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Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
My group has a relatively low level of system mastery and have been enjoying the game, including combat, although I think the latter would get real bogged down and boring for the table if we went over our current party of 3. My players needed low-balled encounters at first as they were unwilling to go all in with excellencies on attack and usually passed them up entirely on defense, but now that they've gotten a little more familiar they can easily trounce encounters without a scratch unless I really put the screws on them.

Something that has disappointed me after the dev team's advertised killing of multiple actions is the total ease with which one of my players has shattered the action economy completely by accident. Our Dawn is using Crane Style and if the party works together and huddles up (easy in a group of three) RAW it seems he can throw out as many reflexive defend other to counterattack actions as he likes against every attacker with a combination of Fluttering Cry Of Warning and Crane Style (plus Feather Stirred Arrow for ranged targets) for a really low mote overhead, effectively taking an extra turn of his own on each opponent's turn for just 3m a round once his form is up.

Is there some limitation we're missing here? The whole table has acknowledged it to be a problem but we also don't want to nerf away our combat specialist's niche.

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Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
My table based our game premise on Father Ted (three terminal fuckups from the realm aristocracy are "volunteered" into the immaculate order and exiled to a gloomy island at the rear end-end of nowhere,) so while new to the game and setting they've been enthusiastic about making dubious choices. They got caught with their pants down in Lookshy, and decided that the best way to escape a fortress city full of angry dragonblooded was to start a riot and turn loose a captive abyssal serial killer as a distraction.

Previously they had gone full buddy-cop, handcuffed the abyssal to our socially incompetent dawn sorcerer and tried to pass them off as newlyweds. The medicine supernal twilight took one of the abyssal's arms hostage in an attempt to enforce good behavior, and is probably going to wind up using it in artifact construction instead of giving it back.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
I think a big reason Infernals get people so excited is that Malfeas is a genuinely cool and fairly unique part of Exalted's setting (thanks to Jenna Moran) and 2e problems aside it's understandably fun to have a splat hooked into that. The Underworld is by comparison pretty boring and underdeveloped, which is a shame because I've had players really wanting to interact with it based on the basic elevator pitch of Exalted's dysfunctional not-working-as-intended afterlife but as a GM you've pretty much gotta write in things for them to do and care about there from total scratch, especially for a group that isn't into the "let's see how many big scary things we can turbomurder" play style. Both settings could really use more/better player facing hooks if they're gonna get books dedicated to them.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

Kestral posted:

Speaking of Sidereals, Exalted thread, help me conceive of a sufficiently terrible yet interesting and playable price for Sidereal intervention

  • One of the PCs voluntarily accepts the fated death of an important god or Sid to be transferred to them. Fate being what it is in Exalted that's not a guaranteed death sentence but it's a good excuse to put someone in quite a pickle.
  • Investigate or eliminate a god/Sid/other that is a suspected traitor to Creation (working with whichever antagonist faction is convenient to your campaign) but too politically important and influential for the Sids to accuse without serious repercussions.
  • The PC's are forbidden ("or else") from performing some seemingly harmless mundane action, which doesn't seem important until suddenly, it is!
  • Promise a future child or other loved one of the PC's be given over into Heaven's service. Possibly this person turns out to be fated to exalt as a Sidereal.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

oriongates posted:

My thought was to create a kind of spell-crafting system where players could design these bigger, weirder spells in game (likely with a modest time or resource investment and maybe an extremely minimal XP charge). So, if you want to wipe out a fortress's livestock or horses you don't have to have thought about this ahead of time and bought Plague of Bronze Snakes, you could instead research and craft that spell to unleash in this situation that calls for it.

I've rambled a bit, but is this what sorcerous workings are also designed to do, or are they more the long-term reality-sculpting effects I've mostly seen people talk about?

Depending on how strict you want to be with adjudicating time scales it can kind of be both, the "mainstream" use for sorcerous workings is to do slow permanent reality warping projects, but the way that time and effort scales are reduced by having access to extensive means and dice tricks you can sometimes jump the climb.

