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My hope is that we get a POV from a wight at some point in the books (pulling for Asha, no one else seems likely) that explains what wights are like.
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Dec 18, 2015 07:03
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kater posted:Are the zombies in the book semi-sentient? Like the two that get brought to Castle Black bee-line towards Mormont, is that happy coincidence because the watch is incompetent, some mind control poo poo, or -and this is where I'm leaning- do they want to be cool mr zombie around town that killed the important guy and are trying to be the best zombie they can be. Mind controlled by white walkers but the wights you mention may have retained some memories (knowing exactly where to find Mormont) even if their goal (killing Mormont ) was an order from WWs.
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Dec 18, 2015 07:54
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GRRM loves having Hive Minds/Telepaths in his stories. So they are pretty much directly controlled by the white walkers.
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Dec 18, 2015 09:02
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The description in the first book, when Jon lights that first Wight on fire, is that as soon as the flames touch it the body collapses like the strings on a puppet being cut. The implication is that the Others are essentially warging or controlling the bodies, and they may be able to access the memories of the bodies, much like how Wargs actually "become" the animals they are inhabiting.
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Dec 18, 2015 12:45
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NutritiousSnack posted:Quite frankly the worst thing about Hardhome is that it featured really good writing and politicking by Jon Snow to the point the rest of Night Watch story made even less sense, and make you wonder why Jon Snow got so dumb when talking to the Watch as opposed to the Wildlings. For real, this was very frustrating. When you have your commander showing back up on your doorstep with a subdued Wildling army, all of whom will tell the same tale about the coming apocalypse, you'd think they would realize that some poo poo is going down in the north.
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Dec 18, 2015 16:50
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I like the idea that the White Walkers are collectively like a malignant cancer and that they don't have certain abilities until they appropriate them from a being that does. Like they can warg into and control wights and giant ice spiders because at one point they changed a stark/wildling with greenseeing/warging powers into a white walker. According to that weird youtube conspiracy theory nut, one of the villains of GRRM's previous stories was a race of hive-minded creatures with no individual identity whose sole purpose was converting a powerful telepathic human (aka Bran) so they could steal his powers and enslave the universe.
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Dec 18, 2015 16:53
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Max posted:For real, this was very frustrating. When you have your commander showing back up on your doorstep with a subdued Wildling army, all of whom will tell the same tale about the coming apocalypse, you'd think they would realize that some poo poo is going down in the north. They’re not sending Hornfoots, they’re Wildings that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems. They’re bringing giants, they’re bringing crime. They’re rapers and some, I assume, are good people.
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Dec 18, 2015 17:15
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None of the people that were stabbing Jon were people that would be talking to any of the wildlings in the night they had been back. I doubt many people were just shouting about seeing their dead family members stand up on the beach and look at them. Jon only told Sam about what happened. The attackers had been planned the assassination while Jon was gone. There was little time for any talk from his return until his demise. It's entirely reasonable that the men who have been conspiring against Jon Snow did not talk to him or any of his friends in the night after his return. It's not like he had been back for weeks and they had strategy meetings discussing the looming threat. He gets back home, talks a bit with his confidant, and then gets shanked by people that had been planning for days/weeks.
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Dec 18, 2015 17:57
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kater posted:Are the zombies in the book semi-sentient? Like the two that get brought to Castle Black bee-line towards Mormont, is that happy coincidence because the watch is incompetent, some mind control poo poo, or -and this is where I'm leaning- do they want to be cool mr zombie around town that killed the important guy and are trying to be the best zombie they can be. It's not really clear. The only ones we really see that aren't part of a massive horde is the one that tries to kill Mormont in the first book.
