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Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



Halloween Jack posted:

I'm quite fond of that setting/rule variant in the Requiem Chronicler's Guide wherein the Beast is replaced with the Other, and Humanity 0 vampires aren't mindless beasts but emotionless "snowmen."

The Other is definitely interesting, and to me it reads a lot more as 'alien intelligence co-riding your unlife' than the Beast does.

(The Other is also relatively safe to have around as a neighbor. When a vampire falls to the Other, the main thing is they're focused purely on survival and efficiency. They kill their victims each time, because it's more efficient to just fully fill up on blood and also they don't give a poo poo about murder any more, but they aren't going to gently caress with other vampires unless threatened...right up until they become potent enough that they need to feed on vampire blood exclusively. At that point the Other becomes monofocused on hunting other vampires and is now the biggest problem its neighbors have ever had.)

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IshmaelZarkov
Jun 20, 2013



I've always run the Beast as the vamps actual real brain/personality, with the tattered remains of the original persons ego floating on top, pretending to be somewhat human for just one more night.

But, that being said, I really liked the film Daybreakers, so my right to have opinions on vampires has potentially been voided.

8one6
May 20, 2012

When in doubt, err on the side of Awesome!



Night10194 posted:

Much of the point of early Warhammer was to avoid just that!

This is my "favorite" part of talking about Warhams with one of my friends (especially during the Chapterhouse lawsuit), how you can trace back pretty much every part of Warhammer Fantasy back to "We were selling/publishing/whatever D&D and CoC in the UK for TSR/Chaosium but we don't like actually paying them for it" and very lightly filing the serial numbers off of it. (and then 40k/Rogue Trader is almost literally "Warhammer Fantasy, but in space!")

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


8one6 posted:

This is my "favorite" part of talking about Warhams with one of my friends (especially during the Chapterhouse lawsuit), how you can trace back pretty much every part of Warhammer Fantasy back to "We were selling/publishing/whatever D&D and CoC in the UK for TSR/Chaosium but we don't like actually paying them for it" and very lightly filing the serial numbers off of it. (and then 40k/Rogue Trader is almost literally "Warhammer Fantasy, but in space!")

Apparently almost all of the Early Modern flavor comes from the original WHFRP, as well. Because 1e thought it would be cooler to have lots of fancy hats and big cities and stuff while the very early wargame had the Empire being almost wholly medieval to be more D&Dish.

The other interesting thing is how open the original 1e rulebook is about the sci-fi angle, telling you all about the Slaan coming in starships and terraforming the planet until the walls of their warp network got breached and Chaos flowed into the world. The Gods of the humans used to explicitly be the 'good' manifestations of Chaos while the 4 Chaos Gods were just assholes from day 1. Also the entry on Sigmar in 1e is 'He's a minor regional God the Empire likes' and he wasn't even important enough to grant his own unique spell list, unlike Myrmidia, Shallya, or Ulric. It's wild to read 1e.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Night10194 posted:

The thing is, they don't reject the adolescent power fantasies in the slightest. They just say they do.

Yeah, I just think they didn't really think outside of the standard RPG design standards of the time. I think having the ridiculous power characters like Methuselahs or Divis Mal is basically part of the "there's always a bigger fish" ethos so the player characters can never be on top of the power ladder, and otherwise giving the GM tools to glare at PCs and say "YOU FAIL" whenever they step out of "line".

It wasn't an elegant solution.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Alien Rope Burn posted:

Yeah, I just think they didn't really think outside of the standard RPG design standards of the time. I think having the ridiculous power characters like Methuselahs or Divis Mal is basically part of the "there's always a bigger fish" ethos so the player characters can never be on top of the power ladder, and otherwise giving the GM tools to glare at PCs and say "YOU FAIL" whenever they step out of "line".

It wasn't an elegant solution.

I suspect that's more a function of GM As Auteur, because one thing I notice in their work is a huge amount of power being given to the GM. The GM always has a lot of control over proceedings in a traditional RPG structure, but between the messy rules, the explicit 'the GM decides how this works' moments, and the constant insistence the GM is telling a Big Important Story and making art? I think making sure the GM always has a stick to beat the PCs with is part of giving the GM more ways to keep things on rails.