For example, wiping out a fortress's ability to sustain livestock in a siege is a feasible subject for a Terrestrial Working, but if you're just a fresh dragon-blooded initiate the time and resources necessary don't make it realistic to do within the space of an ordinary siege (unless your group wants to play out a long term conspiracy to set up the downfall of a fortress, which is a pretty cool plot that would give a party plenty to do!) But if you have heavy investment in Occult charms, sorcerous resources, and initiated assistants, it might be possible to whip up something suitable as a custom local spell with just a gameplay session or so in advance, especially in a warfare situation where you are probably using the "I don't give a gently caress how it works as long as it works" Finesse of 1.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
My players love the Dragon-Blooded book and immediately wanted to switch into playing DBs because everyone universally loathes the bloat of generic flavourless dice trick charms flooding the corebook. Elemental Aura management is a little intimidating (and needs in play reminders) for the less mechanically inclined in my group, but they still prefer it by far to the decision paralysis of purchasing and juggling 8 billion separate dice adders in play. Quote one of my players who isn't all up on Industry Drama: "Why didn't they design powers like this in the main book?" If the new devs keep up this quality it seems we'll get every single other splat being a better play experience than Solars, and while that's a little sad for our bright sons at least it's good news for everyone else.

I'm going to get coloured beads or some other kind of token for players to track aura, that should help. This game would really benefit from some official feelies to help track all the in-game stuff, I know production of them is probably out of Onyx Path's range but I bet they'd sell decently. Kind of weird that was never a stretch goal, but maybe they already decided it wasn't feasible.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
My players don't charop at all and even just basic Crane counterattack spam bogged down our game, that wasn't an obnoxious bespoke combo it was just "I have Crane Form and Fluttering Cry of Warning, our group is willing to use basic teamwork." Players accidentally stumbling into a method of rolling an extra attack for each attack roll made by enemies, with the first 3 charms of a tree, seems ridiculous given that one of the stated goals of the new edition was to explicitly to get rid of multiple attack spam tedium. The corebook is sprinkled with little maddening things like that, where the devs had stated elsewhere that they knew the kinds of problems Exalted tends to have, and yet they repeated them anyways because ???

Game is still fun, and good, but geez.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

EthanSteele posted:

3 motes per person if you have to defend each person only once in a row adds up, unless I'm not understanding the charm correctly.
Fluttering Cry of Warning has a duration of Until Next Turn, you only need to use it once per round. It's extremely efficient. I've asked before if this was intended and had it confirmed.

EthanSteele posted:

If there's so many that it bogs down combat, why are they not a battlegroup and if they're so trivial they have 0 chance to harm you why are you ignoring the writing on the wall and rolling dice and not just going "they are all defeated" after a couple of rounds or them changing tactic after seeing the Invincible Parry Princess effortlessly nullify them?
Because these arbitrary hypotheticals that you just made up weren't what gave us problems? "So many that it bogs down combat" is as little as 2-4 meaningful exalted combatants, which usually means around 2-4 extra attacks for the Crane player to resolve every round (god knows I won't give opponents multiattack charms) for minimal investment. Add in the fact that each time this happens it's in the middle of another character's turn, which breaks up the game flow further. And later Crane charms like Feather Stirred Arrow give you the tools to step around edge cases where you wouldn't normally be able to counter for a fairly cheap cost. When even your player who wanted to play the protective martial arts tank regrets taking the protective tank martial art because he's tired of being responsible for rolling every other combat action, there's a problem.

There's no alternative tactic to "Attacking will always trigger another attack" other than to not run combat encounters (our group theoretically wanted lots of combat!) or to load everyone up with "this attack cannot be countered" charms, which might be fun once or twice but it's an absolute poo poo design and a poo poo thing to do to your player if the only way to run a smooth combat is to specifically negate the gimmick a player invested in. Or I guess you could ask your players to deliberately avoid using good tactics in combat encounters, and if you ever find yourself doing that as a GM you should probably retire.

Our group aren't idiots so that player just got refunded and took a different MA, but that shouldn't have been necessary. The game's core combat engine is really excellent, charms are great fun for players who like crunch, and our non-crunch players are perfectly happy to have bread and butter combos written for them by the others. It's just frustrating that the developers knew multiple attacks are a problem that bogs down combat, explicitly stated that they would be hard to use and limited access as one of their design goals, and then... Just didn't actually do that at all. The Single Point form is another example of trivially accessible constant extra attacks that also add another layer of extra bookkeeping, and it was also a terrible idea.

