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Feinne
Oct 9, 2007

When you fall, get right back up again.


JcDent posted:

I'm kinda bummed the bestiary being so literal about beasts. Fighting animals doesn't sound that riveting, no matter how big they are. If the megalodon was guarding an underwater Nazi kinori research lab, maaaybe...

Also, oh my God, Satanis is the worst poo poo. Starting with fukken wizards being turned into random assembly of parts as a good thing, then they have a world that functions kinda identically to a world identical to inhabited by humans - they have inns and clubs and whatever - there's really no way that the world seems like it's inhabited with loving screaming trees.

I think there's only one more section that includes animals, Extratemporals (which has a couple of dinosaurs that totally could have fit in Africa but then why have the Extratemporals section I guess).

Extradimensionals is going to be really long so I'll either split it or it'll take a few to write.

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PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


ZorajitZorajit posted:

Hey, I'm guessing the answer is but is there any review moratorium for writing up a system? I've got a copy of FFG's Genesys and was thinking about writing it up to help myself learn it. Wanted to ask since it's both new and generic, didn't want to run up to the line of outright piracy.

Far as I know there's no rule that stuff has to wait a certain period before being reviewed. I mean, obviously if you're pasting every page in the book into your review, yeah, it's a bit close to piracy, but if you're just snagging choice paragraphs or sentences that are interesting/broken/hilarious/important, it's no different from any other sort of Day 1 review, which I've yet to hear people try to claim is piracy.

So I'd say go right ahead.

RedSnapper
Nov 22, 2016


JcDent posted:

Also, oh my God, Satanis is the worst poo poo.

I like how the first scenario (you know, the one that's supposed to introduce new players to the setting) starts with the PCs loving off to present day Earth. Really shows the autor's faith in the system.
I hate how, because of this thing, I now want to somehow add GWAR to my ongoing Mage game..

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!


The bizzare meltingpot of Satanis reminds of The Last Dance in the way it's just farted out with no care for proofreading. I'd think that if you're making a game like this, it's because you're hype about your created world. So why would you not want to make it work?

At least nothing is lost here, since neither Last Dance nor Satanis have a setting or idea that's interesting. Too bad about Starfinger (elves in spaaace!), Unhallow Metropolis (this one has an interesting setting... that's not explored), Abandon All Hope (giant prison ship crashes into hell) or Cthulhutech.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Starfinger is kind of interesting to me in concept, because it's more like the sort of science fantasy you see at the "cosmic scale" of the Marvel and DC universes. Magic is a real and quantifiable science, we know for a fact that the gods exist in the form or super-powerful aliens with funny helmets, etc. Too bad that it only comes about as the accidental result of translating D&D into spaaace in the most low-effort way imaginable.

Freaking Crumbum
Apr 17, 2003

Too fuck to drunk




JcDent posted:

I'm kinda bummed the bestiary being so literal about beasts. Fighting animals doesn't sound that riveting, no matter how big they are. If the megalodon was guarding an underwater Nazi kinori research lab, maaaybe...

IMO it's an artifact of Alternity being the death rattle of TSR. D&D monster manuals were/are jam packed full of monsters with little or no indication of what players were supposed to do with a given monster or why a GM would even want to include said monster, outside of just being random encounter table fodder.

It makes sense that for a bestiary that covers 199X Earth, you'd want some aquatic entries, but I agree it'd have been more interesting for them to lean more heavily on a supernatural origin for the aquatic beasts.

plus, any kind of aquatic-based threat is inherently deadly anyway because humans literally can't breathe water. even in a best case scenario where you're prepped with scuba gear, all it takes is one unlucky fault in the system and you're just as hosed as if you weren't wearing 60 lbs of equipment. having ginormous monsters that deal Good damage on a hit is unnecessary overkill.

"A giant monster squid is loving up boats in Norway!" is a giant "So what?" moment unless the GM puts in more effort to tie the giant squid into one of the on-going conspiracies his or her players are presently fighting.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Bear in mind that 3e gave some people brain spiders so they think that if there aren't stats for a donkey, there are no donkeys in the universe of D&D.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!


I have yet to run into rules-as-physics in real life, but I tend to agree that it's bullshit. By the way, what did 3e do to make people insane like that?

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20





Halloween Jack posted:

Bear in mind that 3e gave some people brain spiders so they think that if there aren't stats for a donkey, there are no donkeys in the universe of D&D.

