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  • Locked thread
TheCool69
Sep 23, 2011
I'm suprised that less was made of the fact that there were no fingerprints on the car at all indicating that the murderer used gloves. Yet there were blood from Steves cut??

(Just finished episode 4 so sorry IF this is later brought up)

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kaworu
Jul 23, 2004

Basebf555 posted:

Edit: Just as one example, Avery's low intelligence may have led him to believe that his scrapyard was a bottomless pit that nobody would be able to find anything in. He literally may not have beleived the police were persistent or capable enough to go through each and every car in order to find Theresa's. The boards and sticks could have just been a half-assed afterthought. My overall point is we really don't have the first clue what's going on inside Avery's head, but we do have a person who was known to have met with him before disappearing and who's burned remains were found on his property. Those are the facts.

You sound a bit self righteous saying "those are the facts" because they're two facts taken entirely out of a much wider context. I obviously agree with you on principle, but I'm having trouble understanding your rationalizations. They seem unbelievably far-fetched to me. We don't know what's going on inside Avery's head, but we do have an idea of his character, and I don't think that's to be discounted. No matter how I look at, the "evidence" is incredibly inconsistent - with or without Brendan Dassey muddying up the waters.

Again, I really am not saying "STEVE IS UNEQUIVOCALLY INNOCENT!!" here. There's just so much more going on than an epic failure in police incompetence - remember that e-mail that Michael O'Kelly reads in the last episode, about the Avery family. I honestly believe that a *lot* of people we saw in that documentary shared his opinion, and viewed *all* of the Averys as Evil People and saw *anything* they did to get Steven Avery (or Brendan Dassey, or anyone they could nail) behind bars for life as an entire righteous act that was absolutely the best thing for everyone. I'm sure the civil suit really compounded this into something much more dire. These are motivations that are documented in the film and do make a great deal of sense. There's nothing far-fetched or wacky about it, unlike a lot of the evidence against Avery.

Honestly, if there was anything that sincerely convinced me - really and truly made me stop and think that there was a serious possibility that he could have done this - I would jump at it. Because frankly it really is better to think he's guilty of this crime, and I also don't exactly like people like Steven Avery anyway. But as it is, the possibility remains incredibly slim to me that he was guilty of this. I honestly think there was something not up-and-up with the Jury and that he very, very easily could have been been acquitted (and I think we can all agree at least that should have happened) but even that wouldn't diminish the possibility that he may have done this, however absurdly slim.

Gonzo McFee
Jun 19, 2010
Cops wouldn't murder someone and use it to prosecute an innocent man they'd just use a murder to prosecute an innocent man while bullying a child with learning difficulties to do it.

Gonzo McFee fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Dec 28, 2015

EL BROMANCE
Jun 10, 2006

COWABUNGA DUDES!
🥷🐢😬



It's important to remember this is a very one sided documentary that pushes you to think one way from the first episode onwards, and therefore is geared to ensure nothing really challenges the hero/villain characters. Like 'King of Kong' but a lot more serious.

That being said, holy poo poo. The crazy thing is they undoubtedly went into this expecting him to have a public defender, and it's only because he's been fighting for settlement is he able to secure the work of a team of pretty awesome lawyers. If he had a public defender, none of the investigation would've taken place and it would've been an open and shut case. They might not have even dragged the kid into it (can't remember where that part lies in the timeline compared to when Stephen hires his guys).

Anyway, if you liked that then watch this. Was mentioned in the thread earlier, but it's very good (made in 2000 and fairly low budget, but fits in with this spate of 'true crazy crimes you've never heard of' documentaries we're getting).

Murder on a Sunday Morning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWwf-uHrCIA

It has a happier ending, I promise. But holy poo poo. The whole time it's a split between 'this kid is either an amazing liar or this police department is horribly corrupt'.

EL BROMANCE fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Dec 29, 2015

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe

kaworu posted:

You sound a bit self righteous saying "those are the facts" because they're two facts taken entirely out of a much wider context.