The game should have been written such that extra actions that require full rolls are always gated behind being the equivalent of daily powers, full stop, no exceptions. It would not have made the game any less crunchy, or combat any less involved and mechanically interesting, or any less cinematic and cool wuxia shenanigans or whatever. There are other ways to explore the design and flavour space of "I attack lots really fast" or "I punish opponents who try to hurt my friends" than to require constant extra rolls.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

EthanSteele posted:

Those "arbitrary hypotheticals" I listed were attempts at solutions to the problem of combat not being streamlined. I also said that some combats do deserve multiple individual opponents and specifically called out meaningful Exalt opponents, just that that scenario shouldn't be every single fight. A long combat every now and then seems fine to me, but that is just my personal opinion. I do know someone that after 8 sessions had 3 players that didn't know how withering attacks worked or what any of their charms did and how to use them so I know it's possible to not get a grasp of it. But that's why you write it down and can just go "ok its 5 and I always do these two charms" or whatever for your basic attacks and defence pools. I wouldn't be able to play at all without doing that because I have real trouble with numbers due to dyscalculia so having my basic stuff written down saves me having to count out on my fingers to figure out 7+5 is 12 every time I do anything.
It's good advice to resolve trivial violence stuff with just a simple roll when it makes sense for the story, and really is one of those things that should have been in a (sorely missing) GM advice chapter. We do that. And I appreciate that you're suggesting alternatives. But these big crunchy combat rules are there to be used for groups that like big crunchy combat, and one of our group goals we talked about when we were setting expectations for the game was cool setpiece encounters with weird gods and monsters and the like. We like lots of combat in our Exalted game, most of the time, and we enjoy using the combat system, most of the time. We don't mind that combat takes a long time in Exalted, for the most part.

It's just too easy in the corebook to stumble into having a powerful option that is absolutely asinine to use in practice because it abuses action economy. Easy access to multiple actions is bad in a system with potential for lots of conditional modifiers to rolls that can take a while to resolve. It's terrible if it's a problem that happens all the time, but it's still bad if it happens some of the time. The solution to this shouldn't be to bend your play around avoiding the bad mechanic. It's to not write mechanical options into the game that aren't a good fit for its system, especially when you already know that they're a problem!

That's good that there's now a Vance ruling that it's only supposed to protect one person, much more sane. It still doesn't solve the fact that (with Crane Form) it's a repeatable easy source of extra action economy. The game still just plain shouldn't have those. And good lord does the charm text not make it clear that it is only supposed to be one parry against one target, even if you ignore the flavour text at the start of the charm that straight up says allies (gently caress you natural language!!!)

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

EthanSteele posted:

Its interesting how the thread can have people complaining that Martial Arts are too strong (Shining Point, Crane Style counters) and have people complaining that a 4 dot merit is too expensive to get access to those tools.

I don't actually think they're too strong compared to the default Solar kit, which is very strong, I think that the easy extra actions they grant bog down the game and can cause unintentional and unwanted spotlight hogging. Important difference!

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
Adapting a version of the Sorcerous Working system for bureaucratic projects seems like such an obvious no-brainer to me. You get differing levels of scale, mechanics for doing things slowly and safely, and mechanics for everything going screwy when your reach exceeds your grasp. At first I didn't really care about the absence of a bureaucracy system because of how easy it was to adapt something that worked for my table, but maybe that was only easy for me because I have personal experience with the management and execution of projects on an organizational level (the absence of which is clearly lacking from more than just the rules text in the core.) But as time went on the vague blandness in the bureaucracy tree really showed compared to the spark that some of the other trees have, and it was a big disappointment for our group.

There is absolutely no reason for a mundane projects system for bureaucracy to not to exist in the corebook and treating it like an impossible quandary unsolvable by mortal minds (a treatment the old developers seemed to frequently give to anything they weren't personally good at figuring out) is just ridiculous. As a bonus you could completely throw out the garbage craft system and have it also use the project system, maybe even use it to give investigation and larceny some meat to hook into instead of "this is the charm you use and now you have a heist." The sorcerous working project rules are one of the best things about 3e and it would really help the game to apply those good rules as a familiar baseline for all long term projects instead of giving each their own different subsystem to track, or in the case of bureaucracy, absolutely nothing.

The objection of "more dots in bureaucracy shouldn't let you make right decisions because that's not what this game is about" seems trivially paper thin. That's like saying "we didn't implement a combat system because people would use it to not get hit in combat." It sounds like they got hung up on one niche player situation that they wanted to avoid at all costs and boxed themselves into a corner not being able to see past it. I get not wanting people to say "I roll bureaucracy to implement mass industrialization and solve poverty forever," but that's something you avoid by having rules for it, just like "I roll socialize to be loved by everyone" is avoided by having a social system!

