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Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.





My own issue with all the Exalted hacks is that they always seem to be reaching towards Nobilis when my own inner view of Creation is a lot closer to WWWRPG.

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Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


Fallen Rib

Nessus posted:

My own issue with all the Exalted hacks is that they always seem to be reaching towards Nobilis when my own inner view of Creation is a lot closer to WWWRPG.

Weapon of the Gods/Legend of the Wulin is a fairly crunchy wuxia action RPG with extensive rules for kung fu, chi medicine, and great works ranging from the promotion of Taoism over Confucianism (or vice versa) in a village to political maneuvering to armies battling it out (using a system I believe was written by one Jenna Moran) and it's always been the first game I've thought of whenever the discussion turns to Exalted and the hacking thereof.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Nessus posted:

My own issue with all the Exalted hacks is that they always seem to be reaching towards Nobilis when my own inner view of Creation is a lot closer to WWWRPG.

Okay now I'm interested in Exalted again.

"What're you gonna do, Mnemon, what're you gonna do when Solarmania runs wild! On! Youuuuu!"

Communist Zombie
Nov 1, 2011


Kavak posted:

Is the author for that still alive? Has he ever dropped hints about what his future plans were now that the comic's clearly dead?

Last I heard was that sometime after he stopped the comic due to carpal tunnel syndrome, or a similar hand issue, he was doing Lunarquest(?) on some image board (dont ask me why he started an image quest thread while on hiatus from comic production due to a literally crippling hand injury), but that was years ago and I dont even know if Lunarquest even got 'completed'.

Monathin
Sep 1, 2011


Communist Zombie posted:

Last I heard was that sometime after he stopped the comic due to carpal tunnel syndrome, or a similar hand issue, he was doing Lunarquest(?) on some image board (dont ask me why he started an image quest thread while on hiatus from comic production due to a literally crippling hand injury), but that was years ago and I dont even know if Lunarquest even got 'completed'.

If it was a comic based on an imageboard I'm going to take a wild guess and say 'no'.

reignonyourparade
Nov 15, 2012


I think part of it was it was much simpler art than he felt needed to be done for the comic, so it worked for getting back into the swing of things so to speak. He swapped out for a couple other quests (with the intent to get back to it eventually) and the "current" one is some sort of bizarre crossover of two other quests from that site that gets a new update every few months at best.

Keiya
Aug 22, 2009

Come with me if you want to not die.


I wish he'd at least update the drat news post.

Crasical
Apr 22, 2014

GG!*
*GET GOOD


Keiya posted:

I mostly fell in love with it because of Keychain of Creation. And I like going through the fluff parts of the books. Basically I love Exalted (setting) so much that I'm willing to overlook the problems with Exalted (game) and just play something else in the setting.



KoC is great and I still have it's RSS bookmarked. I don't really expect it to come back, but hey. Maybe one day...

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.





Kavak posted:

Okay now I'm interested in Exalted again.

"What're you gonna do, Mnemon, what're you gonna do when Solarmania runs wild! On! Youuuuu!"
Well it wouldn't necessarily be LITERALLY like that, but my idea for Exalts is way more like "empowered idiots who are running around being dumbasses but they are talented and lucky and magical enough that things at least approximately work out, for a while." This is not incompatible with all the grand dooms and poo poo, it makes the Bronze Faction sort of the ultimate Fun Police if perhaps with the fair point of "maybe we're getting a little TOO exuberant here."

An example here, half remembered, is the metaplot about the Haslanti, where Gerd Marrow-eater, who seems to be John Q. Randomlunar, inspires an entire society and leads them to overthrow Guild hegemony in the area, even to the point of realizing that it would be clever of him to let them win the fourth battle on their own and thus have their own heroism. He then obviously makes some poo poo up and peaces out, and the Haslanti listen to his random poo poo, take it to heart, and it works out, because that was completely sweet.

From an external perspective, it was Some Guy, and he did a Real Cool Thing, and now a nation honors his memory and lives in part by his example. It feels like in Exalted now, at least from the Solar perspective, you wouldn't get something like that -- compare in the same metaplot stuff to the Bull of the North, who mostly seems to be "I'm a Bull guy and a Solar, so that means I win fights. Realm sucks though."

I guess the concise difference is between "You are going to succeed, it's inevitable. But what happens then?" versus "you can try anything and you've got a shot but you'd better think fast and improvise." The former seems to be basically how Solars roll and that's what we got for the next couple years, so

e: to use a wrasslemans analogy, Solars are Cena and Roman Reigns, or possibly the ongoing parade of old farts and part-timers being put over all the younger and more interesting talent.

Nessus fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Apr 23, 2016

Adnachiel
Oct 21, 2012




Part 3: How to Play a Wicked Character Using Charts

Annabelle Deville posted:

To be wicked, you must commit yourself to being twice the witch as everyone else. A wicked witch who isn't up to that usually doesn't last or worse turns into a Hench-Witch (which to me is a faith worse than binding.)

Yes, I know you see all the great ones, Denora Desade, Olivia Maxis and Anna Raj living extravagant lives , but trust me, they paid their dues to do so and so must you.

Meanwhile, Lucinda probably already has her pegged as her top Hench-Witch.

Wicked Ways posted:

Supplements not only add new information but no rules , abilities, cliques and more to the game for Stars and Directors.

This book is about as long as the Respelled one and this chapter and the fourth one are why. Itís a poo poo ton of new character creation options. It also has this lovely picture right at the start.



Yes, Iím pretty sure that is Harris and Soto getting transformed into furniture by their underage NPCs.

First up is the new cliques. As to be expected, they are all different archetypes of wicked characters.

Brat

Annabelle Deville posted:

...Witches like Lucinda Nightbane do not care about your rules. She has the power and right to do as she pleases and cares not how others view her. She is the princess and everyone else is just peasants shuddering in her presence.

Brats are ignorant little shits who think all of the bad things they do are normal, and ignore everyone who says otherwise. They also tend to have goals behind their wickedness and are loyal to their friends because Lucinda is obviously part of this clique and they need to say something positive about her. Even though her old skill block shows that she definitely knows that what sheís doing is wrong and just doesnít give a gently caress. Their starting bonuses are Tantrum (+1 to rolls against the first target that hits her in combat while losing 2 points in Reflex) and Wicked Wonder. (+1 to rolls when doing wicked deeds. If itís a spell, they can spend a zap point to do +5 damage or make the spell permanent.)

Bully

Annabelle Deville posted:

Jennifer Beaudeux loves to intimidate and threaten and knows that her "attitude" can get almost as much due as her magic.

I'm not a fan of her or her methods but you have to admit, they get the job done.