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Dec 18, 2015 18:16
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Mr. Nice! posted:None of the people that were stabbing Jon were people that would be talking to any of the wildlings in the night they had been back. I doubt many people were just shouting about seeing their dead family members stand up on the beach and look at them. Jon only told Sam about what happened. The attackers had been planned the assassination while Jon was gone. There was little time for any talk from his return until his demise. It's entirely reasonable that the men who have been conspiring against Jon Snow did not talk to him or any of his friends in the night after his return. It's not like he had been back for weeks and they had strategy meetings discussing the looming threat. He gets back home, talks a bit with his confidant, and then gets shanked by people that had been planning for days/weeks. Well, that makes the whole thing even more stupid: if that was the case, why not just let him out? He was doomed outside and would die without the need of any stabbing and, more importantly. before bringing in thousands of widlings. Thorne opened the gate for them. They are less than a hundred people and now they have to deal with thousands of wildlings and even giants who were faithful to Jon. What Thorne and friends are going to do about it now? Send potato kid to kill then all? Tell then "well that unfortunately was a mistake, you have to go back out there now, sorry"? Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Dec 18, 2015 |
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Dec 18, 2015 18:17
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Thinking about that sequence in terms other than "Important plot moment that needs to happen" and "Jon Snow needed a big personal bad rear end moment before the big plot moment" isn't fruitful. Jon's plot in ADWD is actually rather subtle, it's subtle to the point where after a first reading most people don't really grasp the source of the tensions between Jon and his officers, it doesn't really make sense if it only focuses on the wildlings and that's exactly what the show went with. Jon Snow is a progressive good guy who is not a bigot, Alliser is an old school bigot, Jon gets murdered for being Lincoln. Anything more complex has been thrown out of the window, Alliser lets Jon and the wildlings through the wall so he could stab him later that episode. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Dec 18, 2015 |
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Dec 18, 2015 18:25
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Stannis confirmed dead dead, right?
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Dec 18, 2015 21:13
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Roman Reigns posted:Stannis confirmed dead dead, right? Him and Myrcella by way of HBO recaps.
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Dec 18, 2015 21:27
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what would be the point of having Stannis live at this point anyway. He's had two failed campaigns back to back leading to the utter annihilation of his forces BOTH times. Even before that he wasn't very popular. No one would back him at this point, even if he is the one true heir. I'm guessing people are just upset he won't become Night's King Stannis after Jon claims his throne.
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Dec 18, 2015 22:22
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The stabbers's plan doesn't make sense because they aren't acting rationally. They are not thinking things through beyond "we gotta kill this guy". Almost all assassinations of leaders are like that; the people will instantly realize they're better off and change, rather than the people behind the assassination being instantly hated. I figure they replaced the Bloodraven actor because they wanted the part to be more important so getting a better known actor like Von Sydow would suit them.
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Dec 19, 2015 02:20
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They missed an opportunity to bring him back as the deranged fire zombie Lord Stonehart. It'd be dumb, fanservicey and there's no way they'd be able to string Dillane back in but at least it'd be interesting. Probably.
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Dec 19, 2015 07:20
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Ague Proof posted:They missed an opportunity to bring him back as the deranged fire zombie Lord Stonehart. It'd be dumb, fanservicey and there's no way they'd be able to string Dillane back in but at least it'd be interesting. Probably. lord stanheart
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Dec 19, 2015 07:29
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Jon's assassination would have been more palatable if Allister wasn't in on it, and he turned out to be a begrudging, crusty mother fucker who still took his vows very seriously and was legit upset at the death of his lord commander, no matter what differences they had.
