 7, 2021 |
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Feb 7, 2021 23:04
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Idkbutlike2 posted:Probably because most of Erebonia's industrialization was a result of dictatorship (CS4) backed by an evil curse trying to establish a military-industrial complex. considering said curse doesn't stop it from being broken it still seems odd that with how cartoonish most of the novel faction is that none of them would piss off their workers and cause a strike at a key factory also the dictatorship doesn't really explain why it never happens. Like you can have any union getting brutally put down by the army but with how much detail every other part of the game has you would think it would come up at least once, even if from background npcs.
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Feb 7, 2021 23:08
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Trails' politics are like pretty simple and often kinda eye-rolly or whatever but unless Falcom only has one writer I don't think that really means it comes from the same place as Ys IX's writing.
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Feb 7, 2021 23:14
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Clarste posted:Did you forget the part where they drop the plate on the poors and then talk about how they'll make even more money rebuilding it? Using mako isn't their only sin. Every single human town you visit in the game has been ruined by their greed in some way. Sure, but their corporate bullshit is secondary to their abuse of Mako. Mako is what's literally killing the entire planet - let alone degrading human society - and Mako is what produced Sephiroth and nearly let him destroy the planet with Meteor. Agean90 posted:also the dictatorship doesn't really explain why it never happens. Like you can have any union getting brutally put down by the army but with how much detail every other part of the game has you would think it would come up at least once, even if from background npcs. I think it's because most of the industrial work in Erebonia is nationalized and not subject to private enterprise, i.e., it's either owned and operated by whatever noble household presides over the territory on which it's done or it's under the Erebonian government and military's control. I forgot, isn't the Reinford Group entirely nationalized?
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Feb 7, 2021 23:22
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I love Renegade, he's so sarcastic
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Feb 7, 2021 23:23
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Idkbutlike2 posted:Sure, but their corporate bullshit is secondary to their abuse of Mako. Mako is what's literally killing the entire planet - let alone degrading human society - and Mako is what produced Sephiroth and nearly let him destroy the planet with Meteor. I don't see how mako has literally anything to do with, say, Wutai's culture and traditions being turned into commodities for tourists. A game is allowed to have more than one theme.
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Feb 7, 2021 23:25
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Idkbutlike2 posted:He talked about people in the west prescribing too much of an environmentalist message to it, when it was about the man vs. nature and not overstepping boundaries, etc. Do you think there's an important distinction here? The central thrust of environmentalism is recognizing that we live in a set of deeply interconnected systems instead of a bubble that is causally isolated from things outside the city limits, and that some actions which look like they produce good outcomes in the short term are actually catastrophic gently caress-ups with a more complete understanding. Which seems quite similar to "mankind should never try to overstep their bounds and play god with the natural world or bad things will happen" only with a few more of the causal links in place in where the older draft had "because it makes a spirit mad" scribbled in.
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Feb 7, 2021 23:29
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Idkbutlike2 posted:Sure, but their corporate bullshit is secondary to their abuse of Mako. Mako is what's literally killing the entire planet - let alone degrading human society - and Mako is what produced Sephiroth and nearly let him destroy the planet with Meteor. Shinra's abuse of Mako is a by-product of their abuse of literally every other resource, including people, that they can exploit through capitalism, because that is what capitalism does. The whole point of Shinra abusing Mako is a blatant as gently caress allegory that straight up says "If there was a literal lifeblood of the planet that existed as an extractable resource, a corporation would find a way to exploit it for its own profit and would do so to the point of its collapse because it values its own profits and its ability to continue making profit above common sense." I figured this out when I was 12. It's not that hard to miss.
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Feb 7, 2021 23:30
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Clarste posted:I don't see how mako has literally anything to do with, say, Wutai's culture and traditions being turned into commodities for tourists. What do you think gave Shinra a massive advantage in the war against Wutai? Materia and Mako. Irony.or.Death posted:Do you think there's an important distinction here? To an extent, yeah. One explanation is rooted in millennia of folklore, religion, and culture, and the other is a secular explanation rooted in science and economics that's really only gained public attention in the last century or so. The longevity of the former explanation probably has a greater impact on people than the latter.
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Feb 7, 2021 23:40
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Amppelix posted:no it's not, it's a stupid take its not a stupid take its a really stupid take
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Feb 7, 2021 23:41
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Idkbutlike2 posted:What do you think gave Shinra a massive advantage in the war against Wutai? Materia and Mako. What I can conclude from this is that you are an idiot and/or arguing in bad faith.
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Feb 7, 2021 23:43
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lmao at this entire page goddamn
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Feb 7, 2021 23:45
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olivier listens to trueanon podcast
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Feb 7, 2021 23:46
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RPGs are a fun way to find out how certain writing circles feel about the poor
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Feb 7, 2021 23:46
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My copy of Ys 9 isn't arriving until like the end of the month and it's already killing this thread.
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Feb 7, 2021 23:51
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Also someone said politics is what people like about trails games and like, when people say that they're referring to political intrigue. Its still ok to be bothered by that stuff but its a bit silly to be like "this is why people like the games in the first place!" Like people are saying they like characters making political moves, not the political ideology of the game.
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Feb 7, 2021 23:55
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What I like about Trails games is the Power of Friendship.
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Feb 8, 2021 00:03
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Snooze Cruise posted:Also someone said politics is what people like about trails games and like, when people say that they're referring to political intrigue. Its still ok to be bothered by that stuff but its a bit silly to be like "this is why people like the games in the first place!" I think that was my post. I was trying to make a dumb joke in regards to hoping Falcom stops talking about politics or whatever. Because like I do think people talking about Ys IX's writing as Falcom's politics is the wrong way of looking at it since as far as I know the Trails games have a different writer from Ys IX and I don't think it's like the entire company that holds these views. Of course, pages later and that's not really what people are talking about but that's what I was trying to get at at the time.
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Feb 8, 2021 00:10
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Idkbutlike2 posted:I think it's because most of the industrial work in Erebonia is nationalized and not subject to private enterprise, i.e., it's either owned and operated by whatever noble household presides over the territory on which it's done or it's under the Erebonian government and military's control. Nationalization can hold it off if it doesn't have a profit motive that causes 74 hour workweeks, but there are irl unions for government workers and some of them wield quite a lot of influence. Teachers for example. I'm not saying rean cold steel needs to stare directly into the camera and say "all wealth comes from labor" whilst headpatting a union boss, but I do think they missed out on a lot interesting plot beats by not putting labor issues in. Agean90 fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Feb 8, 2021 |
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Feb 8, 2021 00:14
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this is just reminding me of the snooty noble character in Ys VIII and how every single conversation about him, without fail, referred to him as a "stuffed shirt"
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Feb 8, 2021 00:17
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