I donít know if I prefer the cotton candy swirl or the anime hair on herÖ

Bullies like to establish a natural pecking order by making others fear them. Also ďmany are brave to the point of foolhardy knowing seeking weakness as the greatest weaknessĒ, whatever that means. Their starting bonuses are The Glare (targets get a -1 to all rolls against them for D6 minutes and cannot take any actions against them if they fail a Will vs Will roll. This has a range of 30 feet and costs 1 zap.) and Wicked Rage (+1 to rolls to do wicked actions and wicked attacks cause +D6 damage and ignore D6 points of armor).

Imp

Annabelle Deville posted:

Olivia Saks is a wild child of a witch who sees the world as her personally play ground.

While undisciplined she unlike many of us doesn't take herself to seriously and lives life with gusto.

Imps like to make chaos reign (which is apparently the new raison d'Ítre of all witches) and show others how to have fun. That latter aspect tends to make them a lot of friends. Their starting bonuses are Wild Magic (can mimic a spell from a type she doesnít know once a day at the cost of double zap and with the restriction that it canít be of a rank higher than her highest one) and Twisted Wicked. (+1 to rolls to do wicked actions, successful and funny actions make the target lose their next action. This only works once per target per combat scene.)

Prima-Donna

Annabelle Deville posted:

It goes without saying I'm perfect. It's a known fact that others should just accept.

Yes I know most people can't. I blame their inferiority and the fact I've set the bar so high they know being my equal is futile.

Prima-Donnas think theyíre perfect and get frustrated when others donít acknowledge their perfection. On the plus side, they tend to make others want to be more confidentÖ somehow. Their starting bonuses are Ego-defense (Can spend a zap to add her Social die to rolls to resist damage) and Wicked and Right. (+1 to rolls to do wicked actions, +2 if theyíre Will or Social rolls.)

Ringleader

Annabelle Deville posted:

Claudia Deville [sic], Daughter of the Wicked Witch of the West Coast, Denora Deville is for lack of a better my frenemy.

She hates me, I hate here but I do admire her ability to get wicked things dine and organize her minions.

Ringleaders use minions to get things done and are well known for their excellent organizational skills. Their starting bonuses are Minions (10 starting allowance points to spend on minions) and Wicked with a Plan (+1 to rolls to do wicked actions; minions and allies helping her get the bonus as well).

The book says that they are slightly more powerful than the vanilla ones from Respelled, but starting stats wise, theyíre pretty much on par with the standard cliques. All of the new cliques get 10 starting Magic ranks; D8s or 10s for their Magic die; a die spread of either a D4, three D6s, and a D8; or a D4 and four D6s; and either 15/15 starting skill points or a 12/18 or vice versa spread. None of them have Niches.

Next is a rundown on 3 new Classes: Nobility (Wealth 4; +1 to Social; a free rank of Charm, Gossip, and Leader), Traveler (Wealth 2; +1 to Body; 2 free ranks in Language, Hide, and/or (due to a missing word) Streetwise), and Underworld (characterís family is an organized crime group; Wealth 3, +1 to Will, 2 free ranks in Streetwise and Urchin). None of them are higher than Rich, but Rich doesnít get a bonus in one of its attributes. So thereís something of a fair tradeoff now, I guess.

Next is Skills. Thereís only one new skill: Insult. The rest is just a rundown of all the ways you can be an rear end in a top hat using some of the existing ones. As for the other onesÖ

Fib has a difficulty chart and is contested by Will.



Leadership has a new ďSuperviseĒ action that lets them give +1 roll bonuses to another person for a minute or combat scene if they succeed on an Easy roll for one person, or a Hard one for a group. They also have a ďTacticsĒ action, which comes with another big old chart.



If they fail the roll, everyone involved gets -2 Reflex to dodge attacks and -3 Armor. Tactics can be resisted with Mind + Tactics... even though itís not a separate skill.

Leadership is also either a Mind skill or a Social skill depending on whether you go by the chart at the top of the section or the blurb for it.

Scare can be used to ďIntimidateĒ (-1 to rolls against them with a successful Scare vs Will or Plucky roll) and ďBreakĒ (three successful Intimidate rolls in a row makes them obedient to you if they fail an Easy roll to resist for an hour) targets.

Urchin now has a roll chart for picking different types of locksÖ



Öand can be used to pick pockets by rolling it against the targetís Mind or Senses.

Insult is a mundane Social skill that determines how well you can verbally poo poo on a person. It has two sub-actions: "Belittle" (give a target a -1 penalty to rolls with a successful Insult vs Will or Plucky roll) and "Taunt" (Belittle, except it also forces the target to attack them until they are either defeated or resist the insult with an Easy Will roll).

On the magical side, here are two new skills: Naming and Sympathetic Magic (which was an ability/knack in Coventry). Unlike other skills, they have prerequisites. Naming requires Casting 4 and Mysticism 3 before you can use it, and Sympathetic Magic requires Casting, Craft (which isnít a skill), and Curse 2. There's no mention of what happens when you fulfill the requirements. Do you get a rank automatically? Do you have to put points into them?

Naming is a system developed by the Fae that is used to augment spells and dig up info on other people. It requires learning a personís true name. For mundanes, itís just their full name. For inanimate objects and animals, itís just a generic name that is commonly known. For magical people, itís more complicated.

Wicked Ways posted:

Magical people know this all if not most have a true name they keep hidden. This name is usually known only to the magical person and possibly a close friend or parent. A powerful enough name (What masters of naming call themselves) can also change a person's true name once they know the original true name. In doing so they can even change their personality or even their form )

I should point out that up until now, there has been no mention of this true names stuff or witches taking on alias to prevent this from happening. Every witch NPC thatís been introduced goes by the name their parents gave them. So Iím going to guess Harris saw the shadow name/true name stuff from Changeling or Mage and thought it would be cool to add it in despite the fact that thereís no in-verse justification for it.

To discover a true name, you need to do a series of Impossible rolls or ask the DM to run a personal campaign for you.

Wicked Ways posted:

Finding a person's true name is near impossible (Literally taking a successive with out fail Impossible Gossip, Mysticism and Naming roll over the course of D12+8 days of research to succeed.) The best way to find a true name is either ask or through an adventure courtesy of a director.

If you recall, an Impossible check requires rolling an 18-22.

Once a personís name is discovered, the namer has to spend 2 zap and succeed on a Magic vs Magic roll against them. The namee knows instantly when it is happening. Failure means they can never use that name again. Succeeding lets the namer use the personís name do all of this crap.



People who have had their names used like this can resist their tormentorís spells by spending the same amount of zap points spent on the spell and succeeding on a Hard Will or Spell Breaking roll.

