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Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



When you play games with other people you have to accept the social contract from the outset, which includes things like 'actions have consequences' - in fact, this is one of the core rules of every MUSH I've played on, because the games are so heavily based in player consent that you need to have something there to go 'but you can't just refuse to consent to the consquences of your actions.'

If you are unwilling to accept that social contracts exist or that people expect your actions to have consequences, I suggest finding a group that will accept your version of the social contract rather than just going on about ideaspace and postmodernism. You clearly don't have experience with MUSHing, so to sum up: this isn't about being too silly and playful, it is about breaking the accepted social contract and being an rear end in a top hat.

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SpookBus
Aug 22, 2015


Alien Rope Burn posted:

The reason I brought up Princess is not because of grimdark, but more on the tendency to heavily define the magical girl condition like an entry from The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe.

This is very true, in a game about Magical Girls, I'd just accept very general answers with very little in the way of a deep explanation, and some questions just left alone and played as it works best for each group. As entertaining as Jojo's Bizarre Adventure style over-explanation of a power can be, too much detail can really bog things down.



Count Chocula posted:

In a silly cartoon universe, you can have people changing forms constantly. Like in Looney Tunes or Plastic Man. And 'consistency' is only forced on us because we live in a physical world. If you're just making stuff up in a MUD or bullshitting in a game with friends, why wouldn't you change things around?

The major issue with the MUDs thing is that no one else is playing that way it seems, there's nothing inherently wrong with playing an RP out with low continuity, as long as everyone else is playing along. It's less a matter of "she ignores the previous session in RP!" and more that she's playing an entirely different game and refuses to clue in, or play in a fitting way to the rest of the group.


edit: Welp, beaten to it in a much clearer way!

SpookBus fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Mar 7, 2016

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


Fallen Rib

Count Chocula posted:

Sure, but they still exist in Ideaspace. 'Actions' only have 'consequences' because we're forced to obey the rules of a physical world. In the imaginative world we can ignore or suspend that rule. But so many RPGs seem to go in the opposite direction, adding MORE rules, until you get things like TORG turning what should be a post-modern play of genres into a mesh of interlocking systems, or that magical girl game turning stylistic choices from cartoons into rules.

WGA sucks, but it doesn't suck because it's too silly and playful. If the authors want a world where form and personality ar mutable, more power to them.

You are drastically misunderstanding the point. This has nothing to do with rules. If your character attacks mine in one scene, then turns around and wants to act like nothing bad happened in the next, and your character isn't explicitly possessed or has multiple personalities or something, then you shouldn't act confused or upset if I decide that my character isn't going to want to hang out with someone who tried to hurt them. This has nothing to do with mechanics or lack thereof and I have no earthly idea what point you're trying to argue.

Ningyou
Aug 14, 2005

we aaaaare
not your kind of pearls
you seem kind of pho~ny
everything's a liiiiie

we aaaare
not your kind of pearls
something in your make~up
don't see eye to e~y~e


do you know what else is forced on us in a physical world

Bad Posting

e: postmodernism means whatever we want it to mean

Ningyou fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Mar 7, 2016

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



and the same goes for tabletop games unless they're specifically designated as one-shots. It's a bit like watching a production of MacBeth, and having Duncan walk back in to join his son in battle without anyone asking why the dead guy is back.

Unless stated otherwise, when you got a persistent setting - and you play by the rules and actions, cause and effect is expected unless *otherwise explicitly stated*. So in this case, if I was Circe, I wouldn't be playing chess with the girl who nearly killed me by turning me into a cigarette.

And that's the huge problem with Lucinda's characterization, she does horrific things on a daily basis, but everyone doesn't remember or forgives her too easily with no good reason.

