Geriatric Pirate posted:

strange thing how when you introduce some aspect of paying to medical treatment doctors all of a sudden start treating a lot more patients. Funny that.

Herman Merman posted:

The purpose of the health care system is not to get doctors to treat as many patients as possible but to maximize the health and well-being of the population. I'm sure a lot of doctors would be happy to perform all kinds of unnecessary tests and interventions if they were paid for it.

Ligur posted:

There is nothing going on.... dahhh... hurr... international laws and regulations... prevent everyong from doing... hurp... anything... *drools*

*wakes up*

RACISM!!!! NAZ... nazis... *sniffs glue, falls asleep*

Ligur posted:

Thanks man.

However, what points do you disagree on in my post, if anything, and why? Can you explain it in any manner?

I don't think you of course, you will probably just think about the moon nazis who are ready to descend upon us and ruin your way of life.

edit 1:


Also this is quite if you are saying "we" contains the (majority of) posters in this thread. If it were so, it would paint all the screaming and whining about my posts in the last FinPol thread in a very strange light indeed, as I've been mostly saying the same things for the past four years.

It would hence appear that "we" do not know.

edit 2:

And lol It should not be possible!!!1 Dey r escapunging teh deathe!!112

And goddamn that almost all of the "immigrant skeptics" knew 10 years ago what our Sisäministeri Orpo just figured out right now kun paska on ollut jo kourassa.

Ligur posted:

I'm not flipping about anything Or if I am, what exactly do you think it is? Indeed Sweden isn't blocking anyone from applying asylum, just from drifting through. Which is a good thing, and for me is the gist of it: that is exactly why border controls are good in this situation.

If the Danes did the same, and the Germans the same and so on down the line the whole self-made crisis would be over in a month.

Buffalo squeeze posted:

So why are we training Rapid Deployment Forces?

Geriatric Pirate posted:

(Sauli) Niinistö said they started repealing it last year when they weren't able to help Sweden hunt for the submarine, yet for whatever reason they still haven't managed to. How the hell is it so difficult to get anything done in this country?

Ligur posted:

Hey Finns, if having an identity is harmful and equates opposing people with other identities, having read newspapers this week much to my detriment, is the Hitler-Satan why:

What is the point of having a country at all?
Why have a flag?
Why have national history?
Why have a national anthem?
Why vote?
Why pay taxes?
If borders are meaningless then why have them?

Rexroom posted:

Left Alliance's current head Paavo Arhinmäki has announced he's not going to continue his gig after his term, so this summer will see a new chairman for the party.

EDIT: Goddamn. Well, some commentary: While Paavo has been less charismatic lately, he's still one of the top people who vacuumed votes for the party. It'll be interesting to see who'll compete for the top spot.

Jerry Cotton posted:

Puistokemisti posted:

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/kotimaa/art-1448347040652.html
Is this real? Am I trapped in fever dream? What is even real anymore? Why am I pining for the return of the previous hallitus?

Kemper Boyd posted:

Does someone remember those political attitude studies or whoever made them? You know, the ones that say that the whole "everyone's a leftist/liberal when young" thing is a blatant lie and those people tended to be rightwing and conservative from the start. Including the generation that was into the whole punk rock thing.

Like I don't know about you dudes and dudettes but at least I was far more right-wing when I was about 16 or so and now hail Zizek worship Kropotkin.

Fish of hemp posted:

I'm really looking forward to our centennial celebration at 2017. Will there be a similar mood as in the first independence day?

Fish of hemp posted:

What do you think, is this government more incompetent or mean?

DarkCrawler posted:

Jesus what loving lame poo poo. Finnish anarchists suck. Finnish fascists suck. Only reason anyone watches either is because it's fun to watch either to fight. If you are looking for either or, please skip this post.



I'll reply later to Geriatric Pirate, who I respect very much for the single fact that he replies to posts with actual effort. Treating people as individuals is actually a big part of that reply.

quote:

