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Daeren
Aug 17, 2009

YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED


unseenlibrarian posted:

The NWOD Changeling game I've always wanted to play in/run has basically been along the lines of that 'famous missing people' entry for Banestorm. A bunch of Lost who were famous for vanishing mysteriously. D.B. Cooper, Amelia Earhart, Ambrose Bierce, Glen Miller, etc, etc. who've now made it back to earth and have to adapt to life in some rural freehold to avoid everyone noticing them.

All, weirdly enough, have the exact same Keeper, who had a bit of a fixation, let's say.

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SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

Horned Rat-Sempai Noticed Me!


I started to read through Elminster's Ecology, and discovered the one big blocker to writing it up: I could not care about it. So I'm just going to move on ahead to the next Planescape supplement, the Planes of Chaos.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


Did I miss the post where we all talked about how amazing that Planescape art is? It's probably the best art in the thread in ages... reminds me a bit of Brian Froud's Goblins stuff. Each one has tons of personality.

Tasoth
Dec 12, 2011


I've been drawing monsters for the past five months as a personal project. I could not pass up drawing a hordeling.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


Fallen Rib

Count Chocula posted:

Did I miss the post where we all talked about how amazing that Planescape art is? It's probably the best art in the thread in ages... reminds me a bit of Brian Froud's Goblins stuff. Each one has tons of personality.

TSR was basically super lucky to be able to hire Tony DiTierlizzi back before he became an extremely successful and famous children's book creator way out of pretty much any RPG publisher's league.

Daeren
Aug 17, 2009

YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED


Tasoth posted:

I've been drawing monsters for the past five months as a personal project. I could not pass up drawing a hordeling.



That Trogdor arm with a bowie knife is good poo poo.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Kai Tave posted:

TSR was basically super lucky to be able to hire Tony DiTierlizzi back before he became an extremely successful and famous children's book creator way out of pretty much any RPG publisher's league.

I tell ya, a Planescape video game using either cel-shaded models or Vanillaware-quality sprites in that style would be amazing.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

Horned Rat-Sempai Noticed Me!


Kai Tave posted:

TSR was basically super lucky to be able to hire Tony DiTierlizzi back before he became an extremely successful and famous children's book creator way out of pretty much any RPG publisher's league.

I met Tony at last year's Gencon. I bought his artbook, and he drew a Slaad for me.

If he's there for this year, I'll see if he'll draw my custom Hordling.

unzealous
Mar 24, 2009

Die, Die, DIE!




This is section serves as a toolkit to make the big, terrible nasty monsters that likely serve as the cornerstone of a story. These are the terrible monsters of flesh and bone that have caused a rash of disappearances or the slick lawyer that covers the gaping holes of darkness in their ribcage with a suit you could never afford. They are the salesman with an offer too good to refuse, or the well in the forest that holds stagnant water and a dark history. Originally this section was in the World of Darkness Hunter book but it was incorporated into the core book when they realized how useful it was for any given campaign. It gives guidelines for monster creation as well as a list of Dread Powers which serve to give your creatures that unnatural edge that makes them so terrifying and unnatural.

quote:

“The obvious first step when creating a Horror is to decide what sort of beast you’re creating. Chances are you already have a starting point for this by the time you sit down to create a Horror. If you know your next story is going to be a tale of Faustian bargains and unholy sacrifices, for example, you probably know your Horror is going to be some sort of demon or warlock. Will it be a wrathful brute, hungry to share its rage with anyone it lures into its lair? Or will it be a subtle, deceitful thing, seducing the unwary into selling their souls? Folklore, mythology, and popular culture can all provide useful inspiration here.”

It continues with some additional advice specifically for a game of horror. Even if the horror in question is a killing machine it shouldn’t just be waiting around in the street for the player’s to come close enough to start an encounter. Instead try to focus more on the player’s figuring out what it is, or if that fails, at least a method of dealing with it. They are made similar to characters with the same attributes and skills and even merits afforded to them, though it recommends using a different theory for their design. Monsters should have strengths and weaknesses, they shouldn’t be average across the board because that’s not particularly engaging. What they’re good at they should be VERY good at and this is something that can only be really overcome by exploiting their weaknesses in one way or another. What makes them frightening is, even with this system, it’s very easy to make something strong and terrible simply because they have no need for things that would make a well rounded person. A beast who lurks in the shadows and preys on the weak or slow doesn’t need any social skills. Likewise a creature that relies on cunning and manipulation probably won’t need many combat skills, especially if they can simply disappear at a whim. Also they shouldn’t be something where the best, easiest solution is to simply charge it and beat it into submission because if they’re not used to Chronicles of Darkness that’s probably going to be their first move.

These terrible horrors will have Anchors like a normal person might, which is to say it will have a virtue and vice it can act upon to regain willpower. The difference is that these creatures aren’t human, they don’t have human values so their anchors can be vastly different from a human norm. A creature might have Silent as a Vice or Stalking as a Virtue. These things wouldn’t work for a person but they can be absolutely true for the creature and will also act as clues for the players as they learn more about it.

Potency is a rough descriptor of how tough you want the monster the be. It determines how many dots you have for their attributes and skills as well as the maximum amount you can put in an individual trait and roughly correlates to the ephemeral entity ranking system in terms of potential danger. Higher potency also increases the dread powers they have available as well as how many merit dots they have. It also contributes to their willpower pool which they can use to fuel their abilities. At rank one they might only be a threat if they can catch a character alone, but at higher ranks they can be threats to entire cities.



Dread Powers are where it gets fun, at least for the Storyteller. These are the abilities that can help define your creature and the threat it poses to the players or the community they live in. How it performs these and any limitations they have are largely defined by the ST based on the kind of game they’re running.

Beast Master - Can control lesser beasts and spend willpower to summon swarms of them

Chameleon Horror - They can blend into their surroundings like the predator or a cuttlefish

Discorporate - If the creature would be killed it simply dissolves into a swarm of smaller creatures, if one escapes it can completely reform given time

Eye Spy - The creature can surveil an area from a distance using some predetermined method like being able to hijack security cameras

Fire Elemental - The creature is made of fire, fire can’t hurt it and touching it is a bad, bad idea

Influence - They gain the ability to influence as an ephemeral being giving them control of a particular object or occurrence

Gremlin - Electric objects don’t function well around the creature and if they spend a willpower they can cause it to cease functioning entirely or take complete control over it

Home Ground - In a specific area related to the monster it is much, much tougher and more dangerous

Hunter’s Senses - Against a specific type of prey like campers, horny teens or people related to the person who killed it last, it gains a huge bonuses to track them down

Hypnotic Gaze - If they succeed in a roll against their prey they are considered to have made a perfect impression on them. This means it might take only a few minutes to make them completely change their mind on any given subject.