I'm pretty sure Post-Modernism doesn't mean "Actions have no consequences whatsoever"

Robindaybird fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Mar 7, 2016

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


Fallen Rib

And the reason I even brought up the MUD/Mush thing is because Lucinda is in fact Abby Soto's own character she plays in those (as if the transforming and smoking don't make that obvious enough) and so this plus her attitude regarding persistent characterization and consequences helps explain why WGA Lucinda gets to do all this horrible poo poo and everyone still wants to hang out with her, because that's how Abby Soto thinks RPGs work.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





To forcibly bring this back on the rails, how is this sort of thing handled in TOON? In fact has anyone ever done a writeup or anything for Toon? It seems from what I remember to have had interesting precursors of some of the things like FATE, as well as being ridiculous for being a game in which you were all cartoon characters.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



Nessus posted:

To forcibly bring this back on the rails, how is this sort of thing handled in TOON? In fact has anyone ever done a writeup or anything for Toon? It seems from what I remember to have had interesting precursors of some of the things like FATE, as well as being ridiculous for being a game in which you were all cartoon characters.

iirc, no one dies in TOON - they just 'fall down' until the next scene, and it's explicitly treated as exaggerated non-lethal violence, the problem with WGA is it tries for the cartoon-y feel, but makes note people do go insane or die because of the actions.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

I can't believe I'm actually typing this, but would smoking Circe actually kill her? I'm assuming that the mundanes are ash, but her reaction to returning to human form with her hips turned into one of RPGpundit's siglines seems more 'ugh! you little bitch!' than 'OH MY GOD WHERE'S THE REST OF ME?!'

The chessboard thing is probably just a cheap metaphor for carefully crafted antagonism, made cheaper by the fact there's clearly nothing careful about it.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


Fallen Rib

Robindaybird posted:

iirc, no one dies in TOON - they just 'fall down' until the next scene, and it's explicitly treated as exaggerated non-lethal violence, the problem with WGA is it tries for the cartoon-y feel, but makes note people do go insane or die because of the actions.

Also Toon doesn't reek of being someone's fetishbait.

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

Robindaybird posted:

iirc, no one dies in TOON - they just 'fall down' until the next scene, and it's explicitly treated as exaggerated non-lethal violence, the problem with WGA is it tries for the cartoon-y feel, but makes note people do go insane or die because of the actions.
Yeah, you Fall Down, which means you are out of the game for three (real time) minutes, then you get back up and rejoin the action (with your fur still singed from that dynamite that blew up under you, or popping your head back into shape after that anvil got dropped on it, or whatever excuse you can come up with for re-entering the story).

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


I remember a player on a Marvel Comics MUSH that was like that, she'd do insanely questionable poo poo and then next scene would be like "well I'm evil why don't you just accept that" like it was just a natural condition and not, say, abuse. She'd throw terrible tantrums if you called her out on it, and was kind of obsessed with murder and transformation and- huh.

Nahhh.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Mors Rattus posted:

You know what I want out of earnest magical girls? Fuckin' court politics.

I'd imagine it's so you can have magical girl vs magical girl brawls without making either side evil or genuinely wrong. From my [extremely] limited understanding of the genre, it's fairly typical for two to come into conflict over a guy or how to solve a particular problem, level half a city block in the battle, and go out for ice cream.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



You don't actually see that many brawls. Fights, yeah, but they tend to involve more shouting and glaring and swearing never to speak to each other again. Then we learn a Valuable Lesson about Friendship and they get back together. Violence is usually reserved for actual enemies.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


Alien Rope Burn posted:

I remember a player on a Marvel Comics MUSH that was like that, she'd do insanely questionable poo poo and then next scene would be like "well I'm evil why don't you just accept that" like it was just a natural condition and not, say, abuse. She'd throw terrible tantrums if you called her out on it, and was kind of obsessed with murder and transformation and- huh.

Nahhh.

Sounds like how the X-Men treat Magneto, minus the transformations (that's more Mr Sinister).

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





WERE THEY RIGHT?

Lucinda: no
Magneto: yes

I rest my case.

senrath
Nov 3, 2009

Look Professor, a destruct switch!




Alien Rope Burn posted:

I remember a player on a Marvel Comics MUSH that was like that, she'd do insanely questionable poo poo and then next scene would be like "well I'm evil why don't you just accept that" like it was just a natural condition and not, say, abuse. She'd throw terrible tantrums if you called her out on it, and was kind of obsessed with murder and transformation and- huh.

Nahhh.

Nahhh is probably right. I've met a small handful of people that fit that description in various RPG circles over time. I'm really wishing I hadn't, actually.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008



Alien Rope Burn posted:

I remember a player on a Marvel Comics MUSH that was like that, she'd do insanely questionable poo poo and then next scene would be like "well I'm evil why don't you just accept that" like it was just a natural condition and not, say, abuse. She'd throw terrible tantrums if you called her out on it, and was kind of obsessed with murder and transformation and- huh.

