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FreudianSlippers
Apr 12, 2010

Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!



The best thing about DKR is that we're shown some revolutionary tribunals where cops and Batman collaborators are sentenced to death and we're obviously meant to be horrified at these show trials but everyone we see getting sentenced is actually 100% guilty so the system obviously works.

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BrianWilly
Apr 24, 2007

There is no homosexual terrorist Johnny Silverhand

Equeen posted:

The fact that Superman was surprised at Wonder Woman's open support of gay marriage was a political statement, at least in that story. Why does he need to be gay?
I probably shouldn't keep speaking for BB, but I think he meant that it would be a more edgy political stance if Superman was officiating the wedding like Wonder Woman was, not that Superman needed to be the one getting married.

ImpAtom posted:

No it isn't. I'm posting plenty of examples of the opposite.

Superman, the in-story character, was trying to remain apolitical in that story but that doesn't mean DC Comics keeps Superman, the out of story character, apolitical. (Also Clark Kent spoke out against Lex Luthor so it isn't even like the entire character was apolitical, just his superhero guise)

Do you not understand the idea that a character can be involved with politics without literally running for president?
Heck, one of the first things I said was that there are plenty of interpretations of Superman being political, though you seem to have expanded the scope of such to include "Clark Kent verbalizes some kind of political opinion" and "Politics is occurring around Superman's relative vicinity." Which...yeah. Sure. Of course there have been political events, themes, and situations suffusing a lot of Superman stories.

But you can't deny that Superman himself wanting to stay neutral about political events has been an enduring consistent trait throughout his books. It's telling that most instances where Superman does significantly favor one or another sociopolitical stance are Elseworlds stories. The strength of Elseworlds, of course, lies in the way that they differentiate from "standard" storylines about the character in question, which is actually a great way to accentuate the character's original standard traits. If Superman's "differentiated" Elseworlds traits are so often presented as him being politically-passionate one way or another, it just goes to show that his mainstream, standard traits are usually that of him being as non-partisan as he can be.

Which is why it was so preposterous for you to toss out those Action Comics #900 scans like, "Oh hey, if this poor peasant read 'actual Superman comics' like this significant consequential saga about Superman's foreign policies, then he'd know how very heavily-political Superman really is!" Well, see, the fact is that if someone read anything from Joe Kelly's run or Greg Rucka's run or the Willingham/Winick "Decisions" series BB referenced, it is completely understandable that they'd have an impression that DC tries hard to keep their Superman character from being too partisan one way or another, even if the very storyline he appears in contains heavy political themes.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



BrianWilly posted:

But you can't deny that Superman himself wanting to stay neutral about political events has been an enduring consistent trait throughout his books.

What the poo poo does this have to do with the argument "DC comics does not politicize Superman?" Superman attempting to remain politically neutral is not the same as the character being apolitical especially when those attempts to remain politically neutral are themselves political because "Superman doesn't want to comment on Lex Luthor running for President" is not the same thing as "Superman has no opinion/does not voice an opinion of Lex Luthor running for President." Nor does it mean the character's stories are not making statements about things. (Especially when they frequently do.)

BrianWilly posted:

Well, see, the fact is that if someone read anything from Joe Kelly's run or Greg Rucka's run or the Willingham/Winick "Decisions" series BB referenced, it is completely understandable that they'd have an impression that DC tries hard to keep their Superman character from being too partisan one way or another, even if the very storyline he appears in contains heavy political themes.

No it isn't. You're completely and utterly incapable of grasping the idea that a character can make political statements without being political.

Hey, you know the panel he's talking about? The one where Superman won't say who he was voting for? It comes right after Lois Lane says she voted Republican and badgers him. The implication is that Superman voted Democrat and didn't want to argue with his wife. Even him refusing to speak there is meaningful because it comes after his wife openly states who she voted for and demands to know if 'his vote cancelled hers out.'

Edit:

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Nov 16, 2015

Electromax
May 6, 2007
trying to resist the fear

FreudianSlippers posted:

everyone we see getting sentenced is actually 100% guilty so the system obviously works.

Do they show anyone besides Gordon getting sentenced?

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


ImpAtom posted:

Hey, you know the panel he's talking about? The one where Superman won't say who he was voting for? It comes right after Lois Lane says she voted Republican and badgers him. The implication is that Superman voted Democrat and didn't want to argue with his wife. Th

I like to think that Superman swooped in and grabbed you before you could finish this thought. He just doesn't want anyone to know, ok?

Edit: aw you fixed it

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Electromax posted:

Do they show anyone besides Gordon getting sentenced?