Immortal - They won’t die. If you kill them without their bane they’ll just come back shortly. Even if killed with their bane it’s only a matter of time before they come back. It might be years, or even centuries, but they always come back

Jump Scare - This lets the creature surprise the players. In game terms they can spend a willpower to resolve the shaken condition the player has and choose which action they fail because of it. The player still gains a beat for resolving the condition

Prodigious Leap - (Which I assume was Jump at some point in time given that this section is alphabetical) They can spend a willpower to leap massive distances, around 40 feet vertically and 60 feet in distance, if not further

Madness and Terror - Their touch or voice can inflict conditions on people, if they spend 3 willpower they can inflict the Broken, Fugue and Madness conditions which are very bad

Maze - By spending willpower they can completely change and rearrange the internal space of a building, even if these changes would violate physical laws. Corridors lead back where they came, stairwells with dead ends and the like

Miracle - The creature, or part of it, can perform acts that completely defy any sort of rational explanation. It can only perform these if asked to by a living human being, and doing so comes at a great, great cost

Mist Form - They can voluntarily turn into a gaseous form, like a thick miasma or a flock of crows

Natural Weapons - They have naturally dangerous aspects to them which have a damage rating and armor piercing rating equal to the dots put into the power. It tops out at 3 dots which is the same damage category as a semiautomatic rifle but has armor piercing on top

Numen - They have a Numen ability as an ephemeral being but spend willpower instead of essence

Know Soul - The creature can spend willpower to immediately know someone’s virtue, vice aspirations and integrity. If they spend more they can also learn about the subjects most recent failed breaking point

Reality Stutter - The creature can rapidly blink through reality letting them teleport short distances and giving them a bonus to defense

Regenerate - The creature can spend willpower to immediately heal from lethal damage based on how many points they invest in this

Snare - The creature can trap prey using sticking webs, skeletal hands bursting from the ground or any other method that seems fitting. They can grapple anyone in this area with a significant bonus

Skin Taker - The creature can assume the appearance of a person by taking the skin from their corpse

Soul Thief - The creature has a method by which they can steal the soul from someone. While losing your soul isn’t immediately fatal it will result in death over the period of a few, very unpleasant, weeks

Surprise Entrance - The creature can simply appear in any given scene, rising from a reflective surface or just bursting from a wall. Even if the players try to prevent this it only gets them a turn to act before the horror enters

Toxic - They exude some sort of poisonous or pestilential subject threatening to infect those it comes into contact with

Unbreakable - They are almost unstoppable. If the roll used to damage them isn’t a critical success it does only a single point of bashing damage.

Wall Climb - They can traverse walls and ceilings with ease at their full speed


Quick Horrors

When you just need something quick you can just use these guidelines to create a monster quickly. It has guidelines dice pools that mainly involve just figuring out what it’s good at, what it’s bad at, and having a middling number for everything else. It’s a really quick and easy way of making something on the fly to keep the game moving. An example from the book is a zombie horde, representing a mass of flesh eating monsters that, at best, you can beat back for a time until you find a place to hole up. It has a few things it's good at, like overwhelming and finding people, and a few things it's AWFUL at, like chasing down people or acting as a single zombie. It's only really a threat when it's a mass of undead flesh that can simply overpower people.


The last part of this section lists a few examples, not just singular monsters but ways you can use the system to emulate an unending horde, or a sinister locale. It should also be noted that not all these creatures are out to kill people. Some are just unsettling, or devious, mysterious. It has a version of the mothman, whose primary purpose is to sow chaos with cryptic advice. An old swimming hole that will give you what you want but never in the way you wanted. There’s the vengeance driven ghost of a woman, bound to her own dead body on a quest for vengeance, and the ghost of a hitchhiker who asks people to drive them around to places in their life before disappearing, usually. When it talks about the haunted home it even brings up the obvious solution (move out) and why it wouldn’t work, for a variety of reasons.

A lot of these monsters use the quick generation format for their stats and honestly it makes them much, much easier to read. You have a few things they’re good at, a few things they’re terrible at. Everything else will likely be between the two.

The only monster with an illustration, the spooky kid

Next Up: THE GOD MACHINE

I Am Just a Box
Jul 20, 2011
I belong here. I contain only inanimate objects. Nothing is amiss.



The Horror rules really fill what felt like a gaping hole in the first edition World of Darkness Rulebook. It was always presented as a world rife with remote inhuman colonies and bizarre Forteana beyond the scope of a book about vampires or werewolves (as the next update's Voice of the Angel, reprinted from the 1e rulebook, should reflect), but the WoD Rulebook never had even vague guidelines for a GM who wanted to put them in his game and wasn't prepared to just make everything up on the fly. The most it had was ghosts; not even spirits, specifically ghosts. And there's nothing wrong with a good ghost story, but it feels right to have a system for building mothmans in the CofD Rulebook. It wasn't complete before. And I love the restraint and simplicity of the abbreviated Horrors.

unzealous posted:

Next Up: THE GOD MACHINE

Do you have the God-Machine Chronicle stand-alone book to contribute to the next update? The Chronicles of Darkness Rulebook reprints nearly all the content of the previously published GMC book, making the latter all but obsolete, but the real shame is that to fit in wordcount, it cuts a lot of what was the GMC book's Introduction chapter, now titled Gears Within Gears. And that material was some of the best material in the book, giving a ground's-eye view of what all the different moving parts of the God-Machine were (and it has a bunch of moving parts to familiarize yourself with), what role they play, examples of how they manifest in the game universe, and optional hooks for games that dig deeper.

I mean, you can't cut flyman slamming the door in the pizza woman's face. He still has a half-page illustration in the book, even though the text that explained why there was a picture of a flyman is gone.

unzealous
Mar 24, 2009

Die, Die, DIE!


I Am Just a Box posted:

Do you have the God-Machine Chronicle stand-alone book to contribute to the next update? The Chronicles of Darkness Rulebook reprints nearly all the content of the previously published GMC book, making the latter all but obsolete, but the real shame is that to fit in wordcount, it cuts a lot of what was the GMC book's Introduction chapter, now titled Gears Within Gears. And that material was some of the best material in the book, giving a ground's-eye view of what all the different moving parts of the God-Machine were (and it has a bunch of moving parts to familiarize yourself with), what role they play, examples of how they manifest in the game universe, and optional hooks for games that dig deeper.
I mean, you can't cut flyman slamming the door in the pizza woman's face. He still has a half-page illustration in the book, even though the text that explained why there was a picture of a flyman is gone.

I will do whatever it takes to get it now that I know

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


SirPhoebos posted:

I met Tony at last year's Gencon. I bought his artbook, and he drew a Slaad for me.

Yeah, I got him to sign a good number of my Planescape books. He also drew my favorite terrible edgelord, Factol Pentar, at my request in the artbook. He was really friendly and seemed genuinely interested in my work on Planewalker.com, which I found surprising. I wouldn't expect him to be a GenCon regular - I imagine it had a lot to do with his artbook dropping - but he's a legit D&D nerd and seems to be really appreciate the fanbase that he built up working on the line.

Asimo
Sep 23, 2007



Yeah, I'm positive that he's one of the people who left the RPG industry solely because he could make infinitely more money doing stuff elsewhere rather than because he had problems with it, yeah.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

Horned Rat-Sempai Noticed Me!