Nahhh.

I have a friend who's still active in MUSH roleplay circles, and she always described people like that as not looking at the game as "we are all in this story", but as "you are in my story". They tend to end up getting serially banned from various communities because they just end up pissing everyone else off.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Count Chocula posted:

Sounds like how the X-Men treat Magneto, minus the transformations (that's more Mr Sinister).

Well, Magneto is more a victim of duelling writers than anything else, so expecting him to remain consistent when he's constantly being de-aged, re-aged, cloned, driven mad, impersonated, mind controlled, or just plain hopped up on sentient drugs is a bit much. A character with over forty years of comics with wildly varying quality is a slightly different situation.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

senrath posted:

Nahhh is probably right. I've met a small handful of people that fit that description in various RPG circles over time. I'm really wishing I hadn't, actually.

Likewise, I can think of a few different people I've met in MU* that fit that kink and behavior.

grassy gnoll
Aug 27, 2006

The pawsting business is tough work.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Well, Magneto is more a victim of duelling writers than anything else, so expecting him to remain consistent when he's constantly being de-aged, re-aged, cloned, driven mad, impersonated, mind controlled, or just plain hopped up on sentient drugs is a bit much. A character with over forty years of comics with wildly varying quality is a slightly different situation.

God help us if Soto and Claremont ever teamed up.

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Bieeardo posted:

I can't believe I'm actually typing this, but would smoking Circe actually kill her? I'm assuming that the mundanes are ash, but her reaction to returning to human form with her hips turned into one of RPGpundit's siglines seems more 'ugh! you little bitch!' than 'OH MY GOD WHERE'S THE REST OF ME?!'
If I remember the dialogue in the picture posted there was something about "wait why can't I feel my legs", indicating she hadn't realized the full extent of what happened to her in that panel.

I'm not going back to check.

Count Chocula
Dec 25, 2011

WE HAVE TO CONTROL OUR ENVIRONMENT
IF YOU SEE ME POSTING OUTSIDE OF THE AUSPOL THREAD PLEASE TELL ME THAT I'M MISSED AND TO START POSTING AGAIN


Alien Rope Burn posted:

Well, Magneto is more a victim of duelling writers than anything else, so expecting him to remain consistent when he's constantly being de-aged, re-aged, cloned, driven mad, impersonated, mind controlled, or just plain hopped up on sentient drugs is a bit much. A character with over forty years of comics with wildly varying quality is a slightly different situation.

I specifically meant how he'll try and kill the X-Men, then play an ominous game of chess vs Xavier a few hours later.!

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.



Time for some of that Afterthought, people. This is the one where we answer the real question, the question that's only been answered by every roleplaying game ever made: What is a roleplaying game?

Astus
Nov 11, 2008


I have a bad habit of constantly buying new rpgs despite not having played most of them, so rather than just let them collect dust, I thought I'd review some that I find interesting.



Fantaji Universal RPG Part 1: Background and Basic Overview

Originally called Mazaki no Fantaji, Anthropos Games ran a Kickstarter for their game they described as:

quote:

A cinematic Tabletop RPG inspired by the most gripping JRPGs and rowdy anime, using qualitative stats and a unique, tile-based system.

It only raised about half of the $16,000 they wanted. So they changed the name to just Fantaji, billed it as more of a universal system than they had before, and lowered to the goal to just $3,400. This time the Kickstarter was successful. So, how is the game? Well, let's let Anthropos Games explain it:

quote:

The system is crazy versatile, yes, but how so? Glad you asked! Players "play to" qualitative character Traits and shared Themes to add dice to their pool, banking small successes on early turns to build "Drama" that carries over to future rolls. When you feel like making an attack, you add up your Drama and play to more Traits and Themes to roll against your opponent. The defender does the same, and high numbers win. Every die of mine that beats your highest counts as a success.

"Playing to" Traits and Themes affords open-ended creativity, while deciding how to spend your successes after a winning roll is all strategy. Powers are effect-based, and each roll opens up dozens of options. Oftentimes, shilling out damage is the least of your concerns, and different choices can cause Status Effects, deploy penalties, summon familiars, etc.  

