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2018 Update: HOO BOY DON'T READ THE LAST FEW BOOKS. JUST ENJOY THE FIRST TRILOGY AND PRETEND NOTHING ELSE EXISTS. AKA THE DUNE/STARWARS STRATEGY. TRUST US. THX. don't know how to get / think that threads can be de-archived, but since Unholy Consult finally has a release date: here is a new R Scott Bakker Thread for all your BLACK DEMON SEED discussion needs! I have shamelessly stolen the OP from the last thread and made only minor edits, since it is pretty great already. Who is R. Scott Bakker? R. Scott Bakker is a Canadian fantasy author. While he’s made several forays into traditional fiction, the main bulk of his work is a fantasy series called The Second Apocalypse. Alright, I just put “The Second Apocalypse” into Amazon and nothing came up. What gives? The Second Apocalypse is sort of a trilogy of trilogies that comprises all of Bakker’s work. It’s easier to think of it as three trilogies of books that take place in the same universe, with big gaps in between. The first trilogy is called “The Prince of Nothing” and comprises the following books: 1. The Darkness that Comes Before 2. The Warrior-Prophet 3. The Thousandfold Thought Bakker’s in the middle of writing the second trilogy right now, called “The Aspect-Emperor.” A-E takes place about twenty years after the events of PoN and picks up where it left off, but other than that pretty much everything about it is a huge spoiler for PoN. It comprises: 1. The Judging Eye 2. The White-Luck Warrior 3. The Great Ordeal (July 5, 2016!) 4. The Unholy Consult (2017) If you’re worried about the series not finishing, don’t be – Bakker’s put out the books at a pretty good clip (six in the last eight years, plus two non-fantasy novels) and has plotted out the last three books in the series. The title of the third trilogy is as yet unrevealed, it’s apparently a huge spoiler for TUC (much like Aspect-Emperor is kind of a spoiler for PoN). So, why should I read this book instead of the thousand other bloated fantasy series out there? Prince of Nothing isn't like any other fantasy series running today: it's extremely well-written, full of vibrant and interesting characters, and it just feels like a more complete, 'real' world than just about anything else. If there’s a series I’d compare PoN to, it’s actually Dune. It feels very much like the epic scope of the Malazan books merged with the philosophizing and character of the early Dune novels. (Hell, he even steals the ‘awesome in-universe made up quote before every chapter’ that Frank Herbert did). Bakker obviously knows his philosophy and isn’t afraid to let it permeate the narrative – but not so much so that it gets in the way. And if you're concerned about the time commitment required to get into a major fantasy series, you're in luck - the PoN books all range from 5-600 pages, nowhere near the 1000+ wrist-breaking behemoths we're used to. One caveat – the universe of PoN is pretty drat brutal. If you’re one of those people who can’t read George R.R. Martin’s books because of all the sex and violence, you’re going to find it amped up to an even more ridiculous degree here. It’s an “Adult” fantasy in both the sense of not treating the reader like a child, and presenting things that no child should read. I’ve read all of these books already, what now? Read them again. Seriously, like the Malazan books or the novels of Gene Wolfe, there’s a bunch of clever twists and aspects to Bakker’s world that only become apparent on a second reading. Alternatively, he’s also written two non-fantasy novels – a ‘technothriller’ called Neuropath and another called Disciple of the Dog – but I haven’t read either and can’t really comment on whether they’re worth your time. The gently caress, The Unholy Consult was supposed to be published 4 years ago, what happened? While circumstances not entirely clear, it appears that Bakkers publisher received the manuscript, the editor quit without notice, and then proceeded to sit on it for three years until fans stirred up a huge shitshow which caused embarrassment for Overlook and ire from Bakkers agent. Subsequently The Unholy Consult has been split into two, with The Great Ordeal finally hitting shelves this July! Huzzah! 
Rime fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Jan 4, 2019 |
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Jan 4, 2016 09:32
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savinhill posted:
Apparently the encyclopedia in The Great Ordeal is now almost as long as the novel itself, like nearly half the physical book. 
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Jan 5, 2016 22:13
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savinhill posted:^^^Man, one of the biggest things I'm jonesing to find out about the Ordeal is wtf is going to happen to all the people who start eating the dead Sranc? The Amazon summary says "consequences not even Kellhus could forsee". So probably nothing good. 
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Jan 6, 2016 13:31
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Yeah, I find his darker predilections in writing to be somewhat frustrating, since as Shaquin says the series is one of the ultra rare gems that feels as deep and well-crafted as Dune in the world building and philosophical exploration. I constantly want to recommend it to people, but am afraid of them reading it and then judging me based on the quite horrific-at-times subject matter. Hopefully he's been using the years that Overlook sat on the manuscript wisely, and the third trilogy is already done and ready for submission.