Alien Rope Burn posted:

Yeah, I got him to sign a good number of my Planescape books. He also drew my favorite terrible edgelord, Factol Pentar, at my request in the artbook. He was really friendly and seemed genuinely interested in my work on Planewalker.com, which I found surprising. I wouldn't expect him to be a GenCon regular - I imagine it had a lot to do with his artbook dropping - but he's a legit D&D nerd and seems to be really appreciate the fanbase that he built up working on the line.

What did you do on Planewalker?

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012







Chapter 2: Waking Nightmares
So, as usual for CofD, we open with some fiction. And, as usual for this book, it is horribly out of step with everything that has been written so far.

quote:

“The gently caress are you looking at, dipshit?” Kyle snarled, standing up and walking up with his hands out in a macho pose he’d probably seen in a dozen tough-guy movies.

Ben stopped up short, hands hooked around his backpack straps, trying to hide the smile on his face, maybe even put on a little fear. That’s what they’d want to see, after all, and that just made what was coming even sweeter. There were three of them, Kyle and two of his admirers. You could usually catch them smoking at the edge of the parking lot before school. He’d heard they liked to come out here and sneak some booze, maybe blaze a little bit, but the thin boy with frightened eyes behind them told a different story.

Good. He’d been hoping for something worse than a little weed.

“Hey guys, I just wanted to let you know — you know what? gently caress it.” Ben normally drew out a feeding, savoring the indulgence, but the monster was growling loudly and he couldn’t be bothered. Instead he drew on the cold depths within and looked at the two boys behind Kyle with eyes that had seen what lived in the lightless dark. “Get the gently caress out of here.”

All the color drained from the boys’ faces as they scrambled away from Ben, tripping over backpacks and nearly pitching headfirst off the loading dock in their haste to get away. Kyle looked around, disbelieving, as his “muscle” slammed the door shut behind them with such force the plexiglass panel rattled in the frame. “What the gently caress —”

Ben grabbed hold of Kyle’s arm. The older boy threw a wild haymaker with his free hand. It bounced off Ben’s temple without so much as moving his head. Ben had a moment to savor Kyle’s confusion as it turned to panic before he squeezed the older boy’s wrist. Bone groaned under the pressure and Kyle shrieked, falling to his knees.

“This is what being an rear end in a top hat gets you,” Ben said casually, still squeezing. His Horror savored the punishment, drinking it in, and for the first time in days Ben’s head cleared. He enjoyed it so much he forgot Kyle was still there until the boy began to blubber. Ben let go of his wrist like he was tossing a piece of garbage. “Now gently caress off.”

Kyle yelped and scurried backward, clutching his wrist, where a bright crop of unusual bruises was already blooming. He looked at his bag and back at Ben, thought better of it and left it behind, hurrying after his friends.

“Holy poo poo,” the younger boy said when they were alone. He looked Ben over, eyes still frightened. “How did you do that?”

Ben shrugged. “People don’t gently caress with you if you don’t let them.”

“Well, thanks.” The boy smiled weakly. “They were gonna gently caress me up. Fourth time this month.” He pulled down the collar of his shirt to reveal yellowing traces of old bruises. “And all I did was scratch the big guy’s car by accident.”

“Oh really?” Ben felt his Horror stir. Maybe he could make another meal of Kyle sooner than he’d thought. He put his arm across the other boy’s shoulders, barely registering the flinch. “Tell me about it. Maybe there’s something I can do.”
So we have a nemesis who is seeking out a person, rather than a crime. This person is also apparently still in High School (Meaning his devouring either came super early or we're dealing with another case of 'oh yeah beasts are born gently caress you') and is a stereotypical geek sticking it to big burly jocks and bullies. This is pure 100% adolescent revenge fantasy, and at least Werewolf tries to be subtle about it.

Tales of the Dark Mother: Tanya posted:

It was meant to be the other way around. She should have been the one chasing them, her shrieking laugh echoing off the sandstone walls of her Lair as they fumbled through the maze of twisting passages. She should have been tearing them apart, first from each-other, then bone from flesh and muscle from sinew in a long-awaited feast.

But one mistake, and now Tanya was the one running for her life. There were only six of them, one Hero and five of his lackeys, but they were armed and she had nothing but a perfect trap that they had just completely avoided. She had better eyes, but they had longer legs and far more practice running. They were gaining on her. A part of her yearned to just turn and sink her teeth into one of their throats, take him down with her in a blaze of glory and death. But her family was waiting back in the warehouse, and who knew what kind of trouble they’d get themselves into if she didn’t survive? Besides, it wasn’t just their flesh her Horror wanted. They needed to know what they’d done first. They needed to know that she knew who the real monsters were.

She made her feet beat faster down the wet pavement, forced aside her gnawing Hunger to focus on the escape. Left turn at the intersection, right turn to duck into the alleyways, then left again. The dark corners of the city could be a little like a maze, maybe like enough to call to her Lair? If she could just have a moment to breath, to figure out a plan. Another turn up ahead, maybe with a few more twists and turns she could slow them down.

Or maybe she’d find a dead end. It was too late to turn back by the time she saw the tall chain fence that blocked the way, slick with rain and sharp with barbed wire. The thud of her pursuers was close, and closer still with every moment. This was it, then. Dying cold, wet, and alone. No, not alone.

Beyond the fence, through darkness not even Tanya’s keen eyes could pierce, there was something waiting. Something fierce and ravenous, even by a Beast’s discerning standards. Something horrible. Tanya’s breath caught in her throat, but the fear that washed over her was familiar. The darkness was familiar too, cold and eternal just like it had been the night of her Devouring. Dangerous, yes, but not to her. Not tonight. Tanya let her mouth curl open in a sharp, predatory grin.

“That’s a dead end” the Hero said, still just out of sight. “We have her. One monster, six of us, this shouldn’t take long.” And then he and his followers turned the corner. What did they see behind that fence, she wondered? How did the Dark Mother show herself to those who weren’t her Children, if she showed herself at all? Whatever they saw, it was enough for the Hero’s lackeys found the better part of valor and turned to run. She’d catch them later, one by one, alone.

But first, food. Tanya licked her lips, and met the Hero’s wavering gaze. “Two of us and one of you, now. I’m going to make this last.”
So another fuckup beast is about to get their just reward but the Dark Mother personally intervenes so that the Beast can commence the torturemurder. Great.


"In the light of reason, humasn think they killed the monsters. The real ones, that is. The wolf needs their help just to survive. The only lions and tigers are in the zoos. Dinosaur bones are strung up like trophies in natural history museums. Secure in his fortress, Man tells himself he has nothing to fear." Clearly it's up to Beasts to fix this perception.

The Primordial Dream
Oh wait it's time for yet more fiction.

quote:

They lounge together, hands occasionally brushing. Once in a while, Patrick reaches up and strokes the back of Ahmed’s head, playing his fingers across recently buzzed hair. It’s easy for Jo to forget they’re monsters.

“I always dream of blood,” she says. Patrick smiles. Ahmed remains poker-faced, but he sits forward. “I mean, not always, but whenever the dream is….”

“Deep,” says Ahmed.

