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Ferrinus posted:It's basically insane to read the 3E solar charms and come away thinking solars don't have tight thematics. Excuse me. You need to capitalize the S in Solars, thanks.
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Nov 5, 2015 20:07
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Anyone got a good fillable character sheet for this yet?
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Nov 5, 2015 20:08
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Personally, I think my opinions and preferences are good and right, and those of others are indications of low birth and Flemish sympathies. Those who do not wish to be marked as a craven dog of Flanders would do well to hie to my vision! e: This only applies in cases of disagreement of course; if others agree with me, they are objectively correct, or if otherwise embarrassing, only realizing the obvious. Attorney at Funk posted:Excuse me. You need to capitalize the S in Solars, thanks.
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Nov 5, 2015 20:37
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Nessus posted:Personally, I think my opinions and preferences are good and right, and those of others are indications of low birth and Flemish sympathies. Those who do not wish to be marked as a craven dog of Flanders would do well to hie to my vision! Please stop arguing like a cretin.
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Nov 5, 2015 20:41
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theironjef posted:Anyone got a good fillable character sheet for this yet? The Mr gone ones aren't terrible. Still a first draft though.
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Nov 5, 2015 20:47
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Please stop arguing like a cretin. "Solar thematics are broad and other splats, historically, have had tighter focuses." "No. Solars are cool and good." These are both true statements, not mutually exclusive. Obviously we cannot know the details of how other Exalts are going to get portrayed beyond broad hints and a reasonable guess that DBs probably won't be too much different.
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Nov 5, 2015 20:52
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Also, is there a chance we could get Roadie's charm charts added to the OP? Those were really useful. Here's the link! theironjef fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Nov 5, 2015 |
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Nov 5, 2015 20:59
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Nessus posted:The entire argument is cretinous. That's not what was said. Stop arguing like a cretin.
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Nov 5, 2015 20:59
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Ferrinus posted:That's not what was said. Stop arguing like a cretin. Krysmphoenix posted:Solars are basically Superman in a world filled with people with more defined superpowers. Solars get everything while everyone else gets cooler more defined stuff that is always "weaker". or at least that's how it ended up in 2e. Alien Rope Burn posted:Yeah, they just don't have very tight thematics; they have like at least a half-dozen vague themes they're tied around and so they end up feeling just kind of mushy a result. I wish I had a better word for it, but "mushy" will do. I wish 3e had tightened up their themes, but if wishes were fishes 3e would've given me a school. Crion posted:Actually the Solars are great and own, and exaggerated mortal heroics and narrative flair is a far better hook for game line than anything any other Exalted splat claims as its purview (this is why they're the core splat!). The above poster should feel confident and cool in continuing to play the Solar PCs as designed, and adding the other splats into his or her game as garnish to taste, without feeling as if they are somehow missing out on the experience of Exalted or playing the game wrong. Thank you for your time. Ferrinus posted:It's basically insane to read the 3E solar charms and come away thinking solars don't have tight thematics.
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Nov 5, 2015 21:07
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Nessus posted:Please inform me as to what was actually said then, what I saw looked kind of like this: The word "broad" does not appear in anything you quoted.
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Nov 5, 2015 21:10
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theironjef posted:Anyone got a good fillable character sheet for this yet? If mine (linked in the OP) doesn't do something you need, let me know. If it doesn't do what you need because it's a Google Sheet instead of a PDF, you're out of luck with me, sorry. I don't have Acrobat Pro and don't really want to maintain two different things.
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Nov 5, 2015 21:32
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Crion posted:Actually the Solars are great and own, and exaggerated mortal heroics and narrative flair is a far better hook for game line than anything any other Exalted splat claims as its purview (this is why they're the core splat!). If "exaggerated mortal heroics" was their sole purview I'd agree with you, but it's only one of their themes amongst many. That isn't to say new players shouldn't pick up and play them and enjoy them, mind, that's fine! Have fun! Ignore what I'm talking about. I'm just speaking as a long-time Exalted fan who sees things like "I make meteors fall because I'm psychic" or "I eat spirits with my sword" or "I turn my cat into a mutant monster by injecting them with magic" to be signs that the Rule of Cool tends to be the only real theme the Solars have, or at least "anything that is not obviously claimed as the sole purview of another splat", and even then they generally have a toe in anything anybody else can do.