Don't forget the simultaneous beliefs of "if it doesn't have stats then it doesn't exist" and "if it has stats we're meant to kill it."

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Halloween Jack posted:

Bear in mind that 3e gave some people brain spiders so they think that if there aren't stats for a donkey, there are no donkeys in the universe of D&D.

What.

And of course it'd have to be statted up with full feats and everything, huh?

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

Night10194 posted:

What.

And of course it'd have to be statted up with full feats and everything, huh?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/donkey.htm


Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




If you need a friend, a donkey is a better listener than an epic-level fighter.

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

Halloween Jack posted:

If you need a friend, a donkey is a better listener than an epic-level fighter.
This checks out. D20 wins again.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


That's one little thing I really appreciate about WHFRP2e, having played stuff like a Questing Knight or other warrior classes: Those guys still generally get some mental advances (especially Willpower for fear saves and magic resistance) and a lot of what differentiates the various kinds of fighter is what non-combat skills you pick up. Like Knights having courtly and diplomatic abilities or highwaymen being good in the woods. The Champion and Slayer are closest to the whole D&D 'I am only fight' model but in return they are insanely good at fight, like absolutely crazy good at it.

It's really nice that experienced characters slowly accumulate little tricks and get good at stuff like spotting ambushes and trouble.

Then you go over to WH40kRP and lol the party's Guardsman is going to spend most of every serious combat encounter a gibbering wreck on the floor because they're about as bad at anything but 'use gun on man' (including any kind of WP saves) as D20 Fighters.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




JcDent posted:

I have yet to run into rules-as-physics in real life, but I tend to agree that it's bullshit. By the way, what did 3e do to make people insane like that?
Just doing this off the cuff because you asked, so my take is:

1. TSR and D&D were dead and buried in 2000, so there was a lot of goodwill for the new edition of D&D.

2. 3e did, admittedly, rationalize a lot of the baroque rules from AD&D. They did stuff the designers wanted to do, but were afraid to pull the trigger on, in AD&D2e/Black Box.

3. The big one: D20 was heavily evangelized as the last system you'll ever need. It was D&D "cleaned up" and turned into a universal system, ready to be ported into every other genre. That carries the implicit assumption that the difference between, say, Middle-Earth and Star Wars is how we measure the physical characteristics of an elven sword as opposed to a lightsaber, a troll as opposed to a rancor.

4. D20's marketing slogan, "reducing the demand for other systems to zero," was an implicit reaction against the popularity of story-focused, setting-focused games as D&D died. (Most of these 90s games were released with in-house systems that all superficially resembled each other. They were typically poorly playtested, and not nearly as narrative as the game promised, but that's a tangent.)

5. So D&D 3rd was, in a lot of ways, getting back to that pre-White Wolf set of assumptions where there's an iron wall between the roles of the GM and the players, and the players typically have agency exactly as far as their PCs' abilities are defined.

6. D&D 3e kicked off a boom of D20 games that dominated the business for several years. With that set of assumptions in play, it's not surprising that many people absorbed rules-as-physics as the only sensible way to approach tabletop games, and that a small minority of them went full on Time Cube with it.


One last, underestimated factor is that the edition wars between 3e and 4e were insane, and some people were just looking for the stupidest poo poo to ding 4e, without ever actually reading it. A few people probably convinced themselves that stupid cheap shots like "In 4e ice gets more slippery as you go up in level" until they went full-on Time Cube Brain Spiders about it.

I've always tried to avoid elevating elfgame drama to the level of real politics, but there is a striking similarity to the way people will come up with bizarre conspiracy theories about the other side when it would take less work to muster a real critique.

Freaking Crumbum
Apr 17, 2003

Too fuck to drunk




JcDent posted:

I have yet to run into rules-as-physics in real life, but I tend to agree that it's bullshit. By the way, what did 3e do to make people insane like that?

don't forget rules-as-physics-for-assholes, where the rules are absolutely inviolate laws of the physical universe, unless it directly contradicts some specific thing the DM is trying to do. bonus points if you get punished for attempting "a thing" which lies outside the boundaries of the rules, only for the DM to get away with doing the exact same "a thing" when it becomes necessary for them to do so.

no, you can't try and march your horses into the cavern with you because the opening is only 10 feet wide and horses are large creatures and they would spook at such a claustrophobic opening.

okay, the band of rogue knights is pursuing you across the bridge on horseback. they're riding in a formation 4 men across, and gaining ground fast. . . . no, I don't care that the bridge was previously stated to be only 10 feet wide, I just said the knights are riding horseback 4 men wide so that's how they're crossing the bridge.

