Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Mister Sinewave posted:

im an animal, i dont deserve to post in this thread

You are all animals unless you're drilling within 0.005". And doing poo poo with a file is no excuse to be farther than 1/64th out. Now draw file those edges clean of burrs because that's actually aggravating me.

shalafi4 posted:

machining

So is there any particular reason you're using drill parallels rather than proper machining parallels? Also, if you were just squaring the blocks off, why not use a flycutter or facemill? Both would give way nicer chip formation(I seriously hate endmill chip, nasty little loving needles)and a nicer surface finish too. Hell, flycutters can get down to single digit surface finishes surprisingly easily.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

MohawkSatan posted:


So is there any particular reason you're using drill parallels rather than proper machining parallels? ( Also, if you were just squaring the blocks off, why not use a flycutter or facemill? Both would give way nicer chip formation(I seriously hate endmill chip, nasty little loving needles)and a nicer surface finish too. Hell, flycutters can get down to single digit surface finishes surprisingly easily.

The drill parallels are a hold over from training actually.

Two main reasons.

One, if you've had a lot of practice with them you can get parts to a little higher tolerance with them. They're more sensitive to detecting if a part if out of square. (drawback being there's a chance your part can flex more)

Also it was machined in a student machine shop at a university. Most of the normal parallels are beat to hell and back.

The shop I learned in there were a LOT of freeking tiny parts so they turned into a go to.


When you start making things like this for practice it shows what you're usually doing (all done on the same mill and vise in the the squaring photos)




That block is 0.200" on an edge for those curious.


As for the end mill.

Again student shop.

With the exception of a single shell mill for our CNC mill all of the tooling was single point flycutters. Skinning that much stainless I'd probably have resharpen them at least twice. The indexable fly cutters we had made my boss insisted in making them out of 316 stainless.... they're fine for aluminum but they cut like rear end in stainless (the cutters themselves flex)

Also if you have feeds/speeds set correctly and doing face milling with an end mill you *should* wind up with flat plates instead of needles (They'll look like someone took a C and hit it with a hammer)

If it starts needling either it's not being fed fast enough or the end mill is starting to dull.

The end mill is also variable helix. I didn't think it would make much difference but it freeking chewed through without any issues. And I wasn't really worried about surface finish with the exception of "it's flat"... nearly all of the sides were going to be machined off in later stages.

shalafi4 fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Apr 24, 2016

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

*mimes trying to get everyone's attention*

*holds up one finger*





*holds up two fingers*









*holds up three fingers*

"insert photo of 3rd part here"










Up next



shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Ok update time guys.

I have all of the components machined and photos taken of most of them in progress. (missed the rails from being in a huge rush to complete them)

Right now the hold up is getting enough cash to have 3 barrels made with custom 9.3mm twists.

Why custom twists?

standard 9.3mm twist is 1:12 which works fine for things like a 9.3x62 mauser. Our problem is with the rounds being subsonic the twist rate isn't tight enough to stabilize the rounds. We're looking at 1:10 or ideally 1:8 twists. That being said most companies (that didn't do the nice version of telling us gently caress off) want $250~$300 a barrel above what they already cost. (another would charge us normal for them but wanted a minimum order of 40 barrels)


Right now we're looking at getting 2 AK pattern ones done and as a higher priority have a barrel made for a bolt action (I found a savage axis 2 on clearance so that's our most likely candidate)

Combine that with life getting thrown into a blender on high for the past 10 months is why the updates died off.


Alright. back your regularly scheduled update :P

Last time we got all the blocks roughed out and the holes machined/bored out.

Now lets get the rail portions done on the front and rear sight blocks.

Lets start with the front sight block





It's grabbed long ways upwards and the top is faced. (I had accounted for them being oversize so the roughing to size could be a little rough with no issues)

*ACTION SHOT*





Top rail cutouts are roughed out.






Then a finishing pass cleans the side walls and bottom up. (I left 0.007" on both the sides and the bottom after the roughing process for the finish pass to cleanup)



Behold the shininess.



The next 3 operations all look like this.



First the holes are spotted with a countersink. (to keep the drill bit from walking)


Then the hole was drilled out for a 4-40 tap drill diameter (@65% thread engagement)


Finally that tiny little counterbore was spotted with a 3/16" end mill.


(don't have photos)

The rear sight block had the same set of processes done except there's 4 holes instead of 2.

Up next.... side profiling

Edit: As always feel free to ask any questions!

shalafi4 fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Sep 2, 2016

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

rip miso beno


I'm glad you're still doing this! Keep up the good work.

