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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I forgot you have to be orthodox to do aliyah as a convert. Actually I forget how seriously religious some of the israeli status quo is. My main non-apartheid image of Israel is like, Tel Aviv nightclubs. At the bare minimum you'd think they'd be happy for any white dude with a slip from a rabbi and a desire to murder arabs. There are plenty of secular folks who would in fact love to run things just like you're thinking. The problem is that Israel's secular authorities gave a lot of power and leeway to religious folks back in the early days. Now that influence has become a serious stumbling block as the deeply Orthodox Chief Rabbinate seeks to exert and expand its power, while simultaneously becoming more and more religious and fundamentalist. For those who were born Jewish, it can lead to a very weird situation where you can legally qualify as Jewish enough to make aliyah, but can't legally qualify as Jewish once in Israel. The immigration authorities use a somewhat loose definition of Judaism, but once you're in the country, all Jewish religious matters are handled by the Chief Rabbinate, who have no intention of giving the slightest bit of ground to non-Orthodox Jews. And the rabbinical courts seem to like to gently caress around with people - there's been cases of them digging into the family history of people who were born and raised Orthodox, only to find some reason to disqualify their dead ancestor's conversion and retroactively revoke Jewish recognition from all of that person's descendants. This isn't just a matter of getting the right word on a slip of paper, either. Several aspects of Israeli life are overseen exclusively by religious authorities, with no secular alternative - and if those religious authorities don't accept you, they can legally deny you. In particular, Israel does not have true civil marriage. It only recognizes domestic marriages performed by official state religious authorities, meaning that a Jewish person can only marry in Israel if it's done by a rabbinate-approved Orthodox rabbi following the Orthodox marriage customs. If the rabbi doesn't approve of the pair, they can refuse to perform the marriage. That's why gay marriage and interfaith marriage are de facto banned in Israel, even though they're not officially illegal, and that's also why secular couples with no recognized religious affiliation were unable to marry in Israel (though a 2010 law added the ability for secular couples to get a civil union). So if the Rabbinate doesn't recognize you as Jewish, an Orthodox rabbi won't give you the time of day. In that case, your only options for true marriage are to get an Orthodox conversion from a rabbinate-approved rabbi, or to go overseas and marry in another country. This also has an additional "fun" side effect. Since only religious marriages are recognized in Israel, it makes sense that only religious divorces are recognized in Israel. But Orthodox Jewish divorce has a rather problematic aspect, one that's caused no end of trouble or grief over the years (and which was fixed in Conservative and Reform Judaism). Specifically, it requires the husband to willingly write up a document freeing the wife from her marital obligations, and physically deliver it to her. If the man refuses to provide this document (which is called a "get"), then the marriage cannot be dissolved as long as the husband is alive. And most importantly, in Orthodox Jewish law, there is absolutely no way whatsoever to circumvent or bypass this requirement, no matter what the circumstances. A rabbinical court can decree that the husband must provide a get, but it's still up to the husband to do it himself. If the husband refuses to grant the divorce, there is no recourse, other than to use social pressure to try to convince the husband to change his mind - and you can't use too much pressure, since the get is invalid if the husband is compelled to write it against his will. And since Israeli law leaves divorces solely in the hands of religious authorities, there's no way to get a civil divorce, and a divorce-refusing husband can indefinitely keep their wife in the marriage against her will. That's not to say that the Israeli state has done nothing about this, though. Israeli law empowers rabbinical courts to impose various civil penalties on get refusers, such as revoking their driver's license or freezing their bank accounts. In extreme cases, they can even face criminal charges and be sent to prison until they write up that divorce document. But even the full force of Israeli law does not give itself the ability to terminate a marriage without a rabbi agreeing that the proper religious practices were followed. Which is especially silly because, as I said before, this is pretty much unique to Orthodox Judaism. Conservative Judaism has invented like half a dozen loopholes and tricks to circumvent the need for the husband's permission to end the divorce, and Reform Judaism just drops the whole get system entirely. But the only Jewish authority recognized in Israel is the deeply Orthodox Chief Rabbinate. Of course, the problem of get refusal is not unique to Israel, and it can in fact get much messier in other countries where rabbinical courts don't have any legal authority at all. But at least in other countries, religious marriage is typically optional, and a civil divorce can often be obtained even in cases of religious marriage. Since Israel puts all matters of marriage and divorce under the control of religious authorities, a lot of people are pushed into dealing with these kinds of issues. This ended up being quite a post, but it's an example of how even small aspects of Israeli life can end up pretty far down a religious rabbit hole, due in large part to the privileges and powers granted to religious authorities. There are a lot of political fault lines in Israel between secular Jews and religious Jews, and the government's historical reluctance to clearly take a side or intervene in clearly bad behavior has only allowed the friction to grow over the decades. Increasingly insular and extreme groups clash both politically and on the streets, and sometimes I wonder (from my distant vantage point across the ocean) if the various factions of Israeli life would be able to stick together at all if they didn't hate Palestinians even more than they hate each other.