Also I think the writers just really thought Mal was super cool, much like many of their super NPCs. Same for most of the other NPCs; Corbin is clearly meant to be a cool, sympathetic jerk (and really, in the hands of a decent player he'd make a good PC so fair enough).

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


I agree, though there isn't necessarily a line dividing the two notions. Ultimately it's hard to puzzle out without picking the brains of the designers, and Aberrant is a long-table committee of contributors.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Was also something I noticed about Hunter, that it had like 15 authors. No wonder it was so drat confused.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Alien Rope Burn posted:

Yeah, I just think they didn't really think outside of the standard RPG design standards of the time. I think having the ridiculous power characters like Methuselahs or Divis Mal is basically part of the "there's always a bigger fish" ethos so the player characters can never be on top of the power ladder, and otherwise giving the GM tools to glare at PCs and say "YOU FAIL" whenever they step out of "line".

It wasn't an elegant solution.
Another problem is that even when you are able (even expected!) to take on these NPCs and defeat them, there's little guidance for how to handle such superheroic battles, and often the ruleset just doesn't accommodate it. This is particularly glaring problem for White Wolf when the End Times roll around.

Evil Mastermind went into detail about how this problem fucks up Deadlands--the devs have no idea how to make the PCs the center of conflict when actual war breaks out. The PCs have to participate in pitched battles and sieges that are just endless slogs of combat rounds.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


I suppose this is one of several reasons I'm not very fond of God Man games. It's partly that it's really hard to make systems that fit epic superheroic conflict and they have to be very careful to avoid devolving into this sort of thing. Part of the reason I like WHFRP so much is that Karl Franz isn't a superhuman, he's just a dude who rolled decent on Fel and Int and who has a bunch of careers. Same as your social PC. It makes it easier to avoid untouchable people when most people you deal with are just people. In general that line is very good about keeping things about the PCs.

That said I do really like having Double Cross around to really indulge in crazy enormous superheroics because I still enjoy superheroes.

RedSnapper
Nov 22, 2016


Night10194 posted:

Also the entry on Sigmar in 1e is 'He's a minor regional God the Empire likes' and he wasn't even important enough to grant his own unique spell list, unlike Myrmidia, Shallya, or Ulric. It's wild to read 1e.

TBF that's exactly what he is to non-Imperials. 1e also has just Khorne, Nurgle and Malal as Chaos Gods, the Gods of Order, for some reason, an alingment system and (sadly) less emphasis on firearms.

Sigmar finally got his spell list in an add-on. I can't remember the name of the book, but I do remember it had a big writeup on the Chaos Gods (adding Tzeentch and Slaanesh and excluding Malal), the Imperial calendar and, gods help us, an armor destruction mechanic.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


I like how when you read the author's notes in 2e one of the first things he says is 'I had to address the invincible naked dwarf'.

E: I also wish more RPGs would do detailed author's notes. Death of the author and all but I really like to know some of the author's own intentions and logic behind their mechanical and narrative choices. It's fun and helpful.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Aug 20, 2019

RedSnapper
Nov 22, 2016


Night10194 posted:

I like how when you read the author's notes in 2e one of the first things he says is 'I had to address the invincible naked dwarf'.


Hey, the naked dwarf syndrome was the only thing that allowed my character to survive a two-handed axe to the back of the head, after getting surprised by a black orc!

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


The intent was less to make the dwarf less tough and more to make armor more useful so that a plate armored dwarf would be a tank but a naked dwarf wouldn't be tougher than a plate armored human. So the dwarf is just as tough, just they're even tougher in armor since armor goes up to AV 5.