The Eyes Have It
Feb 9, 2008

Third Eye Sees All
...snookums

I'm just going to reiterate that as someone who does no metal work other than taking a welding class that I enjoyed, I find this fascinating.

Javid
Oct 21, 2004

My sole partiality is to that delectable spiced meat. Any additional confederation of vegetables shall not compromise the pie as I see it.

So where did you find to make suitable barrels?

not caring here
Feb 22, 2012

blazemastah 2 dry 4 u

Is that a Tormach? How's it treating you?

wheres my beer
Apr 29, 2004


Tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty


Fun Shoe

shalafi4 posted:

.... minimum order of 40 barrels ...


You know what you must do.

share your receiver drawings and sell the other components

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Javid posted:

So where did you find to make suitable barrels?

Shillen wanted the 50 barrel minimum (but would do any twist rate)

(might have these backwards it's buried in my email)

Pac-noir wanted a ~$600 setup fee and then run the barrels

Douglas (I think) wanted an additional ~$225 a barrel


not caring here posted:

Is that a Tormach? How's it treating you?

Yup! That one is an 1100. Once we switched away from the Mach 3 based controller it worked really really well. (It couldn't helix in Mach 3... it would loose/gain counts in the Z direction )



Miso Beno posted:

You know what you must do.

share your receiver drawings and sell the other components

I'll magically materialize the 15K needed for that and get back to ya (honestly once we get the bugs out of the cartridge and loads we might start offering barrels for Savage actions)

Javid
Oct 21, 2004

My sole partiality is to that delectable spiced meat. Any additional confederation of vegetables shall not compromise the pie as I see it.

I hope you do start selling 'em, cuz I wanna put one on a handi soooo bad now.

Doctor Grape Ape
Aug 26, 2005

Dammit Doc, I just bought this for you 3 months ago. Try and keep it around for a bit longer this time.


Javid posted:

I hope you do start selling 'em, cuz I wanna put one on a handi soooo bad now.

Perhaps if you were to give him a handi...

Herr Tog
Jun 18, 2011



Grimey Drawer

How would this poo poo work with a bolt action? gently caress terrible?

Lathespin.gif
May 19, 2005


Pillbug

shalafi4 posted:

wanted a minimum order of 40 barrels

Miso Beno posted:

You know what you must do

Build a gundrilling and cut rifling machine?? Agreed


Especially since you're running CNC, is there a reason you're not milling integral picatinny rails into the front blocks, rather than tapping and bolting on rail sections?

n0tqu1tesane
May 7, 2003

She was rubbing her ass all over my hands. They don't just do that for everyone.

Grimey Drawer

Lathespin.gif posted:

Build a gundrilling and cut rifling machine?? Agreed

Given the work he's already doing, something like this shouldn't be too hard to make.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twwQbpwZz9w

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Lathespin.gif posted:

Build a gundrilling and cut rifling machine?? Agreed


Especially since you're running CNC, is there a reason you're not milling integral picatinny rails into the front blocks, rather than tapping and bolting on rail sections?

Please make a bunch of extra rear blocks if they fit x39 AK. Kthx.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Herr Tog posted:

How would this poo poo work with a bolt action? gently caress terrible?

A 9x39 round? should work fine

Savage used to make a 7.62x39 4 round magazine for their model 10 series rifles.

If you exchange the base plate out it'll fit into a new Axis or Axis 2 rifle

AND PTG (Pacific Tool and Gauge) makes PPC bolt heads for Savage rifles. For those who don't know PPC cartridges use the same case head size as 7.62x39 and 9x39


This is the first one we're planning on doing actually. Mainly because of safety for when we're doing load development.

Lathespin.gif posted:

Build a gundrilling and cut rifling machine?? Agreed


Especially since you're running CNC, is there a reason you're not milling integral picatinny rails into the front blocks, rather than tapping and bolting on rail sections?

Not to jump ahead much but.



We figured if we're doing it we might as well be dapper fuckers in the process. *insert smiley with top hat and monocle*

Shaocaholica posted:

Please make a bunch of extra rear blocks if they fit x39 AK. Kthx.

As is they wouldn't fit a standard AK because the barrels on the 9x39's have to be significantly larger. (although it really wouldn't be difficult to resize it to fit a normal AK barrel)

Herr Tog
Jun 18, 2011



Grimey Drawer

shalafi4 posted:

A 9x39 round? should work fine

Savage used to make a 7.62x39 4 round magazine for their model 10 series rifles.

If you exchange the base plate out it'll fit into a new Axis or Axis 2 rifle

AND PTG (Pacific Tool and Gauge) makes PPC bolt heads for Savage rifles. For those who don't know PPC cartridges use the same case head size as 7.62x39 and 9x39


This is the first one we're planning on doing actually. Mainly because of safety for when we're doing load development.