She nods. “Deep. Yeah. I dream of the smell. Not fresh blood, but old, rotted. Like meat. That’s the first thing that hits me. And then the dream is different every time. Once I dreamed that I was in this museum, with all these beautiful people — like model-beautiful, dressed up to the nines — all behind glass. And I was tiny, and weak, and they didn’t notice me, they just stood there.”

Patrick licks his lips. Somewhere, in a place-that-isn’t-a-place, a sea monster breaches the surface looking for food.

“And I walked up to one of them, and I realized she was dead. Dead, but still moving. She stared at me and smiled and she had fangs, and then I realized they all did.” Jo clears her throat. The dream shouldn’t affect her. It was years ago. “I woke up, and I called my friends and changed plans for the weekend. Stayed away from the new club. We never went.”

Ahmed cracks a smile. “You mean Verdant? Club with the big tree on the logo?” Jo nods. “Good call staying away.”

Jo pales a little. “Why?”

“Because the vampires really do run that place.” He reaches over to the cooler and pulls out a beer. “And you are just their type.”
So the two gay beasts who are super gay and we really want you to know that they're gay are talking to someone who may or may not also be a Beast, or is at least a deep dreamer, showing one of the major issues with using fear to teach lessons, it's really only useful in lessons of aversion.

Anyways, we finally get into some real text. The Primordial dream is, basically, a repository for the collective fears of humanity. As we started to grow as a species we began to recognize patterns. A shadow would elicit the fear response of a predator, but the shadow isn't actually dangerous, we don't fear the shadow. We fear the idea of the predator that it represents, which exists only in the Primordial Dream. Fear is basic and primal. Fear teaches simple understandable lessons, do this, don't do that. Parents use fear to keep their children in line: fear of punishment, fear of pain, fear of disapproval. The Primordial Dream harkens back to a time before we had language, when we taught each other what we needed to fear and those lessons were encoded in the dream as monsters.

Noise

quote:

Over time, the population increased and people came together in ever-larger communities. The human mind is equipped to recognize a finite number of other people — approximately 150-200. Anything past that number isn’t a “person.” This works well in a small group, but as the number of humans grew, people’s minds became overwhelmed by the number of unrecognizable beings around them. This led to a number of effects; xenophobia, paranoia, and increased tribalism among them. It also meant that the simple, uncomplicated language of the Primordial Dream was drowned out by the noise of billions of voices, all experiencing the fear of being surrounded by strangers.
That..is..an incredibly dismissive way to describe the very real problems of racism. "It's not our fault! If we would just retreat to a hunter gatherer society then everything would be fine because we'd kill everyone who was different due to reasons of resource competition rather than misplaced fear" Apparently there are still some people who "dream Deep" Though, and they have nightmares that still impart wisdom. Like that their boyfriend is abusive, or that they need to kick their drug habit, or that something else in their life is dangerous and must be excised. Because the primordial dream keeps us safe through fear.

Chambers and Horrors
Every time a human being is shaken to their very core (read: Loses integrity) their fear creates a reflection of the place they are in the primordial dream. When humanity was young, these chambers were few and far between, but now there are so very many, and the oldest ones are being pushed further and further out into the formless depths. Some chambers are so far removed from their origins that their features warp into something between an accurate memory and an imagined narrative. Eventually something from beyond the depths crawls in - a horror.

A Horror is a nightmare monster, a creature from the dreams of the terrified. Modern beasts theorize that every time a person dreams of monsters, that monster already exists somewhere in the deep dream. Others theorize that when a Deep Dreamer has a nightmare they make a Horror. In either case the horror drifts aimless through the dream until it finds a chamber that it finds habitable. It settles down and bonds with it, and the chamber becomes a Lair. Horrors, on their own, rarely touch the minds of human beings deeply enough to have a greater effect beyond a particularly intense nightmare. It might be a cause for discussion but it won't cause lasting harm. Only when Lairs are close to the waking world do the nightmares have the potential to cause harm, and that only happens when a horror joins with a Beast. To summarize, the primordial dream is still doing it's job sometimes, and parents and schools teach the more important lessons. Also horrors would be mostly harmless if Beasts didn't get it in their heads to try and do the primordial dream's job for it. Why are Beasts the good guys again?

Flesh & Blood

quote:

Charlotte sits in the back of class, hunched over a desk two sizes too small. The teacher explained to the class that she has a genetic disorder. She is taller than everyone, boys included, wearing ill-fitting clothes over limbs that seem grotesquely elongated.

The teacher’s words are hollow. People snicker behind her back.

Things are worse at home. Every afternoon, she returns to a ramshackle house with a father who belittles her. She cringes while he rants and raves and throws bottles at her. It doesn’t sting as much as it used to, but the words — the words still hurt.

“It’s your mother’s goddamn fault!” he screams, and she is not sure if he means her being a freak or being alive. To her, there’s no difference.

Every night she goes to bed bruised and brimming with hate. She has nothing to look forward to but doing it all again.
This.. shouldn't be here anymore. Even if beasts are born the entire point is that their human bodies don't reflect their primal souls.

"A Beast is an atavistic throwback. It is a human bein with the souls of a mythic monster, itself a manifestation of fundamental fears: of the unclean and the unknown, of the predator lurking in the shadows, and of forces beyond human reckoning." Beasts disagree on whether they're born or made but regardless they have an uncannily deep connection to the primordial dream. This connection makes them outsiders. One dreams of the deep ocean where they sleep in solitude far away from their peers. Another's eyes stray to a sky that is always out of reach. At night a third one runs on all fours through a darkened forest only to wake up again in the stifling human world. Sometimes they wake up with wisdom that seems obvious in hindsight, but everyone knows the story of Cassandra, so even when they're trying to help they're outcasts. Not all dreams lead to wisdom, however, sometimes they dream of themselves as the monster, and when they wake up in human skin they know that the lump of flesh is not her. She is a prisoner of her own skin and blood.

The time spent as a social pariah leaves lasting psychological scars. The dreamer has every reason to hate their tormentors, but does that make the human race their enemy? What about her family? That one teacher who spoke up for her? That boy next door who had a crush on her even though she was "weird?" They are family even if they aren't kin, which makes her a part of that community. But why can't they recognize it? Beasts are raised human, and even after the Devouring they hold onto that against all odds. They live on the razor's edge between hunger and humanity, because the alternative is to becoem exactly what the Hero believes them to be.

And now I'm going to editorialize a bit because, honestly, if they still have amazingly lovely childhoods due to their connections to the primordial dream and carry those prejudices with them to their devoured life then it doesn't loving matter if Beasts are born Beasts or not. Because they're born potential Beasts, and potential Beasts suffer the exact same way that Born Beasts used to. It's still a revenge fantasy against bullies who picked on you for things outside of your control. It's just that enough words were changed so that it's not obvious on a shallow reading of the text. People just see "Beasts are not born" in the first chapter, decide that that's okay, and never read anything else. Now back to the review.

Devouring

quote:

Rick is climbing. He does not know where he is or how he got here, but such is the way of dreams. The sun shines on his back, and he reaches up for the next handhold, smiling, happy, free. A good dream.

