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Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

ChubbyChecker posted:

some people hate tolkien for his racism and classism, and some hate lewis for his racism, misogynism and jesus lions

I doubt either of these are common sentiments. Both are a stretch.

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Bold Robot
Jan 6, 2009

Be brave.



Tosk posted:

I made this point a page or two ago and someone already voiced their disagreement then, but I think people feel more let down by Bakker than some other fantasy authors because the first trilogy was really good. Yes, with all the important caveats that jump immediately to mind, but nonetheless, it was some solid fantasy.

I'm pretty sure Bakker would be saying that the disappointment was his authorial intent as his purpose was to challenge readers' expectations about what they get as an ending, but I have far less of an issue with the ending itself (the apocalypse happens again) than with the lovely execution of the last two books. As has been repeated ad nauseam, if the last two novels had been trimmed down into a single tome with approximately one third of the cannibalistic death march and some effort to actually give decent answers to at least some of the questions raised throughout the series, just as was done with TTT, it would have been a lot easier to stomach, but that didn't happen and we were left with poo poo as a result.

:yossame: I enjoyed the first trilogy and had no problem with the "good guys lose" ending, but the second trilogy was just a mess. Only a few of the various plots really went anywhere or mattered at all, which made for a really unsatisfying ending in a different way than I think Bakker was aiming for.

Safety Biscuits
Oct 21, 2010

Cardiac posted:

I am mostly curious why people are so upset about Bakker and the books since there are plenty of mediocre fantasy written by authors with questionable opinions out there that people don’t get upset about.
You don’t see the same amount of vitriol towards other authors, probably because they are completely generic and forgettable.

He wrote about sex. It's as simple as that.

Amethyst posted:

I doubt either of these are common sentiments. Both are a stretch.

They're pretty common and not really a stretch. Tolkien wrote about good, tall, long-lived pure-blooded Numenoreans and little-Englander hobbits (apologies for the lack of appropriate accents, my new computer is annoying) fighting evil Southerners/Easterners and ugly, uneducated-sounding, man-eating orcs. Yes, he subverted that occasionally, but it's a pretty big part of his books, Lord of the Rings in particular. Lewis wrote about good Christians and devil-worshipping Muslim-a-likes, and the last Narnia book includes Susan's being excluded from Heaven because she discovered lipsticks and nylons, if I remember the line correctly. They were fundamentally white Edwardian men, it's no wonder people today take issue with their ideas on race, sex, and class.

As for the Jesus lion, nuff said.

Lunchmeat Larry
Nov 3, 2012

Lmao if you think racism in Narnia is a stretch, please re-read Horse and his Boy or Last Battle sometime

Crespolini
Mar 9, 2014

Safety Biscuits posted:


As for the Jesus lion, nuff said.

You hate lions or something?

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai
I’m talking hating Tolkien, not writing about Edwardian views on race in general. Acting like lotr is a racial manifesto because it was written in the early 29th c is very dumb, sorry.

Safety Biscuits
Oct 21, 2010

Amethyst posted:

I’m talking hating Tolkien, not writing about Edwardian views on race in general. Acting like lotr is a racial manifesto because it was written in the early 29th c is very dumb, sorry.

No, it's a pretty obvious reading, albeit not the best one.

Crimpolioni posted:

You hate lions or something?

I'm a zebra.

Take the plunge! Okay!
Feb 24, 2007



There are no good or bad readings. There is bad writing, like Bakker or Tolkien.

MrNemo
Aug 26, 2010

"I just love beeting off"

I'd agree the first trilogy was actually sold fantasy with some interesting and unusual ideas. A solid editor might have kept Bakker to that and curbed some of his body horror moments with a reality of check of 'why do you keep writing about all these people enjoying being raped? Or more importantly why is the major focus of the horror Howe much they're enjoying it rather than just... The rape?'

gently caress I'd have been fine with the ending we've got if it had clearly been an ending. Instead we get a few possible threads being raised, the good guys otherwise losing the battle and the No God appears.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018

Amethyst posted:

I doubt either of these are common sentiments. Both are a stretch.

both are common sentiments and not stretches

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai
No they aren’t. Checkmate.

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai
I know it’s a cool internet thing to do to butt into conversations asserting that everyone knows a popular thing is morally reprehensible and racist, but I’ll let you in on a secret: no one gives a poo poo about your inane bullshit. No one.

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai
Oh wow you managed to interpret elves as perfect Aryan super men? Incredible. Can’t wait to hear all about how the criminals speak with regional accents and are basically an open throated endorsement of social Darwinism. Did you ever notice that super saiyans in dragon ball have blonde hair by the way?? Messed up. It’s really, super important you post this all over the place, get the message out.

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai
The only non-dumbass forum link for the google search “Tolkien racist” is a professor of children’s literature saying that no, tolkein isn’t racist in any meaningful sense. Not a common sentiment.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007
So what you're saying is... it's a common sentiment, you just ignored all of it except for one professor, responding to the common sentiment, says otherwise.

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai
Stop bumping this to continue the idiotic argument.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

StrixNebulosa
Feb 14, 2012

You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA

Amethyst posted:

Stop bumping this to continue the idiotic argument.

Please don't do this.



Content: I will forever be bummed that the "what if the god is actually a helicopter" didn't go anywhere because it was a genuinely awesome idea. Put more high tech into low tech settings please.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010

StrixNebulosa posted:

Please don't do this.



Content: I will forever be bummed that the "what if the god is actually a helicopter" didn't go anywhere because it was a genuinely awesome idea. Put more high tech into low tech settings please.

Book 1 has the No-God loudly screaming WHAT AM I? and 6 books later we still don't know.

Heron Spear should have been a bazooka, tbh.

Lunchmeat Larry
Nov 3, 2012

Bakker wrote a series so edgy that the main villain identified as an attack helicopter like ten years before that was a transphobic joke

Jarvisi
Apr 17, 2001

Green is still best.
I get sad every time I see a new post in this thread because it reminds me I read every single one of these goddamn books

MrNemo
Aug 26, 2010

"I just love beeting off"

It genuinely saddens me that this series started with an interesting concept of the horror of an objective non materialist morality system, humans as biological machinery, magic as differential ways of understanding and shaping reality and ended up with a cannibal rape fest, an Empire Strikes back ending and a dragon screaming 'I smell cunny!'

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Rime
Nov 2, 2011

by Games Forum

MrNemo posted:

It genuinely saddens me that this series started with an interesting concept of the horror of an objective non materialist morality system, humans as biological machinery, magic as differential ways of understanding and shaping reality and ended up with a cannibal rape fest, an Empire Strikes back ending and a dragon screaming 'I smell cunny!'

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