I don't know why but 'Defense can actually work out' is one of my criteria for combat in games I enjoy. I think it's just that we had a period in design where rocket tag was so, so common and rocket tag is pretty annoying to run. Especially when games want you to put a lot of time and effort into making a character who dies with one bad die roll.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



RPG books usually have a fair number of authors - there's a lot to write and they cover a wide array of topics, so a writer who can handle, say, a city writeup might not be able to write a list of talents or a combat rules example.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Yeah, but 15 is a few more than usual. It's usually like 2-3 primary authors and then a bunch of contributors/rules assistance/playtesting directors, while Hunter had 15 primary authors and more contributors.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Eclipse Phase: Second Edition



Minor Notes

So, in between reviewing EP2, I've been trying to set up a game of it, and it's been driving us crazy because of how poorly organized the book is. As well as stuff like... on page 217, in the gear chapter, there's the Self-Healing mod for armor that repairs 1d10 points of armor value per hour.

You know what's not in the game anywhere I've been able to find? Any mechanics for armor taking damage from attacks that reduces its armor value. I'll be honest, it might not have been a bad idea that armor can only absorb X damage and then it starts coming apart, just so sufficient volume of small attacks could still eventually wear down large targets, thus making it less hard to accidentally stat enemies that the PC's couldn't hurt, or PC's that cannot be hurt by the enemy. But it's not in there anyway.

The Part After Space Brain Magic: Miscellaneous Stuff

This is the section that deals with psychosurgery and resleeving, we've mostly covered it as asides during the early parts when it was relevant, but the Cliff's Notes is as follows: Resleeving is now more effortless than before, thus making resleeving checks almost purely a formality unless you get unlucky on rolls and it saddles you with enough Stress damage to give you an instant mental illness, which you'll need three months of chilling at home to cure. Which counts for all mental illnesses, by the way.

The rules related to morph acquisition and modding are also here(but not the actual mods, oh no, they're another 30 or so pages ahead), about 240 pages after when you need to reference them during chargen.

There's stuff on forks, at last, including the fact that you can perfectly copy a human mind and personality in about a minute. Hilariously, though, despite it earlier being described how easy it was to prune out the "bad parts" of disabilities like autism and ADHD, thus giving rise to easy peasy suffering-free "neurodivergence," here psychosurgery is instead described as messy and imprecise. The comedy answer that EP2 hits is that both are wrong, in a way. Psychosurgery isn't a danger-free thing you could roll out across an entire population with zero mishaps... but transhumanity's understanding of it is still precise enough that 4 out of 5 edits go off without a hitch, no side-effects or failures, which isn't how I'd expect based on "messy and imprecise."

The loving inconsistency in the writing is just aggressive.

Now, check this poo poo out.

quote:

The changes incurred by psychosurgery are nebulous and difficult to pin down with game mechanics. Alterations to a character’s personality and mind state are often better handled as roleplaying.

Three pages later, there's a chart laying out all of the psychosurgery procedures as exact mechanics. Oh, yes, so nebulous and hard to pin down that we did it for you. Assholes.

After we're done with the writers being idiots in that way, we get back to why autonomists and anarchists in this setting are morons. The only way to perfectly ID someone is via their ego, i.e. their mind, rather than the body they're in. All of the inner-system states out to and including Titan, of course, keep records to help identify who you are. Anarchists do not, they refuse to keep data on individuals, letting people "control their own data." This means that applying any sort of definitive justice or legal consequences among the anarchists, aside from randomized mob lynchings, is going to be literally impossible since you have no way of perfectly identifying someone as who they are.

Then there's an actually useful and not-garbage section which is on in-system travel, but distinct from the space travel section we had... 190 pages ago. Because there's absolutely a good reason to separate the specific travelling through space from the actual arriving at habitats. I bet. Probably. It's honestly a good section, just badly placed, including a good bit on how to get into habs without permission, for instance. Then right after it there's another section on space travel. And then two sections after that is another part on forcing entry to a hab, right after the part on space combat that they refuse to provide any rules for because they don't feel it's possible to make any good ones.