No. A shadow over the sun, just for a moment. This isn’t a good dream. This is the other dream, the dream where—He has no time to think before the talons hit home. He is plucked from the mountainside, hundreds of feet in the air, with burning, searing pain in his shoulder and leg where the great bird’s claws have pierced him. He twists to see the thing, to finally see it, but he cannot move. He hears the wings beating, but everything else is pain.

The claws move, pushing him forward. The beak — he can finally see the beak. It closes over his head, and he hears the SNAP as his neck breaks.

Darkness. Nothing. And then…the sun returns. He emerged from a cave. He’s standing on his own mountain, but it overlooks a vast forest, lush and green. But that isn’t right, he thinks. That forest should be burning and charred.

He does not think. He takes flight. He swoops low and spits fire into the trees, and then soars high, gazing down over the forest, the mountain, his Lair, his new home. He will never dream of being plucked from the mountain again. Others will dream of him.
There is no blood or DNA test that you can use to find a Beast, their difference is only within their soul, or lack there of. Beasts are ever defined by their recurring nightmares, they are the first victim of the horrors they will inflict upon others for the rest of time. Potential Beasts make come to several conclusions about their nightmares. Some see them as their subconscious trying to tell them something, albeit in a weird allegorical way. Some assume they are psychic. Very curious dreamers might seek out the supernatural thinking that their dreams make them worthy to join the ranks of the unseen. "They aren't wrong, as it happens", we should just replace beast's skull logo with the emoticon.

Anyways, eventually the Dark Mother finds them. And that first exposure shapes them forever.

quote:

Sometimes, the devouring just happens. The Horror ascends from the Primordial Dream, finds the dreamer, and consumes the thin veneer of humanity that was her soul. Sometimes, a Beast finds the dreamer, her horror drifting towards the dreams of a seemingly normal person who's nightmares extend deep into the Primordial Dream. The Beast might then choose to offer the Devouring the dreamer. Some Beasts couch the Devouring the form of an offer; become a Beast, or remain a dreamer. Some are less friendly about the choice, making it clear that if the dreamer refuses to join the Begotten, she can’t be allowed to live. Some don’t even bother making the offer, but progress directly to the Devouring. Very occasionally, the dreamer spots a Beast first and follows her, trying to make sense of the odd connection she feels, eventually realizing she is, in a sense, chasing herself.
In any case, though, the Beast isn’t losing her humanity, but gaining her true self. She experiences one final nightmare: The Devouring.
Uhhhhhhh, that paragraph has implications. Becoming a Beast is no longer a choice, it's something that can just happen. Which does put them more in line with the other Supernatural Creatures in the World of Darkness, but "Yeah I'm better than you because I'm both special and was chosen" is really really stupid.

The Final Nightmare
However it happens, the last thing the human dreamer sees is their own horror for the First Time.

quote:

The particulars of this process are the subject of much debate among Beasts. If the Beast’s Devouring is brought on by another of the Children, is the new Beast’s Horror chosen, in some way, by the Beast that does the Devouring? If that’s the case, it would make sense for a Makara to “spawn” other Makara, but that isn’t always what happens; a Makara might Devour a dreamer only for the dreamer to become an Anakim or an Eshmaki or a member of any other Family. Is the new Beast’s Horror — and therefore her Family and Hunger — random? That doesn’t seem to make sense, either, as new Beasts invariably feel that by becoming a Beast, they have not lost their humanity but gained something they were missing all along.

That feeling — the realization that the dreamer has, in some way, always been a Beast — isn’t universal, but is extremely common. The dreamer might never have had the language to describe it, but all her life, she felt different. With her soul cleared away and the Horror finally replacing it, she claims a birthright she never knew she had. For Beasts Devoured by other Beasts, they have a big sibling to welcome them to their new family. For Beasts who experience the Devouring spontaneously, the Devouring is more of a homecoming.
Fffffffuck you McFarland. It's been a long time since I've seen so much passive aggression directed at proving one's critics wrong.

Apparently there is a choice given after your soul is devoured where you must choose to accept the Horror, even if you're devoured against your will. But I assume that the 'No' response results in you dying forever.


The Mythic Self
Most horrors are ancient things, their origins lying in the earliest epochs of human history. Rarely, a beast inherits a strong Horror with a name and a history. They aren't just Ugallu, she is Ashalla, the Idiptu wind-fiend who unleashed hell on ancient Babylon. But not every Beast has a mythic antecedent. Old fears evolve and new ones are born. Somewhere there's a beast who's Horror was born in a SARS outbreak. Beasts are born out of Humanity and Humans have no end of reasons to fear.
Beasts can bring aspects of their lair into reality, imposing supernatural heat or darkness upon their surroundings. They can also call upon Atavisms to let the strength of their Horror loose in the waking world, any nearby supernatural creatures or humans with a psychic bent will catch a glimpse of their horror as the Atavism does its work. It's not all hunky-dory between the Horror and the Human, the Horror is a ravening Id, blunt and instinctual and filled with a desire to feed. Morality is irrelevant to the Horror, it doesn't just want to do the things it does, it must, so some Beasts try to put that Need to work teaching humanity.

Family

quote:

The date isn’t going well. It’s going fine, which is the opposite of how Rick wanted it to go. Alessandro is completely Rick’s type — strong arms, blue eyes, thick hair — but he seems tentative. Rick can’t quite stop seeing him as…well, prey. They haven’t really found anything to talk about.

“What do you dream about?” Alessandro’s question is weird, but what the hell.

“Flying,” says Rick. “Mostly.”

“Like a bird?” Alessandro’s blue eyes are fixed on Rick, and Rick notices he isn’t blinking.

“Like a hawk.” Rick licks his lips.

“And you dive.”

“Yeah.”

“And then you catch—“

“Whatever I’m diving at. Yeah.”

They stare at each other for a minute longer. “I have that dream, too,” whispers Alessandro.
Good lord more Homosexual beasts? I have no problems with gay people but half the fiction we've run across so far in this chapter has been Gay Beasts talking about their shared dreams.

Each family embodies an iconic fear from the collective unconscious, with individual Beasts being variations on a theme. The firstborn were insatiable in their struggle to feed their hungers and they spread nightmares far and wide that spawned more of their kind. Thus the relationship between myth and monster is symbiotic. Humans believe naming something gives them power over it, but Beasts can use these names to become more concrete in the Dream, giving themselves more concrete form and identity.

During the devouring, a Beast is reborn into their new family. It is essential to their identity from the moment they embrace their Horror and Hunger. He feels the echoes of their nightmares and are compelled to seek them out. They are not just familiar, they are of the same flesh and essence. Family is more than just lineage, it's shared experience. Even before the Devouring a Beast's dreams color their perceptions and bleed over into their interactions with people around them. They swap stories about childhood dreams and their eyes light up with understanding.

They then spend two pages describing the Families again but they did that in the previous chapter in more detail, so I'll just skip ahead.

Beast Culture
Hoooooooo boy, this part is entirely new added even since the copy of the book released in December. See, the Begotten don't really have a world spanning society, but they do have certain societal mores that they try to impose on the others that they initiate into their society.

