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It's basically insane to read the 3E solar charms and come away thinking solars don't have tight thematics.
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Nov 5, 2015 20:03
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Nessus posted:The entire argument is cretinous. That's not what was said. Stop arguing like a cretin.
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Nov 5, 2015 20:59
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Nessus posted:Please inform me as to what was actually said then, what I saw looked kind of like this: The word "broad" does not appear in anything you quoted.
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Nov 5, 2015 21:10
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Alien Rope Burn posted:If "exaggerated mortal heroics" was their sole purview I'd agree with you, but it's only one of their themes amongst many. That isn't to say new players shouldn't pick up and play them and enjoy them, mind, that's fine! Have fun! Ignore what I'm talking about. How come there aren't charms for doing any of those three things in the book?
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Nov 5, 2015 21:59
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Krysmphoenix posted:Phone posting so not sure if this is going to be a double post. No it isn't, what are you talking about? They actually, game-mechanically, are the best builders of nations, restorers of old wonders, etc.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:07
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Roadie posted:God-King's Shrike, p. 340; Carnal Spirit Rending, p. 356; and Saga Beast Virtue, p. 413. Also Deadly Predator Method, p. 414, which is straight-up "you do a dramatic pose and your familiar goes through a flashy transformation sequence". However, none of that stuff was accurately described in ARB's post. As usual, people complaining about Exalted's core setting assumptions are forced to do so by dissembling.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:32
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Roadie posted:I dunno, they seem pretty accurate to me. God-King's Shrike really is "you think real hard and a meteor falls on a city somewhere". Deadly Predator Method is literally (by its own fluff text) "you flex your magic real hard and it turns your familiar into a super-mutant". No, it isn't. God-King's Shrike allows you to discover that a meteor will fall on a city. Deadly Predator Method does not produce a mutant, and it's not actually Solar power alone that produces the transformation even if we were to describe that transformation correctly. It's always this kind of bullshit.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:53
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Not really, I'm just trying not to belabor the point. I could have easily pulled out "charm that lets me reincarnate upon death" (which is somehow a Socialize charm), "I'm so close to my boat I speak a water alignment language, or something, I don't even know", or "I craft a whole new spirit out of spirits I've eaten". Incredibly, you also got all three of these wrong. Wow, I wonder why every time you try to formulate a complaint that solar charms are thematically incoherent, you end up lying to do so. Roadie posted:It ain't "discovers it will happen", it's "decides it must happen and so because ~oneness with the universe~ it happens". The realization comes first. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Nov 5, 2015 |
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Nov 5, 2015 22:55
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spectralent posted:I mean, the reason it's like that is because whiny grognards can't accept meta systems to let cool stuff happen in games, despite accepting HP for millenia, but there we go. It was originally totally the "You go and research a doom that could've happened anyway but was unmentioned because we don't seriously expect you to plan everything in the universe" charm. It always used that wording, even in the leak. The Charm is different, though, in that it mentions that the Storyteller decides what the Solar actually discovers, and that the Solar can repudiate herself and discover that she was wrong after all in order to head off the calamity at any point before it actually happens. Frankly, if I wrote the charm I wouldn't have included that final clause, but I guess it's not so terrible to err on the favor of user friendliness here. Crion posted:The Solar ability at work here is not massive telekinetic force, wind-weaving, or calling down poo poo from the Heavens directly; it's the act of prophecy. You know, prediction. Either prophecy falls under the Solar purview or it doesn't (I could see arguments to ceding it entirely to Sidereals, and this being a Sidereal Charm) but if it remains under their purview this seems fine. It's certainly not unthematic because it involves personally dropping meteors on heads. Whether or not it's a meteor isn't even up to the player, but the Storyteller. Prediction via empirical knowledge and calculation is definitely within the Solar bailiwick (there's some Bureaucracy and War that does it, and of course tons of Socialize). Sidereals are the guys you turn to for actual supernatural prophecy, e.g. by casting horoscopes or just asking their bosses for a peek at the timetable.
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Nov 5, 2015 23:04
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spectralent posted:I'm fairly sure in the leak the wording suggested it was just a thing you worked out, whereas in this version it's now a solar working out a thing and making the universe agree, but I'd have to dig it up to quote directly. Have 'em both for comparison: Leak posted:Sage-emperors returned from their long slumber, the Solars’ great beards have shattered their Release posted:Sage-emperors returned from their long slumber, the Solars’ In both cases, the Solar really does research and predict the disaster - she doesn't imagine or decide on it beforehand - but the act of research is what makes the disaster certain and imminent.
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Nov 5, 2015 23:09
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Don't worry about replying to my posts, it isn't worth your time and it certainly isn't worth mine. I don't expect you to have the courage or ability to defend yourself, I just want to make sure no one else is fooled. You might as well be complaining that Dragon-Blooded are encroaching on Alchemical territory because wow, this charm gives you a built-in flint and tinder box! This other charm is pretty much just an arm-mounted tesla coil!