Maybe that's why the Jovians seem so powerless in play, there's no actual way in the setting's fundamental rules and physics for them to use their superior space fleets.


not sure what these HSD rejects are doing in the book

There is yet another section on rep. In fact get used to the "yet another" line popping up in this review because it feels like everything that is anything is split into at least two chapters and often has important rules or footnotes present elsewhere(and not replicated in the most central section). Mostly the only funny thing here we haven't encountered so far is the types of rep. There's basically a famous rep, an anarchist rep, a science rep, a capitalist rep, an exoplanet rep, a firewall rep and... a criminal rep. Yes, there's a Crime Facebook where you have a popularity rating. You'd figure this would be like the worst thing for any loving criminal to have. "Better put up this public profile with how cool a criminal I am so other criminals can easily identify me and how trustworthy I am. Oh look there's a friend invite from Oversight McNotACop, sounds legit. Oh no, who could have foreseen that Oversight figured me out!" Like it makes sense for players to be able to have lower-case rep with criminals, but not for them to have upper-case formal Rep with a tracking score and footnotes.

Gear

The gear rules are... badly edited? That's about all I can say. You've got about all the gear you expect. Less options for modding morphs than EP1, much vaguer descriptions of what can be synthetic and what can be biomorph stuff. Mostly it's just by implications since it's rarely explicitly spelled out. There are rules for making your GM cry since you can buy combat robots and staff them with ALI's(or your own forks) each of which are fully-statted combatants rather than being abstracted in some way to not make them a huge pain in the rear end to deal with. And I do mean literally fully statted, there are no shortcuts to only have their derived values or anything since you might have about a half-dozen different ALI's you could slap into a given robot.

They also leave out stats for stuff that actually matters, like the Dwarf, basically a quadripedal piece of earthmoving equipment that a creative player would absolutely use as a piece of combat equipment in a pinch since it's a massive lump of health which has all sorts of bludgeoning, cutting, burning and dissolving equipment for building purposes(or in this case for clobberin' purposes)... but no weapons stats for any of it.

quote:

Dwarfs are quadrupedal walkers, equipped with massive modular industrial tools like boring drills, shovels, hydraulic jacks, jackhammers, scooping arms, acid sprays, and so on.

With a cyberbrain for piloting, they'd be the prime combat synthmorph chassis. They aren't even Rare to buy, just Major, and a lot of planetbound locations would have them accessible... see, this poo poo. They expect us to improvise with what's lying around, then don't give us any loving rules for it. Goddamn.

Also remember how they said they weren't going to stat out space combat? They still stat out space combat vessels in this chapter, which gets even funnier because they emphasize the high-realism space combat in the former chapter, with extreme-range missile and railgun engagements being the norm. You know, some hard sci-fi stuff out of an Alastair Reynolds novel. Then in the spacecraft section of course there are also military fighters right out of Star Wars except for lacking deflector shields, even though in combat-as-described they wouldn't really have much of a purpose.

There are also, weirdly enough, stats for scum barges. Like when are the players going to line up and shoot one of those to death? These stats are all stupid, anyway, there are no stats for the larger-than-man-size weaponry that stuff like a Destroyer would likely carry, and thus no actual rules for craft-vs-craft combat. The only stuff their durability is actually useful for would be human-vs-craft combat, and no human weapons can really do relevant damage against them due to their massive armor and health pools. So the stats are useless, they're loving pointless.

gently caress you, Eclipse Phase 2.

Next Up: The GM Chapters, I Look Forward To This Fresh Bullshit

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Wait, so, can you just shoot a barge with an assault rifle enough and it will die? Since there are no vehicle weapons or anything but the barge has HP and other stats listed?

I see they get their ARs from the same people who supply EDF Rangers.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Night10194 posted:

Wait, so, can you just shoot a barge with an assault rifle enough and it will die? Since there are no vehicle weapons or anything but the barge has HP and other stats listed?

I see they get their ARs from the same people who supply EDF Rangers.

Well.

A Scum Barge has 30 armor against Kinetic attacks.

