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If renouncing your citizenship isn't taking a stance on an issue then I don't know what the hell is.
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Nov 14, 2015 14:44
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freethought posted:He actually does take a position though doesn't he?
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Nov 14, 2015 16:05
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Baron Bifford posted:All he's saying there is that he wants his privacy and independence. He doesn't condemn government surveillance programs in general. I know not getting symbolism is your gimmick, but you might be taking this too far.
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Nov 15, 2015 22:59
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Baron Bifford posted:There's a difference between referencing an issue and taking a position on it. Superman specifically and explicitly supports the Arab Spring in this issue. That is in fact the thing that the US Government gets upset about. 
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Nov 15, 2015 23:07
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I just want to see Batman and Superman fight and eventually get into a Justice League movie like I wanted ever since I was 10. gently caress the sperging in this thread.
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Nov 16, 2015 00:18
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Thanks for your contribution.
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Nov 16, 2015 03:02
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Kal-El gets shot out into space from a giant dick on Krypton and walks out of a giant vagina on Earth, reborn with a sense of purpose in Man of Steel. I fully expect BvS to be not subtle in that same vein when it comes to symbolism, political stances, subtext, etc. The movie will also be good and awesome and I hope there's more phallic and yonic imagery to mull over.
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Nov 16, 2015 04:13
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ImpAtom posted:You should read some actual Superman comics. It's incredibly disingenuous to reference an interpretation of Superman that's absurdly unconventional even by the standards of absurdly unconventional Superman interpretations -- so much that the story is basically only known for just how very unconventional it is -- in order to school someone on how they just don't understand "actual Superman comics." Which is not to say that Superman is necessarily political or apolitical, since there have been interpretations going either way...merely to say that you picked a terrible example. The very fact that Superman renouncing his citizenship was such a big deal for people at the time (insofar that, again, it would have absolutely no ramifications to anything at all going forward) was because he's so clearly and consistently identified as American for so long. And even then, identifying as American =/= identifying with American policies.
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Nov 16, 2015 06:50
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BrianWilly posted:He'll have a heck of a time finding this "actual Superman comic," which is a nine-page side story from a fill-in writer featured in one issue that never has any effect on any other stories whatsoever and has never been brought up again, set in an incarnation of the universe that no longer exists. If it has even an indirect effect on the presentation of the character in this film it'll have more impact on Superman's cultural cachet than decades' worth of "relevant" comics. Sorry.
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Nov 16, 2015 07:12
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But he wasn't talking about the film, ImpAtom was presenting Action Comics #900 as some sort of object lesson about "actual Superman comics." It's not. Oh I've no doubt Team Snyder will be looking at it, along with other similar and dissimilar scenes about Superman's political leanings, for inspiration on this film that examines Superman's relation to the world. Just saying, it's misleading at best and fatuous at worst to hold up such a fringey offbeat instance of a character's behavior as...well, a character's standard behavior. e: It doesn't even hold up that well in comparison to the film, where one of the only things Clark even expresses that strong an opinion about is "I am an American, guys. I'm totes an American. Did you get that? Yeah? Aaaamericaan. Aiight, cool." BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Nov 16, 2015 |
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Nov 16, 2015 07:26
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BrianWilly posted:He'll have a heck of a time finding this "actual Superman comic," which is a nine-page side story from a fill-in writer featured in one issue that never has any effect on any other stories whatsoever and has never been brought up again, set in an incarnation of the universe that no longer exists. No he wouldn't because there are countless Superman comics which are political. He is a newspaper reporter whose most iconic villain has, for a huge percentage of his life, been a businessman or CEO. You're straight-up wrong if you're trying to pretend Superman hasn't been political. I chose an obvious and blatant example that received actual news coverage. This isn't even the first time this story had been done. You only objected because you tried to make some stupid point about how it wasn't a 'common' interpretation instead of paying attention to my actual point about how Superman is constantly political. You ignored my actual point which I will quote: ImpAtom posted:Sometimes he represents the establishment (as in TDKR where he is literally working for Ronald Reagan) and sometimes he's counter-establishment (as in the modern comics where he's literally beating up corrupt cops) but he's not apolitical by default. in favor of acting like I went "Action Comics #900 is the only Superman there is!" BrianWilly posted:But he wasn't talking about the film, ImpAtom was presenting Action Comics #900 as some sort of object lesson about "actual Superman comics." It's not. How isn't it? Because it isn't canon anymore? Neither are half the stories MoS references. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Nov 16, 2015 |
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Nov 16, 2015 07:52
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Superman destroying the drone is pretty much unavoidably a political statement. Superman is communicating the idea that if an individual citizen has the means/power to directly combat some government act that they don't respect (committing a serious crime in the process), it can be ok to do so.