We Are All Family
Beasts are all related to the Dark Mother, even if only symbolically. So they consider it a responsibility to take care of one another. Sometimes that means tough love, as a Beast who won't curb their impulses attracts attention from Heroes or their extended family, and that endngers all of the Beasts. For the most part, though, Beasts are expected to try and figure out why one of their siblings is out of control before taking violent or punitive action.

We Are Allowed To Be What We Are
Beasts are monsters, they can't not be. They must be allowed to hunt, feed, and even kill. Beasts debate over how monstrous they're allowed to be before intevention is appropriate, and some of that debate involves the specifics of the region, what kind of extended family is around and what their priorities are, what Hero activity has been like, and who the Apex is.

Eat to Live, Don't Live to Eat
Beasts must be more than just their Horrors. A Horror only wants to sate it's Hunger, but a Beast isn't just that Hunger. A Beast can use her hunger to teach the world, to bring it wisdom (not knowlege). Beasts expect their siblings to do so, to bring some kind of lesson with them when they choose their victims. Feeding for survival, of course, is different. If the options are "Feed without teaching" or "Starve" no one would begrudge a little mayhem. At the same time, Beasts encourage eachother to consider how their feeding affects the world, after all they have to be better than the Heroes make them out to be.


These are literally Geek Social Fallacies, we can't ostracise anyone because we're family, we can only do so if they're making the rest of us look bad. The idea that "outsiders" need to band together against the oppression of the popular kids and that we can't make any judgements about them because obviously we're just as bad and... yeah. Beast culture exists to reinforce itself and nothing else.

The Brood
Beasts feel the need for companionship very keenly. The Devouring opens the door to a new family, one that understand them intimately and accept them for what they are, no questions asked (Cough geeksocialfallacies cough) and will stand by them when Heroes come asking for blood. Beasts can sense each other in the primordial dream, and they will eventually find eachother there if they're in the same general are. This is how new Beasts are found and brought into the fold.

The brood is the only real form of Beast Social construction and the only one that really matters. The main difference is that they can comprise non-beast entities as well, Vampires and Werewolves, etc. Beasts are a clannish lot, they help their kin when possible (and convenient) but they will do anything to help their Brood.

The Hive
Once they're in a brood, a beast's lair will knit itself together with the other lairs into a shared hunting ground. Using the shared Lair they can communicate in dreams regardless of real world distance, though they abhor traveling apart from their Brood for any reasons, it just feels wrong. Furthermore a Beast can draw strength from locations resonant with his broodmates, and learn their Nightmares and Atavisms.

The bond does come with risks, however, if a Beast lets his horror starve and run rampant it will travel through the entire shared Lair. And if a Hero hunts them down such a confrontation can only end in the shared Lair. Hunger is no longer an individual concern in a Brood. Thus individual Beasts can choose to wall themselves off from the hive. It's usually a safe thing to do, but if you have a small lair then your hungry Horror will predate the same places over and over again, making it that much easier for a Hero to find you.

The Apex
Population centers spawn a large number of Chambers, and they remain unconnected unless a Beast chooses to bind them into their Lair. That doesn't mean that they're all different, they all share some similarity, an aspect granted tot hem by the supernatural figure that looms largest in the area's Primordial Dream. The Apex.

A creature can be an Apex without even really realizing it's influence on the Dream, though they must have regular, direct contact with humanity. A vampire who has his meals delivered wouldn't be the Apex regardless of how powerful he is. But a werewolf who leads his pack on regular hunts through the cities streets might have spawned enough nightmares and chambers to turn the local dream into a darkened steel forest. Beasts are slightly more likely to become the Apex just because they directly interact with humanity and their dreams, but it varies based on the city in question.

An Apex Beast isn't necessarily a leader, and might not take any interest at all in the other Beasts of the region, focusing only on their own goals, lesson or Legend. She might also set themselves up as a Dictator, using their power int he Dream to enter other Beast's Lairs and subjugate their Horrors, torture their family, or force them to use their Legends to serve them. Beasts as a whole have an odd relationship with such Cruel Apexes. They still feel the pain and humiliation, but they're also bound by their own social fallacies principles. They won't blindly obey the Apex (Since the Apex has no authority that they can't defend) but a patient and careful Apex can dominate the Primordial dream of an area for Decades, bringing multiple broods to heel.

Extended Family

quote:

The dead girl is a good listener. She scribbles in her book, swiping absentmindedly at her hair, and lets John spill his guts. She never touches her coffee.

She looks up when he finishes. His knuckles are white on the table. He forces himself to relax, his talons digging into the Formica surface. He takes his own coffee with what looks like a human hand.

“You don’t believe me, do you?”

“I believe everything.” Alice gives him a crooked smile, showing the edges of sharp teeth. She covers it as the waitress passes. “I want to help you. Believe me, I know the importance of family. But you have to do something for me first.”

“What?”

“More.” She taps her pen on the paper. “I need more. I need everything.”
Beasts are not just kin to eachother, they are also Kin to the other supernatural creatures of the world. Their instinctive search for kin might find a coterie of Gangrel, or a pack of Werewolves instead. And they probably have some explaining to do to their new 'family'.

Some Beasts feel that other supernatural beings, like Beasts, share an intrinsic connection to the Primordial Dream, but chose somewhere along the way to solidify that connection. A vampire is a highly specific type of nightmare (one of a corpse brought to life by blood and burned by the sun). A werewolf is a human who changes shape into a predator with silver anathema. Their own cultural beliefs are not invalid (Father wolf exists, changeling did escape captivity) but those events stemmed from the Primordial dream (somehow).

Other beasts think that that explanation is full of poo poo, even though it makes Beasts into the "Big Brother" of the entire supernatural milieu. There isn't a shred of evidence backing it up in any way. These are the Beasts who tend to get along best with the other supernaturals, that way there's no fighting over Who's interpretation of the Dark Mother and Father Wolf is correct.

The truth of the matter is that Beasts have a connection to the supernatural but not specifically supernatural beings. The horrors that they inflict on the dream are reflected in the Beast, and that is where the kinship comes from. And that kinship cannot be denied, Beasts are familiar, and Beasts can feed when their kin feed. But while every werewolf is a werewolf "every Beast is Unique".

Vampires
Vampires aren't really big fans of the way Beasts bring their hunger into direct focus. But both sides understand the need to feed and can bond over that. Relationships between the two are still fraught with tension, though, especially if Beasts compete with vampires for prey and influence. Vampires are also prone to treachery, which makes them problematic as allies.

I love that the Vampire of all people is going "The gently caress is wrong with these people?"

Werewolves
The Wolf Must Hunt. They are a walking embodiment of the Hunger for Prey, and are blood brothers to beasts with similar appetites. Right down to competition over who's the better predator. Pack Loyalty more than makes up for any conflict if they can be won as friends. Moreover, Uratha have a natural affinity for the Primordial Pathways, which are not too different than the Shadow.

The werewolves rightly think Beast's are loving crazy, got it.

Mages
Mages are more human than other kin, but they still have a hunger. For secrets, for knowledge, for power. Collectors understand this hunger, as they want to keep secrets so that they keep their power. A relationship between a Mage and a Collector is a cautious, protracted (and maybe flirtatious) game of cat and mouse as they decide how much to reveal to each other. "Since Beasts often find themselves involved in the deeper mysteries of the Chronicles of Darkness, though, they have enticing bait with which to lure a mage."

