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(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe)
 
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Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
A really wicked skull-headed bird

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Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

Rigged Death Trap posted:

I'd take an evil genius over malicious idiots.

In theory, the malicious idiots would be bad enough at PR that the evil genius would have to at least pretend to support the humane choice.

In reality the bill to remove all aid to palestine just got bipartisan support in both houses of congress lmao

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
The UKIP party is also noticably more single-issue racist as-of late, because Labour managed to successfully bring in most of the voters that were genuine euroskeptics.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

Xander77 posted:

In the only liberal democracy in the world, one might expect them to be declared a heat group

Now I'm imagining an Israel immigration company that secretly just trains applicants to be wrestling heels.

When did the obsession over white jews start in Israel? The furthest back to before the whole "this crowd in Israel is literally using neonazi signs" I can think of were when it came out that the government was prescribing ethiopian jews with contraceptions (without telling them what it does or side effects), and knesset shenanigans where arab-israeli voters were basically ignored.

Was there a catalyst even further back than those?

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Russia is a depressed capitalist hellhole catering to the whims of an oligarchy among a dead society. That's not fascism, it's late-stage capitalism taken to its logical extreme.

Fascism isn't a catch-all for "bad country".

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

Darth Walrus posted:

So you haven’t noticed how Putin has spent the past half-decade at the heart of a resurgent global far-right movement, then? Or how he’s been none-too-subtly cribbing notes from Actual, Card-Carrying Fascist Aleksandr Dugin?

You dont need to be a fascist to encourage ideals abroad. You're still equating "thing I dont like" with "fascism".

If that was the measure of fascism, America would be thrice the fascist hovel that Russia is.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

Gonzo McFee posted:

The logical extreme of late stage capitalism is fascism.

That's often the end result of capitalism, but not its logical extreme. Capitalists prefer a democratic state because they prefer a weak state, which is antithetical to a fascist state, and the typical endpoint of a capitalist society. A democratic state offers the framework for easily replaced, expendable leaders unable or unwilling to exert control over the local elites, which is the exact opposite of the balance of power in a fascist state.

Basically, extreme capitalism provides a state weak enough to be seized by a Strongman that can appeal to the military branch. Putin could be that person, or he could be kicked out in half a moment by a half-lucid 18 y/o security member the moment he starts stepping on oligarch toes. We don't know yet. What we do know us that Russia's government has hilariously weak reach outside of the capital, which doesn't line up with fascist accusations.

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 18:54 on May 29, 2018

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
On a slightly positive note Nikki Haley, US ambassador to the UN, who made news by walking out when a palestinian envoy started speaking, was completely humiliated and displayed clear-as-day the hilarious contrast of opinion between the US and the rest of the world.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Their statement didnt mince words at all, either.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

Your Parents posted:

It helps to shrug off ethical conflicts when you literally think you're a special holy person and the people you're killing are subhuman animals.

I think a larger component is that their state has, right from birth, repeatedly told them that the rest of the world hates them and will lie and do anything to make them look bad. Similar upbringing as during Apartheid SA.

When that mentality has been drilled into you, framing a dead medic becomes "settling the score", denouncing parents whos' child has just died becomes "fighting propaganda". Necessary evils to combat (in their minds) a global conspiracy against jews and their rightful homeland.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

please knock Mom! posted:

Nah, they have agency, they're not idiots. If you're a twenty-something and fervently defend your country doing this stuff, you're doing so willfully and shouldn't get to hide behind the childhood you had or the state propaganda you were fed. At that point you're just an rear end in a top hat being an rear end in a top hat.

How do you do that when every authority figure in your life has told you that outsiders will do anything they can to lead you astray and harm you?

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Nukes are totally scary and we need to keep countries from getting them, PS Israel is now trying to buddy up with Fuckin' Iran after they have access to nuclear material :v:

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Get well soon avshalom

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
How many other countries have had their ministers of education spitball hosting ethnic orgies?

Like, I hope at least some of the hebrew tweets are saying "what the gently caress"

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Wasn't the entire (given) point of betraying the burgeoning gently caress Bibi coalition to have a stable government for covid?