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Nov 5, 2015 23:10
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If I actually wanted to sit down and prove that Solar charms were mechanically incoherent, I'd gravitate immediately to this one:Harm-Dismissing Meditation posted:Once per scene, the Lawgiver may deny the very wounds Taken literally, this would appear to describe warping the flow of time itself and rewriting the past in order to transfigure the present. The thing is, not only is that outside the Solar skillset in general, it also directly contravenes that sidebar discussing the few things that no magic in creation can ever do under basically any circumstances. So... you shouldn't take that flavor text literally, the same way you don't need to take "the Solar draws a shield against her doom." to mean that Brawl charms allow you to materialize a physical, handheld shield. HDM is a calisthenics routine.
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Nov 5, 2015 23:22
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Alien Rope Burn posted:hahahahaha what are you even- "Liar?" "Fooled?" I'm not wrong just because you're your first victim.
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Nov 5, 2015 23:24
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Nessus posted:You could raise questions of, how come they put it that way, instead of "the Solar guts up and takes a round to do some Hamon breathing, and at the end of it she discovers it was mere scratches! Mechanically, this allows a Solar to undo some damage she took once per scene." Being able to gut your way through some grievous injuries once per scene seems suitably Solar; the Sidereal equivalent would probably look more like scraping off the past damage, the Lunar one would probably be straight up regeneration (and might even be a little stronger or not have a per-scene limit), the Abyssal one would just be shouting "USELESS! USELESS!" really loud and not giving a gently caress because you're an Abyssal, etc. I mean, my guess would be "they'd already written eight hundred other charms and were really tired". The ultimate point, though, is that you actually have to deliberately inflict tunnel vision on yourself in order to actually get stuck on this stuff; it doesn't work if you stop assuming your conclusion before you do your research. Solars basically have two tricks; one is being really skilled, and the other is having an anima that's potentially forceful, and energetic, while being invisible and intangible by default. That stuff gets a lot of stuff done, but it's in the exact same way that some Sidereal charms use the threads of fate as a metaphor and other Sidereal charms use the threads of fate as physical objects you entangle stuff with.
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Nov 5, 2015 23:34
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Unfortunately, that's mostly true for the combat charms. For noncombat abilities the flavor text frequently is the charm, or at least most of the charm.
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Nov 5, 2015 23:39
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Anyway, I'd like to just see them tightened up to... like... Leadership, Warfare, Civilization, Sunlight, and Smiting (lacking a better term for the last one, defense of creation, whatever). It's still really broad, and it ain't gonna happen, that's just what I'd like. Like, if you tie their charms to one of those themes, it becomes more interesting to me. Survival through the lens of Civilization would theme them around cutting trails into the wilderness by walking or domesticating animals by their presence. Stealth through Civilization might mean they go unnoticed by changing roles (instead of being able to change into anyone, for example), or through Sunlight might mean a distracting glare from the sky. The Leadership and Civilization themes would make them terrifying not because they're the Most Dangerous Soldier, but by their ability to rework and guide society and make those under them more. Granted, they already encompass some of this, but it'd focus them somewhat. That's not actually tighter than the existing domains of Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, and Bard. It just makes Solars less about prowess and heroism and more about, like, a particular after-the-fact aesthetic. But Solar barbarian warlords and bloody-handed assassins and wilderness sages should be encouraged and supported the way they now are.
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Nov 5, 2015 23:55
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The thing about the incredible breadth and flexibility with which the Solar charmset applies the concepts of A) being really skilled and B) having really powerful chi is that it's an absolute prerequisite for the kind of variety and replayability that the best Exalted splats sport. Consider what are probably the two best non-Solar or Solar-level charmsets: the Sidereal charms and the Alchemical charms. The lengths to which Sidereal charms stretch "fate" and the Alchemical charms stretch "implanted tech" are basically unbelievable, but the result is that after you've read the Alchemicals book you've got like fifty character ideas rather than five. If you tried to make sure that Sidereals could only use fate in sneaky and bureaucratic ways, or that Alchemical plasma bolts only dealt damage to targets with the Bourgeois tag, then you'd drift closer and closer to having something as restrictive and one-note as the Lunars.
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Nov 6, 2015 00:20
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The thing about those super-familiar charms is that they aren't about filling your familiar with warping wyld-energy or something, they're about unlocking your familiar's latent abilities the same way that completely normal Survival-based training actions do. It's just that within the heart of every kitty cat lurks a ferocious dire sabretooth, and someone in tune enough with the wild can coax that primal superpredator out. I WOULD have liked to see a trailblazing charm or two, mind.