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Dec 20, 2015 12:34
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Ague Proof posted:They’re not sending Hornfoots, they’re Wildings that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems. They’re bringing giants, they’re bringing crime. They’re rapers and some, I assume, are good people. Thorne is literally Donald Trump is what you're telling me
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Dec 20, 2015 14:18
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Ague Proof posted:They’re not sending Hornfoots, they’re Wildings that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems. They’re bringing giants, they’re bringing crime. They’re rapers and some, I assume, are good people. lol
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Dec 20, 2015 14:25
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counterfeitsaint posted:Jon's assassination would have been more palatable if Allister wasn't in on it, and he turned out to be a begrudging, crusty mother fucker who still took his vows very seriously and was legit upset at the death of his lord commander, no matter what differences they had. I was hoping that this was going to happen going into the last season. I don't think Alliser was part of the mutiny in the books, Jon had assigned him to run one of the other watch castles by then. I really don't think it fit his character, or at least, wasn't written in a way that fit his character. Jon had shown him a great deal of respect after being made Lord Commander, and he seemed like the type that would uphold his vows over all, especially if he felt his skills were being put to good use. I think the gist of it was supposed to be "Look how deep the hatred between these two groups goes, even the best of the Night's Watch would rather die than work with the wildlings", but they didn't do a good job, either in the book or the show, of making it feel like a real Israel/Palestine situation. Aside from the real weirdos like the cannibals or the Lord of Bones, the wildlings didn't seem THAT different from Westerosi, and neither medium did a very good job of playing up the irreconcilable differences between them or focusing on the massacres that have gone on over the years to make the Night's Watch so suicidally unwilling to work together. And honestly, I don't know it would even be plausible when faced with a threat like the White Walkers -- I tend to think even the Middle East might show some unity if they were under direct attack by an army of IRL zombies led by Ice Aliens. Phenotype fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Dec 20, 2015 |
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Dec 20, 2015 14:57
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Phenotype posted:I was hoping that this was going to happen going into the last season. I don't think Alliser was part of the mutiny in the books, Jon had assigned him to run one of the other watch castles by then. I really don't think it fit his character, or at least, wasn't written in a way that fit his character. Jon had shown him a great deal of respect after being made Lord Commander, and he seemed like the type that would uphold his vows over all, especially if he felt his skills were being put to good use. In the books, Alliser is sent on a ranging after Slynt's execution and Alliser angrily believes Jon's just getting rid of him (since he could execute Alliser if he refuses), then says he'll be coming back for Jon one way or another. It's entirely fitting for his character in the book that if he weren't sent on a suicide mission he'd have joined the conspiracy. People were fond of the idea of Alliser not joining the conspirators in the show because since he's been painted as an rear end in a top hat and Jon's Night Watch rival, having him join the attack makes both them and him seem like plain old villains. If he doesn't join in, though, then the audience is more inclined to think about the conspirators' motivations since they don't just line up with being an rear end in a top hat. That job was mostly done in the show by Ollie, since he's meant to be sympathetic, but a lot of fans (on Something Awful, at least) can't get past him being a show-only character and that quote about Hill so it's not a popular move.
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Dec 20, 2015 16:45
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I think they found a formula with excellent audience results (*big battle on ep. 9, big cliffhanger on ep. 10) and decided to stick with it at every season. For this season, for the lack of better choices, they decided to go with Hardhomme for the big battle and Jon's death as the final cliffhanger. And then they adapted the plot to fit the formula. The results are not so good but I guess most show-only people were too shocked by his death to care. Also, Hardhomme was indeed awesome. Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Dec 20, 2015 |
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Dec 20, 2015 17:17
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Hardhome was episode 8 though.
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Dec 20, 2015 17:53
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Usually I don't mind misspellings but I just read "hardhomme" as "hard man" and that's a sexual innuendo if I ever saw one. Hardhome. A home which is hard (to live in). And heck I don't even speak french. Annnnnnnnnyway, the thing with 'Daggers in the dark' and why it absolutely sucked in the show is that in the books it's a big emotional scene and the mutineers actually cry as they stab Jon, they think he has to be removed but on a personal level they don't hate him, they actually admire many of his qualities. In the show it's all "I've been waiting to stab this uppity bastard since season one, this feels super good!", which sucks.