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Jan 7, 2016 05:10
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I've always read Kellhus as a completely amoral psychopath who eventually succumbs to complete insanity and in the first trilogy, serves as an exploration of the dangers of messianic thinking / culture (similar to Paul Atreides) while in the second The perils of achieving actual unfettered messianic powers. I think there's a fundamental difference in literature between characters written to be appealing to the the other characters around them in the context of the plot, while being quickly abhorrent to the readers, and characters who serve only as juvenile wish fulfilment like that Mary sue Kvoth. I mean, to the astute reader it becomes apparent pretty quickly that Kellhus is a terrifyingly lovely individual and pathological liar and is probably the major villian of the series in the long run, like watching Sauron fall from grace. 
Rime fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 16:30
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Boing posted:I think the non-Mongol is supposed to be a non-Scythian really With more than a dash of Cimmerian thrown in. One of the things I enjoy about Bakker is that he heavily lifts his cultures from world history, but blends and tweaks them enough that you can't point at one and say "This is supposed to be X". Unlike other authors *cough* GRRM *cough*, where they pretty much just ramp a group like the Mongols up to 11 and call it a day. On that note, he's one of very few authors outside of Tolkien to really do "decline and fall of ancient civilization" well. You have this vast wasteland / wilderness north of Nansur, once home to two successive empires which were just miles more populated and advanced than the pitiful realm that humanity still holds, but the existence of all of that is largely considered a myth outside of the Gnostic schoolmen. Sure, there's still Sakarpus surviving up there, but the Sranc ensure that they rarely ever make contact with the south. Nobody goes up there, nobody loots, they just stay and squabble over what little they own in the south. I love this because it's exactly what has happened over the course of our own history, for thousands of years. Empires rise, empires fall, and within a few centuries nobody even remembers that they existed. After long enough, they even fade out of myth, until thousands of years later we dig up a massive city like Teishebaini and go "Whoa, poo poo, here's a whole chapter in human history that we never even knew existed. Millions of lives, stories, ideas, washed into the gutter by the blood of the people which held them." It really struck me in, I think, White Luck Warrior, where they camp out on the remains of one of the major cities of the north and there's just loving nothing there except some crumbled walls in the forest. And then you have the Great Ordeal, slowly pushing the borders of the realm back through these ancient ruins, like Byzantium reclaiming the realms of Alexander a thousand years after their fall. It's a refreshing change from the whole "Oh yeah, powerful ancient empire from a millenia ago that we know all the details about, lets go find their perfectly preserved cities and get this wicked artifact." I can overlook the poo poo plot in the second trilogy and the body horror because the world building is designed for history nerds like me. 
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Jan 23, 2016 14:26
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Something I found really interesting about those scenes is how Bakker riffs on the fantasy myth trope through them. Rather than being vague legends handed down from dark times and mutated, they're 100% accurate because the gnostics see the events every night. This leads to an interesting inversion of the trope, such as when Achamian sees Sauglish for the first time after a lifetime of seeing the city as it was and has to figure out where things are from these vague millenia-old ruins. However, you still get the fun narrative of a fallen medieval society not knowing what the gently caress they are dealing with. Such as the Heron Spear pretty obviously being a giant laser rifle. 
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Feb 17, 2016 10:12
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I have to hold off diving into this because I'm taking an incredibly intensive training course all next week and can't afford to be distracted. 
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Jul 15, 2016 01:03
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I have put off reading Great Ordeal due to being busy, but with winter I now have time. At only 142 pages, my reaction so far is  .Mainly because Bakker has really turned the prose up to 11 this time around. For example: "If they responded to hails at all, it would be to look through their interrogator, into whatever deeps and distances that had made slack rope of their souls." Also the entire passage describing the exterior of Ishterebinth. This author was gifted an unnatural way with words. Rime fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Dec 2, 2016 |
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Dec 2, 2016 03:58
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I was really down for "digging holes in the ground and loving them".
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Dec 6, 2016 19:45
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Was the request someone fed up with seeing BLACK DEMON SEED next to their wizard books, or someone from this thread who thought we'd get more readers if we re-branded? It was me, I thought the holes line was better than what I started with.
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Dec 7, 2016 21:20
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Turbo-rad.
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Dec 13, 2016 01:50
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And then a wait of so many years for the next trilogy, if he does write it. 