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Nov 16, 2015 08:14
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Well, if Superman is political, where does he stand? Is he left-wing or right-wing? Is he a libertarian or a socialist? What does he think of taxation, or abortion, gun rights, police powers, or military spending? Superman very rarely says anything political and when he does it's always something non-controversial. Superman paying lip service to democracy and freedom doesn't mean anything for an American hero. Did Superman ever promote gay rights before it became fashionable? He never takes issue with anything the government does unless it's building secret underground labs where metahumans get dissected. 99% of his villains are too out-of-this-world or loony. His greatest foe is a CEO (at least he was before the last reboot) but the rivalry was driven by Luthor's pride and insecurity rather than any resentment for oligarchism. Keep in mind that Superman's best friend, Bruce Wayne, is also a CEO.
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Nov 16, 2015 08:15
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Baron Bifford posted:Well, if Superman is political, where does he stand? Is he left-wing or right-wing? Is he a libertarian or a socialist? What does he think of taxation, or abortion, gun rights, police powers, or military spending? He does not stand in any one specific place because it depends on the writer. By and large he tends to trend towards the American Liberal sides of the spectrum but that is by no means the only way he is presented. However Superman has commented on literally all of those things at one time or another. Sometimes broadly, sometimes straightforwardly. Superman does not have a single policy or a single personality trait but he has frequently been political.   This one is in response to being effectively told that Arabs are all terrorists (and if you don't think that's political, even at the time it was published, lol.)  Here's an issue where Lana Lang and Lois Lane hatch a scheme to get the death penalty banned in Star City (as it already is in Metropolis) and it works and is presented as a good thing.  And I'm using older comics here because finding stuff in Morrison's T-shirt Superman or JMS's aborted Superman Walks Across The Country bullshit (to use both a good and bad example) is effortless. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Nov 16, 2015 |
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Nov 16, 2015 08:20
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Show me a book where Superman takes a position on an issue that is actually controversial.
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Nov 16, 2015 08:29
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Baron Bifford posted:Show me a book where Superman takes a position on an issue that is actually controversial. In what world do you live in that those are not controversial issues? Literally every single one I posted is a thing where an ongoing controversy about the subject exists to this day. Currently in the comics Superman is literally fighting police brutality and you're kidding yourself if you think that is a cut-and-dried matter. Superman is not a constant whirlwind of far-left or far-right ideas and viewpoints but he's absolutely not apolitical. A lot of that depends on his writer at the time of course and over the course of his history Superman has had multiple viewpoints on the same subjects. That doesn't matter much though because "Superman" is a comic character who exists to tell stories, not an actual person who needs to be consistent. The argument that "DC has bent over backwards to keep Superman as apolitical as possible" is silly. Heck, it works both ways. Here's Superman seemingly uncomfortable with the idea of gay marriage. That's still a stance, even if it is a mild one and taken in a strip where Wonder Woman lightly owns him on it.  ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Nov 16, 2015 |
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Nov 16, 2015 08:32
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Health care, gun control, immigrant demographics and capital punishment are common sense issues that have never been controversial, divisive or politicized in American discourse, gotcha.