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Nov 6, 2015 01:20
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Alien Rope Burn posted:All I mean is that "masters of mortal abilities" gets awfully broad, So does "has implanted cyber-augs". See above; every Exalt's basic knack is stretched as far as possible in twenty different directions because each Exalt type has to be able to sustain an entire party of player characters AND cast of allies and opponents. quote:...especially when "magic" and "magic punches" are included on that list, and then "internalizing the powers of magic items" is tacked on at the end because I guess they didn't cover enough fields already. (Then there's the "learn powers from spirits" thing too, but that's only that 20%.) And that's without getting into everything that gets piled on because of the sun and law themes on top of that, shooting lasers, thinking chaos into order, etc. Those are all just extrapolations of mastering mortal abilities. For some reason, no one complains when Sidereal mastery of "fate" includes dodging every potential consequence of someone else's action AND becoming in all was undetectable AND making a sea voyage go through a parallel dimension AND turning the guy who runs the food cart you visit every morning into a short-lived dragon mount.
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Nov 6, 2015 02:02
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theironjef posted:Is that a good thing? That sounds like the endgame is "Because it's a game system, every exalt has access to every narrative tool, and the key differences are A. The visuals change, and B. Solars are the best." But they don't have access to every narrative tool. You'd never confuse the Sidereal and Solar charm sets, or the Alchemical and Solar charm sets, even though both Alchemicals and Solars have ways to get more persuasive, ways to make lots of extra attacks, etc.
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Nov 6, 2015 02:16
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Sidereals have odd themes but it's all wound around very specific mythology tied to their patron gods. They have material tied to Fate in their charmset because their gods are tied to Fate, but that's different from having "Fate" as an overriding theme. Their direct Fate tie-in isn't through their charms, but their Astrology. They're also one of the most thematically bound of the Exalt types given they have perhaps the shortest charmset as well as a fixed charmset, so they're the polar opposite of Solars in that regard unless 3e changes that. That's not true. "Fate" absolutely is the overriding mechanism behind Sidereal charms - just look at their descriptions from either edition. You reach out and fiddle with something's fate, or you tie something's fate to something else's fate, or you cast actual threads of fate into your opponent's face, or you exchange something's fate with something else's. That's the basic method of Sidereal action - they skillfully and cleverly bend fate, which turns out to allow them to drag cities from place to place, cause crafting projects to complete themselves unaided, etc. EDIT: And Sidereals have the charmset that's most explicitly limited and in-setting by their superiors; like I keep saying, look to Alchemicals for an even more immediate analogue. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Nov 6, 2015 |
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Nov 6, 2015 02:47
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The fact that it isn't a spell is the whole point. You aren't using sorcery. You just find out what was going to happen all along.
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Nov 6, 2015 03:44
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I don't think there's any problem with a charm that's specifically for predicting->unleashing disasters. Like, it's not a problem with Excellent Strike that you can't use it on the Defend Other action.
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Nov 6, 2015 04:09
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theironjef posted:Except for where there's a melee charm at the same tier that can be used for defense. I guess there's nothing stopping players from creating a God-King's Lark (Joystar Celebrations) equivalent charm though. Right. That said, I don't actually think an inverse version of God-King's Shrike should exist for thematic reasons; disaster should befall you on its own, but you should actually have to struggle for good fortune. In general, I think GKS stands well on its own. Thesaurasaurus posted:Given that it's pretty clearly meant as an allusion to Old Testament prophets, I'd honestly prefer if God-King's Shrike was about flexing them God-King muscles and asserting your holy will upon reality (as with Wyld-Shaping Technique etc) rather than about being Disaster Movie Professor Guy. That guy is Disaster Movie Professor guy, just... not played for laughs. There's a definite implication that while the disaster isn't literally caused by your character's machinations, it's definitely like, legitimated by them; I think that, in-character, a solar loremaster who's enraged by the depredations of the Realm and, heart full of hate, begins a feverish campaign of research into the Blessed Isle's history for any sign that the Realm might fall suffer bad luck soon kiiiinda knows what they're doing. Like, there's a reason Wyld-Shaping Technique is in Lore, not Occult - it's a statement about the setting itself, that conscious understanding of the world is one of the things that keeps the world stable.
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Nov 6, 2015 04:23
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Boing posted:I don't see a problem with Solars having no specific theme, because it lets you and your friends create characters who are interesting and different from one another. Roadie posted:For my part, I like "Solars as kind of mushy and broadly themed", The thing is that they're not. "Allows for a lot of different characters" is not an indication or corollary or whatever of "has no specific themes". In fact, it's quite the opposite! You can probably come up with a dozen original and setting-appropriate solars in as many five second intervals. Can you do the same with a prompt like "superheroes"? "Monsters"? "Wizards?" What's helping you out is that the solars' themes of excellence, heroism, and solar divinity are well-chosen and, more importantly, well-supported. In the same way, it's very easy to come up with entire platoons of Alchemicals, or Awakened mages, or whatever. The basic idea that having a coherent theme necessitates having lovely, limited character options is absurd.