I apologize if it came across that way, but I mean in the empirical sense those are two facts that aren't disputed. Theresa did in fact meet with Avery that day, she did in fact disappear shortly after meeting with him, and her remains were in fact found on his property. Those very basic facts usually go a long way towards telling you who committed the crime, under normal circumstances. That's all I'm saying.

You're obviously right that the context matters here, but if I had to choose the likeliest perpetrator, I'd end up on Avery. But to be clear I wouldn't be at all confident that I was correct, hence why I could never vote to convict if I were on the jury.

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

#essereFerrari


I really struggled to watch Eugene Kusche and not think of the Butterfield Detective Agency.

Super Aggro Crag
Apr 23, 2008




And, of course as always, kill Hitler.


Just finished the 3rd episode and gently caress man, I can't watch anymore tonight.

MrCodeDude
Aug 31, 2005

Grem posted:

People keep bringing up the $36m civil rights case, but the documentary said that the Avery Bill that was passed right when Teresa went missing gave Avery $400k. I'm almost positive that was going to be the extent of his restitution, I don't see the state adding another lump of money on to what he was probably going to win anyways. I can't find if his case ever closed or what, but the way he was buddy buddy with lawmakers in the state I can see them offering the $400k and him dropping the civil rights lawsuit in exchange.

The $400k state restitution (which I don't believe was ever paid out) is for those wrongly convicted of crimes who were later exonerated. This assumes capable police investigation and state prosecution.

Avery was able to file a very legitimate and damaging civil suit against Manitowoc County, the Sheriff, and the District Attorney, because of their gross negligence and continued willful misconduct in investigating/prosecuting the case.

He had to settle this civil case (which originally asked for $36m, $18m of which was for punitive damages) for $400k because he needed money to fund his criminal defense case. In the settlement, Manitowoc admitted no wrongdoing.

If the Teresa Halbach thing never happened, it's very likely Avery gets at least a mid 7-figure payout from the civil suit (on top of the $400k from the state restitution).

Kal Torak
Jul 17, 2003

When Giles sends me on a mission, he says "please". And afterwards I get a cookie.

Basebf555 posted:

I apologize if it came across that way, but I mean in the empirical sense those are two facts that aren't disputed. Theresa did in fact meet with Avery that day, she did in fact disappear shortly after meeting with him, and her remains were in fact found on his property. Those very basic facts usually go a long way towards telling you who committed the crime, under normal circumstances. That's all I'm saying.

Agreed. This is why I continue to believe it had to be someone who lived on or close to Avery's property and was able to intercept Teresa on her way off the property.

fromsinkingsands
Oct 10, 2005

Gotta find Jason.
Just finished this. I feel like a different person. If you have a hard time trusting people, this documentary won't help.

A few things that really jumped out at me:

The creepy Theresa video that looks like it came straight out of a David Lynch film. "I love my sisters.. I LOVE MY FAMILY." WTF is this and where did it come from?

The Juror being excused for a "medical emergency" and then carrying a large burden of guilt to the point of visiting Brendon at his court case.
If the police are as hosed up and corrupt to plant evidence and sway the case, what would stop them from staging a "medical emergency" to lure one of the jurors away, one who could have potentially swayed the case in Steve's favor?

Steve's sister yelling out of her car "I think the harbachs are in on it" or something of that nature. I believe this to be true, and that the family was manipulated and used for the sole purpose to destroy Steve Avery. I believe they got paid and knew exactly what happened to her.


gently caress everything.

fromsinkingsands fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Dec 29, 2015

Alastor_the_Stylish
Jul 25, 2006

WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Steve2911 posted:

Buting: This clearly proves that the victim's phone was used after the day she went missing by someone who knew her password, and that something was deleted.
Judge: ...I'm having trouble seeing the relevance of this.