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

i say swears online posted:

the polls say otherwise

Does Gantz really have a significant enough base for elections anymore? You'd think getting soundly humiliated on both ends for betraying everyone to become netanyahu's pet opposition would severely hamper "vote for me again THIS time so we can get rid of Bibi!" Rhetoric.

He's decisively shown that he'd side with Likud over Literally Everyone Else when given the opportunity.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
It's kind of impressive how infantile the settlers are. It's not enough that they are politically catered to at-length, they have to also be allowed to pelt the people they've yet to displace with rocks, and if one of their stupid kids gets himself killed crashing a car while running away from a kid-gloved police then that's the police's fault and it's time to riot.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

steinrokkan posted:

Oh yeah, you guys sure cracked the case, religion has been vanquished, time to pat yourselves on the back and go celebrate, preferably somewhere far away.

If the morals of christianity only matter to you because they're allegedly attached to a real figure then I think that's on you more than anyone. If one can accept that Jesus wasn't literally a wizard, I'm not sure why it's a bridge too far to accept that Jesus was several preachers.

The Exodus is also hotly contested, last I checked.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

Main Paineframe posted:

Probably better in the short-term, and worse in the long-term. With Netanyahu gone, Likud would easily reabsorb parties like Blue and White or New Hope, which are basically just Likud factions that broke off to oppose Netanyahu, and they'd probably have a good shot at winning Lieberman back too.

Would Ra'am helping Netanyahu be the best outcome in terms of the I/P conflict and being less of an ethnostate? This description makes it sound like the removal of Netanyahu would allow the current political status quo to resume, just without the 'we have an embarassingly corrupt leader' part, whereas having an arab party as kingmaker might curb those impulses?

I'm kind of skeptical because, as an outsider, it seems like every attempt to manipulate Netanyahu ends up failing.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Is there any other historical precedent for a country facing unrest, downright race riots, and a zombie government deciding that the best course of action is a ground invasion of a nearby city?

It's not like Israel is a stranger to breaking ceasefire agreements, you'd think one would get their ducks in a row before this. The improved rockets must have really jostled them.

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 10:25 on May 13, 2021

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

BougieBitch posted:

Gotta say, among the relatively good domestic news and the withdrawal from Afghanistan I was sort of hoping that American foreign policy would be a bit less blood-gargly for the next few years, but yeesh the response to this has been absolutely heinous from just about everyone you could think to name. It sure would be nice if Israel would stop making people crowd together in bomb shelters until after this global pandemic has been meaningfully addressed, but good loving luck getting literally anyone in English-speaking media to say that!

Not to go too hard on you, but I'm not sure why anyone would have assumed Biden would bring better foreign policy. He brought on Anthony Blinken. A recurring beat during the election revolved around Trump's ineptitude WRT regime change, and the return of competent hawks who dont order ice cream during CIA meetings.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
I doubt they'd ever do it because the electoral left is pretty spineless, but are there enough Palestine-sympathetic house members to shut down legislation? I feel like "stop supporting this atrocity or the only legacy you'll have is a $1400 check" would be one of the few ways the Biden administration could be pushed away from this bullshit.


GreyjoyBastard posted:

you may be interested to discover that there is a second tweet in that very thread

https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1393707044251881472?s=20

The Palestinian Authority is projected to not even be the majority government in the West Bank, should he ever permit the elections to happen. This means virtually nothing as it still involves him freezing out and seeking to delegitimize the predominant government in Palestine.

This isn't a revolutionary change in rhetoric, it's Biden recognizing that the compliant administration is on shaky ground and in need of legitimization.

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 04:55 on May 16, 2021

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Samson Option isn't controversial, it's just saying the quiet part out loud (that nuclear weapons are defensive deterrences against actions which existentially threaten a state).

Saying this as someone who isn't exactly positive towards Israel, there's far worse things about Israel to criticize.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

Flannelette posted:

They're launching them at the cities of the invaders obviously. The point is they seem to openly say they might use nuclear weapons as a response to a conventional invasion like NK does which is effectively saying you are holding the whole world hostage to prevent such an invasion happening or succeeding.

