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Bonster posted:But... but people farmed geese. Did they not draw parallels between the geese that hatched on their farms and the wild geese? They did. As mentioned above, the pope didn't buy it. A couple decades after that, the German cleric and scholar Albertus Magnus rubbished it on that ground exactly. However, then as now, the mere fact that something is obviously bullshit if you take a look at it does not stop the credible and cynical from repeating it.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:03
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That sounds like someone was trying to pull a fast one for lent more so than actual belief. Kind of a ye olden "tomatoes are a vegetable" thing.
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Jul 19, 2017 01:05
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Admiral Bosch posted:That was a really cool read, thank you. His books are great: https://www.amazon.com/Opium-Fiend-...QAD1YD68P89K4PV
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Jul 19, 2017 01:09
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Peanut President posted:That sounds like someone was trying to pull a fast one for lent more so than actual belief. Kind of a ye olden "tomatoes are a vegetable" thing. Alexander von Humbolt posted:Continuing to descend the river, we met with the great herd of chiguires which the tiger had put to flight, and from which he had selected his prey. These animals saw us land very unconcernedly; some of them were seated, and gazed upon us, moving the upper lip like rabbits. They seemed not to be afraid of man, but the sight of our dog put them to flight. Their hind legs being longer than their fore legs, their pace is a slight gallop, but with so little swiftness that we succeeded in catching two of them. The chiguire, which swims with the greatest agility, utters a short moan in running, as if its respiration were impeded. It is the largest of the family of rodentia or gnawing animals. It defends itself only at the last extremity, when it is surrounded and wounded. Having great strength in its grinding teeth, particularly the hinder ones, which are pretty long, it can tear the paw of a tiger, or the leg of a horse, with its bite. Its flesh has a musky smell somewhat disagreeable; yet hams are made of it in this country, a circumstance which almost justifies the name of ‘water‐hog,’ given to the chiguire by some of the older naturalists. The missionary monks do not hesitate to eat these hams during Lent. According to their zoological classification they place the armadillo, the thick‐nosed taper, and the manati, near the tortoises; the first, because it is covered with a hard armour like a sort of shell; and the others because they are amphibious. The chiguires are found in such numbers on the banks of the rivers Santo Domingo, Apure, and Aracua, in the marshes and in the inundated savannahs of the Llanos, that the pasturages suffer from them. They browze the grass which fattens the horses best, and which bears the name chiguirero, or chiguire‐grass. They feed also upon fish; and we saw with surprise, that when scared by the approach of a boat, the animal in diving remains eight or ten minutes under water. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaver#In_dietary_law Platystemon has a new favorite as of 01:29 on Jul 19, 2017 |
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Jul 19, 2017 01:27
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Pulling a fast one on religion is a time-honored tradition, from eating every land animal and bird you could vaguely justify as sufficiently waterlike to the monasteries preaching temperance while funding themselves with beer sales.
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Jul 19, 2017 02:36
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The Pope didn't object to their reproduction by sprouting from driftwood, he only said their unusual origin didn't make them non-birds. The myth makes sense when you consider nobody had at that point seen a barnacle goose breeding, since they left for the Arctic during the breeding season, but people frequently saw them around barnacles.
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Jul 19, 2017 07:11
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steinrokkan posted:The Pope didn't object to their reproduction by sprouting from driftwood, he only said their unusual origin didn't make them non-birds.
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Jul 19, 2017 08:49
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Yes! And the first one of these birds, a stork from 1822, is still preserved in a museum (and there have been around 20 more arrow storks since then): Old theories of what happened to birds when they "disappeared" include: - Hibernation, possibly under the ocean - Metamorphosis between summer and winter forms of birds - Metamorphosis into mice and other land dwelling vermin - Migrating to the moon https://labandfield.wordpress.com/2013/11/03/bird_migration/ According to this article, it was for instance unknown where the relatively common chimney swifts migrated until the 1940s.
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Jul 19, 2017 09:03
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I'm just imagining some african dude really pissed off because not only did he not get the bird but he lost a goddamn arrow.
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Jul 19, 2017 09:23
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What's really amazing is that the stork somehow manage to fly all the way back from central Africa to northern Germany with a loving arrow driven through its neck 
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Jul 19, 2017 09:28
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System Metternich posted:What's really amazing is that the stork somehow manage to fly all the way back from central Africa to northern Germany with a loving arrow driven through its neck Some whales have carried harpoon tips in them for more than a century.