Your basic AR does 2d10+2, clearly not enough to beat the armor. However, you could make it a Railgun, thus halving armor and meaning you could plink away until it breaks. Or you could use full-auto fire, adding 2d10 damage to each salvo. Or both. This isn't counting Superior and Critical successes that increase damage. If you're good enough you can also make armor-halving called shots(no word on how these interact with armor-piercing ammo, but I'd assume they halve twice, thus quartering), though the GM can GM fiat that the target has no weaknesses, but with a scum barge which isn't even really intentionally armored against attack, this would be a hard argument to make.

But if we just assume an AR Railgun with full-auto fire. We'd be doing 4d10+2-15 damage every attack. We'd be averaging 10 or 11 damage per attack. 1500 damage would cripple the Scum Barge(at 0 DUR, synthmorphs stop functioning), and 3000 would destroy it. Presumably at 1500 everything but lifesupport would be on the fritz and at 3000 the hull would physically come apart.

This means we'd need to attack 150 to 300 times barring any exceptionally lucky or unlucky attacks. Say our average party is 4 guys without any assisting robots or combat machines, we'd need 75 combat rounds(and 3000 shots, but since we're using normal ammo, which the game just sort of assumes we've always got enough of, all that means is the occasional break to reload, railguns also have double the ammo capacity of base weapons) to do it. Just shy of 90 rounds if we include reloading and account for a few below-average damage rounds.

How long is this in actual time, though?

No actual clue since the game doesn't at any point try to equate rounds to objective time(a fair enough decision, admittedly, I can't really fault them for that).

But if anyone here is familiar with firearms, how long would it take you to empty 13 magazines at full auto with no concern for accuracy(because your target is the proverbial side of a barn except even bigger)?

(As an aside while looking at the index for any clear definition of how long a Round was, I noticed some cheat sheets in the back including, for instance, all Mesh/Hacking actions... but nothing for physical combat, which is spread out across even more of the book than the mesh/hacking stuff is.)

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

PurpleXVI posted:

Well.

A Scum Barge has 30 armor against Kinetic attacks.

Your basic AR does 2d10+2, clearly not enough to beat the armor. However, you could make it a Railgun, thus halving armor and meaning you could plink away until it breaks. Or you could use full-auto fire, adding 2d10 damage to each salvo. Or both. This isn't counting Superior and Critical successes that increase damage. If you're good enough you can also make armor-halving called shots(no word on how these interact with armor-piercing ammo, but I'd assume they halve twice, thus quartering), though the GM can GM fiat that the target has no weaknesses, but with a scum barge which isn't even really intentionally armored against attack, this would be a hard argument to make.

But if we just assume an AR Railgun with full-auto fire. We'd be doing 4d10+2-15 damage every attack. We'd be averaging 10 or 11 damage per attack. 1500 damage would cripple the Scum Barge(at 0 DUR, synthmorphs stop functioning), and 3000 would destroy it. Presumably at 1500 everything but lifesupport would be on the fritz and at 3000 the hull would physically come apart.

This means we'd need to attack 150 to 300 times barring any exceptionally lucky or unlucky attacks. Say our average party is 4 guys without any assisting robots or combat machines, we'd need 75 combat rounds(and 3000 shots, but since we're using normal ammo, which the game just sort of assumes we've always got enough of, all that means is the occasional break to reload, railguns also have double the ammo capacity of base weapons) to do it. Just shy of 90 rounds if we include reloading and account for a few below-average damage rounds.

How long is this in actual time, though?

No actual clue since the game doesn't at any point try to equate rounds to objective time(a fair enough decision, admittedly, I can't really fault them for that).

But if anyone here is familiar with firearms, how long would it take you to empty 13 magazines at full auto with no concern for accuracy(because your target is the proverbial side of a barn except even bigger)?

(As an aside while looking at the index for any clear definition of how long a Round was, I noticed some cheat sheets in the back including, for instance, all Mesh/Hacking actions... but nothing for physical combat, which is spread out across even more of the book than the mesh/hacking stuff is.)