Sympathetic Magic is the art of using voodoo dolls, called ďpoppetsĒ here. Doing this lets you get around the range limits of spells. To make one, you get a bit from the person or thing, spend 5 zap, make a Hard Sympathetic magic roll, and wait the targetís Resist Magic score in hours, or 3 + D4 hours for non-magical items. If the target has a higher Resist Magic than the creator, they canít make a poppet for them.

When using one, you add 2 to the zap cost and can do all of this stuff.



Witches who suspect that someone has made a poppet of them can do an Easy roll to find it.

Wicked Ways posted:

Witches suspecting poppet use can use Sympathetic magic , Curse or Divination magic to Find a poppet. This takes an easy Sympathetic magic or Casting roll and like a poppet has a limit range to determine the location of the poppet.

To demonstrate one of the many ways a poppet can be used, here's a picture of Lucinda drowning someone.



(By the way, Lucinda doesn't have all of the requirements to use sympathetic magic.)

Next: More wicked character creation crap.

Adnachiel fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Apr 24, 2016

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Adnachiel posted:



Yes, Iím pretty sure that is Harris and Soto getting transformed into furniture by their underage NPCs.

So Lucinda is Soto's lezdom waifu? This is getting more uncomfortable by the book.

(Though I'm surprised that they include a picture with four characters where nobody smokes, and/or is turned into a cigarette.)

Kaza42 posted:

Double Cross has quite a few problems of its own, but one thing it absolutely gets right is the power writeups. It is always totally clear both A)What the power does and B)How to use it. They even have simple, effective rules for combining powers into unique superattacks or whatnot, and it all slots together in a straightforward, rigorous manner. That statblock style lets them made dozens of powers for each of their power sets, and have them all be immediately understood. I have only played a few sessions of it, but we didn't have any Exalted-style "What does this actually do" questions. My only real gripe is that sometimes the fluff and effect doesn't quite match up, but in that case you can just ignore the fluff because the crunch is so clear.

I don't see the individual power fluff as mandatory myself. They are more like building blocks anyways, unless you want to save up on Encroachment.

Spiderfist Island posted:

If I was the lead developer for Exalted, I would 1) separate PC and NPC character structure fully, 2) reduce the amount of charms and steps needed for character creation, 3) decrease most subsystem complexity and add realm management support, 4) include rules for PC Dragonblooded and Lunar Exalts in the core using the freed-up space, 5) introduce a generalized cross-splat charm tree system to replace the Martial Arts trees, and 6) get murdered by the fans and the other line designers.

I think they should've made most of the Charms generic and usable by all, giving the various splats maybe a couple unique ones and modifiers (or outright class powers instead of charms).

Kai Tave posted:

Weapon of the Gods/Legend of the Wulin is a fairly crunchy wuxia action RPG with extensive rules for kung fu, chi medicine, and great works ranging from the promotion of Taoism over Confucianism (or vice versa) in a village to political maneuvering to armies battling it out (using a system I believe was written by one Jenna Moran) and it's always been the first game I've thought of whenever the discussion turns to Exalted and the hacking thereof.

Really, Exalted sounds like Legend of the Wulin with all the bad stuff from WoD plus its own baggage of bad stuff, with a system too crunchy and unstable for what it's trying to do.

Keiya
Aug 22, 2009

Come with me if you want to not die.


I actually kinda like some of the outfits in tjat art. I wonder if she's stealing them from someone or if Soto actually has an eye for that (which she then ruins by inserting weird fetishy poo poo. And not even good weird fetishy poo poo honestly.)

Fossilized Rappy
Dec 26, 2012


Adnachiel posted:

Wicked Wonder. (+1 to rolls when doing wicked deeds. If itís a spell, they can spend a zap point to do +5 damage or make the spell permanent.)
It seems weird to me that permanency is such a cheap thing. I know, it's WGA and permanency is so cheap for a very specific reason, but something in my brain screams "that just kind of cheapens the magic".

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012







Chapter 1: After the Devouring - Part 1: Horrors
Who's ready for more chapter fiction that wasn't changed to suit the new narrative?

quote:

The nightmare began the same way it always did: with a slight tug. Ben had suffered the same nightmare as far back as he could remember, and yet when it began, it always managed to surprise him. This night was no different from any other in that respect. He was swimming with his sisters down at the shore, maybe a little farther away from the beach than they should. They were laughing and splashing when there was a tug on his foot. As if something large grabbed ahold for a moment.

It wasnít much, just enough to get his attention. One of his therapists had said the tug symbolized his fear of being dragged down by life pressures, which was in his opinion a bit over the top for a six year-old; when he was ten, a different therapist said it was his feeling of being left behind by his more academically successful siblings. Those therapists were right, in a way, but they always missed the larger point.

The thing in the dream was a monster, and it was pulling him down to die. No matter what realization Ben awakened with, that feeling never left him.

Right on schedule, another tug followed, pulling him under. Ben fought to surface, spitting out cold salt water, only to find himself alone, the sun hidden behind clouds, the beach deserted. That was the way it worked, each pull drawing him under longer, returning to a surface ever more bleak and inhospitable until it was almost indistinguishable from the blackness of the deep itself. Ben would go under a final time, something cold and rubbery gripping his leg dragging him down until he opened his mouth to scream and nothing but cold water flowed in, salt burning his lungs as he went numb. Heíd wake up soaked in sweat, the salt scent of it nearly making him gag reflexively as he remembered the sea. Heíd wake up understanding something, recognizing some obvious part of his life that was dragging him down, and heíd understand how to fix it.
Well i guess that's not entirely true, there was a little editing, and they added this sentence to try and justify the new 'teacher' narrative.

quote:

Except this time, he couldnít struggle to the surface. This time, the monster was going to finish him. Ben struggled a moment more, and then embraced it. When the cold tendril wrapped around him, Ben ducked under the water and grabbed hold of it. It was cold and rubbery and tough to hold on to, but he held fast when it released his leg, even as it dragged him down into the dark. Water pressure pounded in his ears and his chest burned as his air ran out, but still he held on, panic shifting to a giddy sense of defiance.

Benís eyes strained against the dark, seeing nothing in the blackness Ö until he realized it wasnít blackness at all. He wasnít blind, he was simply looking at something so vast and dark it might as well have been the abyss. In that moment, still clutching one of its countless tentacles, he forgot about drowning, and would never again remember it.

A single baleful eye opened, as large as a house, and it was the same strange blue-gray shade as his own. Ben stared at the eye as the tentacles enveloped him, pulling, tearing, rending him to pieces. And thenÖstillness.

Blackness.

Something in the dark. Something in his head. No. A face. A mother. The woman heíd seen in the lake all those years ago. His mother, now. Ben felt himself changing, becoming one with the Horror in the black sea, tears of joy mixed with the salt of the deep. He finally understood. All those nightmares, it was never trying to drown him.