We figured if we're doing it we might as well be dapper fuckers in the process. *insert smiley with top hat and monocle*



So if it should work fine what is a bolt gun I could just swap barrels and poo poo out of when I want insanity and when I want regular russian poo poo?

Also that spiral metal pattern is all the way my jam.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Herr Tog posted:

So if it should work fine what is a bolt gun I could just swap barrels and poo poo out of when I want insanity and when I want regular russian poo poo?

Also that spiral metal pattern is all the way my jam.

If you had a Savage style bolt action all you'd need to do that is a vice sturdy enough to spin the barrel nuts off and on with and "GO" headspaces gauges of both calibers.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


Rail height looks high but maybe I'm not looking at it right. What are your plans for iron sights?

Herr Tog
Jun 18, 2011



Grimey Drawer

shalafi4 posted:

If you had a Savage style bolt action all you'd need to do that is a vice sturdy enough to spin the barrel nuts off and on with and "GO" headspaces gauges of both calibers.

well that sounds like a shopping trip

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Shaocaholica posted:

Rail height looks high but maybe I'm not looking at it right. What are your plans for iron sights?

Irons we were planning on using low profile AR sights most likely. Also the front and rear blocks are the same height.


Herr Tog posted:

well that sounds like a shopping trip

If you really want to go down that road let me know and I'll look up the print number from PTG so you would get the correct 9x39 headspace gauge

not caring here
Feb 22, 2012

blazemastah 2 dry 4 u

shalafi4 posted:

(It couldn't helix in Mach 3... it would loose/gain counts in the Z direction )

HUH

What's she like accuracy wise? I heard that down to a thou was not too much of a problem, can you reliably get into +/- tenths?

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E


shalafi4 posted:

Irons we were planning on using low profile AR sights most likely. Also the front and rear blocks are the same height.


I didn't even know such things existed. I'll have to check that out. I guess I'll just have to see the design once its assembled. The rail still looks high. So with an optic attached with a low mount, were you expecting to get a good cheek weld with standard AK stock profile or a raised stock/comb?

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

not caring here posted:

HUH

What's she like accuracy wise? I heard that down to a thou was not too much of a problem, can you reliably get into +/- tenths?

yea... it drove us batshit crazy till we figured it out.

1/2" end mill helixing out a 11/16"ish hole 0.500 deep would go gain ~0.060" DOWN in the Z direction.

Apparently it was a known enough problem that Tormach had started developing their own controller/software (ours was one of the transitional ones, it shipped with Mach 3 but they put the new controller into the computer so we didn't have to buy a new controller card)

I didn't do super extensive testing on mine but the few really high precision tests I ran on it looked promising. The biggest issue with trying to get +/- tenths with it wasn't in controlling it. The machine just isn't rigid enough to consistently do tenths at any real speed.

That being said (going off memory) doing a single rough/finish pass in Stainless was +/- 0.0006 in aluminum it tended to be about half that. (that was generally over an 1100 and 3 of the 770's that I tested)

The 1100 (which was my baby when I worked there) tended to cut more +0.0006/- 0.0001 in stainless which makes me think it was more a rigidity issue.

There was one batch of parts that we had to run lots of the same thing in aluminum (tensile testing samples out of aluminum) We had it dialed into cutting a couple tenths over MAX in 7075 aluminum (the samples were ~1/4 thick and about an inch wide)

Another thing that makes me think more rigidity than control issues. I got talked into helping a research group out by machining two grips out of CXMX-4 (It's the nickel superalloy that GE uses in the high temperature, high pressure regions in jet turbines) The stuff makes Stainless steel look like putty.

If I took light cuts it has a baby butt smooth finish. If I took just a little more the end mill passes start ramp-stairstepping like a mill head is out of tram (the heads on a Tormach don't pivot)


Put it this way. If I had the cash to throw down to buy one of the Tormach's but not enough to get a baby Haas or similar I'd do it without looking back. For the money I think they're amazing machines, just realize they do have their limitations. (generally preferred to take 2 lights cuts at higher speed than 1 heavy one)

shalafi4 fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Sep 6, 2016

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

double post because and 1am on 4 hours of sleep

Shaocaholica posted:

I didn't even know such things existed. I'll have to check that out. I guess I'll just have to see the design once its assembled. The rail still looks high. So with an optic attached with a low mount, were you expecting to get a good cheek weld with standard AK stock profile or a raised stock/comb?