Simian_Prime
Nov 6, 2011

When they passed out body parts in the comics today, I got Cathy's nose and Dick Tracy's private parts.

RedSnapper posted:

I like how the first scenario (you know, the one that's supposed to introduce new players to the setting) starts with the PCs loving off to present day Earth. Really shows the autor's faith in the system.
I hate how, because of this thing, I now want to somehow add GWAR to my ongoing Mage game..

You could use Towers Two, the setting that GWAR lead Dave Brockie co-wrote for Lamentations of the Flame Princess before he died.

But, y’know...

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Isn't Lamentations of the Flame Princess like 100% garbage?

Lurks With Wolves
Jan 14, 2013

At least I don't dance with them, right?


Night10194 posted:

Isn't Lamentations of the Flame Princess like 100% garbage?

No, the lore and setting info are complete garbage. The rules are just a dull but theoretically serviceable OSR game..

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




The ideas on alignment are kind of neat. The rules are a bland B/X D&D variant that I don't particularly like. All the weird gross poo poo is in the products that have been published under the LotFP label, like Carcosa and various modules fulla titty witches.

Battle Mad Ronin
Aug 26, 2017


Night10194 posted:

Isn't Lamentations of the Flame Princess like 100% garbage?

It is a streamlined retroclone with heavy metal aestethics, and a marketing strategy that masterfully plays on outrage.

I do not think you will ever get a more honest game than LotFP. Including, and not limited to “Yes, this game is garbage”. Getting mad at LotFP or calling it out on being in bad taste is 100% what you are meant to do, what appels to the audience and how the game is marketed. The game’s marketing strategy really is a work of such outstanding beauty it almost brings tears to my eyes. I remain convinced that James Raggi could have been the Don Draipier of the 21st century had he chosen to go into the ad buisness.

As an RPG rather than a social phenomenon the supplements are pretty hit and miss. There’s complete poo poo and there’s some of the best stuff I have ever read. Often in the same book.

Simian_Prime
Nov 6, 2011

When they passed out body parts in the comics today, I got Cathy's nose and Dick Tracy's private parts.

Battle Mad Ronin posted:

As an RPG rather than a social phenomenon the supplements are pretty hit and miss. There’s complete poo poo and there’s some of the best stuff I have ever read. Often in the same book.

I agree with this assessment. Sadly, “Towers Two” is in the “complete poo poo” category. It’s cribbed together by some vague notes left by Brockie, and was clearly published by Raggi because he knew a game made by a dead rock star would rake in cash.

Comrade Gorbash
Jul 12, 2011

My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.


Battle Mad Ronin posted:

I do not think you will ever get a more honest game than LotFP. Including, and not limited to “Yes, this game is garbage”. Getting mad at LotFP or calling it out on being in bad taste is 100% what you are meant to do, what appels to the audience and how the game is marketed. The game’s marketing strategy really is a work of such outstanding beauty it almost brings tears to my eyes. I remain convinced that James Raggi could have been the Don Draipier of the 21st century had he chosen to go into the ad buisness.
I submit that the shock-jock, "own the libs" approach may be on purpose, but is still fundamentally terrible.

Also when you scratch past the surface of "people are taking this too seriously," you quickly realize the "this" isn't the game so much as sexism, harassment, rape culture, racism, and the whole gamut of socially regressive bullshit.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



Comrade Gorbash posted:

I submit that the shock-jock, "own the libs" approach may be on purpose, but is still fundamentally terrible.

Also when you scratch past the surface of "people are taking this too seriously," you quickly realize the "this" isn't the game so much as sexism, harassment, rape culture, racism, and the whole gamut of socially regressive bullshit.

This. Absolutely this, the Shock-Jock 'humor' and 'Ironic Isms' is terrible because it implicitly endorse everything gross and terrible, that tries to shift the blame onto those upset by the socially regressive bullshit and make fun of them for finding that thing awful. And on top of it, it gives a wink to bigots that they can spew garbage without consequence.

Down With People
Oct 31, 2012

The child delights in violence.


Battle Mad Ronin posted:

I remain convinced that James Raggi could have been the Don Draipier of the 21st century had he chosen to go into the ad buisness.

I really think you're overestimating Raggi here, making poo poo books to rile up those darn SJWs isn't a unique marketing strategy let alone a genius one. Also I don't think making poo poo books is some masterful play on his part and more likely just a manifestation of the fact that he's a dumbass and genuinely likes his poo poo books.