Syksy Räsänen
2 t · Muokattu ·
Yesterday, I was at the racist "Independent Finland 2015" event and at the fascist 612 march organised by the National Resistance Movement. A few short observations, I should write more as time permits.
1) Never in my life have I been to such a fascist and scary event, outside Israel. Onstage, a nazi salute was made (with "Heil Hitler!"), a list of politicians to kill and torture (tortures were detailed) was sung out 'humorously', sodomisation of a well-known female politician with a cactus was discussed, and so on. [EDIT: The event was opened by Laura Huhtasaari, an MP from Perussuomalaiset, the second biggest party in parliament.]
2) I don't agree with the way anarchists tried to disrupt the nazi march, but claiming that the police were only there to make sure freedom of speech and assembly is respected is incorrect. The police removed the priest Kai Sadinmaa for just standing with a sign saying "Love the immigrant" (this according to his report, I didn't see this with my own eyes), and also removed a man standing on the sidewalk shouting "all different, all equal" to the nazis on the march, and -as usual- the police were very keen to fight against anarchists, not just protect people.
The police were there to protect racist speech and a nazi propaganda and recruiting event, suppress dissenting voices and fight against the anarchists. I'm pretty sure that this was not their self-perception (except maybe for the part about fighting anarchists), but this is what they did.
3) People have commented on how the far right should have the right to march on the streets, and we should not ban demonstrations based on their political views. Let's say we agree on this. However, the National Resistance Movement is not just putting forth a political vision, they are using violence to try to implement it. In other words, they are a terrorist organisation: in fact, an international network of organisations using violence against civilians, with the stated goal of overthrowing governments (and demolishing their independence, by the way) in one Leader-led nazi state. Their members have been convicted of serious crimes.
Yet, with all the furor about terrorism, has there been a single voice in the mainstream arguing have been arrested when they show up in demonstrations in public? Just imagine if this was an Islamist movement.
4) Incitement against Muslims, refugees, leftists, mainstream media and establishment politicians has reached such levels that I think it's only a question of time when people will be killed. When that happens, I don't want to see a single crocodile tear from those (including people at Helsingin Sanomat) who have kept on promoting racist incitement even as things have gotten more and more extreme
PS. I believe Max Blumenthal got wonderful footage of the events, he's doing a documentary on the Finnish far right for the Real News Network.

Ligur posted:

BS. There was no heiling hitler apart from some singular drunk (which almost nobody on the march even noticed, I didn't) as far as I know. And having followed the event I probably do know.

Of course if you have a kansallismielinen marssi, you will get nationalists and hitlers in the mix, but that doesn't make the whole event so. There might be humanoids involved, but that doesn't make it an alien invasion advocacy march.

What interestes me is that why do, time and time again, want to believe the nazis are lurking everywhere? What do you get out of it?

Ligur posted:

Indeed

Rappaport posted:

Hahaha kyselin vähäsen tästä natsi / Heil Hitler - hommasta, vastaus organisoijilta oli että elämätapataiteilija Seppo "totaalista sotaa" Lehto oli ollut mestoilla heilailemassa

Tässä on kuulkaa aika helvetin vakavasta ja eritoten organisoidusta äärioikeiston liikehdinnästä kyse

LOL

Puistokemisti posted:

This isn't the last step.

1. The government begins to tack on benefits. Unemployment benefits. Welfare benefits. Social Security benefits. Medical benefits.
2. Then they make everything complicated ON PURPOSE.
3. Then it STILL isn't enough to lift people out of poverty (which was never the plan from the start).
4. So after they run this game for a bit, they say HEY! I have a brilliant idea! Let's scrap all the benefits and just roll it into a one big lump sum payment (from the government) into your pocket on a weekly schedule!
5. Now they just wait for the right crisis to hit that throws most people on government rolls. Some economic error that forces most people into this system.
5. Now they declare every freaking aspect of your life is effectively owned by the government (in the name of making this system as efficient as possible). You wouldn't want to WASTE government money by running this inefficiently, now WOULD YOU?????? How guilty you should feel, for doing that.
6. So now you must itemize all purchases. Actually we'll just automate that process. Everything you buy is logged by the government. If you buy too many UNAPPROVED WASTEFUL items, maybe we will fine you or jail you.
7. At this point, you are effectively a ward of the state. You are their slave. The government controls and runs everything in the name of a safety net. Obey your masters.
8. It still isn't enough to lift everyone out of poverty. People have surrendered every right that matters. And are poor and hungry. The power grab is complete. The end.
9. The government stops giving a crap about you. You have nothing to offer them anyway. They've taken it all already. You descend into a third world nation status.

Does this sound like a lunatic idea? Why should it? We've been arguing that is likely where it is heading all along. This isn't freedom. This isn't utopia. Its just another way to create a dictatorship.