:cripes: Is this guy even awake? Even Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney wouldn't have been able to convince him something was wrong.


And the FBI instruction: the purpose of this test will be to determine the absence of EDTA in the sample swabs.

Oh wow the results came back so fast! How convenient!

TheAbortionator
Mar 4, 2005

The excuser juror didn't stand out as suspicious.


Just incredibly lovely luck that the one dude willing to stick by his convictions had an emergency and incredibly sad he now has to live with the fact that someone he thinks is innocent will spend the rest of his life in prison because he left.

fromsinkingsands
Oct 10, 2005

Gotta find Jason.

TheAbortionator posted:

The excuser juror didn't stand out as suspicious.


Just incredibly lovely luck that the one dude willing to stick by his convictions had an emergency and incredibly sad he now has to live with the fact that someone he thinks is innocent will spend the rest of his life in prison because he left.

I never got the impression he was suspicious. I thought he came off as a genuinely good guy. My thought is that it weighed especially heavy on him because perhaps he may have thought there was a "third party" involvement in the medical emergency.

TheAbortionator
Mar 4, 2005

I hear ya. But I don't think there would have to be any foul play involved to still feel guity about leaving. It does blow my mind that 7 people felt not guilty was the call but couldn't be bothered to deliberate with the 2 people set on guilty.

Like I get it. Its tedious and time consuming, but to throw away the rest of someone else's life because you are tired is incredibly lovely.

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

I got to the part where he murders a cat with fire 10 minutes in and the show is like "boys will be boys!" about it then turned it off.

IMB
Jan 8, 2005
How does an asshole like Bob get such a great kitchen?
I want to see the autopsy report for the woman Steven allegedly killed. I got this weird sense of suicide from her. I don't know who would have burned her body at the Avery's - unless it was a county employee or crooked deputy. I still think she killed herself.

IMB
Jan 8, 2005
How does an asshole like Bob get such a great kitchen?

IMB posted:

I want to see the autopsy report for the woman Steven allegedly killed. I got this weird sense of suicide from her. I don't know who would have burned her body at the Avery's - unless it was a county employee or crooked deputy. I still think she killed herself.

Duh, her body was burned. gently caress. I think she killed herself and the cops made it look like Avery did it. That video had a very "I'm on the verge of suicide" feel to it.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

IMB posted:

Duh, her body was burned. gently caress. I think she killed herself and the cops made it look like Avery did it. That video had a very "I'm on the verge of suicide" feel to it.

That'd make a lot of sense. Colburn finds car with dead body in it, calls it in, turns out it's the missing woman. Panic and/or plotting ensues.

I wonder who all of the people who were on the hook for that $36 million were - remember, the government insurance didn't cover it, so it was coming directly out of the officials' pockets. That's a lot of loving money.

MrCodeDude
Aug 31, 2005

IRQ posted:

I got to the part where he murders a cat with fire 10 minutes in and the show is like "boys will be boys!" about it then turned it off.

Way to focus on an incredibly small detail in the much greater story.

Turn it back on, get through 3 episodes, and see if your opinion changes.

IMB posted:

I want to see the autopsy report for the woman Steven allegedly killed. I got this weird sense of suicide from her. I don't know who would have burned her body at the Avery's - unless it was a county employee or crooked deputy. I still think she killed herself.

Didn't the police/prosecution say she was shot 11 times?

Since she was burned, they could only infer based off the bullet wounds off the remaining bone fragments. Were there really 11 in-tact bone fragments which showed bullet wounds?

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!

Fallen Rib

Kal Torak posted:

I don't think it has to be that sinister with that many people. Here's how I think it went:

- Colburn finds the vehicle
- Radios in to confirm it's the vehicle (why would he do this if he didn't have the vehicle?)
- Keys probably still in vehicle
- Moves car to junk yard and disguises it (by disguising it the way they did, they actually make it stick out)
- They had a few days to plant the blood evidence
- Get the search party to search junk yard knowing full well it will be discovered eventually

I think the fact it was discovered so soon is likely because it was on an outside ridge and because it was disguised.