It was calling him home.
But they didn't change any of this, implying that beasts are still born the way they are. And the fact that the sentence about gaining wisdom is kind of haphazardly tacked on in the middle with no real justification is a pretty good metaphor for the whole situation.

And then fiction part 2.


Tales of The Dark Mother: Shane posted:

Donít ever make the mistake of thinking we canít hit bottom. Weíre strong, sure. We wander through dreams and we rub elbows with werewolves, we do things that nine-tenths of the planet doesnít even know are possible. We can hit bottom, though. I hit bottom at a music festival in Tennessee, in June. It was 110 degrees during the day.

Six people died of heat stroke that weekend (well, four died of heat stroke, one died because she partied with a vampire and then got dehydrated, and the other oneÖIíll get to him). I ran out of drugs on the second night because some rear end in a top hat stole my stash while I was lying on the grass listening to some little band play. I could feel the music like tongues on my skin, I could feel the water leaving my body behind and my lips tasted like salt. I couldnít smell a thing, though. That always happens to me when I fix, donít ask me why.

The fucker who stole my stash, I found him the next morning. Sun was rising. I could hear people loving in tents, I could see the early risers making breakfast. This guy, his name was Fred or Frank or Fredo or something, heís got on a one-person tent and a lovely little car next to it, and I can smell that heís fixed just a minute ago. I unzipped the tent, and heís nodded off.

I tried to punish him. I did. I sat there with him for an hour, trying to think of the worst thing I could do to get him back for taking my poo poo. I tried to reach out to the monster inside, that great and terrible whale-thing that swallowed Jonah and belched up the remains of ships, but it had beached itself, and I was left there, sitting in a tent, watching this guy smile away the morning on my drugs.

I just laid down next to him, trying to think. I wanted more than anything to fix, but I also knew if I did that Iíd just be there with him all morning, probably into the afternoon. I turned over on my stomach, and I started to cry. And then I felt Her.

She pressed down on my back, Her weight forcing the air from my lungs. She didnít speak. She didnít need to. She let me know what I needed to know: I was on the bottom. I was dry, beached, stranded, maroonedÖbut She loved me. She would accept me if I could find my way back.
I left my poo poo there in the tent. Iím not saying the next few months didnít suck; they did. But at least I got to see them, and thatís more than I can say for Fredo.
Winners don't do drugs?

Beasts are divided into two splats, their Horror which is what kind of primal fear they represent, and their Hunger which is what kind of thing, physical or metaphorical, their beast feeds upon. Horrors determine what Atavisms you get access to, and each Horror has a unique power that's specific only to them.

Horrors


Anakim: Nightmares of Hopelessness

quote:

His instinct is to get out of the way as the fist comes down. With the adrenalin rush, he sees it practically in slow motion. But itís too big to dodge. It fills his vision as it collides with his face, a widescreen impact that sends him reeling across the room and wondering if his neck is broken. No, not broken, he can still feel. Feel his heart pounding against his rib cage. And feel those ribs crunch inwards with the next blow. And then feeling is gone, and sight is gone, and itís all sound. One sound: the monsterís rumbling laughter.
The Anakim are giants, figuratively if not literally. They are big and strong and cannot be beaten. "To be Anakim is to overwhelm your prey by the force of your own magnificent body. No one stands up to you. Who could, when you stand so tall?" "You are the fear that chases, the fear that crushes, the fear that tears limb from limb. Maybe someone called you unsubtle. Maybe that someone still has all their ribs. Maybe." I really have trouble sympathizing with any of these descriptions, as most of them are Egotistical "gently caress You, Got Mine" incarnate. The book then goes on to theorize that the Anakim were the firstborn of the dark mother when she mated with the terrors that she released upon the earth, or that they're the offspring of her and god, and that blood was spread throughout humanity. (PLEASE IGNORE THE PART OF THE BOOK WHERE THEY SAID BEASTS WERE NOT HEREDITARY KTHX).

We then get some example characters, including a street vigilante, a white hat safecracker, another street vigilante, and a big game hunter who kills animals with her bare hands. Charming. We also get some 'stories' in the human conciousness that beasts may have inspired, but it's all pretty standard 'the cyclops was an anakim! So were the Basque Basajaun! And every other time there was a monster and they were big.' stuff. We also get some example descriptions of how their horror feeds in nightmares. If they aren't going for the classic Fe-Fi-Fo-Fum thing, they're usually embodying an authority figure, a Principal, a boss, a parent. And even if there isn't physical violence there's a sense of hopelessness in the face of a superior force. "The dreamer is left with no doubt that might makes right, and that the Giant has all the right in the world." Which strikes me as particularly dangerous since instilling someone with the sense that might makes right would probably also make them inflict their might on those weaker than them. Hooray cycles of abuse!

Anakim Lairs usually include anything that makes movement difficult, or literally trap and imprison their victims. Their Birthright allows them to break through any physical obstacle without fail once a scene.


Anakim Stereotypes posted:

Vampire: Their greatest power is in the blood. Itís not the way I do things, but it works.

Werewolf: The spirit wilds have things that are bigger, and yet youíre still the thing they fear. Nice work.

Mage: When I say ďnot all giants tower,Ē itís these guys Iím talking about.

Promethean: Iím impressed at how much punishment your body can withstand, but you know thereís more to it than that, right?

Changeling: I think youíve already learned what I have to teach.

Sin-Eater: I knock you down. You get up. OK. But if a ghost helps you up, does that still count?

Mummy: No one judges me.

Demon: What would happen if I tore off your masks? Would anything remain?
That Demon quote is somewhat infamous amongst Beast's detractors because the answer to that question is "Yes, a very angry Demon at full power who is probably going to kill you because you just ruined their only chance at happiness."