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Nov 5, 2015 21:43
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Forged from the power of the greatest of gods, the Solar Exalted are the spiritual mimesis of the sun and all it represents: glory, magnanimity, power, relentlessness, inspiration, creativity and ascension. As the sun dominates heaven, so too do the Solars shine brighter than their peers. They are natural-born leaders, scholars, warriors, and builders, brought forth from the greatest heroes of man kind and set on high as the Unconquered Sun’s own champions. The Solar Exalted are the greatest of all the Chosen. Be they benevolent or tyrannical in their courses, the Solars’ natural mastery of the world and their ability to uphold the loftiest principles has earned them the sobriquet of the Lawgivers. THE SOLAR CASTES The Unconquered Sun selected his champions to reflect all aspects of his majesty, and to express the totality of human excellence. PLAY ONE OF THE SOLAR EXALTED IF YOU WANT • to be a reborn hero of legend, forging a new destiny. • to be a master of martial arts, sorcery, or Evocations. • to be a forger of nations, armies, religions, wonders, or even worlds. • to face enemies on all sides, and struggle against an ancient curse. • to be mightiest among the Chosen. Seems pretty clear to me. virgindick fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Nov 5, 2015 |
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Nov 5, 2015 21:47
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theironjef posted:Also, is there a chance we could get Roadie's charm charts added to the OP? Those were really useful. Those are the old ones. They're wrong! Don't use them! These are the current ones: Solars Martial Arts Evocations Alien Rope Burn posted:I'm just speaking as a long-time Exalted fan who sees things like "I make meteors fall because I'm psychic" or "I eat spirits with my sword" or "I turn my cat into a mutant monster by injecting them with magic" to be signs that the Rule of Cool tends to be the only real theme the Solars have, or at least "anything that is not obviously claimed as the sole purview of another splat", and even then they generally have a toe in anything anybody else can do. If you don't want to play He-Man as a Solar then something's wrong with you. I agree with the other points, though. Exmond posted:You don't need to buy Brawl charms. You spend 4 merit points, then spend charms on your marital arts tree. You do need 1 Brawl dot, but yeah, you not only don't need Brawl Charms for Martial Arts but you can't mix them with Martial Arts. The only real exception is Thunderclap Rush Attack, which basically every Solar should take no matter what their actual attack Ability is, because "no gently caress you I'm taking my turn right now" for cheap is incredibly useful. Roadie fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Nov 5, 2015 |
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Nov 5, 2015 21:47
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About the only thing Solars appear to be properly better at as intended is Sorcery (they got Solar Circle), Martial Arts (except for reality breaking Sidereal ones), and Evocations...and I'm not that sure about the that one. Except those happen to be things all Exalts get. Solars just get extra bonuses no one else gets or everyone else gets penalties. or both.
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Nov 5, 2015 21:49
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Mastery at those 3 things is only part of what a Solar is, they don't have a particular gimmick like 'elemental control' or 'shapeshifting', (although Supernals seem to be something like that this edition), but you don't need one to have a tight theme.
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Nov 5, 2015 21:57
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Alien Rope Burn posted:If "exaggerated mortal heroics" was their sole purview I'd agree with you, but it's only one of their themes amongst many. That isn't to say new players shouldn't pick up and play them and enjoy them, mind, that's fine! Have fun! Ignore what I'm talking about. How come there aren't charms for doing any of those three things in the book?
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Nov 5, 2015 21:59
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Ferrinus posted:How come there aren't charms for doing any of those three things in the book? I can't tell if this is a troll post or not.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:00
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Phone posting so not sure if this is going to be a double post. I wish Solars got more attention on their legend. In lore, it's the Solars who are the ones who built the world up as it is, literally or metaphoricallly. They are the ones who get noticed, who shine brightest in the dark times. And as their old legends start to fade, it's time to create the legend anew. The other splats don't quite get that. Lunars are constantly changing shapes and hiding in both nature and the Wyld. They are in the background. Sidereals are deliberately behind curtain maintaining the world and Fate to make everything work right. They are the balance against Solars. Then there's the Dragonblooded, who are too numerous and not varied enough to replace the Solars, though you can't blame them for trying. They weren't meant to rule, they were the force of nature to change the world...until they started ruling themselves. Solars are set to write their own legends again...but mechanically all of that is just fluff.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:01
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Krysmphoenix posted:About the only thing Solars appear to be properly better at as intended is Sorcery (they got Solar Circle), Martial Arts (except for reality breaking Sidereal ones), and Evocations...and I'm not that sure about the that one. I don't see where you're getting that. They have the largest mote pool, the highest excellency, and judging by the example antagonists the strongest charms. They can even learn Sidereal Martial Arts. They are not better at a particular niche, they are just stronger in general.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:03
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People are pretty quick to conflate "theme" and "mechanical gimmick".