Yeah, they showed one of the other corrupt guys first. Gordon came after.

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I like to think that Superman swooped in and grabbed you before you could finish this thought. He just doesn't want anyone to know, ok?

Edit: aw you fixed it

I'm sorry.

BrianWilly
Apr 24, 2007

There is no homosexual terrorist Johnny Silverhand

ImpAtom posted:

What the poo poo does this have to do with the argument "DC comics does not politicize Superman?" Superman attempting to remain politically neutral is not the same as the character being apolitical especially when those attempts to remain politically neutral are themselves political because "Superman doesn't want to comment on Lex Luthor running for President" is not the same thing as "Superman has no opinion/does not voice an opinion of Lex Luthor running for President." Nor does it mean the character's stories are not making statements about things. (Especially when they frequently do.)
Because it's a convenient way to keep Superman accessible. It's a way to involve hot topic imagery like presidential elections and Middle Eastern conflicts in Superman's books without Superman himself appearing divisive (with exceptions).

And because the character itself is so generally silent on so many political matters, readers on any side of the spectrum can say "Well, hey, it's just the writer using Superman as his own political mouthpiece" whenever Superman does deviate from the middle ground. You yourself have noted this. And so "Superman," the fictional character, remains this political blank slate; the more that writers take him to the extremes on either end, the more nebulous "his" "real" stances are. Moreover, he gets to play catch-up to other characters' progressive ideals -- like Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, even Batman -- after they've cleared the field and it's safer for him to do so. In Kingdom Come and Injustice, it's Wonder Woman who eggs him on and enables his extremism. In New Frontier, she's the radical Vietnam-sympathizer who wakes him up from his stooge-like stupor. The walking talking political maelstrom that is Wonder Woman gets to advocate for gay marriage while poor non-committal Superman stands bemusedly on the sidelines. See, even in stories where Superman is bluntly-political, they still get to say "See, this isn't the normal Superman, and look how tame he is compared to those other guys."

ImpAtom posted:

No it isn't. You're completely and utterly incapable of grasping the idea that a character can make political statements without being political.

Hey, you know the panel he's talking about? The one where Superman won't say who he was voting for? It comes right after Lois Lane says she voted Republican and badgers him. The implication is that Superman voted Democrat and didn't want to argue with his wife. Even him refusing to speak there is meaningful because it comes after his wife openly states who she voted for and demands to know if 'his vote cancelled hers out.'
No, that was not the implication. That's a stupid implication which ignores Superman's long-standing refusal to be partisan -- which the story itself references -- and boils it down to some sort of domestic squabble, on top of missing the series' overt support of the secret ballot system. It would negate the entire point of that story if being on the same party was all it took for Superman to reveal his political affiliations.

Before you blow another gasket responding and editing, I ought to mention that I don't actually disagree about Superman being a source of political narratives. All I said is that it's incredibly easy to see him as a non-partisan figure from reading his books and that DC hasn't exactly tried to fight that impression.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006


Martman posted:

The only way to be political is to be gay apparently.

This is unironically a problem with the modern American left, yes.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

FreudianSlippers posted:

The best thing about DKR is that we're shown some revolutionary tribunals where cops and Batman collaborators are sentenced to death and we're obviously meant to be horrified at these show trials but everyone we see getting sentenced is actually 100% guilty so the system obviously works.

I mean yes, technically Gordon is guilty of conspiring against Bane but that doesn't deserve death.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



BrianWilly posted:

And because the character itself is so generally silent on so many political matters

No he isn't! You're taking the statement of "Superman, in-character, does not choose to openly endorse (some) political matters" and extending that to "Superman is never political." You keep pointing to the fact that Superman in-character does not use his Superman branding to support political parties and fail to realize that doesn't extend to Superman not expressing opinions on subject matter which he does. Superman doesn't look at the screen and go "vote Barack Obama 2016" but he certainly expresses his thoughts on things like immigration, medical care, gay marriage, war, gun control, drugs, and other subject matter. His exact thoughts on those subjects vary from writer to writer but that doesn't mean they're not there.

BrianWilly posted:

All I said is that it's incredibly easy to see him as a non-partisan figure from reading his books and that DC hasn't exactly tried to fight that impression.

No it isn't. I've in fact posted plenty of examples and you keep going "Well, those are exceptions!" I posted a shot from the film this thread is about. If DC wanted Superman to be apolitical they would not be allowing Zach Snyder to make a film where their heroic protagonist is directly compared with illegal immigrants.