Much like our good pal Venger, who brings us

Empire Of Satanis: Sweet dreams are made of these, who am I to disagree.



Dishaw really phones it in with Evil Below Us, which is neither as complex or as fun as the previous two adventures. Worst of all, it ends just as it starts to get interesting, leaving the GM high and dry with what to do next.

Evil Below Us is set after the events of Twilight of Paradise, an indeterminate amount of time after the end of festivities. Everything about Lon, the Spirit Folk and the usurpation of Satanis? Totally unrelated to this adventure. The PCs are walking the streets of Frier (I assume, Dishaw says 'K'Thana' but that's probably yet another typo) when they hear a spooooky clicking noise. Following it leads to an alley where there's a dead baby on the ground.

Now if you remember, the Vahs-vra Fiend race looks exactly like a dead baby, and that's exactly what this situation is. If your players remember that, or if they have a Vahs-vra in your party, they might guess that's what's up and totally ignore the plot hook. Even if they don't, evil demons remember? They might choose to walk past the baby corpse the same way I'd ignore a flattened cane toad on the road. But assuming they meddle with the Vahs-vra in any way:

quote:

If The PC’s touch the baby or speak to it, the Vahs-vra makes a clicking noise emanating from his mouth. After a few moments he speaks. “What are you doing? I was sleeping and now you have interrupted the dream I just paid good money for. Go back to Dr. Lochian at the Morbid Dreams Factory. Tell him to send the dream again and that the bill shall go to you. Now, good night!”

The Vahs-vra is named Mr. Frosht and he's been trying to get back to a dream where he murders a human woman to get a powerful Satanis-forged artefact. The book assume that the PCs will immediately do what he says and pay Lochian (a Dourge, for what it's worth) 10 zirkas to resend the dream. There's no talk of what happens if they kick the poo poo out of Frosht for his impudence or if they want to do literally anything else at all with their time and money. But assuming they do:

quote:

Mr. Frosht comes to pay them a visit. His little baby face is filled with brightly painted clown make up. He looks very alert and attentive with his bulging eyes looking at everything with a vulgar fascination. “Greetings, friends, how have you been? I didn’t have the opportunity to thank you for your assistance the other night. The dream turned out excellently. And surprise, surprise… you were in it. It all starts with you going to one of the archmagi from the Insidious Order of the Ninth Angle. Ask about the Black Grail, that should suffice. So long my friends.” And with that, Mr. Frosht leaves.

The archmagi don't just see anyone, but mentioning the Black Grail will get the PCs a meeting super easy. As you'd expect, the archmage the PCs meet immediately tells them it's their quest to get the Black Grail back. He suggests looking for it in The Cyclopean Towers Of The Sunken City, but if the Grail's so important and he's that sure of its location, how come they waited until some weirdo had a dream before they decided to do something about it?

quote:

The Cyclopean Towers of the Sunken City are home to the vile warlocks of the Slimy Ones. These warlocks preach of endless night from their towers, casting magic that radiates a new kind of sunlight, a blackish green sun that sheds light upward to the surface. The vile warlocks of the Slimy Ones never leave their Cyclopean Towers. They are tied to their slimy masters, the slime keeps them alive and is a vital part of their unutterable religion.

The warlocks are almost totally unrelated to anything in the adventure and neither help nor hinder the PCs. The first tower they come to has a living sarcophagus, made entirely of meat and gently breathing. That's actually kinda creepy! There's also a pair of Akturian Heads who immediately fly out and attack the PCs, probably getting turned into mincemeat for their troubles.

Inside the sarcophagus is a Fiend who the warlocks locked in there 900 years ago. As such, he is totally batshit now and attacks on sight. He's got a void sabre and the skill to use it and will probably put up a decent fight. When he's dead, the PCs will also find the holographic device inexplicably locked in with him.

quote:

Activating the holographic device yields this: a beautiful human girl, blonde, about 19 or 20 appears. She wears a black cloak, corset, and thigh-high boots. She says, “I am Elizabeth, and I have the Grail of Satanis. This relic from the Crimson God we despise so much, fell into our hands about a year ago. In the meantime, we have been studying it, looking for a weakness that would bring victory over the fiends and their Gods. This message is for our human agents who have been sent to help us. We are below the Sunken City and await our orders.” The message ends.

The inhabitants of the Sunken City, a 'dark skinned race of pygmies', are willing to lead the PCs down to the humans. And the adventure just...ends like that.