At 3000 bullets across 4 people, that's 750 bullets per person. An AR-15 can fire 800 rounds per minute at full auto, so just under a minute depending on reload times. I've seen people reload in less than a second, so that's entirely possible

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Kaza42 posted:

At 3000 bullets across 4 people, that's 750 bullets per person. An AR-15 can fire 800 rounds per minute at full auto, so just under a minute depending on reload times. I've seen people reload in less than a second, so that's entirely possible

So if we round up, that's about a minute to saw a loving spaceship shantytown carrying up to 25000 humans in half with assault rifles. :v:

I loving love this, what a loving Murphy to dig out of EP2.

EthanSteele
Nov 18, 2007

I can hear you


Well, big Railgun assault rifles and why are you not doing it with 750 people and doing it in a single shot each.

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007

IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!




Full auto clip emptying is way cooler than myriad single shots though.


I kinda want to see how the film Predator would break down and splatter in the combat system.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





EthanSteele posted:

Well, big Railgun assault rifles and why are you not doing it with 750 people and doing it in a single shot each.
Because doing it with fewer guns and more bullets is more libertyer and means we get more libertarian rep.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


What boggles me is why even give a Scum Barge HP and Armor value? Any sane GM is going to nix the '4 guys empty bullets at this in EVA suits until it explodes or whatever' plan because it's a city-barge and its survival or not is likely to be an adventure objective. So why even give it HP or combat stats?

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





Night10194 posted:

What boggles me is why even give a Scum Barge HP and Armor value? Any sane GM is going to nix the '4 guys empty bullets at this in EVA suits until it explodes or whatever' plan because it's a city-barge and its survival or not is likely to be an adventure objective. So why even give it HP or combat stats?
Are you telling me there is a problem I cannot overcome with traditional kinetic weapons fire, friend? That sounds unlibertythink to me. Perhaps we just need to Add More Gun.

EthanSteele
Nov 18, 2007

I can hear you


By popular demand posted:

Full auto clip emptying is way cooler than myriad single shots though.

I feel it flips from full auto being cooler once its enough guys firing one bullet at the same time.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


EthanSteele posted:

I feel it flips from full auto being cooler once its enough guys firing one bullet at the same time.

Actually, if you think about it, I don't believe the game ever differentiates interior and exterior armor... so it wouldn't take much of a gunfight on the decks of the ship for it to be crippled or destroyed, even if it's city-sized.

StratGoatCom
Aug 6, 2019

Our security is guaranteed by being able to melt the eyeballs of any other forum's denizens at 15 minutes notice





PurpleXVI posted:


Now, check this poo poo out.


Three pages later, there's a chart laying out all of the psychosurgery procedures as exact mechanics. Oh, yes, so nebulous and hard to pin down that we did it for you. Assholes.

After we're done with the writers being idiots in that way, we get back to why autonomists and anarchists in this setting are morons. The only way to perfectly ID someone is via their ego, i.e. their mind, rather than the body they're in. All of the inner-system states out to and including Titan, of course, keep records to help identify who you are. Anarchists do not, they refuse to keep data on individuals, letting people "control their own data." This means that applying any sort of definitive justice or legal consequences among the anarchists, aside from randomized mob lynchings, is going to be literally impossible since you have no way of perfectly identifying someone as who they are.


I can understand this as a holdover from when they were underground from pre-Fall goverments - OPSEC and all that jazz - but it strikes me as something of a problematic institutional relic nowadays; how the poo poo are you gonna get rid of Oversight trying to COINTELPRO you without being able to track egos? And that's before when you need to figure out who might have been exposed to some Exsurgent incident before they spread pestilence across half the AA.

PurpleXVI posted:


Gear

The gear rules are... badly edited? That's about all I can say. You've got about all the gear you expect. Less options for modding morphs than EP1, much vaguer descriptions of what can be synthetic and what can be biomorph stuff. Mostly it's just by implications since it's rarely explicitly spelled out. There are rules for making your GM cry since you can buy combat robots and staff them with ALI's(or your own forks) each of which are fully-statted combatants rather than being abstracted in some way to not make them a huge pain in the rear end to deal with. And I do mean literally fully statted, there are no shortcuts to only have their derived values or anything since you might have about a half-dozen different ALI's you could slap into a given robot.