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May 26, 2022 18:35
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Yeah my brother and his wife had to come get married overseas because dealing with the rabbinate is a huge pain in the rear end. then they had an "illegal" wedding back in Israel. (I put illegal in quotes because it's not commonly enforced) Also if you're Christian or Muslim apparently there are some Christian and Muslim religious authorities that handle those marriages and I have no idea how any of that works. My guess is that it doesn't work well.
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May 26, 2022 20:40
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Thanks for that post Main Paineframe, very insightful. I have a question that's somewhat local but figured I'd ask here as well since it's not getting much traction in the LAN forum. I've been asked to photograph a demonstration this Sunday, May 29th. It's a counter-demonstration against the Jerusalem Day demo in a very predominantly Jewish neighbourhood (Bathurst and Sheppard in Toronto). In the past, I've heard these demos can get quite heated, since the JDL have a strong presence out there. I'm worried about a couple of things; obviously first and foremost I don't want to be assaulted or caught directly in any violence. I highly doubt this is the case but God forbid I actually do find myself taking pictures of actual anti-semitic content, I will nope out quick. Lastly and maybe most important, I don't want to be made by any of the JDL and become the target of harassment or attempts to destroy my livelihood. The group is 'CanadianDefenders4HumanRights'; their online presence seems peaceful and righteous, but at least one friend I have who's familiar with the movement is unfamiliar with them and advising me against going. Your thoughts?
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May 26, 2022 20:46
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nvrgrls posted:Yeah my brother and his wife had to come get married overseas because dealing with the rabbinate is a huge pain in the rear end. then they had an "illegal" wedding back in Israel. (I put illegal in quotes because it's not commonly enforced) You're right, it doesn't. I've never really dug into it but iirc this also means that cross-religion and cross-ethnicity weddings are illegal in Israel.
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May 26, 2022 21:08
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Miftan posted:You're right, it doesn't. I've never really dug into it but iirc this also means that cross-religion and cross-ethnicity weddings are illegal in Israel.
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May 26, 2022 21:55
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https://twitter.com/AyaIsleemEn/status/1530264676583497731?s=20&t=JfJW4xnR9B6p6rt66OW4Jw
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May 28, 2022 12:18
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the thread title still says 2019 wasn't that a different time
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May 29, 2022 03:27
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mahershalalhashbaz posted:the thread title still says 2019 At least three elections ago.
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May 29, 2022 04:02
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In our hearts it's still 1948 and we'll treat the Palestinians accordingly!
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May 29, 2022 04:46
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I can change it, are there any suggestions for good subtitles or keep the current "Apartheid, alienation, and hummus. genocide too"
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May 29, 2022 18:30
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Any suggestion I can come up with would be rejected and get me probated, just keep the old.
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May 29, 2022 18:35
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Israel/Palestine: The Genocides Of Tomorrow, Today
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May 29, 2022 19:05
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Israel/Palestine: all apartheid, no Sikhs.
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May 29, 2022 19:11
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I grew a pair and attended the counter-demo in Toronto today. It was a really good turnout, despite being in the heart of a zionist neighbourhood we drowned 'em out and there was very little confrontation except for the Riders of the Covenant (lol) or whatever that zionist biker gang is called, getting a police escort to their bikes and then spitting on a young woman before riding off (without helmets). I'll post some photos later on today, maybe tomorrow.
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May 29, 2022 21:27
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Main Paineframe posted:There are plenty of secular folks who would in fact love to run things just like you're thinking. The problem is that Israel's secular authorities gave a lot of power and leeway to religious folks back in the early days. Now that influence has become a serious stumbling block as the deeply Orthodox Chief Rabbinate seeks to exert and expand its power, while simultaneously becoming more and more religious and fundamentalist. Wow thats far worse than I understood it to be. So short of cishet orthodox converts they basically are just giving you a middle finger if you convert and then make aliyah (or even try to).