Eshmaki: Nightmares of Darkness

quote:

She knows it by its eyes. She hasnít seen its face, hasnít heard its footstepsÖ come to think of it, she hasnít even really seen the eyes, either. Sheís just seen them reflected, shining in the darkened shop window or the rear view of a car she passes. Itís after her. Should she run? Scream? If she did, would the fantasy of the lurker burst like a soap bubble and leave her free? But she does none of those things, and this time, she feels its breath on her neck.
Eshmaki are the fear of the dark. Well they're the fear of things that live in the dark, because they're things that live in the dark. They're also sort of the fear of being alone but that's also trod upon by other Horrors. What they don't say is that the Eshmaki are also dragons, sort of. Thankfully there are more interesting sample characters

quote:

They say children can see monsters. Theyíre wrong, at least about him. Heís only seen in his day job, as the administrator of a juvenile justice facility. His facilityís got one of the cleanest records in the state. After lights out, he stalks the corridors of the building, seeing what no one else can see, guarding against the dangers the children bring inside with them or foment when given too much time to themselves. Heíd never hurt any of ďhis kidsĒÖ but theyíre here to learn a lesson, and he isnít shy about teaching them.
Well, that's not... too bad.

quote:

She only wants what belongs to her. She was disinherited, with everything taken and distributed to relatives who couldnít give a drat about her childhood memories, much less her material needs. So sheís taking things back, one by one, night after night. She snatches her heirlooms and leaves things in their place. Deadly things. Poison syringes, pipe bombs. Victim by victim, those wicked relatives are dying off. One day, maybe even soon, sheíll be the only kin left standing.
...Oh.

quote:

He knows what itís like to be on the outside, but he likes it there very much. He gets to watch people. Happy people. Sad people. Loving people. He sets up camp every night across the street from the only bar in town, and watches the little people go about their lives, blissfully unaware that they share their town with a monster. Heís very strict with his Horror. He only lets it feed with abandon every few years, but oh, what a glorious feast. To take one of those happy people and break their neck before they can even stop smiling, and then to feast on the flesh. The rest of the happy people cling their loved ones tighter, and shiver, and think ďthere but for the grace of God.Ē And he watches, sated.
That's not how feeding works

quote:

Every day, the elite get away with things. Those people are her prey, but itís not so much the injustice she worries about. Life isnít fair or balanced, after all. Itís that they think theyíre better. That they think itís more than an accident of birth or fortune that let them use and discard people like tissue. She knows about accidents of fortune. Thatís how she became what she is: not just the Beast, but also a very rich woman. So she mixes with them, learns their secrets and their sins, and then, when the acquaintance is over and thereís nothing to connect her to her prey, she strikes. Brakes that fail. A fall from a penthouse balcony. A lover goaded into a jealous rage. She doesnít kill them, not usually. She wants them to learn that luck doesnít make them better or safer. Luck cuts both ways.
"The rich need to be put in their place", fan tast ic.

The only notable historical figure the Eshmaki claim amongst their numbers is Grendel, Because.. sure. The horror inflicts nightmares of being stalked, or being alone, usually the only notable feature of such dreams are a pair of glowing eyes in the dark. Their lairs allow them to stalk their prey, but rarely inflict damage (that's for the Eshmaki alone), and their Birthright lets them automatically inflict a Tilt on an unsuspecting target with a successful brawl or weaponry attack.

Eshmaki Stereotypes posted:

Vampire: When the world was young, it was your kind and mine, together in the shadows. Do any of you remember?

Werewolf: You watch boundaries. I live in them. Letís be friends.

Mage: When you look so long, so deep, in the dark, what looks back? It isnít me, if thatís what you were thinking.

Promethean: I get being on the outside. Thing is, I like it here.

Changeling: Youíre worried about being taken? I could watch you. Just to make sure.

Sin-Eater: Youíre never quite alone now, are you? Do you know what your Other thinks, or is it always justÖwatching?

Mummy: The longer you walk, the less in the dark you are. I know how Iíd feel about that.

Demon: I like my prey to be multiple choice!
That mage quote is so amazingly smug.


Makara: Nightmares of the Depths

quote:

Itís strange, because heís almost forgotten heís going to drown. Heís still holding his breath, but the rush of the water by his ears is so steady, itís almost hypnotic, the drag of the hand on his foot so unyielding, itís almost gentle. Thereís a sense of leaving the world behind, the surface, the cares, all that breathable air. What did he need it for, anyway? Still he holds his breath, and still he sinks deeper, and as he hears the siren call like whalesong, heís faintly aware that his lungs are about to burst. And thenÖ black. Nothing but the deeps and the end of time.
Makara are the fear of drowning and beasts in the water. But of course "You're a link to the drowned history of humanity, to the knowledge that the oceans have reclaimed. To the sunken temples and lost continents, to the ugly wreckage and watery graves." "People like to forget that the oceans dominate the planet, that the blood in their veins is just nature's way of letting them carry a little of it around so they can survive in an unnatural environment. You know better." I'll leave you with some character examples as my eyes have just rolled out of my head.

quote:

The swimming hole is his. Sure, in the summer, the kids can play there. He allows that. He allows the adults to come by and throw coins in, making a wish on a whim. But it belongs to him. Only he knows how deep it really goes. Only he has touched the mind of the thing that slumbers there. The thing that grants those wishes when it wants to, the thing that makes everyone regret wanting. Itís the thing that tells him the secrets. Who wants what. Who wants whom. And those secrets are very lucrative indeed.
That doesn't make any sense.

quote:

She likes to think of herself as a classic. She finds remote beaches, swims out far enough, and lures someone into the water. Sometimes she pretends to drown, while other times she just looks alluring. Either way, she lures her prey and shows them the wonders of the deepÖ for as long as their lungs will hold. And then she takes whatever they leave on shore. Waste not, want not.
Yay time to teach people things and then murder and rob them! We're the good guys!

The Makara's horror causes nightmares of drowning and suffocation. The dreams might start innocently enough with a cruise, but always end with drowning. Other times they're lured into the water by a siren, finding they no longer care about breathing. Their lairs are the most likely to have damaging traits (apparently?) and are usually watery. Their birthright allows them to impose a sense of drowning or claustrophobia on a victim. It imposes the feeling of drowning, not an actual loss of airflow, so things that don't have to breathe are still affected.

Makara Stereotypes posted:

Vampire: You donít drown. My place, then?

Werewolf: The sharks of the land, and I mean that in the best possible way.

Mage: Abyss? Youíre looking at her.

Promethean: Youíre drowning in an ocean of sorrow. Let me drown you someplace nicer.

Changeling: Youíve seen depths I can only imagine. When youíre ready, Iíll listen.

Sin-Eater: Weíre both drawn to deep places; perhaps the nightmares we find there are not so different.

Mummy: Youíve forgotten something out there, buried deep in the desert. Something you fear. I can wash away the sands.

Demon: Theyíve mistaken depth for dressing in layers.

Despite how this looks, they used to be worse.


