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Kal Torak posted:I don't know what the motive would be for killing your sister. The brother was at the trials and sentencing every day. Seems like a lot to go through... As soon as I saw that video, it made me think she must already have a person in her life who she's aware is dangerous and might end up hurting or killing her. Kal Torak posted:I still think it has to be someone who lived on or close to the Avery property and knew enough to intercept her leaving the property and then burn her body close to the property. This... doesn't really go against your argument. In fact, looking at the roads, the "quarry pile" seems to basically just be a dirt road off the side of the Avery driveway. Kal Torak posted:Again, I am going to bring up Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych who just happen to give each other an alibi during the time Steven says she would have leaving. I know there's no motive there either for them, but their testimony changed considerably from the time they were first interviewed to the time of the trial.
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Dec 28, 2015 02:37
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Basebf555 posted:Her roommate is a figure in all this that hardly gets brought up in the documentary, but she could certainly have played a part in sparking a motive if she and the ex-boyfriend had been getting together and Theresa was vocal about not liking it. Wasn't the roommate a guy? I remember because it was a little odd, even for 2003. Though thinking back I may be getting that mixed up with the 1985 case. Kal Torak posted:Interesting. I hadn't considered that. Yeah, we can agree about the burn site. And for me, despite how awful Lenk and Colburn and some of these Manitowoc officials are, it's hard to see them being the ones burning her body. Not because they're such upstanding gents, but it just doesn't fit how I view them. I don't think they're good people, but I think they think they're good people, and burning the body of a "nice young lady" in cold blood would break that illusion so violently... it doesn't seem like the exact kind of hosed up thing they'd do. Not unless they thought Teresa was a slut or witch or something. I can imagine them moving her cremains though; at that point you can block it out and not think about it as a person. Personally, I think Teresa was probably killed & burned by someone she knew, then Steven was intentionally framed by a very small group of people, not much more than one or two, with Brendan caught in the crossfire. But I wouldn't that surprised if it turned out Steven or another Avery killed her, despite how bad a decision that'd be. (People do stupid poo poo, a hunting accident on the Avery property would have been extremely possible) I would be a bit surprised if it turned out the cops killed her, or even were the ones who burned her body. That's a whole 'nother level of  Kal Torak posted:If it was someone close to her, we are to assume that whoever did it, knew about Avery, knew about his history, knew he would be the perfect target, and knew that she would be going to take pictures for him? That seems like a serious stretch for her brother or ex-boyfriend. It's a bit of a stretch, I agree. But this is a troublesome case. There aren't really any clean solutions where everything adds up.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:28
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Measly Twerp posted:Brendan and Steve both have similar IQs, but they are still so different from each other that I don't think it's a useful metric at all. The problem with IQs is the number which would be reported here is what'd be known as the "full spectrum" IQ, which is actually an average of a bunch of different numbers. Most commonly, your scatter of numbers don't differ that far from each other, probably not much more than a standard deviation of 15 points. If that's the case, the full spectrum IQ gives you a pretty accurate summation of someone's mental faculties. But some people do have really broad scatters - especially gifted people, people with either learning disabilities, or both (LD-gifted people, like a dyslexic guy that's great at poetry), and in that case the full spectrum doesn't give a very clear picture. Steven could have just one or two scores that are way lower than everything else that drags the whole thing average down into mentally retarded land. He could have just scored in the bottom fifth percentile for the visual spacial skills section and otherwise be a normal guy.
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Dec 28, 2015 21:44
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IMB posted:Duh, her body was burned. gently caress. I think she killed herself and the cops made it look like Avery did it. That video had a very "I'm on the verge of suicide" feel to it. That'd make a lot of sense. Colburn finds car with dead body in it, calls it in, turns out it's the missing woman. Panic and/or plotting ensues. I wonder who all of the people who were on the hook for that $36 million were - remember, the government insurance didn't cover it, so it was coming directly out of the officials' pockets. That's a lot of loving money.
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Dec 29, 2015 05:02
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Kelly posted:One of them did it. Maybe not Steve, but one of them. They are a family of criminals. If someone posted a thread in GBS "Check out the dirtbag family' people on the forums would be tripping over themselves to call for them to be launched to the moon. Oh, well if GBS would agree then that proves it. GBS is a worse group of unthinking hicks than Wisconsin.
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Dec 30, 2015 16:50
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ruddiger posted:If anything good came out of this, it's that history exposed these names I know I'm gonna get poo poo for this, but to me one of the biggest utilities of this documentary is to serve as a story for white people to be able to empathize with what's happening de rigueur in the black and other disenfranchised communities all around the country every day. It's usually not quite as bad as in this case, sure, but it's not too far off, either. This doc is just a snapshot of the current state of modern law enforcement prejudice against low-class (or "dirty", as LEO would say) communities & families in modern-day America.
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Dec 30, 2015 19:02
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gvibes posted:I thought it was about two miles away. I posted a link to Google maps satellite view of you or anybody wants to measure.
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Dec 30, 2015 19:18
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Bag of Sun Chips posted:Unfortunately, the people you're talking about most likely feel that Avery "got what was coming to him" and "deserved it". Hey, it's a slow process.