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Jul 19, 2017 09:38
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Grand Prize Winner posted:I'm just imagining some african dude really pissed off because not only did he not get the bird but he lost a goddamn arrow. I'm imagining him high-fiving his buddies and laughing about how loving rad that looked.
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Jul 19, 2017 09:39
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steinrokkan posted:Old theories of what happened to birds when they "disappeared" include: Well, if this isn't something that'd make for a great fantasy setting I don't know what is.
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Jul 19, 2017 09:45
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Aesop Poprock posted:People were really loving dumb in the past but I'd bet he was just exaggerating like most old school explorers to make his experience seem more impressive Ignorance or naivety are not the same as being dumb.
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Jul 19, 2017 10:40
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Nessus posted:Wasn't there some animal where the idea of migration only came up after someone found one coming back with an African arrowhead in its leg? Oh, indeed: Alhazred posted:And migration was only accepted as fact when someone in Africa tried to kill a stork: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfeilstorch
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Jul 19, 2017 12:21
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Shifty Nipples posted:Ignorance or naivety are not the same as being dumb. People stood by Galen's theories about anatomy even when they were faced with overwhelming evidence that he was wrong, so yeah, people were dumb. Note that I'm not saying that people have stopped being dumb.
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Jul 19, 2017 12:23
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Alhazred posted:People stood by Galen's theories about anatomy even when they were faced with overwhelming evidence that he was wrong, so yeah, people were dumb. Note that I'm not saying that people have stopped being dumb. The person I quoted just sounded like they were following the idea that people in the past were stupid and became less stupid over time when in reality we know more than we did in the past which has nothing to do with intelligence. By the way this thread is pretty great so thanks everyone.
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Jul 19, 2017 12:30
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Shifty Nipples posted:The person I quoted just sounded like they were following the idea that people in the past were stupid and became less stupid over time when in reality we know more than we did in the past which has nothing to do with intelligence. It was a joke post where I was exaggerating our ancestors stupidity for comedic effect
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Jul 19, 2017 12:48
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steinrokkan posted:- Metamorphosis between summer and winter forms of birds  : “this isn’t even my vernal form” 
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Jul 19, 2017 12:54
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Aesop Poprock posted:It was a joke post where I was exaggerating our ancestors stupidity for comedic effect Trump's face makes me angry, that's my excuse.
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Jul 19, 2017 13:01
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Shifty Nipples posted:Trump's face makes me angry, that's my excuse. Have you tried "Make Trump Kittens Again" or whatever it's called? Helps me a lot. I'm all prepared to get annoyed and then see a kitten instead, reminds me that there are better things in life and it's not worth getting angry right now. Saves me a bit of stress. Bonus, kittens.
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Jul 19, 2017 13:33
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Suspect Bucket posted:Have you tried "Make Trump Kittens Again" or whatever it's called? Helps me a lot. I'm all prepared to get annoyed and then see a kitten instead, reminds me that there are better things in life and it's not worth getting angry right now. Saves me a bit of stress. Bonus, kittens. I don't want to stop being angry at him until there isn't any reason to be angry.
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Jul 19, 2017 13:54
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Bobby Digital posted:
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Jul 19, 2017 23:24
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Bobby Digital posted:
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Jul 19, 2017 23:25
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Shifty Nipples posted:Trump's face makes me angry, that's my excuse. I didn't buy this dumb rear end thing for myself but this is my life now I guess
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Jul 20, 2017 00:45
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chitoryu12 posted:Pulling a fast one on religion is a time-honored tradition, from eating every land animal and bird you could vaguely justify as sufficiently waterlike to the monasteries preaching temperance while funding themselves with beer sales. That one actually doesn't always lead to hypocrisy. Temperance means a lot of things and can vary depending on who you ask; some interpret it as "moderation." To those drinking or making booze is fine even if you're a monk. So long as you don't over-indulge and never get drunk it's fine to down a few beers here and there. Temperance meaning total abstinence from alcohol was more of an American thing; Europe has a lot of drinking cultures and Europe loving loves alcohol. The rules of course varied; sometimes it was wine that was considered sinful while beer was OK because it was made of bread and water. At the time people mostly drank short beer anyway so it was pretty hard to actually get drunk off of it. It was actually an important part of the diet over much of Europe; it was good calories and didn't dehydrate you because it was pretty weak compared to what we think of as beer today. The Bible also mentions alcohol in various flavors here and there and Jesus made some wine so it can't be that bad. I don't think the Catholic Church has ever come out and said "all alcohol = bad so stop that." Drunkenness and a lack of self-control in the face of drink was obviously bad but Christian views on it really do vary a lot. The generality is "just don't overdo it, k?"