Namtaru: Nightmares of Revulsion

quote:

He reminds himself that he didnít follow her out here for her pretty face. It wasnít that kind of lure. No, she promised him what he needed, the only thing that makes his heart still beat like it was in love. As he turns the corner though, behind the dumpster, he sees that her face has melted away, that heís looking at something from an older and more terrifying world. He screams, but her hand is on his face, scratching lightly, and the poison burns to work in his veins. Not the poison he was after, but it will have to do.
Oh yes supernatural ugliness. That's fantastic. "Those who call you ugly miss the point. 'Ugly' is just another one of those things in the eye of the beholder. No, you're hideous, terrifying to normal people on a level as atavistic as the heritage that made you a beast." Oh and beasts are hereditary again. That's good.

quote:

Sheís the last thing youíll ever see. Not a murderess, not an angel of death, but the night shift nurse. They keep her on nights because she has a habit of upsetting visitors. Sheís plainspeaking, rough-voiced. She offers no comfort where it would be illusory, no word of kindness where it would be forced. But put her on at nightÖ and, well, some of the problems seem to go away. Whatever it is that lives in the basement and sucks the life out of patients when theyíre nearing the endÖ itís afraid of her. And so, when your time comes naturally, the last thing youíll see is her smiling, ugly, rough-hewn, face.
So she doesn't lie about the prospects of her patients but she does prolong their suffering. Hooray.

quote:

He works in a clinic, the kind where they give free needles to junkies to try and curb the spread of disease just a little bit, even if they canít do anything about the spread of addiction. He doesnít let anybody push his patients around, either, the skeletal, odious, half-day nocturnal folks who come here to get their works. He isnít one of them, but he looks like he is, and he gets the same stares. When he started at the clinic, he fed his Horror with the fears of the addicts, thinking to teach them about the perils of using. Heís learned, though, that they donít need his lessons. The people who spit on them do.
Keep note of this one for later.

Unsurprisingly, the Gorgons are seen as the progenitors of the Namtaru and..well..

quote:

The Namtaru hold a special place of reverence for the original Gorgons. You see, Medusa was raped by Poseidon in the temple of Athena. It was an ugly crime. When Medusaís sister, Stheno, cried out for justice, Athena gave the family an ugly blessing: Medusa and her sisters became the chosen of the Goddess of War, given the power to bring vengeance against the wicked. The gaze of one of these original Gorgons could freeze a manís blood in his veins, even turn him to stone. For centuries, Medusa and her sisters traveled the ancient world, destroying evils no one else could touch. Medusa had always been too kindhearted for her own good, however; when the Hero Perseus made her face the blood on her hands, she died of grief.
why do those heroes do such terrible things.

The Horrors of a namtaru unleash nightmares of maggoty things bursting through doorways. Rotting hands reaching out of drawers. They might 'wake' paralyzed and unable to move while the Namtaru hovers over them and does horrible things tot heir body. They might brand or disfigure them and set them loose upon their family to be sent away in terror. Their lairs are poisonous or hazardous and prevent recovery. Their birthright allows them to lower someones composure if they lock eye contact.


Namtaru Stereotypes posted:

Vampire: Those night terrors you leave them with, sweat soaked and crying for their mothersÖis that how you dream of me? Letís find out.

Werewolf: Do you want them to fear you? Or does it justÖhappen that way?

Mage: Mysteries, you say. The uglier and more horrifying the better? Well, my place or yours?

Promethean: These people who reject you. Why do you let them?

Changeling: You hide your face, too.
Sin-Eater: Your dead companion is ugly enough for the both of you.

Mummy: We both keep Lairs, but yours was built for you and I dreamed mine. What would you choose?

Demon: Youíre a virus. You infect everyone you touch with your fears and paranoia. I canít decide if I should thank you or end you.
I should point out that Beasts hate Demons for some reason. They just do, it isn't adequately explained but Beasts hate Demons.


Ugallu: Nightmares of Exposure

quote:

Stay with the car. Thatís what they always tell you, stay with the car. Donít set out across the desert by your lonesome. Donít risk the scorching days and the freezing nights and the endless thirst tromping somewhere you might never be found. She didnít listen, though. She didnít even remember. She just had to get as far away from that wreck as she could, because she couldnít bear to see who sheíd just lost to it. Sheís been aware of the shape overhead for hours now. Itís been watching her. Itís not a natural thing, not part of the experience of a college student driving south for spring break. But itís there, and she knows itís waiting. Finally, as the sun dips below the horizon, she lies down and lets it take her.
Ugallu are exposure, both literal and figurative. Both being lost alone out in the open with no escape, and having all your secrets laid bare with no recourse. But their horror is the flying beast above them, waiting to swoop down upon the empty plain and end their suffering. Ugallu care not for blind alleyways or dense forests, for they are in the sky and only care about the path between up and down.

quote:

He rolls his eyes when they talk about chemtrails. Heís a cropsprayer by trade and he doesnít like the anti-science bullshit spouted by fringe elements. He particularly doesnít like the black marks it puts on small aviators, the ones who make modern agriculture possible. Heís never been able to master flying under his own power, so he needs that little plane to get up where he belongs. And he needs money to keep flying. So when those tick-tock men come with their mysterious ďfertilizerĒ and cryptic instructions, he takes the payload and he takes the cash. But still, he rolls his eyes.

What does that have to do with beasts? How does it involve him hunting, or feeding? It doesn't, it's... just a dig at fringe quacks.

The Horror of an Ugallu creates nightmares of exposure. Lost and alone without shelter or food. Or those dreams where you're naked in class, yeah that's an Ugallu too apparently. Their lairs are stark landscapes, and their birthright allows them to find anything or anyone hidden.

Ugallu Stereotypes posted:

Vampire: Iíll blot out the sun with my wings for you.

Werewolf: You take the ground, Iíll take the sky. By morning, itís all ours.

Mage: Icarusí mistake wasnít flying. It was flying badly.

Promethean: If itís any comfort, from up there you look the same as any of them.

Changeling: Iíll see them coming before you do. Make a deal with me.

Sin-Eater: I admit, your Underworld makes me uncomfortable. Itís so close in there.

Mummy: Everything about you is a tapestry. I canít wait to unravel it. Then you can see how it was made!

Demon: Didnít fall far enough, apparently.

That's enough time spent on that stuff. Next time I'll be covering the different types of Hungers


So what's different?

Most specifically, the Stereotypes. They were changed to make Beasts less immediately obvious as assholes. And to give the other splats an actual reason to want to interact with them.

Anakim

Old Anakim Stereotypes posted:

Vampire: Control isnít love. Trust me.

Werewolf: You can call that big. I guess.

Mage: Pure discipline, wasted on sacks of meat.

Promethean: Youíre strong. Youíre indestructible. There ainít room for the both of us.

Changeling: Why strike bargains with the people you tower over?

Sin-Eater: People shouldnít get back up after Iíve torn them down. Stop that!

Mummy: No one judges me.

Demon: What would happen if I tore off your masks? Would anything remain?
So yeah, the main 3 got changed to something that was actually somewhat complementary. Promethean, Changeling, and Sin Eater got altered a bit, but Mummy and Demon are still hostile.

Eshmaki

Old Makara Sterotypes posted:

Vampire: Just like a wine drunk. No sense of variety and you lose your poo poo at every party.

Werewolf: You watch boundaries. I violate them. Letís be friends.