"Spiritual Genetics" Sure.

Prometheans
The Created are a puzzle. Their Disquiet causes nightmares similar to a ravening Beast's Horror, and their Refinements are draped in Mythic Symbolism. However they were created by human demiurges, and a Promethean's ultimate goal is to be Normal, which is in many ways the exact opposite of a Beast. They let Beasts accompany them on their Pilgrimages, but the Created are Rare and disappear without a trace once their time is over, making it difficult to learn more about them.

I'm not too well read on Promethean but.. I'm pretty sure that this would never happen.

Changelings
"The Lost are Beasts as far as the Children are concerned." which is among the several insults Beast will levy at that gameline. Since they walk in dreams and were transformed by some otherworldly entity. Attitudes about the "Fair Folk" vary, on the one hand they can understand their need to sate their hungers, but they're also beyond humanity and beyond dreams, which make Beasts Nervous.

.....right...

Sin-Eaters
Death is the root of all Fear, and has unmatched potential in the human Psyche. The Primordial Pathways touch the underworld as much as any other realm, and Beasts suspect that Geists are Horrors from a different realm. Perhaps the remnants of a long dead Family clawing back to life.

I know even less about Sin-Eaters than I do about Promethean.

Mummies
Their existence is mysterious! They cause a Sickness that resembles the nightmares of a rampant horror! Beasts think that they too are children who were bound to their current form by Human Sorcery. They're compelled by instinctual urges but the Arisen's are externally imposed by Duat.

Oh shut the gently caress up.

Demons
The Unchained are extraordinarily secretive and hold the Children in contempt. Encounters between the two terminate in violence and vicious rivalry. Particularly if the Beast manages to see through the Demon's facade since that exposes them to the scrutiny of the God Machine. Whatever they are, they are not kin.

Yay! Demons are the new Good Guys! Please tell us how to kill Beasts, repeatedly, forever.


We're about halfway done with this chapter and butting up against the character limit. Also I'm kind of tired of writing about the various ways in which McFarland wrote his way around the requirements placed upon him.

Next Time: Feeding, Lessons, and Heroes

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




As a fan of the other gamelines, the way Beast walks all over them pisses me off.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


Fallen Rib

MonsieurChoc posted:

As a fan of the other gamelines, the way Beast walks all over them pisses me off.

Well it used to be worse in the sense that in the original draft Beasts and other supernaturals were supposed to be best buds for reasons.

gourdcaptain
Nov 16, 2012



Kai Tave posted:

Well it used to be worse in the sense that in the original draft Beasts and other supernaturals were supposed to be best buds for reasons.

True, but it's almost worse now that the text exudes an aura of "I'm so clever I wrote my way around all your petty criticisms while still keeping in the real message". The worst part is he's mostly gotten away with it.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



At least in every other line's books that mention them, no one actually seems to like Beasts.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



And there's again that disquieting way Changelings get poo poo on for being victims.

Young Freud
Nov 25, 2006



The only way Beast will seem to be redeemable is if you can play Beasts that feed on other Beasts.

Also, why is there on The View From Without: Hunter? Hunters are more of a line than Geist or Mummies.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012






View from without Hunter is in the section talking about Heroes making GBS threads on some guy named "Dante".

Since they never talk about Hunters directly It felt more thematically appropriate to hold onto it till then, but I already pulled it out.

Kurieg fucked around with this message at 19:38 on May 22, 2016

Gazetteer
Nov 22, 2011

"You're talking to cats."
"And you eat ghosts, so shut the fuck up."

I actually don't hate the mummy one. You can almost read that as acknowledging how awful and pointless Beasts are and how the morality lesson bullshit is just them making poo poo up to justify their continued existence.

LatwPIAT
Jun 6, 2011

Do I need a title?

Kurieg posted:

Beast Culture
Hoooooooo boy, this part is entirely new added even since the copy of the book released in December. See, the Begotten don't really have a world spanning society, but they do have certain societal mores that they try to impose on the others that they initiate into their society.

We Are All Family
Beasts are all related to the Dark Mother, even if only symbolically. So they consider it a responsibility to take care of one another. Sometimes that means tough love, as a Beast who won't curb their impulses attracts attention from Heroes or their extended family, and that endngers all of the Beasts. For the most part, though, Beasts are expected to try and figure out why one of their siblings is out of control before taking violent or punitive action.

We Are Allowed To Be What We Are
Beasts are monsters, they can't not be. They must be allowed to hunt, feed, and even kill. Beasts debate over how monstrous they're allowed to be before intevention is appropriate, and some of that debate involves the specifics of the region, what kind of extended family is around and what their priorities are, what Hero activity has been like, and who the Apex is.

Eat to Live, Don't Live to Eat
Beasts must be more than just their Horrors. A Horror only wants to sate it's Hunger, but a Beast isn't just that Hunger. A Beast can use her hunger to teach the world, to bring it wisdom (not knowlege). Beasts expect their siblings to do so, to bring some kind of lesson with them when they choose their victims. Feeding for survival, of course, is different. If the options are "Feed without teaching" or "Starve" no one would begrudge a little mayhem. At the same time, Beasts encourage eachother to consider how their feeding affects the world, after all they have to be better than the Heroes make them out to be.


These are literally Geek Social Fallacies, we can't ostracise anyone because we're family, we can only do so if they're making the rest of us look bad. The idea that "outsiders" need to band together against the oppression of the popular kids and that we can't make any judgements about them because obviously we're just as bad and... yeah. Beast culture exists to reinforce itself and nothing else.

I see what McFarland is trying to do here. He's trying to draw a parallel to the gay community and on a larger scale the non-hetronormative LGBT community, the concept of an LGBT Family, and Gay house culture. Their shared hardship makes all Beasts into a family that organizes itself into independent, unorganized households of mostly young people, and they rail against respectability politics; gay people should not have to follow the arbitrary norms of the heteronormative society. Expressions of homosexuality, of flamboyance, genders that fall outside the norm - all of these things should be acceptable.

And it's easy to say that now; we're all one big family and gay people (here represented by Beasts) should be allowed to be what they are. Unfortunately (and this is touching on the knife's edge of bad taste here) this also invites a comparison to people who have been part of the greater gay movement but who have been excluded because, in fact, not everyone are allowed to be who they are. The North American Man/Boy Love Association are not accepted by the LGBT community to be who they are, and when NAMBLA were associated with the LGBT movement, it was rather controversial. In 1994, the US Congress suspended 119 million US dollars in UN support to the International Gay and Lesbian Association by a unanimous vote because the IGLA comprised NAMBLA. Earlier, from 1979 to the mid-80's, various LGBT groups had decided not to join in Pride marches because NAMBLA was dominating or allowed to participate. The prominent gay rights advocate Harry Hay is someone I suspect most people don't mention much these days because his work in the 80's and 90's was to protest that NAMBLA was excluded from the mainstream LGBT organizations and his advocacy for older gay men to have sexual relationships with 13-year-old boys. Part of the reason the homosexual/pedophile argument stands so strong and prominent even today is because NAMBLA was part of the LGBT movement.