Maybe somewhere, hundreds of years into the future, some group of very brave, intelligent, and dedicated people will give their lives to overthrow this monster you erect in the name of equality. But I'm sure it won't be this generation. You are fools to allow this to happen to you.

quote:

Sanavalinnat kielivät suhtautumisesta sivistykseen
MIELIPIDE 9.12.2015 2:00
Helsingin Sanomat

Pääministeri Juha Sipilä (kesk) ja valtiovarainministeri Alexander Stubb (kok) ovat päässeet liian helpolla viimeaikaisista koulutukseen ja sivistykseen liittyneistä kommenteistaan.

Puheet ”kaiken maailman dosenteista” ja kolmen kuukauden kesälomista professorin uralle hakeutumisen motiivina ovat ehkä nousseet heidän huulilleen ennalta ajattelematta. Ne kuitenkin kertovat esittäjiensä arvomaailmasta ja asenteista enemmän kuin ehkä haluamme uskoa.

Ministerien lausumissa ei ole kyse vain koulutukseen kohdistettavien leikkausten puolustelusta. Niistä heijastuvat myös laajemmin sivistyksen ja jopa demokratian perusteiden asenteet. Demokratiaan kuuluu elimellisesti kriittinen ja moniääninen keskustelu. Johtajat ovat demokratiassa kansan edustajia ja palvelijoita. Siksi heidän tulisi kestää rankkaa arvostelua ja jopa epäasiallista kritiikkiä.

Voidaan kysyä, miksi juuri dosentit joutuivat Sipilän purkauksen maalitauluksi. Ehkä kysymys ei ollut sattumasta. Dosentit ovat ainakin ”hyviä vihollisia”, joiden on vaikea puolustautua yhdessä. Dosentit edustavat korkeinta akateemista sivistystä ja huomattavaa erityisosaamista omalla alallaan.

Ehkä syynä Sipilän reaktioon oli se, että akateeminen sivistyneistö, johon dosentit kuuluvat, on liki ainoa ryhmä, josta hallituksen politiikkaan enää uskalletaan suunnata terävää arvostelua.

Sipilän lausuman ongelmallisuutta voi havainnollistaa myös pohtimalla, mitä olisi tapahtunut, jos vaarattomien dosenttien sijasta kritiikin kohteeksi olisi joutunut jokin muu (”kaiken maailman”) ammatillinen, poliittinen, etninen tai kielellinen ryhmä.

Yksittäisiltä ylilyönneiltä kuulostavat lausunnot heijastavat itse asiassa vakavaa demokraattisen poliittisen järjestelmän arvojen vastaista ajattelua. Tähän ajatteluun kuuluu tieteen ja siihen liittyen rationaalisen ajattelun vastainen lähestymistapa. Tämä on tullut esille monien viime vuosina väkisin – vastoin asiantuntijoiden näkemyksiä – ajettujen lainsäädännöllisten uudistusten valmistelussa.

Kuten Stubb on toistuvasti todennut, päätöksentekijöiden katseen on oltava tulevaisuudessa. Menneiden kaiveleminen on turhaa, samoin syyllisten etsiminen. Tähän kohtaan kiteytyy vakava ajatteluvirhe. Jos emme tunne asioiden taustoja ja tutki ilmiöiden syitä, emme voi etsiä niihin rationaalisia korjauskeinoja. Syiden pohdinnan pitäisi olla kaiken yhteiskuntapolitiikan lähtökohta. Se estäisi usein yhden ainoan ratkaisumallin ajamisen ”yhteisen edun” nimissä ainoana vaihtoehtona.

Myös se, ketkä ovat mahdollisesti vastuussa tehdyistä ratkaisuista, on demokratiassa olennainen kysymys. Valta ja vastuu ovat sidoksissa toisiinsa. Vastuukysymysten pohdinnan kautta voimme ainakin torjua poliitikkojen rakastaman argumentin, jonka mukaan me kaikki olemme yhtä lailla syyllisiä – esimerkiksi talouden ahdinkoon.

Käynnissä näyttää nyt valitettavasti olevan voimakkain tieteen, tutkimuksen ja tieteellisen sivistyksen vastainen kampanja sitten maailmansotien välisen ajan.

Olisi hyvä olla selvillä, missä mennään ja millaisiin yhteiskunnallisiin ja ideologisiin konteksteihin tällainen politiikka on menneinä vuosikymmeninä liittynyt.

Jukka Kekkonen

oikeushistorian ja roomalaisen oikeuden professori

Helsingin yliopisto

Hogge Wild posted:

ei sitä tuossa tekstissä fasistiksi kutsuttu

ja vaikka sinä sipilää fasistiksi kutsutkin ei se sitä ole. se on jäsen pedokultissa ja puheenjohtajana suomen suurimmassa rikollisjärjestössä

SnowblindFatal posted:

It's extremely naive to think that the immigrants won't be a huge drain on our budget.