I know this was 4 pages ago, but I really feel this is the most likely series of events. One that that bummed me out was I felt really bad for Theresa Halbachs family, but her brother was such a loving douche the entire time that I was finding it harder and harder for me to give 2 shits about their family.

Truther Vandross
Jun 17, 2008

XboxPants posted:

That'd make a lot of sense. Colburn finds car with dead body in it, calls it in, turns out it's the missing woman. Panic and/or plotting ensues.

I wonder who all of the people who were on the hook for that $36 million were - remember, the government insurance didn't cover it, so it was coming directly out of the officials' pockets. That's a lot of loving money.

It would've been a ruling for substantially less than that but still enough to financially cripple those individuals, which is exactly why I can't see this as anything other than a situation they saw convenient to frame Avery.

IMB
Jan 8, 2005
How does an asshole like Bob get such a great kitchen?

sportsgenius86 posted:

It would've been a ruling for substantially less than that but still enough to financially cripple those individuals, which is exactly why I can't see this as anything other than a situation they saw convenient to frame Avery.

Taxpayers would have paid whatever money was awarded, it wouldn't have come from the sheriff's personal pocketbook. It would have come from slush funds/jail funds, etc. It would have been figured out after the final amount was decided on.

team overhead smash
Sep 2, 2006

Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

Avery may have been guilty just because being the last one to see her alive and not being a moral upstanding citizen, but the law enforcement completely hosed over any chance of finding out if he was the killer and if not then who else it could be.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


I had very little faith in the American justice system before watching this, but I think every bit of it is gone now.

I'm halfway through episode 9 right now, but it's pretty clear what's going to happen to Brendan based on how the other trial went.

Blazing Ownager posted:

I haven't seen it yet and I'm sure law enforcement is messed up, but frankly I'd totally been OK if they dragged the fucker out behind an alley and unloaded on him.

Police have shot people that were just minding their own business, gently caress Mr. Avery.

ED: Seriously the dude is a creepy hosed up psycho and that's probably why the police had such a hate-on for him. I'm sure the documentary showed him in a better light, and I'm sure the police were corrupt as gently caress, but I just can't feel the least bit sorry for this guy.

Pulling out an 11 year old meme but..

Can make me give two shits about Steven Avery.


Correction: Only jurors that are too stupid to get out of jury duty or are too old and interested in screwing "bad guys" will judge you. Everyone else will find a way to get out of that poo poo on day 1.

You are the stupidest man in the world.


IRQ posted:

I got to the part where he murders a cat with fire 10 minutes in and the show is like "boys will be boys!" about it then turned it off.

Runner-up.

mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

Wiggles Von Huggins posted:

God loving dammit. Nothing here of even remote substance.

I finally finished all of the episodes, and at a bare minimum Brendan Dassey needs to be immediately released from prison.

Burning a cat alive for fun isn't remote substance? That is bone chilling psychopathic behavior.

Leon Einstein
Feb 6, 2012
I must win every thread in GBS. I don't care how much banal semantic quibbling and shitty posts it takes.
/\
It isn't really relevant to how the police hosed him over repeatedly.

This is blowing up on my FB, and seeing idiots write how they haven't seen this yet but know he's guilty makes me fume. One guy said his dad worked at the Milwaukee Crime lab, so he already "seen" all the evidence. When was Milwaukee processing any evidence? For the record, I live in Wisconsin, so everyone's an expert.

How can detectives feel good about coaching a borderline mentally retarded boy to confess?

Leon Einstein fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Dec 29, 2015

Arsonist Daria
Feb 27, 2011

Requiescat in pace.
People getting fixated on this goddamn cat are why innocent people die behind bars.

mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

Lumberjack Bonanza posted:

People getting fixated on this goddamn cat are why innocent people die behind bars.