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

Rand Brittain posted:

I don't think Exalted really wants to work along a model where social change is instituted by "some yellow guy decides to institute reforms and starts rolling dice." For one thing, that's not really what politics feels like, and for another, well... Exalted kind of secretly feels like the main obstacle to you being a good ruler is you.

These are statements that are perfectly fine and make sense. They also don't justify having no mechanical support for the bureaucracy ability. If you're going to have it in the game, substantiate it with mechanical hooks. The sorcerous workings system doesn't just let you "get a weird thing by rolling dice," it creates bounds and expectations of what kind/strength of weird thing you can get from what kind of inputs. A bureaucratic "working" system wouldn't just let you go "insert dice output change society," it would give bounds and expectations of what you can change for how much effort. The means and scale systems in sorcerous workings are great, they allow you to substantiate the kind of resources and infrastructure you have available and compare them to what kind of work you want to be doing. Bureaucratic effort also requires resources and infrastructure to be effective! It's a good model for representing those things with game mechanics! And it's also a great model for mechanically representing limitations and things that go wrong, it encourages players to create specific policy objectives that stem from actually existing things they've established in the fiction, this makes goals more likely to be the tangible "I mobilize my street gang to push out the drug dealers from the Guild" rather than "I remove the drugs from the city," which gives the storyteller better room to create complications borne from the personal choices and foibles of the PCs. Which I agree, is what the game is about.

If the problem of Bureaucracy is strictly that it lets players roll dice to do politics, why does it even exist? Or, if the game lets players roll dice to do everything else, why is it uniquely a problem? The game would feel much poorer without it, because it still wants to give the players mechanical handles for working with bureaucratic institutions. Those are also part of the game's themes! If there's a bureaucracy ability in the game that hooks into the system of "cool demigods are good at some things" then let someone be good at it in a meaningful way. It's fine! Handwaving it away by not defining how the ability works doesn't solve any of the problems that you have. It makes them worse!

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
If Sidereals are going to get 3e's charm bloat treatment then they drat well better pay Jenna Moran handsomely to write more maiden scriptures.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

pork never goes bad posted:

Has anybody articulated the arguments against the, um, fascist position here? I don't agree with it (the fascist position) but I think it's pretty lovely of a bunch of posters to basically just say "it's fascist, therefore bad" without bothering to take any time to say why, especially when the alt right loves calling out fallacies as a way to discount the lived experiences of marginalized people and communities.

Every time I go to fuel up my jeep I politely ask the gas station attendant to describe how a combustion engine works before I will allow them to put gas in my tank, then I go inside and request that the cashier clarify the usage of currency and the requirement to pay for goods and services. Often at this point I have to calmly ask the recently arrived police to justify the existence of laws. I am just being reasonable here, we all know nothing good comes from unjustified assumptions and everyone really should stop getting so upset when all I ask is for them to simply explain themselves.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
Clearly the founding political metaphor of Exalted, written before 9/11 at the peak of American post-Soviet malaise, needs to be updated for contemporary concerns.

The Solars are no longer Great Men, the Solars are Oil. The Bronze Faction are radical ecologists trying to build sustainable infrastructure with green renewables (Dragonblooded,) with the understanding that the old scale of industrial mass production will no longer be possible. Gold Faction reactionaries are climate change deniers. Abyssals/Deathlords are British Petroleum and Enron. Lunars are nuclear advocates, or anarcho-primitivists if you want to be shallow and lazy. Infernals, idk, think Qanon will release secret CIA cold fusion tech next Tuesday or something. Wrap it up folks, time to scrap everything and start 4th edition.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
Most of the core systems (except craft, the pointless bp/xp split, and what the gently caress is going on with Appearance) are genuinely really good, genius even, they make for really good gameplay, and its a testament to Morke & Holden's skill that they managed to gently caress up something so beautiful by bolting too much pointless and condescending clutter on to it.