Ligur posted:

There is a ton of news that it was a cigarette stump?

Google Pirkanmaa & tupakantumppi.

Or was this intentional murder torch you speak of some other event.

Hob_Gadling posted:

Actually, this is bullshit. If it was that simple, you could build huge pyres where you burn stuff.

Bensa posted:

Just adding this to the fire conversation: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/wp...-redir=0&w=1200, from this article.

Not sure why this wasn't clamped down on right away by the staff. Smoking indoors in "public" buildings is only allowed when there is a well ventilated area built with ignition resistant materials. Its again just one of those things we expect people to know, and these small things are going to take a lot of integration to deal with. Hard to consider those during planning since they don't really strike out as obvious things to go over.

Also that sauna is now ruined, smoked-in rooms are pretty much written off.

Hob_Gadling posted:

Come on, now you're being literally Jerry.

Zudgemud posted:

Now, all you nerds stop talking about your sauna politics and angry birds economy and answer this:
1. Does anyone who have grown up without serious bouts of starvation actually like memma, or is this sweet disgusting rye paste eaten more out of tradition than culinary preference?
2. Which is the superior laatiko? Personally I have a preference for the rotabaga one.
3. What part of the country has the best/worst christmas dish? From what I have heard the savolax region is hot poo poo.
4. Why do you have tar in candyform? Just to trick Swedish liquorice lovers into poisoning themselves?

Rexroom posted:

Speaking of fascists, our local Illinois Nazis "Suomen Vastarintaliike" declared on Thursday they're going to turn this country into a nationalist socialist country where racism and white supremacy rules, while democracy and equal rights would be a thing of the past. So all-in-all, they're pretty fascistic. Some would say that they're a bunch of Nazis. Except like DanTheFryingPan correctly stated, it died in 1945, so clearly they're mistaken.

Then we have these guys:


These "Soldiers of Odin" - What's with the English name? Why a viking god? - have appeared around a week or so to "protect women from rapists" by beating up funny looking foreigners patrolling the streets. It's probably a pure coincidence that the founder of the Kemi branch is also a member of SVL. Small circles and so on.

Jerry Cotton posted:

The point of Jouluham as I see it is that it keeps well so you can eat it all through the holiday because gently caress cooking on the second Christmas day when you can just carve a slab of ham onto a slice of Joululimppu and eat it while wondering whether or not you'll survive until Closingiainen.

OhYeah posted:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ice-reveal.html

Not exactly Finnish news but since I'm not allowed to post in the Cathedral of Cancer that is the Scandinavian thread, I might as well leave it here. I'm pretty sure there are additional "isolated cases" in Finland as well. Good times.

OhYeah posted:

I'm well aware of the reputation of Daily Mail, but since there are people arrested in Nordic countries for participating in the massacres in the Daesh controlled areas, it doesn't seem to implausible even if the extent of the problem is somewhat exaggerated.

SnowblindFatal posted:

Hahah yeah that argument is totally null. Maybe if Hitler felt bad in the end, he should've been given a new chance!

Ligur posted:

Whoops. drat.


Welcome, bro. The people here are much less intolerant than the ScandiPol posters, you'll fit in pretty well. Some shouting might ensue but nothing serious, I suppose.

edit:


Only a liberal leftie D&D poster can try and make good of something horrible as ardently as a Homma/RASMUS -poster can invent a conspiracy theory. As long as it's just not white people, middle class guys or Westerners, anything goes it seems.

Pretty sure HUMAN "4chan" FISH (might have been a joke though) and Oldsmobile would not dismiss or explain for the best posts, mobile pictures or instagrams of dead children, burning enemies, and holding the beheaded cranium of a foeman so quickly if you would replace the person having this material with a SVL, SD or a TF member or voter.

Kudos to most of the thread not doing the same though.

As for the former, I'm pretty sure they would be screaming bloody murder and about the fascist threat. I know a jerrycotton is already typing a funny post to the tune of "lol all tf members literally have pictures of beheaded hiekkikset on their phones" but I'm quite sure there isn't a single poster in this thread who knows anyone who has anything like that on any device, it's not loving normal.

"LOL who are cares, teh most important thing is to maeks them productiv member of sociaty" would never be said if it were KKK clansmen holding removed heads and loading death porn on their mobile devices.