Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




Isn't there a Forgemaster DW skill that was the do everything tech/crafting skill before they admitted that's what tech use should have been in the first place?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


wiegieman posted:

Isn't there a Forgemaster DW skill that was the do everything tech/crafting skill before they admitted that's what tech use should have been in the first place?

Yes, they also specifically get a 'what Tech Use should be' skill, and get it to +20 cheaply.

Wrestlepig
Feb 25, 2011

my mum says im cool



Toilet Rascal

Night10194 posted:

Also, I didn't have space to go into it enough in the actual post, but the reason 'Just make a Sister of Battle or Inquisitor!' doesn't work for Deathwatch is coming next chapter

That’s a real shame considering on the table they’re basically the same but worse at melee and are more into flamethrowers

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


rumble in the bunghole posted:

That’s a real shame considering on the table they’re basically the same but worse at melee and are more into flamethrowers

In general the gulf of ability between what's just S3/T3 on TT and S4/T4 on TT is loving huge in 40kRP, because they kind of took it as design law that, because the stats are much more tightly controlled in 40k the TT game, an extra point of S or T on TT represents an entirely different tier of ability rather than a slight improvement. If that makes sense. Hence the addition of Unnaturals as a system in the first place.

I have no idea where they got the idea that Marine boltguns should be better than human Heavy Bolters, though.

NGDBSS
Dec 30, 2009








For all its faults at least the Marine vs. human dichotomy is notably reduced in Black Crusade, since all the top-tier gear either doesn't require you to be a Marine or is otherwise equal-opportunity and any gaps in offensive/defensive stats can largely be bridged by gear. The effect is that only at chargen will Marines be the undisputed kings of combat before the humans get cool toys like Unnaturals or the ability to use heavy guns from implants.

Edit: Basically what I'm saying is that Black Crusade encourages everyone to get in on the powergaming action.

NGDBSS fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Mar 27, 2018

Feinne
Oct 9, 2007

When you fall, get right back up again.


I'd imagine Deathwatch bosses are things on the scale of like a Greater Daemon/Hive Tyrant or something yeah? Because it does need to be said the biggest gulf in power is that a normal human in tabletop with toughness three dies in a single hit from something like that regardless of wounds because they're Strength 6+ and double their Toughness whereas only the scariest of fuckers like say a Carnifex will always kill a Marine in one hit (don't get hit by a Carnifex they can tear open a Land Raider like it's a tin can).

Or for example consider just melee combat against enemies notable for such things. Sisters of Battle is probably the only Imperial force I'd play because they're cool ladies with power armor and lots of flamethrowers but yeah I wouldn't want to see ANYTHING in their army try and fight in CC with say Genestealers or Rude Eldar Dudes of various sorts.

Feinne fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Mar 27, 2018

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


There's also all kinds of stuff like Legacy Weapons that grow in power as you grow in legend and let you butcher hundreds. When I ran BC, our Renegade was regularly outkilling the party's hired Space Marine Chosen solely because he was dedicated to Khorne and incredibly good with his Legacy Chainsword and his Chain Axe.

And yes, bosses are stuff like Greater Demons, Hive Tyrants, and, uh, Tau Mecha. The Carnifex is specifically a poor WS but don't get hit by it or you will die giant living tank.

E: The Dagon Overlord, the most powerful variant Hive Tyrant you can run into, has 180 Wounds in a system where 'badass' enemies originally had 30. And DR 28, only 10 of which is punchable armor. Also has 81% WS and hits like a truck while being a powerful wizard. That's the kind of thing you fight as bosses.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Mar 27, 2018

Feinne
Oct 9, 2007

When you fall, get right back up again.


Night10194 posted:

There's also all kinds of stuff like Legacy Weapons that grow in power as you grow in legend and let you butcher hundreds. When I ran BC, our Renegade was regularly outkilling the party's hired Space Marine Chosen solely because he was dedicated to Khorne and incredibly good with his Legacy Chainsword and his Chain Axe.

And yes, bosses are stuff like Greater Demons, Hive Tyrants, and, uh, Tau Mecha. The Carnifex is specifically a poor WS but don't get hit by it or you will die giant living tank.

Yeah the cheapest Carnifex I could buy was always the best investment because people look at it and freak the gently caress out even though they're kinda poo poo at anything but killing tanks thanks to their decidedly average WS so they'd shoot at it well out of proportion with its impact on the table or points cost. It'd generally at least buy the turn it took to get Gaunts with Leaping and Raveners safely stuck in.

EDIT: Of course if you want to troll Deathwatch characters make them fight Tyrant Guards, which are Tyranids made out of Space Marine genomes that are Peak Heresy to even look at closely since it's PAINFULLY obvious that they've got poo poo like a repurposed Black Carapace.