My players absolutely loved 3e while playing it, despite having to repeatedly stop for 20 minutes to figure out what all their poo poo is doing, and also after our last short campaign never want to play it ever again, because we're too old to put up with having to repeatedly stop for 20 minutes to figure out what everyone's poo poo is doing. The game hates you for playing it, and thats a shame because there's something to love deep down in there. It just fights you every step of the way trying to get at it.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
It always helps to have a better library of basic exalt archytpes with optional addons to just kind of slot in if I need to make one up on the spot. I really like that you include quick reskin advice, a lot of things aren't that hard to reflavour myself during session prep but it's good to have alternatives to reach for quickly during play because things never go as planned and crunchier games like Exalted tend to make that problem harder.

I've found that in play my players prefer exalts to be characters in their own right and only really want go to bat against them as major challenges every other session or so, and in the end while bestiary exalts are useful references I tend to do most of the legwork for making those myself. So I think it would be cool to have even more bestiary stuff for things that can put up an entertaining fight against experienced PCs straight out of the box but don't invite any kind of narrative weight: More weird undead, raksha, demons, sorcerous oddities and the like. Challenging stuff that a competent team can flex their strengths against without taking as much time as a full on brawl/debate/bakeoff with exalt antagonists.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

Transient People posted:

That's just not really true. A solar exalt gets about 15 successes a roll if going at full blast with War. A lunar tops off at like 12. This is before entering Strategies into the equation, at which point the Solar is pretty much guaranteed Ambush (because they get like 17 successes with Immortal Warlord's Tactic), which means all else being equal, a Solar's forces will straight up savage a Lunar's due to them working off a -2 defense penalty. Never underestimate just how stupid the numbers Solars can push out are.

This is entirely correct. Really excited to continue playing the "you have strict numerical superiority but can't actually do anything interesting" splat and show up all these johnny-come-lately chumps with their fancy but weak charms that claim they can do things. Super pumped to throw a bucket of dice at doing something generically boring, knowing that I am statistically guaranteed to beat anyone trying to perform a cool action with actual flavour. Incredibly hyped to flex my invincible dice engine against the hubris of other players/antagonists who are so foolish as to desire interesting results from the game's exception based system. The idiots. The fools. Don't they know that you can't solve social problems with dice? My dice, with the Better Math, will prove the error of their wrongplaying ways. It's roleplaying, not rollplaying, as my unbeatably powerful dice rolls shall now prove. They will rue the day they demanded mechanical support for social change from the game that claims to give mechanical support for creating social change.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

Transient People posted:

Cool snark, but what Crion was saying was specifically that the lunar was going to beat the solar, not outcool them. They aren't, so patented SA Sarcasm (TM) is misplaced here.

I wasn't sarcastic when I said you were correct. The problem is intentionally overcompensating when curtailing the narrative creative space of exception based abilites in the corebook splat, which also happens to be the Highest Numbers Splat, and then making a bunch of other splats that can do things that are narratively more interesting for players, but weaker in the resolution system by System Mandate. You are right. Solars are stronger and can win, and that Solars can do this isn't actually a problem to me, because that is part of the foundation of the game's conflicts. That's cool. It's fine, it's what you play Exalted for.

But it's a serious system problem that Solars not only get to, but can only, win through boring number crunch, while everyone else gets allowed the space of "creatively interesting, at the price of inferior numbers." The more the game is developed by devs without Holden and Morke's weird hangups, the more the holes in this show through real obviously in the corebook. It feels bad for everyone involved. Lunars should get to do cool weird transformative magics that no one else can do, that's part of their design space, that's fine. Dragonblooded, even if weakest at pure dice actions, should get cool unique elemental features. And they do! All of that which has been written for those splats, is great and feels great and fills players and GMs with inspiration and things they want to do in their games.

But when a splat can do things that make a player go "Hey wait a minute, this seems like something anyone should be able to pull off given enough generic Good At Thing mojo," and they can't because the system has deliberately closed off an entire avenue of something anyone should be able to do, then gated exclusively behind charms, those weird groggy restrictions loaded into the corebook really start to hammer down. And that is not so good.

The original devs were so histrionic about preemptively closing off any player agency that they weren't comfortable at being able to personally corral, and the new devs are so refreshingly better, that it clashes harshly wehn Lunars and DBs get to do interesting things which not only should have been corebook enabled but were deliberately excluded because of arcane blindspots and weird forum subculture brainworms. Some splats might have unique advantages that give them an edge at that activity against the Best At Stuff Solars, that's good! But the more the new developers play at what a player can do, the more the poverty of the corebook is revealed. And this highlights fundamental flaws in the corebook's rule assumptions, that will unfortunately hound the edition through its entire lifecycle. And I think that's tragic, because it didn't have to be this way. It could have very easily been better. That sucks! What a shame!