I mean, this is the insinuation of any nuclear armed state. It's why the world has a vested interest in India & Pakistan tensions, and why the US flipped its poo poo at Cuba having missiles stationed despite the fact that Russia could nuke the US from their country. It's why the countries most guilty of foreign intervention are also the greatest advocates of nuclear disarmament.

If your state is being existentially threatened, it's in your best interest to make that everyone's problem.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
https://twitter.com/AP/status/1394260581201371146?s=20

Tony Blinks is a classic foreign policy scumbag, so it seems somehow notable that he's rebuking an Israel narrative

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Both the C-SPAM and this D&D thread have been (rightfully) pessimistic about what's happening right now, but I think this article is a surprisingly negative (as in skeptical of Israel's power, Haaretz has always been willing to be critical of its state) with regards to this most recent barrage.

This Is Israel’s Most Failed and Pointless Gaza Operation Ever. It Must End Now

quote:

As of its ninth day, Operation Guardian of the Walls in Gaza has turned into Israel’s most failed and pointless border war ever, even when measured against the tough competition from the champion league of the Second Lebanon War, and Operations Pillar of Defense, Cast Lead and Protective Edge in Gaza. We have been witness to a serious military and diplomatic failure that has exposed major deficiencies in the army’s preparations and performance and in the leadership of a confused and helpless government.

Instead of wasting time in a useless effort to create an “image of victory” while causing death and destruction in Gaza and upending lives to Israel, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu must stop now and agree to a cease-fire -- and hope that the failure will be forgotten by public opinion as quickly as the Mount Meron disaster. In a more perfect world, it would be proper to add here “and order a thorough house cleaning of the Israel Defense Forces.” But criminal defendant Netanyahu, who is fighting to keep his official residence on Balfour Street, has neither the authority nor the political power to lead such a needed change.

These are the biggest problems revealed so far in preparations for and conduct of the war:

1. Israel had focused its attention militarily over the last decade on the “campaign between the wars” in the north and the struggle with Iran. Gaza was regarded as a secondary front that could be dealt with through economic measures – by Qatar’s funding of Hamas with Israeli backing; by a certain easing of the Gaza blockade, such as allowing building materials in; and by the (justifiable) investment in defensive measures, first and foremost Iron Dome and the underground tunnel barrier on the Gaza border, which has proven itself by frustrating attempts by Hamas to penetrate Israel by land and minimizing harm to border communities.

Hamas was viewed as a bad neighbor, but one that was weak and isolated. The one issue that interested Israeli public opinion was the periodic debate over the return of Israeli prisoners and the bodies of soldiers.

As far as we know, no intelligence official warned that Hamas could with a small effort escape the cage Israel had put it into and emerge at the head of the Palestinian struggle for al-Aqsa, as well as widening the rift between Israel and the new administration of President Joe Biden.

2. Due to the intelligence failure in estimating Hamas’ intentions and abilities, a tactical intelligence failure ensured: The military hadn’t amassed enough quality targets in Gaza whose destruction could have caused the collapse of Hamas’ willingness and ability to attack Israel’s home front. The air force has hit many targets that Hamas will have to rebuild, but that hasn’t been enough. The flight hours and ammunition expended by the military have an economic cost, just like Hamas’ tunnels and rockets. As Gen. Israel Tal once wrote: “When strategy is derived from tactics, battles are won and wars are lost.”

You can feed the public with news broadcasts arrogantly talking about “the painful blows we’ve delivered to Hamas” and showcase the pilot who killed an Islamic Jihad commander – while forgetting that this was an advanced fighter jet with precision armaments attacking an apartment building – as a modern-day version of Judah the Maccabee or Meir Har-Zion. But all these layers of makeup can’t cover up the truth: The military has no idea how to paralyze Hamas’ forces and throw it off balance. Destroying its tunnels with powerful bombs revealed Israel’s strategic capabilities without causing any substantive damage to the enemy’s fighting abilities.

Assuming 100, 200 or even 300 fighters were killed, would this bring down Hamas rule? Or its command and control systems? Or its ability to fire rockets at Israel? The shrinking number of quality targets is evident in the growing number of civilian casualties as the campaign has continued.