Feinne fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Mar 27, 2018

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


The funny thing is (again, I didn't get to their add-on books) Sisters are actually crazily powerful for DH, with the book telling you to make them act like angry, vicious assholes to make them 'balance' (ugh). They get unique Faith powers they can spend Fate on to temporarily grant Unnaturals and perform Miracles, and they still get power armor and bolters and infernos/meltas eventually.

E: They start with the power armor but can't buy/choose new gear and never get money. They have to hit Rank 4 before they're determined to have proven themselves enough to wear a helmet.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Mar 27, 2018

Feinne
Oct 9, 2007

When you fall, get right back up again.


Night10194 posted:

The funny thing is (again, I didn't get to their add-on books) Sisters are actually crazily powerful for DH, with the book telling you to make them act like angry, vicious assholes to make them 'balance' (ugh). They get unique Faith powers they can spend Fate on to temporarily grant Unnaturals and perform Miracles, and they still get power armor and bolters and infernos/meltas eventually.

E: They start with the power armor but can't buy/choose new gear and never get money. They have to hit Rank 4 before they're determined to have proven themselves enough to wear a helmet.

I literally wish Space Marines didn't exist and the Sisters were the Imperium's elite troops, because they have effectively the same equipment as you'd expect from elite troops while actually having some flavor that's not 'generically best at everything ayran supermen'.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Feinne posted:

I literally wish Space Marines didn't exist and the Sisters were the Imperium's elite troops, because they have effectively the same equipment as you'd expect from elite troops while actually having some flavor that's not 'generically best at everything ayran supermen'.

Some Marine chapters and Legions do have interesting personalities and believable flaws, but they're not easy to write and doubly so when they have to interact with normal humans. But GW is very shy about letting Marines be portrayed as human and flawed in media.

Tibalt
May 14, 2017

What, drawn, and talk of peace! I hate the word, As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee


They're also about the laziest, most boring way you could handle the concept "What if the Thomas Malory Knights of the Round Table were more augmented that J.C. Denton".

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



Fluffwise, the Sisters faith powers scale all the way up. A Living Saint is absolutely a match for a Deathwatch marine.

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Comrade Gorbash posted:

Yeah, that's not inspired by SPC. Both Paranoia and SPC are taking inspiration from the same sources, which is actual releases of government documents. The primary documents are the more familiar black bars over lines of text, but if you needed to quote the document, say in your newspaper, especially before computers made typography massively easier the standard was to put REDACTED (or [REDACTED] to make it stand out more clearly).
I don't think the Shark Punching Center does much redaction, black bar or otherwise.

Deptfordx
Dec 23, 2013



So a vanilla marine has DR 16, 8 points of armour and 8 points of toughness.

Just how high can you push a techmarine if you go all in with all the supplements and skills?

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Deptfordx posted:

So a vanilla marine has DR 16, 8 points of armour and 8 points of toughness.

Just how high can you push a techmarine if you go all in with all the supplements and skills?

Assuming a max Toughness roll, Armor Monger, Artificer Armor, a Machinator Array, and buying all their Toughness advances, I believe they can get to 16 Toughness Bonus, plus if you go all in on Armor histories that buff AV and somehow get Master Crafted for your Artificer Armor, you can hit AV 22. So DR 38. If you were from a Chapter with +5 Toughness and somehow found a way to squeeze another 5 in there with Deeds or Chapter Trappings or whatever (I'm not entirely sure you can) you'd hit 40, which is on par with one of the front facings on a tank. Both are better armored than a PC who actually becomes a goddamn Dreadnought, by about 1-3 points.

Also, checking that over led me to check out the Dreadnought and other sections in Rites of Battle and remember the Best NPC, Brother Goremann the Elder. Goremann is a Dreadnought and has been such for a long time, and is honored and kept around for his sage advice, with his commanders rarely sending him into combat for fear of losing him. His advice will always, thus, trend towards 'ALSO THIS MISSION COULD REALLY DO WITH A DREADNOUGHT, WINK WINK' and his adventure seed has him either trying to convince the PCs to requisition his assistance so he can do war again and get outside, or him contriving a way to get drop-podded or teleported into the PCs' mission without them knowing he's coming, because he thinks the young 'uns will need the help. Especially if it's a mission fundamentally unsuited for a Dreadnought.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Mar 27, 2018

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Kinda funnily fitting that Techmarines are beasts, since they pretty much are on the tabletop as well, having access to a set of additional powerful weapons on robot arms, a personal Servitor crew with heavy weapons and possibly extra fancy toys.

Comrade Gorbash
Jul 12, 2011

My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.


Inescapable Duck posted:

Kinda funnily fitting that Techmarines are beasts, since they pretty much are on the tabletop as well, having access to a set of additional powerful weapons on robot arms, a personal Servitor crew with heavy weapons and possibly extra fancy toys.
I read that as "possible extra fancy boys" but I suppose that's also true, however you choose to take it.