Mage: Met one once. His dreams smelled of old knowledge, ancient and true. So I ate him.

Promethean: I get being on the outside. Thing is, I like it here.

Changeling: Youíre worried about being taken? I could watch you. Just to make sure.

Sin-Eater: Youíre never quite alone now, are you? Doesnít that get stifling?

Mummy: Of course I can kill it.

Demon: I like my prey to be multiple choice!
Much like before, the big three got made into positives. Though werewolf deserves special mention. Since, you know. "I violate Boundaries" is... very questionable wording. And the other five were left alone.

Makara

Old Makara Stereotypes posted:

Vampire: You donít drown. I donít have much use for that.

Werewolf: We both go places no one else can.

Mage: Abyss? Youíre looking at her.

Promethean: Youíre drowning in an ocean of sorrow. Let me drown you someplace nicer.

Changeling: You crossed hedge and thorn to get here? Call me back when youíve faced the sharks.

Sin-Eater: Weíre both drawn to deep places; perhaps the nightmares we find there are not so different.

Mummy: Youíve forgotten something out there, buried deep in the desert. Something you fear. I can wash away the sands.

Demon: Theyíve mistaken depth for dressing in layers.
Vampire, Werewolf, and Changeling made slightly more positive. Everyone else left alone. Though there seems to be a theme of Beasts telling changelings they haven't faced enough suffering.

Namtaru

Old Namtaru Stereotypes posted:

Vampire: Those night terrors you leave them with, sweat soaked and crying for their mothersÖis that how you dream of me? Letís find out.

Werewolf: You want them to fear you. I like that. But I prefer my prey moreÖsubstantial.

Mage: Mysteries, you say. The uglier and more horrifying the better? Well, my place or yours?

Promethean: These people who reject you. You need to learn to kill more of them.

Changeling: You hide your face, too.

Sin-Eater: Your dead companion is ugly enough for the both of you.

Mummy: We both keep Lairs. Iíll thank you to stay in yours.

Demon: Youíre a virus. You infect everyone you touch with your fears and paranoia. I canít decide if I should thank you or end you.
Not much has changed here, but what has changed is... important. The promethean quote. "WHY DON'T YOU MURDER PEOPLE?!" is probably the most tonedeaf evaluation of Promethean ever.

Ugallu

Old Ugallu Stereotypes posted:

Vampire: You take the ground, Iíll take the sky. By morning, itís all ours.

Werewolf: Itís only polite to eat what you kill.

Mage: The tighter you grasp, the faster you slip.

Promethean: If itís any comfort, from up there you look the same as any of them.

Changeling: I wish I could just carry you away. But that would bring flashbacks, wouldnít it?

Sin-Eater: You think you can see everything, the present and the past, but thereís a whole other world youíre missing just above your head.

Mummy: Everything about you is a tapestry. I canít wait to unravel it.

Demon: Didnít fall far enough, apparently.
So, Vampire and Werewolf's stereotype were switched for some reason, Mage was made less openly hostile. Changeling is... terrible. Same with Sin Eater. And Mummy and Demon were left alone.

So yeah, the running theme of Beasts being randomly antagonistic to Mummies and Demons was there from the beginning, though they used to be antagonistic to everyone. Reminder that everyone else is also supernaturally compelled to like Beasts.

There's also one sample character that got changed, that Namtaru who protected druggies at the hospital? He didn't do it to protect them, he did it so he could collect their used needles. The nurse who ensured that everyone lived to the fullest as miserable suffering shells? She's completely unaltered.

Up Next: Do you like terrible sample characters? Because we've got dozens of them.

Kurieg fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Apr 24, 2016

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




quote:

I should point out that Beasts hate Demons for some reason. They just do, it isn't adequately explained but Beasts hate Demons.

Didn't BHM design Demon? Why would you make your next line, which was the best received part of NWoD 2nd Edition, so antagonistic toward it?

I won't get too Count Chocula, but I don't mind a game taking an anti-establishment tact. But the loving smugness of the writing and the tone insisting "These guys are RIGHT and these guys are WRONG please ignore what each one actually does the hero is a PUA" spoils everything.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.





There seems to be a lot of anti-Demon sentiment among the White Wolf writers, I wonder why. It doesn't seem to be over the metaplot either, more about the mechanics.

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




You've got the "They say children can see monsters. " one in there twice, with different reactions each time.

I Am Just a Box
Jul 20, 2011
I belong here. I contain only inanimate objects. Nothing is amiss.



Kavak posted:

Didn't BHM design Demon? Why would you make your next line, which was the best received part of NWoD 2nd Edition, so antagonistic toward it?

I won't get too Count Chocula, but I don't mind a game taking an anti-establishment tact. But the loving smugness of the writing and the tone insisting "These guys are RIGHT and these guys are WRONG please ignore what each one actually does the hero is a PUA" spoils everything.

Presumably because having an exception case opens up hooks that some players might find cool, like from a Demon perspective you could go "ha ha, I'm something unprecedented you don't understand, I'm neat like that," and maybe because Demon is all wound up in spy games and not being picked out of a crowd, and the way Beasts find their fellow monsters to chat up would invade that atmosphere?

Like, the core idea there is not bad, but as you say, the facile, self-aggrandizing tone of Beast's writing beats it into a completely unappealing shape. And sometimes a nonsensical one; I'm sure Kurieg will get around to the inadequate presentation of the how and why of this rivalry later in the book.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012






Zereth posted:

You've got the "They say children can see monsters. " one in there twice, with different reactions each time.

Fixed that.

I Am Just a Box posted:

Presumably because having an exception case opens up hooks that some players might find cool, like from a Demon perspective you could go "ha ha, I'm something unprecedented you don't understand, I'm neat like that," and maybe because Demon is all wound up in spy games and not being picked out of a crowd, and the way Beasts find their fellow monsters to chat up would invade that atmosphere?

Beasts can still recognize Demons as supernatural.... which is... well, quite frankly huge. I'm not sure why Beasts are so hostile towards Demons, either because their themes are rather violently at odds with each other... or Matt might have had a falling out with Jess. But I haven't really heard one way or the other.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





Kurieg posted:

I'm not sure why Beasts are so hostile towards Demons, either because their themes are rather violently at odds with each other... or Matt might have had a falling out with Jess. But I haven't really heard one way or the other.

What does your heart tell you?

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012






Midjack posted:

What does your heart tell you?

Probably that he respects Demon too much and wants it to stand on it's own merits and not have Matt's new baby lording over them. He's a credited writer on the later books so it's unlikely he's dissatisfied with the line.

Scrap Dragon
Oct 6, 2013

SECRET TECHNIQUE:
DARK SHADOW
BLACK FALLEN ANGEL!




quote:

That doesn't make any sense.