3. A year of the coronavirus inured the Israel public to closed schools, empty streets and a shuttered airport. It has demonstrated resilience in the face of rockets from Gaza, as it did in the face of a pandemic from China. Instead, the public trauma has focused on the collapse of coexistence between Jews and Arabs inside Israel more than it has on the external conflict. Nevertheless, Hamas has severely damaged the fabric of life in Tel Aviv and the south, and the military doesn’t appear capable of stopping it after a week and a half of firing.

4. Israel’s land forces have been consigned to the marginal role of deceiving and confusing the enemy into descending into tunnels in the hopes of trapping them through airstrikes. Even this doesn’t seem to have succeeded – large numbers of Hamas fighters were not inside the tunnels that were bombed.

It’s good that no one has been contemplating a real ground operation in Gaza, which would lead to heavy losses. Israel has no goals that would justify such an operation like that, and this time there aren’t calls to “go in” and invade Gaza, even from the far right of the political map. In any case, the fear is that the land forces aren’t aren’t capable of entering the fray and are unprepared for combat.

5. It is worthwhile recalling the words of the angry prophet, Maj. Gen. (res.) Yitzhak Brik, the sharpest critic of the army brass in recent years, who warned that the next war would be fought on the home front, that Israel had no answer to attacks involving thousands of missiles, and that its land forces aren’t able to fight.

Brik was talking about a future war with Hezbollah, whose fighting power is much greater than that of Hamas. But the current conflict should be seen as a taste of what is to come, and it doesn’t look good. Iron Dome has brought down the great majority of rockets and has saved many lives, but it has struggled to cope with concentrated barrages. The Israeli home front has never been hit by such a quantity of weapons. Ashkelon has turned into a ghost town, and homes without shelters have been abandoned. But all of this is tiny compared to what Hezbollah is capable of doing.

In the face of such limited achievements, Netanyahu would do well to stop now and hand Biden a small achievement by calling the immediate cease-fire that the president has been seeking. There’s no reason in continuing to pound away at the Gaza sandbag while bringing life in Israel’s south and center to a standstill. Fixing the military, it seems, will have to wait till Israel has new leadership.

It seems to me like Netanyahu is desperate to have a victory out of this, but i'm not sure if there is one; even with figures that are most assuredly inflated and projected their declared damage to Hamas seems rather pathetic. Hamas has declared that they've months of missile stockpiles & have demonstrated the ability to hit at Israel's core. They are remaining steadfast in their ceasefire conditions (stop incursions on the Al-Aqsa mosque, do not evict palestinians in Jerusalem) which Netanyahu absolutely cannot accept without looking like he's lost, and the classic Israel tactic of leveling every civilian utility has taken far greater public scrutiny than ever before.

He's successfully broken up this latest opposition coalition attempt, but how does he finish this stunt without looking impotent to the right?

All they can really do is make Gaza citizens more miserable, and while that might get their rocks off it doesn't achieve much.

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 19:43 on May 19, 2021

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Obviously that has succeeded, talks have broken down and unless I'm forgetting anything Israel will be heading into a new election, but how long will it remain an advantage? Are the israelis going to get tired of the sirens and the qassams and the declaration that the IDF have totally inflicted a new crippling blow against Hamas? Will that fatigue settle in before or after the next elections results?

I get that the people in the illegal settlements are wingnuts accustomed to getting into fights/burning crops/hiding in shelters, but how much of an appetite does Tel-Aviv have for rockets and sirens and bunkers?

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

Space Cadet Omoly posted:

So the move the US should make is to stop sending Israel money because they're using that money to commit genocide, right?

Seriously asking, am I missing something or is that the correct read on what's happening right now?

Yes. Everyone's pessimistic on that happening though, even after Bibi publicly refuted Biden's "we're getting close to a ceasefire guys! Private diplomacy!" rhetoric.

One of the few things that could get Israel to kowtow to outside forces is if their pointless massacres harm the US money spigot.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
X-posting from the C-Spam thread because it's pretty impressive.
https://twitter.com/MattCrossin/status/1395130631697289217?s=20

Only 150 out of 65,000 palestinian construction workers operating in Israel showed up to work. 40 million in losses, might have some companies sweating if they keep striking.