It shouldn't be *too* bad of a weld with low height irons. I'd have to grab my notes to double check the math but the sights would wind up ~0.75" above where a normal AK sight would be. Tall? yes... unmanageable? shouldn't be?


There's actually 2 sets of plans for stocks. Since myself and the other guy working on the AK variants basically are going for opposite ends of the 9x39 spectrum


For mine I'm probably going to make an adjustable height cheek rest and it's going to have a ~20" barrel


My friend's is going to be side folding and potentially either a 16" barrel or a 10" with pinned flash hider until he can get paperwork to clear and unpin it.


Basically mines more the marksman's rifle end and my friend is going more for the close quarters rifle like the 9x39 bullpup or vehicle crew rifle.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


I'm still following this, and worshipping.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

MohawkSatan posted:

I'm still following this, and worshipping.

Got any questions on any of the parts?

bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010


I understand like, maybe 1/3 of this what happens in this thread, but I did it. Keep up the awesomeness.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Ok all.

Who would be interested in a savage rifle chambered in 9x39?


Reason I'm asking, MacGowen has the best overall deal on cutting custom twist barrels in 9.3mm.

They're charging a flat setup fee then any number of barrels that get ordered at the same time are normal price.


If there's enough interest I have a thought. Get a group order together, and if there's enough people interested also get with PTG and have them make another reamer and headspace set that we could mail around for everyone to get their barrels chambered. (I need to talk to MacGowen and they may be able to get them chambered for us as well with my reamer as another option)

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


If I wasn't broke and in the wrong country then I'd be in this in a goddamned second.

That said, how much? Just outta curiosity and faint far off dreams

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

MohawkSatan posted:

If I wasn't broke and in the wrong country then I'd be in this in a goddamned second.

That said, how much? Just outta curiosity and faint far off dreams

A precut 26" barrel for a Savage action with the receiver threads, recessed muzzle crown and threaded for 5/8x24 is ~$310

Without the bells and whistles it's ~$200


Reason I'm asking around is the setup charge is $400. Which for one or two barrels makes it a bit pricy.

Javid
Oct 21, 2004

My sole partiality is to that delectable spiced meat. Any additional confederation of vegetables shall not compromise the pie as I see it.

How much for a straight up blank? Like, 1" round stock with a rifled hole down it of whatever >16" length they do them in.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Javid posted:

How much for a straight up blank? Like, 1" round stock with a rifled hole down it of whatever >16" length they do them in.

Anything up to 26" is $165 for a chromoly barrel
Stainless is 240


plus whatever the split setup fee winds up being

Monocled Falcon
Oct 30, 2011


I'd love to get in on this!

Rechambering a weapon in 9x39mm was always my 'never gonna happened' dreams.

B4Ctom1
Oct 5, 2003

OVERWORKED COCK


Slippery Tilde

interesting stuff
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3244588&pagenumber=494&perpage=40#post464805190

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar


Read through the bullet weights and velocities.


Really interesting concept but whoever got that data is smoking something or did the conversions wrong.


a 7.62x39 shoots a 123gr bullet ~2350fps

There's not *that* much case capacity to be had by turning it into a straight tapered case (the neck on a 9x39 is only ~0.05")

I seriously doubt that they're shooting a 170gr bullet nearly as fast... let alone a 230 gr bullet @2000 fps

plus bottle necked cases *generally* burn powder more efficiently.

Herr Tog
Jun 18, 2011



Grimey Drawer

shalafi4 posted:

Ok all.

Who would be interested in a savage rifle chambered in 9x39?


Reason I'm asking, MacGowen has the best overall deal on cutting custom twist barrels in 9.3mm.

They're charging a flat setup fee then any number of barrels that get ordered at the same time are normal price.


If there's enough interest I have a thought. Get a group order together, and if there's enough people interested also get with PTG and have them make another reamer and headspace set that we could mail around for everyone to get their barrels chambered. (I need to talk to MacGowen and they may be able to get them chambered for us as well with my reamer as another option)

The best I could say is that down the road, like years, I would be able to get in on this without making some bad decisions.

shalafi4
Feb 20, 2011

another medical bills avatar

Herr Tog posted:

The best I could say is that down the road, like years, I would be able to get in on this without making some bad decisions.

Get in with us to order a barrel then put it in storage till you can get the rifle to go with it :P


Seriously, the setup fee is $400, we're getting it split between however many of us that can order now. Doing it now you'd save enough money to buy a savage axis as the surrogate action.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Herr Tog
Jun 18, 2011



Grimey Drawer

sorry it needs to go to the home man, all the gun money is going to Ars because

  • Locked thread