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Nov 6, 2015 20:57
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Dammit Who? posted:God it's so amazing how bad Korra was I think the most amazing thing about Korra is not how bad it was, but how perfectly analagous to 2E's badness Korra's badness was. In both cases you have a franchise about mythological heroes, and then a followup that does its absolute damndest to explain, demystify, and then depict genre-savvy characters tinkering with and manipulating all of the original's mythological elements, such that what used to be a sacred hero becomes a kind of weird, redundant alien invader that clever people just need to plan around.
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Nov 6, 2015 21:01
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Thesaurasaurus posted:Please share this insight with whomever is writing 3E Abyssals and Lunars, TIA I don't even think Abyssals were particularly limited, although their 2E charmset was certainly a bit more one-track than their 1E charmset. We don't really need to worry about there being only one or two distinct Abyssal characters for the same reason we don't need to worry about there being only one or two distinct Vampire characters. There's just too much good stuff there before anyone even puts pen to paper.
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Nov 6, 2015 21:02
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Nessus posted:I am sad because I thought this was the Captain Planet intro for a while. I don't agree with your usage of "limited" here, because even in 2E there was a load of available variety in terms of what your guy looked like, how they operated, what they were good at, how their skills manifested... yeah, each of the dozens of characters you could make with the Abyssals book would be a blight on all life, but, hell, every Solar you ever make will be a reborn hero. Abyssals never had the problems Lunars had where like, there just weren't enough varied, compelling charms to allow for even a single, small gaming group to generate a roster of meaningfully distinct characters while actually leaving room for NPCs, future games, etc.
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Nov 6, 2015 21:16
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In general, actually consolidating skills and charm trees seems like more trouble than it's worth at this stage. You should just figure out which specific player-facing problem you're trying to solve (not enough skill dots, for instance) and correct that directly.
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Nov 6, 2015 23:31
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If I was going to sit down and actually do real rules-writing work on 3E it would definitely be to streamline and combine the crafts/bureaucratic projects/sorcerous projects systems.
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Nov 6, 2015 23:39
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Thug Lessons posted:The bureaucratic projects system basically doesn't exist. It's a huge section with lots of advice and no rules. That's why it'd be cool if you could at least borrow a little bit of colored crafting xp/sorcerous projects means+scope for it.
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Nov 6, 2015 23:48
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One thing that really threw me is that Fivefold Bulwark Stance says it eliminates "certain penalties", and there's a sidebar on the adjacent page which tells you which penalties those actually are.
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Nov 7, 2015 09:48
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Did anyone, in that thread, post the flat BP advancement rules I've repeated a couple time in these very threads?
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Nov 10, 2015 23:15
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Attorney at Funk posted:You're so vain, you probably think this dug-in refusal to acknowledge design problems is about you. Come on, let's be real: it is. But if there's a bunch of rpg.net Exalted players that really wants some way to do flat advancement but is convinced it's so hard that developer input is needed...
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Nov 10, 2015 23:20
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I would say that the most obvious sign that 3E is a Ship of Theseus based on 2E is the totally arbitrary numbers used in Solar essence pool calculations.
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Nov 11, 2015 00:25
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I don't think dumping the current XP mechanic goes far enough, honestly, you still have things like paying more for X ability or X charm, which is just a cue for maximizers to look up the minimum out-of-caste/favored stats they want, ever, and to buy them with their starting stack. Nope, easily taken care of. You just declare that skills from 1-3, essence 1 charms, and terrestrial spells are all bought at in-caste BP costs. If you care a lot you can just say it's only the first (10 or 15 or whatever) of those that get the discount, but I wouldn't bother.
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Nov 11, 2015 01:12
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Nessus posted:I can't actually figure out what value or fun is being gotten out of steadily increasing geometric costs for some things and a different progression for other things. Even leaving aside char-math optimization it seems, if you think about it, actually more complex than GURPS, and when you can say that about something I would say something has hosed up along the road. If you make the mistake of thinking that experience points exist in-character and actually represent accumulated wisdom or effort on your character's part, you might then be fooled into thinking that your third dot of Strength was more difficult to achieve than your second even though it already took half again as long as per the training times chart.
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Nov 11, 2015 01:22
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My mission is complete.
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Nov 11, 2015 01:43
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Check out what I scared Holden into doing:Holden posted:Man, bonus points are really not calibrated to work well for advancement.
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Nov 11, 2015 01:55
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There's only one problem with that suggestion: you still need to make people only buy story merits, or only buy purchased merits in chargen with their allotted dots, or give 'em separate pools for each. Otherwise it looks perfectly workable, if a bit complicated - I'm not sure if I'd actually prefer it over just using BP.
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Nov 11, 2015 02:09
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