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Nov 5, 2015 22:05
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The best games combine theme and mechanics together.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:06
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Krysmphoenix posted:Phone posting so not sure if this is going to be a double post. No it isn't, what are you talking about? They actually, game-mechanically, are the best builders of nations, restorers of old wonders, etc.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:07
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Krysmphoenix posted:The best games combine theme and mechanics together. Right, and its represented by them having charms that are really good at 'writing their own legends again'
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Nov 5, 2015 22:09
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Krysmphoenix posted:The best games combine theme and mechanics together. This is a truism, since the themes of your game are present in its mechanics no matter what.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:10
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Attorney at Funk posted:This is a truism, since the themes of your game are present in its mechanics no matter what. The best games combine stated theme and mechanics together. This is what makes OD&D better than AD&D, even though the basic mechanics are nigh-identical.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:14
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Roadie posted:The best games combine stated theme and mechanics together. I see what you're saying but I don't agree. This position denies the possibility that someone might have an idea that's better than they realize, or that the way a game is played (and therefore its thematic content) can't change over time even absent direct developer intervention. For instance, I don't think most V:tM players are drawn to it for the same reason people were compelled to write it. This is all setting aside my initial point, which is that these conversations have historically betrayed a lack of understanding of what theme even is. Attorney at Funk fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Nov 5, 2015 |
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Nov 5, 2015 22:18
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Attorney at Funk posted:I see what you're saying but I don't agree. This position denies the possibility that someone might have an idea that's better than they realize, or that the way a game is played (and therefore its thematic content) can't change over time even absent direct developer intervention. So wouldn't a version of V:tM rewritten to use the implied themes instead of the originally stated ones be a better book? Call it "Vampire: the Superheroing" or whatever.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:19
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Alien Rope Burn posted:If "exaggerated mortal heroics" was their sole purview I'd agree with you, but it's only one of their themes amongst many. That isn't to say new players shouldn't pick up and play them and enjoy them, mind, that's fine! Have fun! Ignore what I'm talking about. I do not remember any of these Charms from the Exalted 3E core book that I read. Perhaps I missed them; there are a lot of Charms. The most egregious Solar Charm I recall is the Dodge Charm that heals you by retroactively dodging attacks, which seems like it should be the domain of the Sidereals. If this is instead a case of "I have this sword I've been long-sharpening against Exalted 2E Solars and by God I'm going to use it," I have no interest nor any ability to discuss Exalted 1E or 2E. Frankly, as someone who is engaging with this game for the first time in 3E, every time this comes up the lot of you sound deranged.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:20
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Roadie posted:So wouldn't a version of V:tM rewritten to use the implied themes instead of the originally stated ones be a better book? Call it "Vampire: the Superheroing" or whatever. Better in what sense?
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Nov 5, 2015 22:21
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Crion posted:I do not remember any of these Charms from the Exalted 3E core book that I read. God-King's Shrike, p. 340; Carnal Spirit Rending, p. 356; and Saga Beast Virtue, p. 413. Also Deadly Predator Method, p. 414, which is straight-up "you do a dramatic pose and your familiar goes through a flashy transformation sequence". This is all stuff that's in there. God-King's Shrike in particular is one of those things people have been complaining about both for theme (why can Solars make natural disasters happen?) and power level (you can just blow up wherever you want out of chargen) since the leaks were released. Attorney at Funk posted:Better in what sense? More useful for the people using it as a gaming book. On this note I'll note that in my eyes Nobilis 3e is better as a game book than Nobilis 2e (if you can get over the terrible art), since it's way easier to actually play a game with it instead of leaving it on your coffee table to lovingly gaze at.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:28
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Crion posted:Frankly, as someone who is engaging with this game for the first time in 3E, every time this comes up the lot of you sound deranged. They're survivors from the battlefront. Take it easy on them, they all have PTSD.  As someone else new to Exalted this edition, Solars are classical Greek heroes: Powerful, varied, and fatally flawed in dramatic ways. Other complaints are a result of bad mechanics and bad fluff from past books. And sometimes unclear fluff even in this one. Echo Cian fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Nov 5, 2015 |
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Nov 5, 2015 22:28
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Roadie posted:God-King's Shrike, p. 340; Carnal Spirit Rending, p. 356; and Saga Beast Virtue, p. 413. Also Deadly Predator Method, p. 414, which is straight-up "you do a dramatic pose and your familiar goes through a flashy transformation sequence". However, none of that stuff was accurately described in ARB's post. As usual, people complaining about Exalted's core setting assumptions are forced to do so by dissembling.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:32
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It also seems fairly disingenuous to pick three charms out of the book that you think are too over-the-top and declare them bad apples that have spoiled the bunch, and therefore Solars no longer have a coherent theme anymore.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:35
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Ferrinus posted:However, none of that stuff was accurately described in ARB's post. As usual, people complaining about Exalted's core setting assumptions are forced to do so by dissembling. I dunno, they seem pretty accurate to me. God-King's Shrike really is "you think real hard and a meteor falls on a city somewhere". Deadly Predator Method is literally (by its own fluff text) "you flex your magic real hard and it turns your familiar into a super-mutant".