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Dec 20, 2015 18:00
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Gorn Myson posted:Hardhome was episode 8 though. yeah, that kinda destroys my theory then. Nevermind about it And "Hardonme". sorry
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Dec 20, 2015 18:02
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Dolash posted:In the books, Alliser is sent on a ranging after Slynt's execution and Alliser angrily believes Jon's just getting rid of him (since he could execute Alliser if he refuses), then says he'll be coming back for Jon one way or another. It's entirely fitting for his character in the book that if he weren't sent on a suicide mission he'd have joined the conspiracy. I think the show might have made a mistake by painting Allister a more sympathetic and complicated character (haven't read the books in a long time so I could be wrong) with his speech about needing to be tough on the new, mostly completely untrained recruits so they won't just die, with the added bonus of being a dick. So more like a drill sergeant. It's shown to be wrong but it's an understandable position considering how poo poo everyone except Jon is. In the books he seems to mostly just be extremely bitter over losing the Targaryen rebellion by following his vows and is just taking it out on everyone else, which adds a bit of irony with the Jon parentage stuff. Does he even especially dislike Jon because of who his father was? In season 4 he gets the action movie treatment with his fight scene with Tormund and shows a genuine commitment to the Watch. With the betrayal stuff the show went out of their way to cast the non-character Othell Yarwyck and then cast and recast Bowen Marsh but I can't even tell them apart and don't know if they were even named and I'm a turbonerd. I was expecting at least Bowen (who in the books has the moral dilemma and whole Cassius/Brutus thing) to do something memorable before the stabbing but maybe the writers decided to nix any ideas they had for something else. The only adult characters in the Watch who viewers will remember are Edd (who was at Hardhome), Sam and Alliser. You can't let the audience think a 10 year old boy ("oh no not Olly!") devised a conspiracy or risk giving them an emotional monologue because that's loving stupid and Olly is supposed to be sympathetic and will either be redeemed or die in a way that is supposed to make us feel sad. So maybe D&D originally decided to give Alliser a redemption arcs but had their backs to the wall and had no choice but to shoehorn himinto this role only despite being more complex he still hated Jon so there's no emotion for an et tu Ollie. Was Thorne's decision organic? Did he regret stabbing Jon or did he enjoy it? Bowen Marsh was traumatised by Wildlings in a battle so that is a part of his decision but I never got that it was the only reason. There's promoting a former male prostitute (and suspicions about his relationship to Jon), lying to the Watch about Mance and sending him on a secret mission for personal reasons, letting a deserter and the king of the wildlings do whatever the hell he wants. And it's also an offering to flay happy and unforgiving Ramsay who just threatened to destroy the Watch. Jon is also not that popular, in the books there's more of a focus on being a compromise choice that no one cares either way about because the Mallister-Ironborn hatred persists even in the Watch. I guess Jon's Stark roots factor in the same way. There's an early scene in ADWD where the other hands in the Watch notably Bowen refuse his offer of food/drink which GRRM inserted a direct quote from Julius Caesar to, so the conspirators been considering this for a while but haven't had the conviction to go through with it. After Jon makes his decision to desert it seems like they had to push it forward because they were on a time limit. Also the Benjen Stark lie is needlessly cruel and designed to hurt Jon and the readers -- I'm not being sarcastic in saying it was the cleverest and funniest thing all season. Ague Proof fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Dec 20, 2015 |
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Dec 20, 2015 18:30
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I never actually finished book 5 because after book 4 and the first 2/3s of 5 I was done with them, but I thought the whole reason for the mutiny in the books wasn't the wildlings, it was because Jon expressed his intention to abandon his post and go to Winterfell, breaking his vows. In that case it would have made perfect sense for Allister to stab is deserting rear end. Denying the zombie army food comes with a lot of consequences but is a strategically sound choice, it might suck, and it will take weeks to get the smell of wildling out of castle black, it there is logic in it, at least some of the watch should realize this. Leaving for stupid southern politics is less forgivable.
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Dec 20, 2015 21:57
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Jon getting stabbed by the watch in the books makes way more sense given his actions and what he states he is going to do.
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Dec 21, 2015 01:54
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Dolash posted:In the books, Alliser is sent on a ranging after Slynt's execution and Alliser angrily believes Jon's just getting rid of him (since he could execute Alliser if he refuses), then says he'll be coming back for Jon one way or another. It's entirely fitting for his character in the book that if he weren't sent on a suicide mission he'd have joined the conspiracy. The dumb thing though is that in the show Alliser was a better character than in the books. in the books he's just a fuckhead, in the show he at least had some more depth, like on the wall where he's asking Jon Snow what he thinks about him as a leader and pretty much gives him a bit of a heavy is the head that wears the crown speech, then he goes and fights like a bad rear end to do his duty. Better characterisation for him and more fitting with his arc would have been for him to be held back by someone while Jon is stabbed, or not in the scene at all. Having him thrust the knife just takes away all the development for the worse. His character is a cool idea in concept, a knight who defended the city but got sent to the wall simply because his side lost and then ends up training the bastard of one of the guys who's idea it was to send him there and later ends up having to answer to him. I dunno why but how they took his character in the show and built him into someone who should have been a supporter even if begrudgingly of Jon's to one of his assailants was kind of dumb.
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Dec 22, 2015 07:15
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Ague Proof posted:They’re not sending Hornfoots, they’re Wildings that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems. They’re bringing giants, they’re bringing crime. They’re rapers and some, I assume, are good people.