I'm actually fine with people who have it in themselves to torture a defenseless animal to death for fun like that dying behind bars.

Yudo
May 15, 2003

^^than change the laws for animal murder rather than falsely convict a guy of the people kind. You seem to be missing the entire point here.

Leon Einstein posted:

/\
It isn't really relevant to how the police hosed him over repeatedly.

This is blowing up on my FB, and seeing idiots write how they haven't seen this yet but know he's guilty makes me fume. One guy said his dad worked at the Milwaukee Crime lab, so he already "seen" all the evidence. When was Milwaukee processing any evidence? For the record, I live in Wisconsin, so everyone's an expert.

How can detectives feel good about coaching a borderline mentally retarded boy to confess?

Because they have helped purge undesirables from the glorious county of Manitowoc. Also, Wisconsin is Northern Alabama.

Yudo fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Dec 29, 2015

Kampfbereit
Sep 6, 2011

EL BROMANCE posted:

Anyway, if you liked that then watch this. Was mentioned in the thread earlier, but it's very good (made in 2000 and fairly low budget, but fits in with this spate of 'true crazy crimes you've never heard of' documentaries we're getting).

Murder on a Sunday Morning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWwf-uHrCIA
I really recommend this to everyone in this thread. It's the same, but different. In MoaSM the cops didn't pin the crime on their nemesis, they just literally arrested the first young black man they saw. Like literally-literally. They drove down the street until they saw someone black, and arrested him. Same interrogation technique though.

MrCodeDude posted:

Way to focus on an incredibly small detail in the much greater story.

Turn it back on, get through 3 episodes, and see if your opinion changes.


Didn't the police/prosecution say she was shot 11 times?

Since she was burned, they could only infer based off the bullet wounds off the remaining bone fragments. Were there really 11 in-tact bone fragments which showed bullet wounds?

Yes, animal lovers are retarded. I saw a documentary about a guy called Hitler or something, and it said that he was a struggling homeless artist and decorated war veteran who really loved dogs. I stopped watching there, two minutes into a ten-part series, as I had received all information I needed to judge his character. I wish I could time travel back to 1920 to shake the hand of this great man. Wonder what happened to him?

On topic: The skull fragments had one or two possible bullet holes (entry/exit?). The cops found 11 empty shell casings on the floor of the garage, so they forced Brendan to confess that she was shot 11 times. Again, 11 shell casings on the immaculately cleaned floor with no trace of the DNA of a woman who had been shot 11 times with a RIFLE on that floor. "There, the floor and my forty broken lawn mowers are immaculately clean! Now I just have to put all the shell casings and that bullet back on the floor."

Pinky Artichoke
Apr 10, 2011

Dinner has blossomed.

Leon Einstein posted:

/\
It isn't really relevant to how the police hosed him over repeatedly.

This is blowing up on my FB, and seeing idiots write how they haven't seen this yet but know he's guilty makes me fume. One guy said his dad worked at the Milwaukee Crime lab, so he already "seen" all the evidence. When was Milwaukee processing any evidence? For the record, I live in Wisconsin, so everyone's an expert.

There's been some of that on my FB as well. I figure people saw a shitton of media coverage back in 2006-7 plus all the gossip that happens when practically everyone is related to someone in law enforcement and/or the Avery family and I can't really fault them for having strong feelings. Anyway, it'll all be drowned out by mourning for Lemmy for the foreseeable future.

OK, different issue, I'm almost finished (had to stop in the middle of episode 10) and I had to laugh a little when Steven says he never expected to go to jail again. Come on, man, you're a felon in possession of a firearm. You're still a reckless driver. You're putting yourself into compromising situations with an underage girl. Being exonerated in the past doesn't give you a Get Out Of Jail Free card for all of the petty bullshit that would've had you in and out of jail all along if Penny Beerntsen had never been attacked.

mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

Yudo posted:

^^than change the laws for animal murder rather than falsely convict a guy of the people kind. You seem to be missing the entire point

I said that the criminal justice portion of this story is an utter travesty in my first post in this thread.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






Even if Avery was OJ-level obviously super duper double secret probation guilty, the handling of his and Brendan's cases are still a grotesque miscarriage of justice and that aspect of it is infinitely more disturbing than anything else in the series, including his barbecued cat you loving idiots.

mcmagic posted:

I said that the criminal justice portion of this story is an utter travesty in my first post in this thread.