I can keep going with posting panels. You can't look at this:

and say it isn't political even if Superman isn't directly stating something. Someone doesn't include a giant Confederate flag and a stormfront T-Shirt by accident. And before you argue the Confederate Flag isn't controversial think back to events earlier this year.

computer parts posted:

I mean yes, technically Gordon is guilty of conspiring against Bane but that doesn't deserve death.

Gordon was complacent in the cover up of Harvey Dent's actions which lead to the Dent Act and the erosion of criminal justice in Gotham. Gordon himself was aware of this and was even struggling with revealing it. I mean I agree that he doesn't deserve horrible mob execution but he was responsible for a fairly heinous act.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Nov 16, 2015

FreudianSlippers
Apr 12, 2010

Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!



computer parts posted:

I mean yes, technically Gordon is guilty of conspiring against Bane but that doesn't deserve death.

Bane had some good ideas.

Lessail
Apr 1, 2011


tell me how vgk aren't playing like shit again

p.s. help my grapes are so sour!


ImpAtom posted:

Hey, you know the panel he's talking about? The one where Superman won't say who he was voting for? It comes right after Lois Lane says she voted Republican and badgers him. The implication is that Superman voted Democrat and didn't want to argue with his wife. Even him refusing to speak there is meaningful because it comes after his wife openly states who she voted for and demands to know if 'his vote cancelled hers out.'

Edit:


Haha Clark is blue and Lois is red

Baron Bifford
May 24, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2283 days!


Equeen posted:

The fact that Superman was surprised at Wonder Woman's open support of gay marriage was a political statement, at least in that story. Why does he need to be gay?
He expressed surprise but not revulsion or approval. He observed without making comments. In the same issue, Wonder Woman prevents some unidentified army from invading another country (probably a reference to the Russian annexation of Crimea), and while Wonder Woman fights them Superman just stands aside without making any remarks.

ImpAtom posted:

Gordon was complacent in the cover up of Harvey Dent's actions which lead to the Dent Act and the erosion of criminal justice in Gotham. Gordon himself was aware of this and was even struggling with revealing it. I mean I agree that he doesn't deserve horrible mob execution but he was responsible for a fairly heinous act.
Speaking of the Dent Act, what was so heinous about it? I don't remember the movie presenting any details about it, other than the fact it was effective.

ImpAtom posted:

I can keep going with posting panels. You can't look at this:

and say it isn't political even if Superman isn't directly stating something. Someone doesn't include a giant Confederate flag and a stormfront T-Shirt by accident. And before you argue the Confederate Flag isn't controversial think back to events earlier this year.
This is an interesting panel. What issue is it from? But generally, politics not what he is. Yeah, on rare occasions he might beat up an abusive father or a white supremacist who sells illegal firearms to children (how controversial!) but it isn't the norm. Next issue he'll be back to punching silly monsters in the face.

Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Nov 17, 2015

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

SEXY... defines my posts and my ride


The Dent Act allowed Gotham to lock up tons of people without due process basically. It was a reactionary "tough on crime" thing in honor of Harvey Dent, and it (along with poor people migrating to the sewers) allowed the city (and Batman) to convince themselves they had won for 8 years when really it just covered up all the bad stuff.

Baron Bifford
May 24, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2283 days!


I found this fictional letter on a Batman wiki. The only detail it provides is that parole is denied to gangsters. Why is that terrible? A lot states have abolished parole altogether.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Baron Bifford posted:

Speaking of the Dent Act, what was so heinous about it? I don't remember the movie presenting any details about it, other than the fact it was effective.

The Dent Act removed the possibility of parole, instituted much harsher punishments, created faster turnaround times (which in turn allowed for more abused) and in general was a really awful 'for the good' kind of law that circumvented due process and only got passed because they whitewashed Harvey Dent and took advantage of his death.

Baron Bifford posted:

This is an interesting panel. What issue is it from? But generally, politics not what he is. Yeah, on rare occasions he might beat up an abusive father or a white supremacist who sells illegal firearms to children (how controversial!) but it isn't the norm. Next issue he'll be back to punching silly monsters in the face.

Superman: Birthright. It's another of the books that inspired Man of Steel.

Gyges
Aug 4, 2004

NOW NO ONE
RECOGNIZE HULK


Baron Bifford posted:

This is an interesting panel. What issue is it from? But generally, politics not what he is. Yeah, on rare occasions he might beat up an abusive father or a white supremacist who sells illegal firearms to children (how controversial!) but it isn't the norm. Next issue he'll be back to punching silly monsters in the face.