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

TheNamedSavior posted:

Is Exalted actually good? fatal and friends seem to basically say "gently caress NO".

It's really genuinely good, by comparison, even if it is bogged down by problems that by rights it didn't need have to have. The best at what it does, better than many other games which have tried and miserably failed, even if frustratingly not as good as it could have been. Sometimes you gotta drive the car you can buy rather than the car of your dreams, because it turns out that even with all the money in the world that Mustang is still a fussy hangar queen.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

Ferrinus posted:

This is why we need a 3.5E by the new devs as soon as is practical.

It's really an unfortunate and not at all ideal situation for the material realities of publishing a gameline, but I agree with you entirely. The constrained, heavy handed auteur approach of the corebook just did not work. And whether they realized it or not (an unsympathetic take might conclude that they knew exactly what they were doing and smugly played dumb about it,) that's what they wound up doing. Solars in the Vineyard or whatever as a tightly focused narrative experience would be a really cool game, but it should have been an optional side project (like all of Holden & Morke's best work was, no coincidence there) and not the main entry to form the foundation of a new edition for actual players and GMs to play their own campaigns with.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
e: sigh

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
quote is not edit :/

I mean, I agree. Sorry for the ambiguity. By unysmpathetic I didn't mean unreasonable. I'm not sympathetic to them at all and I don't think anyone should be.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

Attorney at Funk posted:

It's the Storyteller's Guide.

Finally, the bad book we think we want.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
when you commission a fantasy artist, the real fantasy is expecting them to follow art direction

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
Frankly I would love to see light Exalted completely diceless, with Nobilis style stats and spending resources/allocating character attributes to boost compared stats for conflict resolution, with charms. Just... Just imagine. No dice tricks to slow down at the table resolution, but you could still go all in on charm investment to not only do things no one else can but also make you more efficient at spending resources to power your niche. It would be really great. Keep motes, keep willpower, keep intimacies, hell even bring back virtues why the gently caress not, just throw out the dice and build a charm structure without them. There's a lot still there and imho doing something lighter but still with dice is squandering the potential of the rest of the big spiraling mess that we love.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

Joe Slowboat posted:

Personally, I do like an element of chance in classic sword and sandals adventure stories, and Exalted is about those as much as anything else. So I'm not entirely keen on diceless, though having a system with minimal dice rolling and a charm economy beyond that seems cool.

I like dice fun too, but I feel like if you're gonna do an alternate build of Exalted, why not go all the way. Maybe I'm a weird one, I love big crunchy dice mechanics, and I love open ended diceless play, but 'light' dice systems like fate and *world just do nothing for me. It's no skin off my teeth that others enjoy them but its an unpleasant lukewarm beige to me.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

Sampatrick posted:

anyone wanna describe what exciting things have happened in exalted world over the last few years? i havent paid attention basically since the core rulebook eventually came out xd

the lead devs were fired for working at a glacial pace deliberately out of spite, and now the new devs work at a glacial pace due to unintentional structural problems. that's about it

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

Rand Brittain posted:

I mean, the old devs worked at the exact same pace that literally every corebook Onyx Path has put out since then has come out at, so the idea that they were doing it out of "spite" gets more bizarre every year.

Spite was a quick punchy summary for all the interpersonal issues and disputes that plagued the book and eventually ended the working relationship. Other contributors have since said they abandoned the project because the social dysfunction was so horrible and that couldn't have helped the pace. And that's before we even get into the gross skeeving on prospective freelancers.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that writers deserve a real actual wage for their labour and I'm perfectly content to see books take as long as they need, I sympathize with the bad situation that so many Onyx Path writers have been in but there were clearly other huge problems that went way beyond the norm and I reserve those sympathies for people who aren't missing stair creeps.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
I feel like this is yet another case where they had a perfectly good Sorcerous Workings project system right there that they could have exported to other subsystems for clear uniform mechanics but

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
A lot of Ex3's fundamental systems are extremely solid, maybe even brilliant and while a lighter rules edition is a good thing to have around I wish that instead 3e had just had like... half as many charms (cull pure dice tricks or merge their function into other charms that do something flavorful) and less edge case subsystems like Sail that really suck and should have just copied the mechanics of better already existing systems. The crunch is mostly great but even in the corebook alone it's already smothered by bloat.