To sap your enemies' escalating Drama, build new qualitative conditions on the fly. Flip over a table, light a fire, jump for cover, scale a wall, reload a weapon, give someone a wedgee. Be creative! Whatever you decide is written on an index card and placed on the table, instantly becoming part of the mechanics of the scene. The system constantly dips back and forth between creative, open-ended narrative and sharp, mechanical tactics.  

We stumbled upon something that at first surprised us but then got us very excited: Fantaji doesn't reward role-playing. It is role-playing. 

Try to ignore that last part, the game has an annoying tendency to act like it is going to blow your mind and that it is, in their words, the “best kept secret in the biggest gaming and anime conventions”. But once you get past the irritating attempts to get you to buy the book (which for some reason continue while you are actually reading the book), the Fantaji system itself is actually kinda cool, and can handle a large variety of situations. Also interesting is how everything is built around four types of "tiles": Character tiles, for the PC's and any recurring nemesis; Obstacles, for everything that gets in the way of the PC's, whether that's mooks, dragons, a locked door, or trying to land on a jet while free-falling; Themes, which cover the overall mood of the story during a specific scene; and Conditions, which are narrative facts that can be used to "trip up" an opponent, or could be used against the players.

In the next part, I'll go through the introduction of the book, and explain a bit more of how this system actually works.

LatwPIAT
Jun 6, 2011

Do I need a title?

Bieeardo posted:

I can't believe I'm actually typing this, but would smoking Circe actually kill her? I'm assuming that the mundanes are ash, but her reaction to returning to human form with her hips turned into one of RPGpundit's siglines seems more 'ugh! you little bitch!' than 'OH MY GOD WHERE'S THE REST OF ME?!'

Well, the Abby Soto game Bellum Maga has actual rules for what happens when you turn someone into a cigarette and smoke them, if you're really curious...

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



Adnachiel posted:


There are a couple of changes to mundane skills. “Fix-Electronic”, “Fix-Mechanical”, “Garden”, “Hear”, and “Look” are gone. “Build/Repair”, “Charm”, “Hiding” (renamed from “Hide”), “Investigate”, “Languages”, and “Riding” are new. Some skills have also had tiny tweaks to their stat bonuses. Most of these come in the form of clarifying that any skill that gives a bonus to stat gives it at a rate of 1 for every 3 ranks in the skill.

Build/Repair: Ranks in this skill let you build and repair loving EVERYTHING; from electronics to houses to planes to whatever that doesn’t involve magic and isn’t a computer. (Those are covered under the Computer skill.) Characters can take a specialization in this that gives them a +1 to build and repair that specific type of thing while getting a -1 to all other things. Thankfully, the wording makes this out to be an optional thing. So feel free to not use it and be an omnicrafter.
I know you're explicitly saying "not involving magic" for craft/repair but now I'm just imagining someone lawyering the definition of "craft" or "repair" to do something like fix an injured pet or in fact build a new dog or something outlandish and intentionally silly.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



Hostile V posted:

I know you're explicitly saying "not involving magic" for craft/repair but now I'm just imagining someone lawyering the definition of "craft" or "repair" to do something like fix an injured pet or in fact build a new dog or something outlandish and intentionally silly.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if WGA had bizarrely specific rules rules for Cronenberg-ing something.

Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.


Barudak posted:

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if WGA had bizarrely specific rules rules for Cronenberg-ing something.

That would require self-awareness.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.



Barudak posted:

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if WGA had bizarrely specific rules rules for Cronenberg-ing something.

It would be weirder if it didn't.

Man I'm glad to hear the version we reviewed has been quietly scoured off the internet. It was weirdly light on Lucinda being a horrorshow of someone's half-closeted fetishes.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.






Grimey Drawer

Evil Mastermind posted:


[*]Skutharka is the three-meter tall wolf-man that controls Singapore. Formerly close to the bottom of the Nightmare power structure, his fascination with Core Earth's "cutthroat corporate culture" has combined with his fascination of Thratchen's techno-horror nature and resulted in a meteoric rise in power. This is because, instead of utilizing "normal" methods, Skutharka has begun twisting "mundane" Core Earth technologies into new sources of fear that flourish in Core Earth's urban environments. He's set up shop at the top of one of the largest business skyscrapers in the city, where he "plays businessman" like a kid would, doing things like grabbing dead phones and having fake business conversations into them.