They also leave out stats for stuff that actually matters, like the Dwarf, basically a quadripedal piece of earthmoving equipment that a creative player would absolutely use as a piece of combat equipment in a pinch since it's a massive lump of health which has all sorts of bludgeoning, cutting, burning and dissolving equipment for building purposes(or in this case for clobberin' purposes)... but no weapons stats for any of it.


With a cyberbrain for piloting, they'd be the prime combat synthmorph chassis. They aren't even Rare to buy, just Major, and a lot of planetbound locations would have them accessible... see, this poo poo. They expect us to improvise with what's lying around, then don't give us any loving rules for it. Goddamn.

This issue was apparent since the morph section - probably the best part of Transhuman from a player's perspective was this lovely beast:


Got your additional minerals right here

The Daitya, nearly a tonne of future Bobcat goodness, with a statline just waiting to be turned into a :killdozer::

The most useful official morph in the entire 1st ed game, likely posted:

Enhancements: Access Jacks, Basic Mesh Inserts, Cortical Stack, Cyberbrain, Grip Pads, Hardened Skeleton, Industrial Armor, Mnemonic Augmentation, Pneumatic Limbs (Arms), Puppet Sock, Radar, 4 Weapon Mounts (Disassembly Tools; 2 fixed, 2 articulated), Wrist-Mounted Tools
Mobility System: Walker (8/40)
Aptitude Maximum: 30 (40 SOM)
Durability: 100 (includes Hardened Skeleton bonus)
Wound Threshold: 20
Advantages: +15 SOM (includes Hardened Skeleton bonus), +5 to one other aptitude of the player’s choice, Armor 10/10 (20/20 with Industrial Armor)
Notes: Large Size trait, melee attacks with the large-size frame or disassembly tools inflict 3d10 + (SOM ÷ 10) DV at AP −5
CP Cost: 80
Credit Cost: Expensive (minimum 80,000+)

Most are anthropoid, so if you want to, you can give it a MG to use like a rifle, and sling a seeker on the back like an XCOM 2 MEC, or just load heavy guns unto the hardpoints, you can get one anywhere, so no matter what the problem is, chances are a heavy combat morph is available, and if you get the time you can load on some heavy armor and uprate the cyberbrain to be capable of neurachem and wired reflexes emulation, turning it into an absolute monster - to quote:

Sava posted:

Sava: You know what you won’t find on an average O’Neill cylinder or mining colony? A tank. But you will find a daitya, and for certain ops, this can be the next best thing—and they’re much easier to explain away. Great if you have a day or two to fab up some weapons and armor up the frame.
The difference between a Daitya and a Dwarf is whether the cyberbrain is ego-rated, I think.

What is more useful to the player characters? Some generic :roboluv: or this beast? Now, which got in? The pleasure pod only warrants mention as a subvarient of the work pod, not stats!


PurpleXVI posted:



The loving inconsistency in the writing is just aggressive.

Again, I am strongly suspecting some kind of major shitstorm went down within Posthuman as Jack Graham left, and that major parts ended up reedited in a hurry as a result, at least. He is already known to have taken some writing with him...

StratGoatCom fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Aug 20, 2019

LatwPIAT
Jun 6, 2011

Do I need a title?

Night10194 posted:

What boggles me is why even give a Scum Barge HP and Armor value? Any sane GM is going to nix the '4 guys empty bullets at this in EVA suits until it explodes or whatever' plan because it's a city-barge and its survival or not is likely to be an adventure objective. So why even give it HP or combat stats?

The armour can be useful for things like "I want to hit something on the far side of this wall", determine when your firefight starts tearing holes in the spacecraft, and determine how many explosives you're going to need to breach a Scum Barge outer wall.

The decision to not give spacecraft any combat-relevant attributes in 1e was also, while sensible, somewhat controversial because a lot of fans really wanted to have spacecraft they could play with. There was enough demand for letting you player characters have spacecraft in 1e that a Merit for owning a spacecraft was added to the Player's Handbook, and once you have a spacecraft in your hands, the lack of any rules beyond "GM's decision" became sorely apparent.