There's a bunch of stats here, half of them for characters who are otherwise not mentioned anywhere else in the book.

So that's it for Empire of Satanis! It's an extraordinarily bad RPG put together by a loser wannabe occultist with delusions of grandeur. And yet despite making every possible mistake you could make when promoting your game (sockpuppeting, publishing fake reviews, putting black magic curses on your critics), Dishaw is still out here being a dude in the industry. Personally, it's my favourite badgame if only because of the drama but I can also see why it's not as infamous as FATAL and Wraeththu in the annals of bad RPG products. Without knowing the drama, what you're left with sixty-odd pages of haphazardly-arranged, meandering word vomit. It's hard to read and for the most part just drastically unfun.

Anyway, if you're curious about EoS it's available as a free download from Dishaw's Lulu, alongside the one and only expansion Satanis Unbound and a book of art, occult theory and 'erotic poetry' that fills me with profound dread. As a compliment to Empire of Satanis I highly recommend kill puppies for satan, which is THE game to play if you want to live the real Venger Satanis experience.

FIN

Tune in next time when I cover actually good and interesting book Horror on the Orient Express!

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Down With People posted:

Tune in next time when I cover actually good and interesting book Horror on the Orient Express!

Oooooh, this is going to be fun!

Down With People
Oct 31, 2012

The child delights in violence.


Quick question, would it be better to save it for next year's thread or ?

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Post you bitch we have an archive for a reason (Also this thread probably won't terminate the moment 2018 starts)

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.



Halloween Jack posted:

If you need a friend, a donkey is a better listener than an epic-level fighter.

Wait a minute, is it time for a donkey talk?

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!



theironjef posted:

Wait a minute, is it time for a donkey talk?

Or is it time for talking donkeys?

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20





What if the talking donkey is the fighter?

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


ZorajitZorajit posted:

Hey, I'm guessing the answer is but is there any review moratorium for writing up a system?

Nope. I reviewed both Starfinger and Play Dirty 2 not that long after their respective releases.

It's more of a System Mastery call to focus on older games. Here, no quarter is asked - and none given.

Down With People posted:

Quick question, would it be better to save it for next year's thread or ?

People are good at answering their own questions today, but I suppose it's worth asking if people think we need a new thread anytime soon.

LaSquida
Nov 1, 2012

Just keep on walkin'.


Battle Mad Ronin posted:

It is a streamlined retroclone with heavy metal aestethics, and a marketing strategy that masterfully plays on outrage.

I do not think you will ever get a more honest game than LotFP. Including, and not limited to “Yes, this game is garbage”. Getting mad at LotFP or calling it out on being in bad taste is 100% what you are meant to do, what appels to the audience and how the game is marketed. The game’s marketing strategy really is a work of such outstanding beauty it almost brings tears to my eyes. I remain convinced that James Raggi could have been the Don Draipier of the 21st century had he chosen to go into the ad buisness.

As an RPG rather than a social phenomenon the supplements are pretty hit and miss. There’s complete poo poo and there’s some of the best stuff I have ever read. Often in the same book.

I really disagree, because it also has supplements lie Qelong and Scenic Dunnsmouth, which have horrific elements but presented in a "this is a horrific setting" rather than "disgust and awe" matter.

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



The other thing that drove people bananas was the OSR revolution wherein one could make any setting they wanted as long as they nominally acknowledged the existence of who owned the D&D 3.0 rules. This started...well on paper it started an indie revolution where anyone with an idea could grab d20 and run giggling into the hills to start making a family out of it. In execution the result was a lot of heartbreakers and the tabletop equivalent of the Video Game Crash of 83 where instead of people repeatedly releasing PacMan they kept releasing FANTASY GAME. A lot of them ended up rotting on the shelves and a lot of nascent indie companies died of starvation/money deprivation especially because this was in early days of Web 2.0 in regards to sharing content online and they had to print physical books to sell to stores that then didn't move product. And because old habits die hard, a lot of the people who got elbow-deep into 3.0's guts never really forgot just how well they knew the rules of 3.0 because of what they learned from "game design" (really cargo cult design).