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Dec 30, 2015 20:23
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Unzip and Attack posted:"The Averys are a family of criminals." Well just look at this long list of previous run ins with the law they've had! (With the very unbiased, upstanding folks at the Manitowoc PD who surely never escalated or exaggerated any of those crimes)
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Dec 30, 2015 22:01
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Basebf555 posted:The quarry is a little further away from the property than I realized, but really it doesn't change anything because its close enough for Avery to know every inch of it and I imagine its waaaaay more likely to find an Avery around that area than anybody else. Yeah... As much as I want to believe in the Averys, that was my conclusion as well. It's a mile or two away from their property, technically, but it's also basically another stop on the dirt road driveway that leads to their land. Take a right instead of a left, end up at the quarry instead of the scrapyard. Likeliness doesn't prove anything, of course, but the simplest answer is that someone that was already around that area did it.
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Dec 30, 2015 22:28
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Kelly posted:I can't tell if this is sarcastic. I am going to pretend it isn't. I've sorta been sarcastic about this, so let me be clear: I imagine that some of the Avery families crimes were escalated, exaggerated, whatever by the local police and criminal justice system... but surely not all of them. I'm sure that some of the poo poo they've been accused and arrested of is true, and surely they've done shady poo poo that they haven't been caught for as well. I know myself and people in my family and friends circle have gotten away with plenty of criminal acts. Ever steal a stick of gum? Petty theft. Ever been in a fight in your life? That's assault. Ever get drunk and moon a random passing car? Now you're a sex offender. The issue I take isn't whether or not any member of the family has committed crimes in the past. Surely, some have. It's then using that to define the entire character of individuals and then, by association, the entire family. Just because someone has committed a crime in the past, even several crimes, doesn't make them a "dirty" "pure evil" person. But that's how the local government treats it, and that's basically how it seems that you're treating it, as well; that you can make a summary judgment as to the full character of a person based on a few very biased events in their life. It's a very dangerous thing to do, because then you start thinking "well they're just a dirty, evil, criminal, of course they're going to rape again just like last time, we gotta get this guy". XboxPants fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 30, 2015 22:47
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Glenn_Beckett posted:Jesus Christ Just to be clear, when you say "this case" is a perfect example of things working as they should, are you referring to just People vs Avery, or do you also believe the case against Dassey was a perfect example of the system working exactly the way it should?
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Dec 31, 2015 03:30
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10thAvenue posted:https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y6jzw/brendan_dassey_trial_transcripts/ Thanks for going through them, it was a couple interesting tidbits. Did Fassbender & co ever talk about cleaning up a mess with Brendan, or was that his first mention of that issue? Sorta interesting. Also, what's the deal with the Kiss the Girls book he mentioned? Does that indeed have weird sexual violence in it? Even if it does, it'd be fairly surprising to me that this kid who isn't sure what state he lives in read a whole novel. Though I wouldn't be surprised if it was something a friend of his showed him, I guess, poo poo like that certainly happens.
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Jan 2, 2016 03:36
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blarzgh posted:Let me ask you this, "If tomorrow, you were conscripted to sit through Steven Avery's new trial, could you give him a guilty verdict if you heard and saw enough evidence to convince you beyond a shadow of a doubt that he did it?" This is an extremely manipulatively question, whether you meant it as such or not. You basically just asked "could you be convinced if you were convinced?" It's only barely more than a tautology. No one would answer "no" to such a question.
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Jan 25, 2016 22:12
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yronic heroism posted:He also said he saw a body in the fire before the confessions, and we know he was at the bonfire with Avery. Is he on the record saying this pre-confession somewhere?
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Jan 26, 2016 01:06
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blarzgh posted:Don't forget the next part of the question: "Could you overcome the belief that he is innocent and didn't get a fair shake at the first trial, and render a 'guilty' verdict anyways, if it became clear to you that he murdered that woman?" But that "if" is the whole key to this issue. Yes, if someone was convinced that Avery was guilty then they would be willing to convict him. But by starting with the presumption that it's definitely possible the theoretical juror can be convinced of Avery's guilt, you circumvent the entire argument at hand. You need to ask whether it's even possible for the juror to have their opinion changed to begin with, but you don't ask that question - you take it as your starting point. You begin your question with a scenario in which your argument is already won, and then ask for your point to be proven based on the assumptions you've already made. This is why I say your scenario is too manipulative. "If Obama was a lizard person, would you be willing to say Obama was a lizard person?" "Well... yes." "I rest my case."
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Jan 26, 2016 03:10
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NecroMonster posted:Oh god he's referring to the poo poo the cousin said. Of course he is, that's why I asked him if he could point to somewhere it was recorded that Dassey had said it.
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Jan 26, 2016 03:29
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yronic heroism posted:What reason did the cousin have to lie to her school counselor? None. The issue isn't the strength of the evidence. You were making an argument about how much direct evidence there was, and included in your list things that Dassey had said which were, in fact, not things that he had said, but things that his cousin had said. There's a difference.
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Jan 26, 2016 03:54
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blarzgh posted:I really don't know what your point is. The point is that your question is meaningless. Rather than presuming that even a strongly biased juror can be swayed, and then asking whether, once swayed, they'd be willing to vote against their bias, you should instead be asking whether a strongly biased juror can be swayed at all to begin with. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Jan 26, 2016 |
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Jan 26, 2016 04:54
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Thank you, that's what I was looking for. I hadn't seen that exchange before. It lends quite a bit more substance to Kayla's story. (admittedly a low bar to clear, since the amount of substance I was previously giving her story was roughly "none")
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Jan 26, 2016 06:29
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