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Jan 18, 2017 17:01
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It's worth noting that the reader scoffs at Kellhus because we come from an enlightened era where the average reader has probably read about the chemical makeup of star matter and are hardened against manipulation by a lifetime of exposure to advertising and the farce of religious dogma. As such, his methods come across as hammy. However, Kellhus operates in a medieval era where the average man cannot read, the gods are a daily terror, and crafting a crusade requires little more than an uncanny ability to manipulate the willing. Someone who comes along and says some deep poo poo which feels right and sounds profound will go exceptionally far in the latter world, and did so multiple times in our own history. Then again, we have Trump so maybe modern society isn't as impervious to really ham-fisted manipulation as the intelligentsia would like to believe.
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Jan 20, 2017 00:33
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This is an excellent post. I struggle to recommend this series to many, because frankly Bakkers overarching philosophy of misogyny is tiresome at the least and outright offensively juvenile to most. There were so many interesting ways he could have explored the nature of humanity through a dark and gritty sci-fi-fantasy world, but after 6 books it's become so ridiculous that it's honestly lost all shock value and entered into tedium. Which is disappointing, because his worldbuilding is still bar none and descriptions of places and events such as the "Larder of Men" or the bowels of Ishterebinth bestow a much richer sense of eldritch horror than his endless blabbering about throbbing cocks and body horror.
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Jan 25, 2017 02:39
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I won't lie, Bakkers cosmology and metaphysics definitely made a lot more sense when I re-read the series not long after having done an absolutely ludicrous amount of mushrooms.
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Mar 17, 2017 05:45
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kcroy posted:ARCs of the unholy consult have been sent out. Here is one review of the next book: http://thewertzone.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/the-unholy-consult-by-r-scott-bakker.html Shiiiiit. Two months will be a long rear end wait for what sounds like an epic.
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May 11, 2017 19:09
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I'd be fine if he pulled a classical author move and ended the series where he planned to, rather than loving it into the ground like most modern hacks do. I'd rather not see Dune: Black Demon Seed, is what I'm saying. 
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May 15, 2017 07:05
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:Life imitates art. That's pretty dark in a non-bakker context. 
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Jun 10, 2017 17:32
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I would suggest that Bakker never considered female nonmen sorcerers in the context of the lore, because he killed them off at the very start and their role in the narrative was encapsulated in that death. Do we even hear about any female nonmen at all, outside of the womb-plague and how that loss destroyed the entire species? Should we? Would that progress the narrative? In what ways? Trying to write fantasy in the era of Tumblr derived opinions must be the most anxiety producing career. 
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Jun 20, 2017 04:29
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This page of black spoiler text has me erect with what it implies, brb readin' the book. Edit: Just finished chapter 5 and this is like Junji Ito wrote a novel. 
Rime fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jul 9, 2017 |
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Jul 8, 2017 23:46
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Hoooooooooooooooly loving poo poo. I haven't had that many flip-turn-upside-down completely unforseen twists in a novel since Use of Weapons.  .DON'T CLICK THESE SPOILERS!!!!! Most certainly the second decapatant is Kellhus. How he gets a physical form again will be a good deus ex machina. possibly literally. But to go deeper Finding out that this entire 6+ book series has been an elaborate fanfiction for Aliens is pretty LOL. Did not expect to discover the Inchoroi were engineered sranc-esque shock troopers who were following the instructions of an AI up until the ship crashed and aren't really capable of anything fancy. Thinking Mog-Pharau was a helicopter seems almost quaint now. And speaking of that... I think I've asked this before, but is there any reference to humans being present in Earwa before the ark crashes? Now that we know the Inchoroi didn't build it and were not the masters, it leaves the question of who did and who is. We've seen, twice now, groups of humans gain absolute control over the ruins there, and the sarcophagus of Mog-Pharau is clearly seeking something unique in humans. A genetic key? Either way, there's a commentary on religious dogma and telephone here which is great. All we have to go on concerning the actual purpose of the carapace is the word of some semi-lobotomized weapons who've been stranded here for ten thousand years and worship a furnace. Really reliable sources on how to avoid damnation! The appendices are jammed with tasty tidbits which hijt just enough to entice but not to give anything away. Spending half the book discussing depravity was pretty blah. Had no shock value, seemed camp even. didn't carry nearly the same weight as Caraskand did, of the deathmatch Erikson wrote in Deadhouse Gates. Maybe I am just old and jaded, but it really just felt flat. I need time to recover, gather my thoughts, good thing the last two books are probably like a decade off if they even get published. I can't say I would be sad if this is where it ends forever, either. This whole series has been great at pissing on genre conventions, and a simple "the gambit failed and the world ends, gently caress you" would be much better than aping GRRM. Rime fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 06:46
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Chapter (18?) makes it pretty clear that the Inchoroi were the cargo and under the command of a higher power until the crash occurred and destroyed most of the ark, at which point Sil took power by controlling access to the inverse flame that they jerk off to or w/e. The Ark is like a big goddamn derelict from Alien, except the xenomorphs are sentient, kinda, and we haven't found the space jockey yet.