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Nov 5, 2015 22:39
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Ah. The reason I did not remember the Solar being able to reach up mid-combat and call down a meteor strike like a Final Fantasy summon, as implied in that very brief Charm description, is that what the Solar actually does is spend weeks researching a region's geography and then predicts a natural disaster, using a Lore Charm. What an annoying and misleading way of phrasing that. I think it's a pretty stupid Charm to be able to get right off the bat, but that is a function of the stupid Supernal rule, not Solar themes being out of wack. Crion fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Nov 5, 2015 |
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Nov 5, 2015 22:46
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God-King's Shrike is Zhuge Liang's meditations to predict the destructive winds for his fire ships at the battle of Red Cliffs and thus as Solar as anything can be 
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Nov 5, 2015 22:48
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Crion posted:predicts Not really. quote:Through this Charm she reaches realization of a certain calamity that must happen, and her consciousness is recognized, in turn, by the universe. It's, like, cosmic thought power, maaaan.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:50
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Roadie posted:If you don't want to play He-Man as a Solar then something's wrong with you. A lot of defenses to Solars often boil down to "because it's cool!", and man, it is cool, I love being able to do that stuff as a player, but at the same time, it doesn't give me a lot to hang my hat on that I don't get from most other games. And it could be that the new splatbooks come out and the new revisions are so good that it doesn't matter. But at the same time I wish they had a more unique character. And I say that because back in 2001, it was pretty unique to have a game where A) the base splat was designed to be strongest and B) over-the-top fantasy antics in general. But a decade and half on, and a lot of fantasy games out there have a "turn it to 11" knob. Outside the more regressive corners of the poo poo-farming fantasy OSR (and a certain prominent fantasy gamet), getting to play the Most Baddest Ever isn't Exalted's unique purview anymore. So I wish they reflected the more unique elements in their theme. Solars were originally developed with a vague notion of what the other splats would entail, and having them revised to fit into how Exalted's world has developed would be a more interesting take for me. As it is, they're even more sprawling than their 2001 counterparts in theme, which is the reverse of what I was hoping for. Thug Lessons posted:It also seems fairly disingenuous to pick three charms out of the book that you think are too over-the-top and declare them bad apples that have spoiled the bunch, and therefore Solars no longer have a coherent theme anymore. Not really, I'm just trying not to belabor the point. I could have easily pulled out "charm that lets me reincarnate upon death" (which is somehow a Socialize charm), "I'm so close to my boat I speak a water alignment language, or something, I don't even know", or "I craft a whole new spirit out of spirits I've eaten".
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Nov 5, 2015 22:51
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Crion posted:Ah. The reason I did not remember the Solar being able to reach up mid-combat and call down a meteor strike like a Final Fantasy summon, as implied in that very brief Charm description, is that what the Solar actually does is spend weeks researching a region's geography and then predicts a natural disaster, using a Lore Charm. What an annoying and misleading way of phrasing that. I think it's a pretty stupid Charm, but it being available from chargen is a function of the stupid Supernal rule, not Solar themes being out of wack. I could see an argument that if it's more towards the latter, it would be more Sidereal than Solar. However, this does get into a thorny ontological question in general.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:52
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