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Dec 22, 2015 08:44
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Let's make the North great again!
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Dec 22, 2015 08:50
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BlindSite posted:in the books he's just a fuckhead, in the show he at least had some more depth, like on the wall where he's asking Jon Snow what he thinks about him as a leader and pretty much gives him a bit of a heavy is the head that wears the crown speech, then he goes and fights like a bad rear end to do his duty. Better characterisation for him and more fitting with his arc would have been for him to be held back by someone while Jon is stabbed, or not in the scene at all. Having him thrust the knife just takes away all the development for the worse. There is no Alliser arc though, and no real development. He is consistently an rear end in a top hat who hates Jon Snow. He insults Jon Snow in almost every scene he appears in. He openly hates Jon Snow. Then he kills Jon Snow. Pretty consistent. What you call 'more depth' are mostly scenes where his hatred of Jon Snow isn't mindless and/or based in racism against wildlings. But that's it, it's not an arc. The problem with having him actually warm up to Jon Snow's ideas in any way and trying to stop his death is that you are loudly telling the audience 'Jon Snow's decision was 100% the correct one. Even this biased rear end in a top hat can see it!'
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Dec 22, 2015 16:58
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Let's not forget that one season before Alliser sent Jon Snow to deal with the Night's Watch deserters with a purposefully small band of supporters in the hopes that he would be killed in the attempt. It sucks that he was a part of the assassination because I don't think his character is that overt in his intentions, but it's not outside the realm of things that he would do, at least as characterized on the show.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:08
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Pedro De Heredia posted:The problem with having him actually warm up to Jon Snow's ideas in any way and trying to stop his death is that you are loudly telling the audience 'Jon Snow's decision was 100% the correct one. Even this biased rear end in a top hat can see it!' But Jon's decision was the 100% correct one, at least in dealing with the wildlings and white walkers. Every reader can already see that as clear as day (living humans > ice aliens and zombies) and it gets to the point of frustration that the ordinary Night's Watch doesn't seem to care. I think showing some acceptance from Aliser, or at least SOMEONE not directly in Jon's circle, would have helped it seem more plausible.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:28
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Phenotype posted:But Jon's decision was the 100% correct one, at least in dealing with the wildlings and white walkers. Every reader can already see that as clear as day (living humans > ice aliens and zombies) and it gets to the point of frustration that the ordinary Night's Watch doesn't seem to care. I think showing some acceptance from Aliser, or at least SOMEONE not directly in Jon's circle, would have helped it seem more plausible. Jon & other NW members actually saw it happening. There is no way the NW could not know about it.
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Dec 22, 2015 17:40
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Ague Proof posted:They’re not sending Hornfoots, they’re Wildings that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems. They’re bringing giants, they’re bringing crime. They’re rapers and some, I assume, are good people. This needs to be added to the op.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:10
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Elias_Maluco posted:Jon & other NW members actually saw it happening. There is no way the NW could not know about it. They had just got back and a lot of people probably hadn't spoke about the horrors they saw yet. It's not like they had been back for weeks.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:20
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Show has a bad habit of making decent to ok characters through the course of a few episodes and then has them act retarded for reasons that don't fit with the rest of the show. Examples: Stannis, Ellaria Sand, Alliser, Littlefinger w/ Sansa. Show is bad but at least it will be something new.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:25
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Elias_Maluco posted:Jon & other NW members actually saw it happening. There is no way the NW could not know about it. I'm talking about all the pushback and bad feelings, both in the book and in the show, from Jon letting the Wildlings settle the north, which was certainly the driving force behind the mutiny. I think it would have been much stronger if Alliser or some of the other Watchmen supported Jon's plan and showed it some grudging acceptance. It was frustrating to me that, aside from Sam and a few of Jon's buddies, the Night Watch seemed so hostile to the idea of allying with the Wildlings. Even before Hardhome, there were plenty of Watchmen to tell the tale of the zombie army at the Fist of the First Men. It seems implausible that basically none of them could see the wisdom in working with the wildlings against a foe like that, and Alliser would have been a good example of crusty and set-in-his-ways, but still smart and practical enough to listen to reason.
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Dec 22, 2015 18:40
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