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Nov 16, 2015 08:35
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ImpAtom posted:No he wouldn't because there are countless Superman comics which are political. He is a newspaper reporter whose most iconic villain has, for a huge percentage of his life, been a businessman or CEO. You're straight-up wrong if you're trying to pretend Superman hasn't been political. I chose an obvious and blatant example that received actual news coverage. As far as I can tell, Baron Bifford's claim is that Superman tries to remain above politics even when the story in question is political in nature. Which is true. One of the most in-depth and consequential facets of Clark's relationship with Lex Luthor -- the businessman and/or CEO you refer to -- is that he wouldn't publicly speak against Luthor, as Superman, when Luthor was running for president of the United States, because he wanted the American people to choose their president on their own. That is a trait that someone might glean about the character, were they to read these actual Superman comics. So suggesting that Baron Bifford is wrong about this because he needs to read actual Superman comics is erroneous. And of course there are counterexamples. But the idea that Superman wants to avoid taking public stances on sociopolitical issues, even on issues he personally feels strongly about as private American citizen Clark Kent, is not something pulled out from thin air; it is, rather, an impression supported by the virtual entirety of post-Crisis, pre-Flashpoint Superman stories. None of those panels you posted above suggests that Superman is involving himself in politics at all. ImpAtom posted:How isn't it? Because it isn't canon anymore? Neither are half the stories MoS references.
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Nov 16, 2015 09:01
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BrianWilly posted:As far as I can tell, Baron Bifford's claim is that Superman tries to remain above politics even when the story in question is political in nature. Which is true. No it isn't. I'm posting plenty of examples of the opposite. BrianWilly posted:One of the most in-depth and consequential facets of Clark's relationship with Lex Luthor -- the businessman and/or CEO you refer to -- is that he wouldn't publicly speak against Luthor, as Superman, when Luthor was running for president of the United States, because he wanted the American people to choose their president on their own. Superman, the in-story character, was trying to remain apolitical in that story but that doesn't mean DC Comics keeps Superman, the out of story character, apolitical. (Also Clark Kent spoke out against Lex Luthor so it isn't even like the entire character was apolitical, just his superhero guise) BrianWilly posted:. None of those panels you posted above suggests that Superman is involving himself in politics at all. Do you not understand the idea that a character can be involved with politics without literally running for president? BrianWilly posted:And why do you think Action Comics #900 is a enough good representation of Superman's general modus operandi that you've referenced it twice? Because it was a highly publicized recent issue which even someone who doesn't read comics could have heard about. I've posted plenty of other examples and I can keep going without touching on things like Superman taking on the Ku Klux Klan, Superman invading an Arab country, the countless elseworlds which get far more political, and so-on. Regardless of all of this, Zach Snyder has openly discussed the fact that Superman being an illegal immigrant influences his work and has made it very clear that his version of Superman s politically influenced I mean loving hell look at this shot from BvS:  Look how lacking in politics this is. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Nov 16, 2015 |
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Nov 16, 2015 09:06
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There's something incredibly unnerving about this Wonder Woman.
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Nov 16, 2015 09:12
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Remarkably, it was not drawn by Greg Land.ImpAtom posted:I mean loving hell look at this shot from BvS:
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Nov 16, 2015 09:19
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Are we getting Wonder Woman & Aquaman in this movie too?
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Nov 16, 2015 09:39
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Heid the Ball posted:Are we getting Wonder Woman & Aquaman in this movie too? According to the trailer and cast announcement, yes.
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Nov 16, 2015 09:52
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So annoying when ppl are willfully obtuse because they don't want to admit they've lost an argument...just saying...
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Nov 16, 2015 10:42
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Hat Thoughts posted:So annoying when ppl are willfully obtuse because they don't want to admit they've lost an argument...just saying...
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Nov 16, 2015 10:50
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ImpAtom posted:No it isn't. I'm posting plenty of examples of the opposite. Yeah, Superman sometimes gets a little more political in Elseworlds tales, like Red Son or Injustice or Morrison's Nazi Superman. Often these feature villainous versions of Superman, which allows the editors to say "oh don't take what he did or said seriously, that was just an evil twin". But the mainstream Superman remains deliberately neutral. They want Superman to have universal appeal. Does anyone in real-world America hate what Superman stands for? Does Fox News ever condemn Superman for being a liberal icon or a Rao-worshipping heathen? No. He ruffles absolutely no feathers. Because punching Bizarro in the face will never be controversial. Batman vs Superman is going to turn out much like Nolan's Batman films. There will be allusions to political issues but no real commentary. No subtext, just text. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Nov 16, 2015 |
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Nov 16, 2015 10:51
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Baron Bifford posted:Superman observing without commenting a gay wedding in 2015 will touch zero nerves. I What loving universe do you live in? There are people right now boycotting soup because of an ad with two dads. Soup.