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Jul 12, 2017 22:25
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The glossary for this book is intriguing for the tidbits its dropping, I'm starting to wonder if Bakker is going to go full Matrix on us. Lots of hinted references to "system interfaces" and stuff. Unanswered questions here are making GRRM look tame, goddamn.
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Jul 14, 2017 00:29
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papa horny michael posted:How come this book felt rushed? I think Bakker spent 30 years writing the first trilogy and cranked out the second in just under a decade, with a couple of years spent on TUC, which definitely lead to this last novel feeling pretty "light" on the detail. I wonder how much the behind-the-scenes shitshow over publication had to do with it, and how much is because Bakker originally planned to end the series here on the ultimate "gently caress you guys,  " note of the world ending in apocalypse; but is now putting out another two novels to tie things up further.
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Jul 19, 2017 18:49
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Given the shitshow with the publisher I wonder if there was an editor involved at all, tbqh.
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Jul 19, 2017 20:08
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I was sorely tempted to change the title to Better Than loving a Hole in a Corpse but I think our current one is a better representation of the series as a whole.
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Jul 20, 2017 05:57
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:No, no, no, and no. You're right, Rothfus is such better world builder. 
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Jul 22, 2017 00:10
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The fountain of Rothfuss hath run dry at this point, milked like the teat of an aging crone, and BoTL yet hungered for more threadshitting.
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Jul 23, 2017 02:02
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I'm not sure what your purpose is here beyond making yourself feel smug, since we're all just kinda blankly responding to your song and dance with "Uhhhh, ok, anyways...." 
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Jul 24, 2017 08:32
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:How can you guys have been on the internet for as long as you have and not recognize someone who argues only to win? This is all very true and it would be nice if the book barn mods were as vicious as the D&D ones when it comes to handing down super long probations for serial threadshitting. 
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Jul 25, 2017 05:21
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Yeah, I can't think of a published work of fiction whichh doesn't use italics in that fashion, 'cept maybe the bible.
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Jul 30, 2017 14:48
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Phanatic posted:How did Kelmomas *get there*? Esement tosses him a file when he is in captivity, and he subsequently escapes. He is shown later murdering a scylvendi scout and then being picked up by a skin-spy who has shifted to portray Esmenet. Behind the curtain of the interim I would presume he spouts off about how special he is and how Kellhus tried to have him killed, which prompts the skin-spy to bring him to the consult. Cue salting.
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Aug 1, 2017 21:51
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Memnaelar posted:I remember when there were mods who could serve as a bulwark against the threadshitting. I have hit the report button oh so many times. It does nothing.
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Aug 2, 2017 06:03
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Yeah, if you read the TUC appendices there is a fuckton of stuff which is never mentioned in the narrative and only drops tantalizing breadcrumbs about the true nature of the Ark and such. Do recommend.
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Aug 2, 2017 22:19
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kcroy posted:What is the etiquete on spoiler tagging? Like, do we keep it up for a month or two? There's a fairly long segment where Moengus strangles Proyas to death so that he isn't burned alive, harangues his father about it, and is rebuked for it.
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Aug 3, 2017 02:58
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kcroy posted:Does the ending qualify as a weirdly literal twist on "Deus ex Machina"? And rather than it fixing everything magically, it results in the absolute bad ending for everyone involved? Yeah, I'm down with that, that's the kind of end note that feels appropriate for this series.
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Aug 13, 2017 00:49
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Amuys posted:Aurax having a mental breakdown because his brother died made me legitimately sad while the eldritch abomination dragon screaming CUNNY made me burst out laughing Even if you're a genetically engineered bioweapon which runs mostly on animal impulses, with a brain crippled from immortality and centuries of brutal experimentation, it must be genuinely shattering to realize that you are the sole remaining member of your entire species.
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Aug 18, 2017 03:23
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I strongly agree that this book needed a shitton more editing and time in the oven, but it was spelled out in big unmistakable neon block letters that the Inchoroi were engineered shock troopers on the ship and that both the actual crew and the AI have been dead since Arkfall, with Sil being the only one among them who kinda-sorta understood the tech enough to get things working again. They've been trying for centuries to reboot their AI core by shoving humans into it, and following the extermination of everyone except A&A they had zero ability to use their technology at all. It's like asking why two shipwrecked marines, one reduced to a drooling idiot, can't just fix up some nukes and fire them off.
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Sep 30, 2017 20:14
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I mean, I think the finale here was deeply flawed, but I will respect Bakker vastly more as an author if he has the balls to can any further sequels and stick with the narrative of his original vision. I'm really loving sick of series bloat for $$$ these days.
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Nov 28, 2017 02:48
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