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Jul 20, 2017 03:56
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Historical_Video.mp4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-Lvv1f5Qu4
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Jul 21, 2017 08:12
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Cults are weird things, and Christian cults are absolutely no exception. In the fourth and fifth centuries, Christianity had spread into the Maghreb region of Northern Africa, on the very edge of the failing Roman empire. Normally small cult-sects of religions aren't much to write home about, having similar practices to their over-arching religion with a few variances that set them apart that often have been facilitated by cultural or regional norms. The first five centuries of Christianity were a very diverse period in which competing groups battled it out over all manner of doctrinal and political issues. One such group was the Berber Donatists sect, a branch of Christians that was founded on the basis of an extremely complex stand that generally extolled the virtues of Martyrdom. Within this sect was a radical, fanatical group called the Circumcellions (they called themselves agonistici - "fighters (for Christ)"). The Circumcellions ("Guys who hang around villages") were mostly lower-class peasants, many of whom were illiterate. I have read several descriptions of the Circumcellions and they are at best described as "rustic enthusiasts" and at worst "the Roman equivalent of trailer trash". Generally the only job these guys had was the one they gave themselves - being Circumcellions. The Circumcellions had thought long and hard about the 'path' to heaven, and realized that there was a loophole. It was clear that the Bible gave a straight path to heaven if one is a martyr, and so martyrdom became the sole aspiration of the Circumcellions, which they regarded as the ONLY Christian virtue - thus rejecting the primacy of chastity, sobriety, humility, and charity. Because Jesus had told Peter to put down his sword in the Garden of Gethsemane, the Circumcellions avoided bladed weapons and used clubs. They took to fashioning absolutely massive wooden clubs, which they called "Israelites", and would hide along well-traveled trading paths waiting for unwary travelers to come along. When they saw a victim, they would jump out and beat them with their clubs while shouting "Deo laudes!" ("Praise God!"). The goal was not to take anything, not to kill the person - only to beat and annoy them enough to goad them to fight back, and hopefully, kill them and thus make them a martyr. It was the ultimate way into heaven, after all, and it was considered a special blessing if the person doing the killing was a member of the church or any variety of town official. Theodoret says a Circumcellion was accustomed to announce his intention of becoming a martyr long before the time, in order to be well treated and fed like a beast for slaughter, and also relates: Theodoret of Cyrus posted:A number of these fanatics, fattened like pheasants, met a young man and offered him a drawn sword to smite them with, threatening to murder him if he refused. He pretended to fear that when he had killed a few, the rest might change their minds and avenge the deaths of their fellows; and he insisted that they must all be bound. They agreed to this; when they were defenceless, the young man gave each of them a beating and went his way. For those that had such setbacks, or just generally weren't able to go out and provoke attacks, other methods of martyrdom was available. Drowning in the River Chotts and mass-cliff-jumping were popular choices, and those and truly dedicated members would burn themselves at the stake. Others interrupted courts of law and verbally provoked the judge so that he would order their immediate execution (a normal punishment at the time for contempt of court). There are even mentions in Catholic historical texts that say they would go so far as to just pay someone to kill them by threatening to kill someone passing by if the person refused. The one method that was completely off limits and most definitely not the way to heaven was hanging, as that was the way Judas killed himself, and they certainly did not want to be associated with him. They were never reported as starving to death, as that would take too long. If a member did succeed in offing themselves they were honored by the living Circumcellions as the ultimate in martyr, having their grave tended to and venerated, often becoming a stop on a pilgrimage path. It wasn’t just random attacks trying to provoke suicide-by-traveler that the Circumcellions were known for. The order absolutely hated Rome and the authority figures that had been officially sanctioned by the church. They also hated slavery, and soon became widely hated by slave owners not only because of their insistence that slaves had rights, too, but because of their seemingly random attacks that freed slaves and gave them the chains that now secured their former masters, often recruiting those slaves into their cause. At the beginning, other Donatists saw them as the selfless martrys they so badly wanted to be, but as the movement got more and more out of hand, the Circumcellions became increasingly unpopular. Righteous indignation turned into an increasingly violent crime wave fueled by lust, religious ecstasy, and not a little bit of alcohol. Donatists disavowed the Circumcellion movement in short order and strictly forbade cliff jumping, yet crowds of Circumcellions and their supporters would flock to the streets to honor the cliff-jumpers' deaths. Donatism as a whole was officially outlawed by the mainstream church in A.D. 411, and was all but dead for the Circumcellions. They roamed the land armed with their massive clubs, refocusing their ire on anyone who belonged to the more mainstream branches of Christianity. They stole from the church, blinded clergy, and tortured those who didn’t believe as they did, all the while proclaiming that they were the only true form of Christianity. They were known to forcibly rebaptize any clergy they caught hold of as Circumcellion. The Circumcellions eventually suffered the same fate that befalls most suicide cults -- loss of members due to excessive death. Contributing factors included the anarchist tendencies of attacking both religious and civil authority figures, which demanded a forceful government response, combined with the pressures that arise from persecuting the wealthy, combined with their predilection for hurling themselves off cliffs in the absence of any other way to die. It was in response to the wacky shenanigans of the Circumcellions that St. Augustine wrote the first major theological justification for the use of violence by Christians -- so that they could defend themselves against the club-wielding morons. If you're Catholic, you can thank the Circumcellions for the doctrine of the "just war" and your inability to invoke "conscientious objector" to get out of military service. That Damn Satyr has a new favorite as of 20:06 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 24, 2017 01:23
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I can only wonder how much of that was written by the winners, and how much sounds too silly to make up.