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Nov 16, 2015 12:13
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It wouldn't actually be apolitical if antebellum-era Superman carefully avoided commenting in public on the controversial slavery issue because he wanted to let people make up their own minds.
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Nov 16, 2015 12:34
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Snowman_McK posted:What loving universe do you live in? There are people right now boycotting soup because of an ad with two dads. Yeah, just google up any article about that Wonder Woman gay marriage story (and there were a lot of articles) and scroll down to the comment section. There's a whoooole lot of people who got pissy over it.
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Nov 16, 2015 12:38
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Yeah, but it's Wonder Woman who is taking the heat. It wasn't Superman behind the altar.
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Nov 16, 2015 13:02
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Baron Bifford posted:Batman vs Superman is going to turn out much like Nolan's Batman films. There will be allusions to political issues but no real commentary. No subtext, just text. So, there will be Not Real political commentary, but the Not Real political commentary will be explicit (text) instead of implicit (subtext)? Baron Bifford posted:Yeah, but it's Wonder Woman who is taking the heat. It wasn't Superman behind the altar. The fact that Superman was surprised at Wonder Woman's open support of gay marriage was a political statement, at least in that story. Why does he need to be gay?
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Nov 16, 2015 14:11
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Baron Bifford posted:But don't you think that most of them feel a little, well, limp? Not at all. They're very much safe middle-class American liberal but they still exist and many of them would find strong arguments. (Seriously, look in the back of an comic at their letter column sometimes. Things got "my children shouldn't be exposed to this filth" stuff for as long as they've existed.) Superman is not going to be extreme because his writers are not extreme. At best you're going to get some normal deviation on the left-right spectrum, probably more to the left at the moment due to demographics. However that doesn't make him apolitical, especially when a lot of things are politicized by default. You can argue they shouldn't be but that's a whole different kettle of fish. Baron Bifford posted:Does Fox News ever condemn Superman for being a liberal icon or a Rao-worshipping heathen? Yes. Repeatedly. They had reports (often poorly researched because Fox News) when Morrison did a black president Superman, for the aforementioned Superman Gives Up His Citizenship, for Superman vs the Police, when Superman was doing his walk across the country and had some thinly-veiled pro-Immigrant stance, ect, ect, ect. I mean this is Fox News so that isn't hard to do but it has happened on multiple occasions. The also condemned Mass Effect for being an alien sex simulator so y'know.
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Nov 16, 2015 16:18
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Superman also exposed and depopularized the Ku Klux Klan in real life.
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Nov 16, 2015 16:24
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The only way to be political is to be gay apparently.
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Nov 16, 2015 16:51
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Baron Bifford posted:We'll see where this movie goes with it. If there was a single illegal alien would it actually be an issue? Also supermans planet was destroyed, making him more a refugee?
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Nov 16, 2015 20:52
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It's unfair for me to judge BvS in advance, but I have a feeling it will be a bit like The Dark Knight Rises: referencing political themes without really going anywhere with them.
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Nov 16, 2015 20:58
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I feel that a film that literally has a group of foreign terrorists occupy a Wall Street like stock exchange and have them take over the city and ruin everything with communism is at least a bit political even if it isn't exactly handled with finesse. There is literally a scene where Cat Woman and her Non-Cat but still Woman friend are in a looted manor and Cat Woman finds a family photo on the floor and says "This used to be someone's house" and her friend replies "Now it's EVERYONE'S house!". I mean Sergei Eisenstein was not one for subtlety but you would never see anyone argue that Strike or Battleship Potemkin aren't really political films.
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Nov 16, 2015 22:34
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Baron Bifford posted:It's unfair for me to judge BvS in advance, but I have a feeling it will be a bit like The Dark Knight Rises: referencing political themes without really going anywhere with them. TDKR went places with political themes, it was just kind of weird places. When Batman raises an army of police officers to help destroy the corrupt false Occupy Gotham that is a political message.
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Nov 16, 2015 22:36
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This is Bifford's entire gimmick. The Dredd thread turned into pages of "well, that's not satirical/political because *reasons*" If you hold real still, you'll fool his eyesight.
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Nov 16, 2015 22:38
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Is this movie still not out or is it okay to hate it yet?
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Nov 16, 2015 22:39
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