Then the issue after that he'll help Lois be black for a day so she can better understand racism in America. Superman both punches silly monsters and makes political statements, a lot. Even when he's punching silly monsters those monsters are sometimes stand ins for political issues. It really is possible to have a long and expansive history of being political without that being all he's about.

poo poo, being for Truth, Justice, and the American Way is an inherently political thing. It means that everything he does is either the right way for an American to act or results in a lesson for America when shown to be wrong.

MeatwadIsGod
Sep 30, 2004

Behold! It is I! I bestow upon you...my dirty dipey!


All Star Superman is probably my favorite take on the character, though I've read way more Batman stuff.

It's telling to me that the most excited I've been while watching trailers for this is just shots of Bruce Wayne out of costume. That shot of his face looking at the suit in the first teaser and then moreso the shot of him running into the debris in Metropolis while everyone else was running away. The second shot was such a perfect "show, don't tell" moment that explains why people like that character. All the fighting and the DKR stuff drags it down a little for me, but I'm still excited to see it.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

adrift on a wind,
immaculate and unseen


Anything Superman does is going to be political because it implicitly lays out for the reader what issues it's okay to be noncommittal on versus what issues any upstanding person, whatever their preferences, should be expected to uphold or reject. Like, right now you've got Superman being kind of "huh? oh, well, gosh, okay then" about a gay wedding. But even a decade ago you might've, instead, seen him steadfastly refusing to reveal to his fans whether or not he believed gay marriage should be legal or not.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Baron Bifford posted:

I found this fictional letter on a Batman wiki. The only detail it provides is that parole is denied to gangsters. Why is that terrible? A lot states have abolished parole altogether.

Hmm, I wonder if this might be a political topic.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Baron Bifford posted:

I found this fictional letter on a Batman wiki. The only detail it provides is that parole is denied to gangsters. Why is that terrible? A lot states have abolished parole altogether.

The movie explicitly describes how the Dent Act, among other things, removes segregation between men and women in prison, reduces the burden of evidence, and other lovely things. This is all directly from the film. (The first is how they excuse locking Catwoman up with dudes.) It is A Bad Thing.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


Seriously, stop talking to Baron Bifford. His entire gimmick is "but that's not political/allegorical/symbolic"

Baron Bifford
May 24, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2283 days!


ImpAtom posted:

reduces the burden of evidence
I don't remember that bit.

Sea Lily
Aug 5, 2007

Everything changes, Pit.
Even gods.



did superman shoot that guy?

Baron Bifford
May 24, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2283 days!


Kelp Plankton posted:

did superman shoot that guy?
Probably not, since the Internet did not asplode that Wednesday.

Snowman_McK posted:

Seriously, stop talking to Baron Bifford. His entire gimmick is "but that's not political/allegorical/symbolic"
Come on, when's the last time I did that?

Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Nov 17, 2015

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

Because if I tell you, you'll tell your friends, your friends are callin' me on the horn all the time, I gotta show up at shopping centers for openings and sign autographs and shit like that and it makes my life a *hell*. Okay? A living hell.


Arglebargle III posted:

Is this movie still not out or is it okay to hate it yet?

We've got another 4 months of this conversation to go!

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness


Soiled Meat

Kelp Plankton posted:

did superman shoot that guy?

Knowing comics, Superman fired the gun, and the next panel was him catching the bullet and holding it in his fingertips a centimeter away from the guy.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Drifter posted:

Knowing comics, Superman fired the gun, and the next panel was him catching the bullet and holding it in his fingertips a centimeter away from the guy.

Well done! Here's your No-Prize.

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

Because if I tell you, you'll tell your friends, your friends are callin' me on the horn all the time, I gotta show up at shopping centers for openings and sign autographs and shit like that and it makes my life a *hell*. Okay? A living hell.


Drifter posted:

Knowing comics, Superman fired the gun, and the next panel was him catching the bullet and holding it in his fingertips a centimeter away from the guy.

sponges
Sep 14, 2011



That guy is going to suffer permanent hearing loss

Baron Bifford
May 24, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2283 days!


It's nice to see Superman pay attention to real crimes and social issues. This doesn't happen often in his books.

GonSmithe
Apr 25, 2010

Perhaps it's in the nature of television. Just waves in space.


MOD CHALLENGE TIME


BARON BIFFORD. Sometimes, a cigar is not just a cigar. Through a number of threads, you've shown that you have an inability to acknowledge the subtext of various movies and comics. You often derail threads for multiple pages while others try to explain what they mean when they are talking about the specific subtext you are arguing against. I think it's time for that to change. I want you on the other side of the argument, this time.