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May 30, 2022 00:17
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By popular demand posted:In our hearts it's still 1948 and we'll treat the Palestinians accordingly! Mister Speaker posted:whatever that zionist biker gang is called
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May 30, 2022 02:12
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Miftan posted:Israel/Palestine: all apartheid, no Sikhs. Sikh and destroy
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May 30, 2022 02:12
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Apartheid antifadas and assassinations it's the hummus and genocide thread
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May 30, 2022 02:15
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mahershalalhashbaz posted:that what Yep, they're called the Riders of the Covenant, lmao. Their FB group's tagline says "to protect the Judeo-Christian way of living," which lends credence to my suspicion that they're more likely zionist Christians. They have vests and patches and everything.
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May 30, 2022 02:22
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Mister Speaker posted:Yep, they're called the Riders of the Covenant, lmao. Their FB group's tagline says "to protect the Judeo-Christian way of living," which lends credence to my suspicion that they're more likely zionist Christians. They have vests and patches and everything. mahershalalhashbaz fucked around with this message at 02:25 on May 30, 2022 |
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May 30, 2022 02:23
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Mister Speaker posted:Yep, they're called the Riders of the Covenant, lmao. Their FB group's tagline says "to protect the Judeo-Christian way of living," which lends credence to my suspicion that they're more likely zionist Christians. They have vests and patches and everything. Lol
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May 30, 2022 02:23
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     Are the Neturei Karta guys actually problematic in any way? Skimming the Wikipedia page about them I don't really see it, but then again I know some zionists who've twisted flimsier arguments into cudgels. These guys seemed on the level, though I didn't chat with them much. Rabbi Weiss (the guy burning the flag) is apparently well-known worldwide. He used my lighter. :3
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May 30, 2022 03:11
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Mister Speaker posted:
Reading up about them it seems that they don't want a state of Israel because they believe that only the Messiah can bring about a Jewish state, not a secular Jewish movement, so next time feel free to ask them what role the Palestinians will play when their messiah comes to bring about Israel. Couldn't find much about the views on women, LGBTQ issues and such but I'm willing to say that just like most ultra orthodox movements their views on those issues might be deemed "problematic".
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May 30, 2022 05:24
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If the Messiah came, maybe all the stupid inter-religious poo poo would cease to be an issue. Surely the true Chosen of God wouldn't have to deal with such bullshit; if they do, it's practically proof that they are not actually the Messiah.
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May 30, 2022 05:32
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NKs are not really a part of the common conversation among Israeli citizens, they're a very small splinter of ultra orthodox Judaism. That said and despite their other regressive politics they are unlikely to ever be a problem to Palestinians.
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May 30, 2022 05:33
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I heard on npr that despite the Prime Minister claiming he called for 'zero tolerance' the police arrested all of two Israelis for their rampage earlier during the flag march where they were changing 'death to Arabs' and 'Mohammed is dead'. And that most of the people arrested were Palestinians. Charming.
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May 30, 2022 20:11
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Play posted:I heard on npr that despite the Prime Minister claiming he called for 'zero tolerance' the police arrested all of two Israelis for their rampage earlier during the flag march where they were changing 'death to Arabs' and 'Mohammed is dead'. And that most of the people arrested were Palestinians. Charming. Pardon my ignorance, but I thought it was an article of Islamic faith that Muhammad IS dead - in the sense that millions of hajji visit his tomb in Medina every year, and he called himself a mortal man, who presumably is dead awaiting resurrection and eternal life at the right hand of the Father or something (?), just like all believers. I get that it's just meant to be disrespectful and inflammatory, but I also want to get a handle on how dumb it is
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May 30, 2022 20:30
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jerusalem is a pre-israelite cultic site and must be destroyed and never rebuilt to fulfil the terms of the torah tbh we have three separate religions now worshipping the city, like the actual stones and mortar of the city itself, and they have all been murdering each other over the city for thousands of years now. meanwhile we have had no indication from heaven that the city actually is holy, it's been destroyed over and over and they just keep trying to rebuild it. everybody's got it wrong. if everyone just left jerusalem tomorrow and burnt it to the ground, there would be peace in the middle east. it's a cursed place. a beautiful place, but a cursed place mahershalalhashbaz fucked around with this message at 03:40 on May 31, 2022 |
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May 31, 2022 01:56
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mahershalalhashbaz posted:jerusalem is a pre-israelite cultic site and must be destroyed and never rebuilt to fulfil the terms of the torah tbh I don't think seriously pissing off three religions is a great way to bring about peace but that's just me.