Like I don't want to go back to the AAH well but RPO got their start homebrewing 3.0 rules for Not Fallout and when they OSR came out...they realized they could legally sell their homebrews because they cut their teeth on d20. People wanted to buy Not Fallout/Darwin's World because A: they know d20 and B: they can now purchase a product and save themselves the trouble of beating d20 into submission to craft the setting they want. Then the market is over-saturated with many more d20 products, they don't keep the players' and GMs' attentions because they're unwieldy messes and sales drop off. The companies lucky enough to cultivate a fanbase ride that sucker into the dirt by pumping out more and more products but there's loss of interest mixed with the merciless and unyielding march of time and new poo poo existing. The people adamant about the benefits of 3.0/3.5 are offended by the insinuations of what WOTC says IRT 4e and these are people who have really good memories intrinsically bound to a not-so-great product and well when someone insults your rose-colored nostalgia, you get reactionary.

I guess fundamentally this also ties into "learning rules-are-physics by proxy" but again the people who went frothingly mad were people who had an intimate knowledge of the system and when you learn poo poo at certain ages it gets real hard to unlearn it, it's a whole drat thing.

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


Hostile V posted:

The other thing that drove people bananas was the OSR revolution wherein one could make any setting they wanted as long as they nominally acknowledged the existence of who owned the D&D 3.0 rules. This started...well on paper it started an indie revolution where anyone with an idea could grab d20 and run giggling into the hills to start making a family out of it.

I think you're mixing up the d20 bubble and the OSR movement there. OSR is separate from d20 D&D stuff and focused on OD&D, the various stripes of Basic, and AD&D 1/2e. Not to say a lot of OSR people don't do the same shameful things with the D20, but to the older rulesets, because that does totally happen.

e- Also, I didn't get to say this at the time, but your write up of Abandon All Hope was really cool. I really don't get how that game was expected to be played, though. Not just as an ongoing adventure, but how it expected players to approach any encounter. Even a PC that was a fine-tuned optimization machine looked like they'd get murdered because nothing about the statted-up enemies was balanced or fair... unless you expected each character to start with a crate of grenades they could drop in front of a demon or robot and detonate from a distance. Like, if you're going to present yourself as being intelligent connoisseurs of 3e D&D rules, how could you mange to gently caress up the monster design even worse than the first two Monster Manuals?

Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Dec 13, 2017

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





Down With People posted:

Quick question, would it be better to save it for next year's thread or ?
You have shamed me to get back on the horse, sir.

As to whether or not we need a new thread, I'm not convinced we do; what would the benefit be?

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


Eventually the thread will just start breaking due to its size and radium coding, but this thread is almost two years old and hasn't cracked 1k pages so we're probably safe for a while yet

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



Nuns with Guns posted:

I think you're mixing up the d20 bubble and the OSR movement there. OSR is separate from d20 D&D stuff and focused on OD&D, the various stripes of Basic, and AD&D 1/2e. Not to say a lot of OSR people don't do the same shameful things with the D20, but to the older rulesets, because that does totally happen.

e- Also, I didn't get to say this at the time, but your write up of Abandon All Hope was really cool. I really don't get how that game was expected to be played, though. Not just as an ongoing adventure, but how it expected players to approach any encounter. Even a PC that was a fine-tuned optimization machine looked like they'd get murdered because nothing about the statted-up enemies was balanced or fair... unless you expected each character to start with a crate of grenades they could drop in front of a demon or robot and detonate from a distance. Like, if you're going to present yourself as being intelligent connoisseurs of 3e D&D rules, how could you mange to gently caress up the monster design even worse than the first two Monster Manuals?
You are correct! I am dumb as hell! I am in fact mixing up the OGL with the OSR! Too many acronyms and there's light OSR chat going on.

Also thank you and pfft god only knows, pretty much every review I read was just "combat seems kinda drat lethal" but I've made my views pretty clear in regards to Intelligent Monster Design. The justification in reviews at the time was pretty much "this is tonally consistent with the setting and appropriate" so I guess you were just supposed to go forth and then die.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


If there were extensive options for dealing with demons without combat and combat was a sort of emergency/last resort thing, where you had a mechanical way to drive the thing back a bit so you could run and actually killing it was the hard/impossible option, I'd be perfectly okay with the demons being lethal. The problem was they were turbo-lethal but the game didn't give you other options for interacting with them.

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Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


I could get making the monsters ultra deadly to set a tone (but why bother treating them as combat enemies at all when being escape-or-die fail conditions would get the whole miserable affair over with sooner?)

Then the adventures treat every enemy as a D&D combat encounter you're expected to beat in order to advance/nab loot, and you start seeing how approaching genres and settings with rules designed for high fantasy dungeon crawling was a terrible idea that poisoned the well for a long, long time.

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