My group absolutely loved playing the core of the game (combat, socializing, sorcerous fuckery and bad decisions) but even my gang of charop loving math psychos got way too bogged down with decision paralysis between 18 billion dice adders, frustrated by poorly thought out natural language ambiguity and having to learn yet another completely unique clunky subsystem each time they wanted to try something new. Sadly we had to move on to something else in the end

I think Ex3 is a lot like D&D 4e: some inspired ideas and great things that came from breaking with some sacred cows, some mistakes from trying new unfamiliar things that I can easily forgive and other mistakes from desperately clinging on to old cruft that I just find baffling and did a lot to bring down the game.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

Ferrinus posted:

Bureaucracy charms that cost 1 Action to use, but give you +1 Action, +1 Coin, +1 Charm, and +1 Buy.

Finally Bureaucracy will assume its rightful throne as the optimal god stat

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

I thought they promised to stop accepting poser art

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

Joe Slowboat posted:

A few examples are:

Luna is consistently referred to with she/her pronouns, playing into a much more stereotypical moon deity concept than Exalted actually has in Luna.

Infernals charms consistently use the concept of damnation and Hell in a way that fits with a Christianized idea of Hell as a place lost souls go, rather than an alien prison for demons.

The 'Virtues' set-up implies strongly that righteousness and doing the right thing are externally knowable in the setting, as does the Infernal caste differentiation, which undermines the way Exalted has generally made historicity more important.

The charmsets are mostly cool! But there's a lot of really classic stuff missing, like She Who Lives In Her Names charms, and that's disappointing.

None of these are dealbreakers for me, but at the same time, the nuance and detail of the setting isn't coming through. Exalted Essence does a very good job of producing a game that can be easily started up and have mixed splats with little to no difficulty, but it's not really concerning itself with developing Creation or the various Exaltations and factions into the framework I enjoy.

you know I had an overarching complaint that regardless of complexity it just doesn't thematically feel like Exalted, but when you put it this way... loving up the themes of Malfeas and the Yozis in the process of failing to fix Infernals is an extremely on brand Exalted thing to do, so at least they've got the meta right.

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007
This is a very cool project and I'm loving the look of it, definitely tempting me to give Exalted another try with our group... if only I didn't already have a "We have to play one of these next" backlog of Glitch, Lancer, & Spire

Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

Pasha posted:

How good are the 3E rules for a two player game (one storyteller and one player)?

2-3 people (storyteller included) is an ideal exalted group number in my personal experience, any more than that and it can get hard to keep individual players focused when they have to wait for 3+ different people's dice trick cascades to resolve etc. Maybe that's just a skill issue but I don't think I'm the only one.

Also seconding the preparation burden, even if a few of your players backbench in combat that creates its own prep cycle of needing to write in specific ways for them to thrive in their other niches with mechanical handles to hang their dice tricks on, and god help you if your player wants to hang their narrative hat on something like Medicine or Sail where you'll be really working overtime to justify the thing they want to be cool at because the system will not meet you halfway.

A one on one game could be quite nice!

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Lambo Trillrissian
May 18, 2007

Rohan Kishibe posted:

My group finished our "short" Force and Destiny campaign in a mere 4 years so I've finally managed to con them into playing Exalted. My Exalted artist character utilising Linguistics charms to imbue effects into paintings isn't a totally nutty idea is it? My storyteller is fine with it, it just seemed to me that Craft didn't really support the idea of painting a fresco so beautiful it makes all who view it weep/scream/revolt against the Realm (delete as necessary).

It's impossible to break anything in the game if you're reskinning already existing mechanics to represent a perfectly sensible application in the fiction that just wasn't anticipated by the weird taxonomy of how Abilities are divided up in the text. Don't sweat it. You shouldn't be shy about poaching stuff from Performance too. It's been a few years since I've ran the game but iirc the rules are a little bit allergic to the idea of persistent magical influence effects as opposed to single use, so if you don't want to homebrew much it will be easier to do "incite a riot against the Realm at the grand unveiling of my painting" and harder to figure out "subtly influence anyone who comes through the gallery, over and over forever." It's a rad character concept and it's fine to be generous in interpreting the rules text to make it work.

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