This sounds like a reference to a scenario from blue book about a swimming hole that grants wishes. I think it was from Midnight Roads?

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



Scrap Dragon posted:

This sounds like a reference to a scenario from blue book about a swimming hole that grants wishes. I think it was from Midnight Roads?
Mysterious Places except that swimming hole only granted wishes in exchange for fresh blood shed by the wisher on the quarry's edge.

It is really awkward how three of the classes are, like, okay with/understanding of Changelings but then the Anakim one just sounds plain vile and the one in the Kickstarter for the fish is just straight up dismissive. There's just so much good/interesting in theory but the execution is tone-deaf crap and it just stumbles over everything, flailing fists made of hand as it bounces up and down with a foot wedged in its mouth. It's almost impressive if it wasn't so disheartening. The Makara think they're hot poo poo but they're nothing compared to what lies North if you Seek The Name, that's a real master of dreams of drowning and endless hunger. There's so much better to find anywhere else.

That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah




quote:

Sin-Eater: I knock you down. You get up. OK. But if a ghost helps you up, does that still count?

Good loving Christ. This is one of the worst stereotype lines I've seen. A lot of these immediately bring to mind the latest F Plus where they read a bunch of "and then everyone applauded me as the bully ran away" stories.

oriongates
Mar 14, 2013

Validate Me!




Has there ever been a white wolf RPG in which the snide little "this is me smugly talking about X other being in the WOD" ever been any good?

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



Hunter.

oriongates
Mar 14, 2013

Validate Me!





Hah! That makes a lot of sense.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012






The Werewolf 2nd ones vary from "Actually pretty good" to "Eh, it makes sense." with only the Bone Shadows one actually standing out as "Okay shut up you assholes."

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Kurieg posted:

The Werewolf 2nd ones vary from "Actually pretty good" to "Eh, it makes sense." with only the Bone Shadows one actually standing out as "Okay shut up you assholes."

Which is fine because nobody plays them.

NutritiousSnack
Jul 12, 2011


That Old Tree posted:

Good loving Christ. This is one of the worst stereotype lines I've seen. A lot of these immediately bring to mind the latest F Plus where they read a bunch of "and then everyone applauded me as the bully ran away" stories.

This fiction is so bad it's unbelievable. Like the anti feminist mass murderer/Beast Hunting Hero who was arrested but the women he killed were indeed mass murdering beasts. Or the MRA programmer who is supposed to the bad guy because he wears a fedora and is mad at his female coworker, but thanks to the way Beast works she is indeed responsible for his creation and why he never did get that promotion.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Does Beast even have an overarching conflict outside of being psuedo-victimized by heroes?

NutritiousSnack
Jul 12, 2011


Alien Rope Burn posted:

Does Beast even have an overarching conflict outside of being psuedo-victimized by heroes?

CROSS-OVER POTENTIAL

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012






If you have a particularly adept GM you could maybe do something with another supernatural being inflicting something undesirable on the local hive. But as written? No, the only real conflict is the relationship between Beasts and Heroes.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Alien Rope Burn posted:

Does Beast even have an overarching conflict outside of being psuedo-victimized by heroes?

And that's barely even a conflict given the Beasts hold are the cards and are unequivocally said to be right. They literally set up strawmen for themselves to knock down.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012






Night10194 posted:

And that's barely even a conflict given the Beasts hold are the cards and are unequivocally said to be right. They literally set up strawmen for themselves to knock down.

Yes this is also true, the only real strength that Heroes have is the ability to inflict anathema. And that requires a beast to hang around middle Satiety for extended periods of time. Which is.. well.. kind of a dumb thing to do, unless you're actually trying to play along with the "Oh I'm a nice beast who doesn't actually spend satiety unless they absolutely have to to keep my feeding to a minimum" thing. Which is still dumb because if a hero hits you with an anathema you're probably going to have to go on a murder spree to get rid of it.


That's the real conflict represented by heroes. If they can catch you at Sated they can absolutely gently caress with your day and set up a situation which involves the creation of a bunch more heroes, but a wet behind the ears Hero has basically no supernatural ability save anathema.

Monathin
Sep 1, 2011


oriongates posted:

Has there ever been a white wolf RPG in which the snide little "this is me smugly talking about X other being in the WOD" ever been any good?

The Stereotypes in Exalted are fine because they fit the lore as part of a multi-millennial smear campaign by the Dragon-Blooded on behalf of the Solars. In the WoD line? Yeah, Hunters are the ones that I think work the best.

Keiya
Aug 22, 2009

Come with me if you want to not die.


Beasts actually kinda remind me of Exalted in the new way they come about. Except they're poo poo.

Given how common the word 'anathema' is in Exalted and how rarely it's used elsewhere I actually wonder if that wasn't intentional and they were trying to set up the 'WoD is the far future of Creation' thing again and just hosed it up harder than you'd normally expect.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.





oriongates posted:

Has there ever been a white wolf RPG in which the snide little "this is me smugly talking about X other being in the WOD" ever been any good?
I liked the Tzimisce clan book one, because in one of them the elder bitching about all the other vampire ethnicities got so mad he vomited blood.

There was also the usual metaplot drafting of notes and in one there was the smugass ancilla of the modern days addressing his old school Dracula sire. He was like "to which did you look, dear sire, in the days of old - to heaven, or to hell?" and the old school guy was like "These modern draculas are better than you, childe. You best train because next time I see you I'm taking back my blood. In answer to your question, I looked to Hell."

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



The promethean one-liners strike me as particularly tone deaf to that game line. Not surprising, I suppose, given that Beasts feel like they're ideal antagonists for Prometheans to come into conflict with.

I also get the feeling all one-liners about Hunters would have been "lol hunters."

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MJ12
Apr 8, 2009



Kurieg posted:

I should point out that Beasts hate Demons for some reason. They just do, it isn't adequately explained but Beasts hate Demons.

Clearly it's because the God-Machine persecutes the Beasts and they get crushed under the heels of The Man, man.

I'm not entirely facetious here-if Beast was originally some metaphor for minorities, it sort of makes sense given that the God-Machine is basically an explicit metaphor for the State. Like, it straight-out says that the God-Machine is this inhuman, massive entity made out of infrastructure which acts on the small scale not via its own powers, but via dispatching agents. It's baaaaasically God as a dream of good government.

Which makes the demons basically ex-cops who got stuck in jail, and the Beasts the minorities who now loathe and torment the ex-cops.

Except it's generally not a bad idea to make demons mad because they are very good at what they do, and what they do is terrorism.

So maybe it's because demons, despite not being creatures of primordial terror, being better at actually being relevant and concerning fears to mankind? Maybe it's jealousy?

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