I love this.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015


Cythereal posted:

I'd imagine it's so you can have magical girl vs magical girl brawls without making either side evil or genuinely wrong. From my [extremely] limited understanding of the genre, it's fairly typical for two to come into conflict over a guy or how to solve a particular problem, level half a city block in the battle, and go out for ice cream.

They don't really do that unless one of them is actually evil at that point. Or at least mind-controlled. Or guarding space-time.

(Maybe except for Madoka again, but those cases mostly involve girls that are either Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil. Or one of them is introduced as a psychopath before it turns out she is just obsessed with food.)

And the correct answer to how magical girls resolve their arguments is not "Star Wars prequel senate stuff", but either "karaoke", "dance-off" or "spell that applies fighting game rules to the area".

Mitama
Feb 28, 2011




Oh neat, a Fantaji review.

I like the system a lot; it follows a lot of the mindset that FATE is built on, but in a way that reads a lot more satisfying to me mechanically. But no one really knows the game so I haven't tried it out myself.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


Fallen Rib

TurninTrix posted:

Oh neat, a Fantaji review.

I like the system a lot; it follows a lot of the mindset that FATE is built on, but in a way that reads a lot more satisfying to me mechanically. But no one really knows the game so I haven't tried it out myself.

I have literally never heard of this game until now so I'm actually interested to see where this goes, hyperbolic self-promotion aside.

Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.


Astus posted:


Fantaji Universal RPG Part 1: Background and Basic Overview

I think they do the advertising pitch in the beginning of the book because you see those pages in the quick and full preview on DTRPG.

Astus
Nov 11, 2008


Covok posted:

I think they do the advertising pitch in the beginning of the book because you see those pages in the quick and full preview on DTRPG.

I'll mention it in the next part, but I am completely fine with that advertisement pitch, especially since they outright say it is there to sell you on the book. But that isn't going to be the last time they try to sell you on how great Fantaji is. There is a sidebar on page 68, which is not in the preview, that is still written as an advertisement, and actually ends with them saying "Wow." as if this game is just completely mind-blowing.

Anthropos Games do not understand how to get people to buy their product.

Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.


Astus posted:

I'll mention it in the next part, but I am completely fine with that advertisement pitch, especially since they outright say it is there to sell you on the book. But that isn't going to be the last time they try to sell you on how great Fantaji is. There is a sidebar on page 68, which is not in the preview, that is still written as an advertisement, and actually ends with them saying "Wow." as if this game is just completely mind-blowing.

Anthropos Games do not understand how to get people to buy their product.

Maybe they thought this would get people who flip through it on a bookshelf to buy it.

I feel stupider having said that even though I might be right.

Anyway, I've had this book sitting on my hard drive for a while. Been interested in it, but never got around to reading it.

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



Mors Rattus posted:

You don't actually see that many brawls. Fights, yeah, but they tend to involve more shouting and glaring and swearing never to speak to each other again. Then we learn a Valuable Lesson about Friendship and they get back together. Violence is usually reserved for actual enemies.

Except for, say, the second season of Nanoha.

hyphz
Aug 5, 2003




Kai Tave posted:

And the reason I even brought up the MUD/Mush thing is because Lucinda is in fact Abby Soto's own character she plays in those (as if the transforming and smoking don't make that obvious enough) and so this plus her attitude regarding persistent characterization and consequences helps explain why WGA Lucinda gets to do all this horrible poo poo and everyone still wants to hang out with her, because that's how Abby Soto thinks RPGs work.

I guess she's an ERP dominatrix? I seem to recall her attitude being that if your character argues with hers, that's because you want to play out an argument. If you don't think that's fun to play, don't play it, don't be forced to play it by "consequences". Which is.. Well, odd.

Wonder if she ever played Second Life.. She'd probably explode..

By the way, I thought Book of Shadows was officially cancelled and replaced with "Respelled and a bunch of supplements that cover the stuff that was going to be in one huge book."

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Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


theironjef posted:

Time for some of that Afterthought, people. This is the one where we answer the real question, the question that's only been answered by every roleplaying game ever made: What is a roleplaying game?

P.B. Crisps. We are aligned.

Man, bringing up that topic made me think my question was going to be addressed, but I'm guessing jef isn't checking his PMs. I mean, that's what's happening, right?

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