The whole "we're allowed to be what we are" thing that LGBT people are supposed to be prideful of is one that comes with the caveat "unless you're actually really loving nasty". (The gay-dominated LGBT community has also taken criticism from some feminists and some transwomen for how it exalts drag shows, by the critics are seen as extremely misogynistic. The reason this is not spoken very loudly of is because of solidarity; anti-drag feminists were silenced or excluded in order to strengthen ties between the LGBT and Feminist movements in the 70's and 80's.) You're not supposed to be ashamed of who you are if you're part of the LGBT family, but you're not allowed to be part of it if you're a child molester.

And why aren't child molesters allowed be part of the LGBT movement these days?

Because they hurt people. Like Beasts do.

Beasts are not GLAAD. They're NAMBLA.

LatwPIAT fucked around with this message at 19:50 on May 22, 2016

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012






LatwPIAT posted:

Beasts are not GLAAD. They're NAMBLA.

There's also the weird transverse property of "You know maybe Gamergate has a point if the feminists and gay people are literally eating peoples hopes and dreams."

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

Horned Rat-Sempai Noticed Me!


Young Freud posted:

The only way Beast will seem to be redeemable is if you can play Beasts that feed on other Beasts.

No the best way to redeem this poo poo is to turn it into a parody of every WoD/CotD book way to far up its rear end. Call it MRA: The Redditing or something.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


SirPhoebos posted:

No the best way to redeem this poo poo is to turn it into a parody of every WoD/CotD book way to far up its rear end. Call it MRA: The Redditing or something.

Followed up by its sister products Tumblr: The Dangerhairing and Social: The Justicing.

And dear Lord, we're only at Chapter 2? This book is pain.

Doresh fucked around with this message at 20:18 on May 22, 2016

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



Okay, on the topic of Prometheans and Sin Eaters, I can't honestly say either of them would completely approve of Beasts, period.

Prometheans are all about trying to become human and they view the other supernatural groups with various degrees of curiosity and disgust for their relationship with the world. I can't honestly say that the majority of them would want anything to do with a species that willingly cast away their humanity for power, it's absolute anathema to them. The only ones who I think would want to interact with Beasts would be Centimanni, the monstrously-formed pilgrims who reject humanity to be evil or believe in exploring the nature of evil to understand what it means to be human. But even then I think the interactions would only go so far; Beasts have the posturing of "well we're monsters but we're not monstrous" to which your average "gently caress humanity" Centimanni would reply "yeah alright buddy, you're holding yourself and your potential back by not admitting what you are. You're as much of a hypocrite as humanity is, see you" before leaving.

Sin Eaters don't have the luxury of being well written but to an average Sin Eater I'd imagine that they would view a Beast as a horrible idea. Their union with a Geist is symbiotic, who the gently caress would want to give up their whole soul for a thing to ride inside of them? Sin Eaters know what happens when there's no pilot but the Geist is at the wheel and it's never pretty. At the very least it would spark a debate amongst Sin Eaters on how much they lost by joining up with a Geist, at the very worst they would stay the gently caress away or try to kill the Beast because there are a lot of similarities between a Beast and a lone Geist in a meat body indulging its desires.

Precambrian
Apr 30, 2008



Kai Tave posted:

Well it used to be worse in the sense that in the original draft Beasts and other supernaturals were supposed to be best buds for reasons.

Part of it was to make Beast a crossover-ideal gameline, to help less popular books, like Promethean, get more use. I think a lot of Beast's problems stem from that, particularly their lack of focus, since they had to have elements to fit with Vampires, Werewolves, Changeling, etc.

I do like the concept of Beasts being unnaturally appealing to other supernaturals, though, because it plays well with the ongoing internal drama. Vampires and the like are tempted by their powers to become more monstrous and less human, and Beasts are a personification of that monstrous power.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012






I do find it amusing that the explicit text of the book is "Beasts are special and amazing and necessary and everybody loves them" while the subtext is "Beasts are lying to themselves because the alternative is to admit they've made a terrible mistake, and by pulling other people into the lie they make themselves feel better."

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


The book says

Kurieg posted:

“The gently caress are you looking at, dipshit?” Kyle snarled, standing up and walking up with his hands out in a macho pose he’d probably seen in a dozen tough-guy movies.
but all I see is



edit-

I think it also says a lot about how Beasts "fit" into the nWoD/CoD line when all of the reactions from other splats are somewhere between "WTF" and "I guess it's okay in this weird edge case with lots of caveats"

Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 20:46 on May 22, 2016

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



And who the heck uses 'tough-guy films'?

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


Fallen Rib

Robindaybird posted:

And who the heck uses 'tough-guy films'?

Beast, the Troper Tales of the nWoD.

Calde
Jun 20, 2009


LatwPIAT posted:

Beasts are not GLAAD. They're NAMBLA.

Wow, thanks for that informative post!

To take a different yet related tack, has anyone sat down and analysed the way that Beast borrows the language of LGBT/feminist/etc movements and compared it to how alt-right groups co-opt language? I know we joke about it but Beast sounds exactly the same as any "Manosphere" blog or Christian persecution screed. "You mean I can't beat gays with tire irons or cut my girlfriend's ties to her friends and family, that's oppressing me!"

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



Also thanks to that sidebar about a Hero being mistaken for a Slasher, now I'm personally imagining a big showdown between every splat and their enemies (Heroes, Seers, Strix, etc.) gearing up for an end-of-days crossover slugfest and as they charge each other VASCU agents pile out of cars and arrest everyone like the end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail. A big action setpiece turned into a slapstick farce.

E: whoops I said hunter at the beginning of that when I meant to say hero. My bad, shame on me.

Hostile V fucked around with this message at 20:55 on May 22, 2016

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Hostile V posted:

Also thanks to that sidebar about a Hunter being mistaken for a Slasher, now I'm personally imagining a big showdown between every splat and their enemies (Heroes, Seers, Strix, etc.) gearing up for an end-of-days crossover slugfest and as they charge each other VASCU agents pile out of cars and arrest everyone like the end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail. A big action setpiece turned into a slapstick farce.

I wouldn't end the metaplot any other way. Especially if there's also an "epilogue" book about playing as lawyers.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

Horned Rat-Sempai Noticed Me!


Doresh posted:

I wouldn't end the metaplot any other way. Especially if there's also an "epilogue" book about playing as lawyers.

Attorney: The Subpoena

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

Doresh posted:

I wouldn't end the metaplot any other way. Especially if there's also an "epilogue" book about playing as lawyers.

That was a sister show to Kindred: the Embraced, wasn't it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUltrX-ICew

Bieeanshee fucked around with this message at 21:41 on May 22, 2016

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Could you imagine a show about Beasts?

SirPhoebos posted:

Attorney: The Subpoena

Attorney: The Objectioning.

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Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


Doresh posted:

Could you imagine a show about Beasts?

it'd be Law and Order: Special Victims Unit except you're strapped to your chair and electrified if you aren't rooting for the rapist of the week



also no Munch

Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 23:45 on May 22, 2016

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