Your opinion is still more retarded than the average Wisconsinite.

Arsonist Daria
Feb 27, 2011

Requiescat in pace.

Pinky Artichoke posted:

OK, different issue, I'm almost finished (had to stop in the middle of episode 10) and I had to laugh a little when Steven says he never expected to go to jail again. Come on, man, you're a felon in possession of a firearm. You're still a reckless driver. You're putting yourself into compromising situations with an underage girl. Being exonerated in the past doesn't give you a Get Out Of Jail Free card for all of the petty bullshit that would've had you in and out of jail all along if Penny Beerntsen had never been attacked.

Yeah, it's pretty clear Avery doesn't put a lot of thought into his actions. I imagine most people know someone like him, and yeah you're not surprised when you hear they hosed up one way or another. That's probably got a lot to do with why people were ready to believe he did something so terrible.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


The entire Avery family seems to be of low intelligence and not the best at making decisions. If anything, that makes how they were victimized by the system even more despicable.

my kinda ape
Sep 15, 2008

Everything's gonna be A-OK
Oven Wrangler
I'm about 25% into episode 4 and I genuinely hope that everyone involved in this county's legal system gets the guillotine someday.

Carew
Jun 22, 2006
I think hoping they'll get the guillotine is a bit harsh as I don't think any of them killed any cats.

nooneofconsequence
Oct 30, 2012

she had tiny Italian boobs.
Well that's my story.

I like how the prosecution sneers at Brendan, "Oh, so you made up Theresa saying "Do the right thing." to you" when that's something the detectives repeated to him like a million times so of course he thought Theresa said it.

nooneofconsequence fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Dec 29, 2015

EL BROMANCE
Jun 10, 2006

COWABUNGA DUDES!
🥷🐢😬



One of the bits that got me was when you heard the phone call revealing that neither kid nor mother knows what 'inconsistent' means. I think it just rubbed it in that they just didn't have a chance.

Also, was it the prosecution or the defence that asked him 'what the hell kind of book has these kind of crimes in?' and Brendan has an answer? I kind of punched the air a little bit then, as it gave some hope.

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MrCodeDude
Aug 31, 2005

IMB posted:

Taxpayers would have paid whatever money was awarded, it wouldn't have come from the sheriff's personal pocketbook. It would have come from slush funds/jail funds, etc. It would have been figured out after the final amount was decided on.

Both the Sheriff and DA were allowed to be named in the civil suit, which means they would also share some of the financial burden.

Pinky Artichoke posted:

OK, different issue, I'm almost finished (had to stop in the middle of episode 10) and I had to laugh a little when Steven says he never expected to go to jail again. Come on, man, you're a felon in possession of a firearm. You're still a reckless driver. You're putting yourself into compromising situations with an underage girl. Being exonerated in the past doesn't give you a Get Out Of Jail Free card for all of the petty bullshit that would've had you in and out of jail all along if Penny Beerntsen had never been attacked.

Did I miss this? What underage girl?

EL BROMANCE posted:

One of the bits that got me was when you heard the phone call revealing that neither kid nor mother knows what 'inconsistent' means. I think it just rubbed it in that they just didn't have a chance.

This was a terribly depressing scene, but I took from it that while Brendan didn't know what the word meant, his mom wasn't sure what it meant as it pertained to his case. That is, she knew the definition, but wasn't sure how him giving inconsistent statements would affect his and/or Steve's criminal cases.

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