THE CHALLENGE:
There are many movies that comes out with subtext so close to the surface that it may as well be called text. Even a child would be able to pick up on the themes and allegories in these films. Your mod challenge revolves around one of these films.
The perennial example...

Alien. The story of the mining crew aboard the ship Nostromo whose lives are shaken when they discover an alien lifeform while responding to a foreign distress call. Alien is a classic thriller, and arguably one of the most well made films of all time. The piece of art Necronom IV (above), by designer H.R. Giger served as the design of the eponymous Alien, and Giger helped design and develop many of the other creatures and sets featured in the film. Which leads to the challenge.

  • You will write a short essaay (500-800 words) on the major subtext of Alien: sex. Almost every frame of the movie is dripping (heh) with sexual themes and images, so you have a plethora to work with.

A few notes:
  • Outside sources are welcome. The point of this mod challenge is to help you recognize and analyze the subtext of movies. I want you to utilize any and all resources you need to help you with this task. If you use an outside source, please cite it. Plagiarism will result in an automatic ban.
  • I intentionally left the topic of the essay open. You may write about any sexual theme you'd like, as long as you can argue it well. That's the fun of subtext, there isn't just one right answer.
  • You have until Thanksgiving day, November 26th to write the essay. Failure to complete it in this time limit will result in an automatic ban.
  • Upon proper completion of the essay, you will be spared banning and awarded with your choice of a new avatar/title, or archive upgrade (your choice).
  • Refusal to complete this challenge will result in a ban.

Now, I know what some of you are thinking. "Alien? That movie is way too obvious in its themes. The essay practically writes itself!" You're absolutely correct. This will be a very easy essay to write. So...

SUB-CHALLENGE, OPEN TO ALL
If you think Baron Bifford might be getting a free pass at this, you can help decide his fate.


  • Any poster may write a long-form essay (900+ words) on the subtext of your choice in any Happy Madison Productions film (edit-Billy Madison and Happy Gilmore are also included). Want to write about oedipal overtones in Jack and Jill? Go for it. The male gaze in Little Nicky? Sure. You do you.

The applicable notes above apply to this essay as well, with one exception.
  • Completion of this essay awards a custom avatar/title, archive, or platinum upgrade, as well as the ability to decide Baron Bifford's fate. You will become judge, jury, and executioner for the Baron. If your essay explains your chosen subtext in your chosen film better than Baron's essay, you will decide whether he is banned or not. Will you be the angel or the devil on his shoulder?
  • If multiple posters decide to complete this sub-challenge, you will each be awarded an avatar/upgrade (your choice), but only one of you (by my choice) will be given the power to decide his fate

Good luck to all!

GonSmithe fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Nov 17, 2015

Baron Bifford
May 24, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2283 days!


Good Lord.

Myrddin_Emrys
Mar 27, 2007

A man who never made a mistake, never made anything


I was about to reply that this long anticipated thread I have been looking forward too has quickly become one of the worst on SA right now. GonSmithe has just gone and made everything alright in the world once more.

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007





Might as well ban him now

Myrddin_Emrys
Mar 27, 2007

A man who never made a mistake, never made anything


MacheteZombie posted:

Might as well ban him now

And miss out on the fun?

Jenny Angel
Oct 24, 2010

Out of Control
Hard to Regulate
Anything Goes!


Lipstick Apathy

GonSmithe posted:

  • Any poster may write a long-form essay (900+ words) on the subtext of your choice in any Happy Madison Productions film. Want to write about oedipal overtones in Jack and Jill? Go for it. The male gaze in Little Nicky? Sure. You do you.

The examples you give are both sexual subtexts, and Baron's essay is mandated as being about sexual subtext. Does my Happy Madison essay need to be about sexual subtext too?

Baron Bifford
May 24, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 2283 days!


I made a casual remark that some other goons took way too seriously and now everybody's angry because they're still butthurt over a similar debate that happened three years ago. Oh well, I suppose I have no choice.

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

Because if I tell you, you'll tell your friends, your friends are callin' me on the horn all the time, I gotta show up at shopping centers for openings and sign autographs and shit like that and it makes my life a *hell*. Okay? A living hell.


Jenny Angel posted:

Does my Happy Madison essay need to be about sexual subtext too?

I loving hope not, that's not something anyone should ever have to think about.

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Myrddin_Emrys
Mar 27, 2007

A man who never made a mistake, never made anything


Baron Bifford posted:

I made a casual remark that some other goons took way too seriously and now everybody's angry because they're still butthurt over a similar debate that happened three years ago. Oh well, I suppose I have no choice.

You always have a choice son, don't let anyone ever tell you any different

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