Me, I just converted the entire game to GURPS and used GURPS: Spaceships. :shobon:

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



PurpleXVI posted:

Actually, if you think about it, I don't believe the game ever differentiates interior and exterior armor... so it wouldn't take much of a gunfight on the decks of the ship for it to be crippled or destroyed, even if it's city-sized.

That's not actually unrealistic. If your guns are powerful enough you desperately do not want to fire them inside a spaceship.

Spaceships have a shitload of points of failure.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Space is an immensely unforgiving place. Which is why we should have random riots and demolition derbies and everyone should have access to powerful firearms that can punch the hull as their god science given right.

StratGoatCom
Aug 6, 2019

Our security is guaranteed by being able to melt the eyeballs of any other forum's denizens at 15 minutes notice





It's worth noting that the ship hull rules will be obsolete in A While anyway, as a space combat mini-sourcebook is in the early planning stages:
https://eclipsephase.com/project-status

Though if my suspicion of internal problems at Posthuman is accurate, I'd not count on them coming out; as if you didn't need any more reasons to avoid the next EP KS.

Gun Jam
Apr 11, 2015


PurpleXVI posted:

Well.

A Scum Barge has 30 armor against Kinetic attacks.

Your basic AR does 2d10+2, clearly not enough to beat the armor. ... Or you could use full-auto fire, adding 2d10 damage to each salvo.
???
"Our guns can't even scratch this thing!"
"Shoot faster, then! it will make your bullets more powerful!"

e: Clearly, this section on dakka was written by an ork

Gun Jam fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Aug 20, 2019

LatwPIAT
Jun 6, 2011

Do I need a title?

Gun Jam posted:

???
"Our guns can't even scratch this thing!"
"Shoot faster, then! it will make your bullets more powerful!"

e: Clearly, this section on dakka was written by an ork

It represents the additional damage from more than one bullet hitting the target, and/or the effects of multiple hits weakening the armour so the last bullet penetrates deeper and therefore has the potential to do damage.

EthanSteele
Nov 18, 2007

I can hear you


Yeah, more bullets hitting you = more damage doesn't seem worthy of ridicule. At least it isn't that weird edition of Shadowrun where you rolled damage individually for each bullet that hit the target.

Ithle01
May 28, 2013


EthanSteele posted:

Yeah, more bullets hitting you = more damage doesn't seem worthy of ridicule. At least it isn't that weird edition of Shadowrun where you rolled damage individually for each bullet that hit the target.

I kind of feel like Shadowrun sort of knows its audience and the obtuse gun porn rules are part of the attraction for them even if its horrible to play for everyone else. EP2 having the drone swarm with machine guns feels like the same thing to me, which is funny because the latest edition of SR also has that too! And it's also awful there.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





EthanSteele posted:

Yeah, more bullets hitting you = more damage doesn't seem worthy of ridicule. At least it isn't that weird edition of Shadowrun where you rolled damage individually for each bullet that hit the target.
I think the oddity here is that if you can ignore a few rounds completely, a damage boost from firing full auto does not necessarily make sense against an armored target, such as an enormous spaceship. This is not a problem new to EP, though.

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



Night10194 posted:

What boggles me is why even give a Scum Barge HP and Armor value? Any sane GM is going to nix the '4 guys empty bullets at this in EVA suits until it explodes or whatever' plan because it's a city-barge and its survival or not is likely to be an adventure objective. So why even give it HP or combat stats?
Because it's not Call of Cthulhu if you deny your players the chance to at least once be a firing squad of tommygunners.

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Spector29
Nov 28, 2016



Honestly, all of this is making me feel bad for wanting to play EP 2. Not that it isn't bad, or poorly edited, but I really like the super sci-fi transhumanism stuff.

Are there any good versions of this kind of thing that I should be looking at, or can I get by with pointing out the AA and Anarchists are lunatics and reigning in a few character exploits? Gatecrashing has really got my players excited, and I don't have the heart to tell them a game I thought was alright was actually trash garbage.

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