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May 31, 2022 02:02
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Madkal posted:I don't think seriously pissing off three religions is a great way to bring about peace but that's just me.
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May 31, 2022 03:39
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jiffypop45 posted:Wow thats far worse than I understood it to be. So short of cishet orthodox converts they basically are just giving you a middle finger if you convert and then make aliyah (or even try to). Non-orthodox conversion has been a political football between secular and religious Israelis for a while; it's known to be a big raised middle finger to the diaspora, whereas the Rabbinate's position is that non-orthodox Jews aren't real and please stop pretending they exist. The current government (through its right-wing minister of religious affairs from Yamina, Matan Kahana) tried to push through conversion reforms (primarily aimed at the half million or so ex-Soviet Jews in Israel who aren't considered Jewish by the religious courts) and failed utterly when the Rabbinate said they wouldn't recognize *any* conversions if they lost their monopoly over designating who was qualified to do conversions. https://www.timesofisrael.com/religious-services-minister-unveils-government-plan-to-reform-conversion-system/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/chief-rabbi-freezes-all-conversions-to-judaism-in-protest-of-planned-reforms/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/coalition-stumbles-into-last-legislative-week-before-passover-break/ quote:Sources close to Kahana told the Israel Hayom newspaper that Lau was wielding “a nuclear bomb” against those seeking to become Jewish. quote:MK Bezalel Smotrich, who leads the opposition’s far-right Religious Zionism party, threatened retributive interference in Islamic affairs should Ra’am support the conversion bill, tweeting that “if [Ra’am] harms Judaism, we will do the same to Islam when we return to power.” Lum_ fucked around with this message at 19:35 on May 31, 2022 |
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May 31, 2022 19:26
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Unlike a lot of "changing the status quo would be a huge headache" where I'm willing to accept Hanlon's razor (malice and indifference version), I never got the issue with kicking the rabbinate to the curb. Ministry of Interior can determine whether someone is Jewish based on documents, you can get married at your local city hall, divorce at family court, burial according to local ordinances. For instance, there's some sort of religious authority that's supposed to regulate grave plots, tombstones and epitaphs according to some standard - and no one gives a poo poo about what they have to say. Statues, photographs, whatever. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Jun 1, 2022 |
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May 31, 2022 21:15
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solomon was a bad man
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Jun 1, 2022 02:05
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https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnewsvideo/comments/v1fck9/france24_reporter_assaulted_during_live/ France24 reporter assaulted during live broadcasting by Israeli settlers while other settlers taunt the other journalists and celebrate the killing of American Palestinian journalist Shareen Abu Akleh on May 11th by the Israeli army
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Jun 1, 2022 03:46
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Well it took longer than we thought, but the Israeli parliament is being dissolved and it’s back to elections again https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1538922666157125632?s=21&t=Lz4XceVVQDukQGmL4p2hFQ
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Jun 20, 2022 19:57
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Because clearly what is needed is a straight standing prime minister with some fresh ideas, such as Bibi!
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Jun 20, 2022 20:02
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has the case against netanyahu even made any progress since the last election? it feels like at this rate it'll be years of constant elections to keep him from granting himself immunity
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Jun 21, 2022 00:02
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:has the case against netanyahu even made any progress since the last election? it feels like at this rate it'll be years of constant elections to keep him from granting himself immunity A number of anonymous but embarrassing disclosures against the authorities prosecuting Netanyahu have slowed things considerably. Decade-old recordings of potentially suspicious behavior by the AG who indicted him, an illegal police surveillance scandal that was alleged to impact witnesses in the trial, and more. It's all stuff that aligns well with Netanyahu's PR strategy of claiming he's being oppressed by corrupt authorities that'll tell any lie or commit any crime if that's what it takes to get him removed. A cynical watcher might even go so far as to suggest that perhaps a powerful and well-connected person had been quietly stockpiling blackmail materials all this time, just in case they needed something to derail any eventual attempt to overthrow them. No actual proof of that, though, it's just me going "wow, isn't that some real interesting timing".
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Jun 21, 2022 01:09
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FlamingLiberal posted:Israel’s fifth election in three years. 
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Jun 21, 2022 01:12
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So I gather the "left" candidate who was supposed to become PM after half the term was over now won't be PM at all? How shocking, nobody could have predicted this!
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Jun 21, 2022 11:53
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