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Jul 25, 2017 18:48
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That drat Satyr posted:Cults are weird things, and Christian cults are absolutely no exception. Saw this posted in the Nier LP. Can I see sources, this is hilarious and I want to share it elsewhere.
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Jul 25, 2017 20:04
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Inescapable Duck posted:I can only wonder how much of that was written by the winners, and how much sounds too silly to make up. Not so much the 'winners', but definately by the people in power. This paper is a pretty decent discussion on how and why we remember the Circumcellions the way we do: https://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/shaw/020603.pdf tl;dr: Augustine decided to include all the stuff they were doing into his list of heresies, which was then parroted by several contemporaries. Needless to say, they weren't super popular after that. That Damn Satyr has a new favorite as of 20:16 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 25, 2017 20:08
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In 1842, US Navy Commodore Thomas Catesby Jones accidentally conquered California. He had thought that the US was already at with Mexico (they weren't), and that Britain would try to take over California in the mean time (they didn't). So he sailed a bunch of ships into Monterey Bay, which was the nearest harbor and demanded they surrender at 9 AM the next day. Which they did. And it turned out that Monterey was the capital of Alta California, that Alta California had kinda-sorta declared independence from Mexico in 1836, and that because Mexico gave exactly zero shits about Alta California, they just let California do their own thing. So they explain this all to him and that the US and Mexico weren't at war and so he says "whoops my bad" and leaves.
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Jul 27, 2017 21:29
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When Cambyses II (leader of the Achaemenid Empire) decided to invade Egypt in 525 BCE. he used a somewhat unusual strategy, he threw cats at them: This distressed the egyptians so much that the persian troops could defeat them. Afterwards Cambyses threw some more cats on the defeated egyptians just for shits and giggles.
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Aug 4, 2017 19:36
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loving lol. I think I read that cats were sacred animals in ancient Egypt, was that why?
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Aug 4, 2017 19:54
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Yes, they were. Later on people would uncover stashes of cat mummies donated to Egyptian shrines as sacrifices, and grind them up into fertilizer or brown paint by the million.
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Aug 4, 2017 19:57
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And Persians considered cats evil, right?
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Aug 4, 2017 20:31
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:And Persians considered cats evil, right? With good reason: 
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Aug 4, 2017 20:34
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tbf even if they didn't consider cats sacred it would have been an effective tactic, having a cat thrown at your face is gonna make it hard to fight
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Aug 4, 2017 21:30
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:And Persians considered cats evil, right? Not just Persians. Ever heard of black cats and bad luck?
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Aug 4, 2017 21:37
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Speaking of my previous post about mummies being used as paint, there is an anecdote recorded by the wife of painter Edward Burne Jones, who freaked out when he discovered one of his staple paints was made from dead bodies, and insisted on giving the paint tube a ceremonial burial: "We were sitting together after lunch ..., the men talking about different colours that they used, when Mr.Tadema startled us by saying he had lately been invited to go and see a mummy that was in his colourman's workshop before it was ground down into paint. Edward scouted [scornfully rejected] the idea of the pigment having anything to do with a mummy — said the name must be only borrowed to describe a particular shade of brown — but when assured that it was actually compounded of real mummy, he left us at once, hastened to the studio, and returning with the only tube he had, insisted on our giving it decent burial there and then. So a hole was bored in the green grass at our feet, and we all watched it put safely in, and the spot was marked by one of the girls planting a daisy root above it”
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Aug 4, 2017 21:43
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