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 03:22 on May 20, 2021

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
As I mentioned in USNews, we make up 28.8% of Israel's export economy. We give them billions in military funding. We protect them from international pressure. We could effortlessly run their blockade by sea or through Egypt (who is paid by us, not Israel, to uphold their blockade) to insert military personnel which would immediately complicate future incursions. There are a lot of things the US could do to force Israel to stop, that we aren't going to do.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

mobby_6kl posted:

How would inserting US military personnel into Gaza fly with the locals? I'm not sure this is such a great solution.

If only there would be some way of asking Hamas if they would be receptive to having US or UN forces on the border dissuading the IDF. Nah, we'd have to completely surprise them, this is exactly like Iraq.

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

It's simple: the problem was not enough occupation. We'd be hailed as liberators!

What's your take on the other points that you've glided past to cheerlead on this one, out of curiosity?

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Did Hamas get its two conditions out of the ceasefire?

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
https://twitter.com/Anthony/status/1395474400611348480?s=20

Besides the obvious "Israel only gets a few more hours to destroy gaza buildings" advantage, this seems like a loss for Hamas. They didnt get any assurances on their two ceasefire conditions, Israel got to gently caress poo poo up for free.

Makes me wonder if Israel did hit Hamas harder than we thought; if they were successfully evading bombings you'd think they would have held on as global action continued to mount. The strike dealt tens of millions of dollars in damages to Israel's economy, you'd think they would prefer to stoke that.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Oh yeah obviously, in terms of damage to Gaza vs damage to Israel the former was devastated. I was thinking more Hamas' military personnel and operations.

Maybe they don't really need it since everyone seems to hate Abbas, but "we stopped Israel from stealing Jerusalem homes, what has the PA done?" Seems like it would have been a nice feather in their cap.

At least those 'evictions' have been delayed for a month. Hopefully they meet just as much local resistance then as well.

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 21:22 on May 20, 2021

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Nobody here wants civilians to die, but they are interested in seeing blame correctly apportioned.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

HootTheOwl posted:

So a few years ago people were calling the Quassam a rocket made of piss and I'm trying to find a source because did they mean actual urine?

They're fueled by sugar and potassium nitrate, which can be extracted from urine (though they just buy fertilizer afaik).

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

It doesn't seem like there would ever be a world they were looked fondly on.

There's plenty of scenarios, however unlikely, that would codify Hamas as heroes among palestinians on the level of Arafat. The most obvious one being if Israel accepted their proposal for a ten year truce (in exchange for a return to 1967 borders and a lifting of the blockade, they've been proposing this for as long as they've been in government & codified it in their second charter); if they somehow pulled that off they'd be responsible for a secure, largely autonomous Palestine free of West Bank settlers and bombing massacres. Not a single palestinian would give a poo poo about their religious extremism.

Speaking of such though, there's a schism in Hamas between the hardliners and the pragmatists, largely as a result of expanding to cover governmental roles and the assassination & replacement of core leaders. It's what lead to the 2017 Hamas Covenant, which moderates upon the first in a number of key ways.

Now, if your argument isn't of extremism but the tactics they employ which makes their image impossible to reform, I'd heartily recommend looking at what both anti-Apartheid organizations and zionist terrorists were up to before they won. The latter got away with bombing a hotel full of civilians just to destroy evidence implicating their leader in terror attacks. Not even a blip beyond "we totally meant to send a warning but it got lost in the mail, we cool?"

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
https://twitter.com/vv1lder/status/1396142932583874563?s=20

2 hours in and Wilder's statement has 75,000 likes, being retweeted by Julian Castro and Keith Olbermann of all people.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012
Imo "kill bibi" jokes seem a bit more suited to c-spam's Israel thread, just the correct vibe for that kind of thing.

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Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012

Starpluck posted:

Prominent U.S. democrats generally appear to be anti-Netanyahu but pro-Israel.

The harshest public stance we see from Democrats towards Israel is that they are just against Netanyahu but still support Israel. That is as 'harsh' as it gets and the extent of their criticism towards Israel. What do you think we will see now?

This is one of my biggest concerns. A shitload of people are still getting forcibly removed from their homes in Jerusalem, I'm certain a lot of liberal politicians and columnists are going to glide over this for some "Bibi is gone, the evil has been vanquished!" Sweetheart period.

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