Lupercalcalcal
Jan 28, 2016

Suck a dick, dumb shits


Night10194 posted:

Also, checking that over led me to check out the Dreadnought and other sections in Rites of Battle and remember the Best NPC, Brother Goremann the Elder. Goremann is a Dreadnought and has been such for a long time, and is honored and kept around for his sage advice, with his commanders rarely sending him into combat for fear of losing him. His advice will always, thus, trend towards 'ALSO THIS MISSION COULD REALLY DO WITH A DREADNOUGHT, WINK WINK' and his adventure seed has him either trying to convince the PCs to requisition his assistance so he can do war again and get outside, or him contriving a way to get drop-podded or teleported into the PCs' mission without them knowing he's coming, because he thinks the young 'uns will need the help. Especially if it's a mission fundamentally unsuited for a Dreadnought.

This alone makes me want to play this game, even though all of the rest of what you've written tells me it's a dreadful idea.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Deathwatch is honestly a decent game, especially for what it's trying to be. You can do worse than designing the whole system around 'every PC is going to be insanely good at killing things, since killing things is our core gameplay concept' and when we get to the setting it's actually full of adventure hooks and things to do to support a variety of tones and types of Marine stories. This is about when FFG starts to really get into the groove of writing fluff for 40k.

Also it has a bunch of the holes from DH filled in by this point. It then creates new holes.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Mar 27, 2018

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



My experience with running Deathwatch was that the drama isn't the killing things. That's the fun stress relief. The drama is getting to that point of killing things. Take it as a given that you're going to kill whatever you encounter unless it's, say, a carnifex or an avatar or a riptide. The rest of the session is where you make things difficult and interesting.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



Scion: Hero
We Are Not Gods

After the Great Flood, a golden chain descended from Heaven. Depending on who you ask, either Obatala or Oduduwa brought down a seashell full of dirt and a five-toed chicken. Then, the Creator spilled soil in the waters, and the chicken pecked, spreading it out to the continents. Then the Orisha descended to prepare the World. The place where they came down is Ile-Ife, the place of expansion, in West Africa. Here, the Orisha watched over the Yoruba, and their neighbors, the Vodun, cared for the Fon of Dahomey. This was how it was meant to be, forever, but human greed betrayd their people, kidnapped and enslaved them. The trans-Atlantic slave trade destroyed lives and families, even religions. The many peoples brought together by this evil had to put them together anew from half-remembered songs and stories, hidden behind a mask of Christianity. And so the Vodun, now mostly known as the Loa, and the Orisha went with them, to help. They didn't have to. They could have stayed, remained themselves. But they rode in the slave ships and endured the whips and laid their own lifes down for the freedom of Haiti and Brazil. They chose to change and break themselves for the sake of their people.

Strictly speaking, while the Orisha and Loa are classed as gods, they aren't. Olodumare, the pantheon's Primordial, is the one they recognize as God, who is three - Olodumare, Olorun and Olofin, also known in Kreyol as Mawu Bondye. The Orisha and Loa are this god's servants, commonly known as saints, but that's a vulgar term. Slavery has fragmented and restored them, and will continue to do so. Different regions, faiths and even specific people disagree on names, stories, even genders and families of the Orisha. They are not defined in quite the same way as other pantheons, existing in states of uncertainty, with many Mantles, called caminos by the Cubans, which may be shared between them. However, the game's current map of their relationships, which is probably not permanent in the World but will do for now, recognizes Obatala and Yemoja-Oboto as the king and queen of the Orisha, with their sons being Orunmila, Eshu Elegbara, Ogun and Oshossi. Oduduwa took Ile-Ife from Obatala and fathered the founder of Oyo, Oranmiyan, who fathered Ajaka and Shango. King Shango's wives include Oshun and Oya Iyansan. Then you've got the more independent Ibeji, Orisha-Oko, Osanyin, and Sonponna.

Eshu Elegbara, the Opener of the Way, is also called Elegua, Exu, Papa Legba and Papa LaBas. Eshu can make or destroy a community, and is behind many strange things. He is first and last and forever, and he opens the way to start every ceremony, then closes it when it is over. You call him before you call anyone else. When Olodumare handed out Purviews, Eshu Elegbara caught the most of them - travel, language, play, arrivals, ordered and chaotic paths, stories, sex, the passage from life to death. Anything that starts at point A and goes to point B, in fact. He's the divine messenger and the best there is at manipulating the universal energy, ashe. He loves games and storytelling, and he appreciates rum, toys, candy and cigars, which can be left for him at the crossroads. He appears as a child or an old man in black and red, and when he appears as an adult he always has an erection - a big one. It was probably intended as a curse from Olodumare, but Eshu likes it. He carries a staff or cudgel to walk with, and usually has a missing leg or a back injury. He loves to have sex, and has many Scions. He expects them to do whatever they like and not bother him with it, though if you can pin him down and make him laugh, he'll probably take you out to eat and somehow manage to charge it to Obatala. Eshu Elegbara's Callings are Liminal, Lover and Trickster, and his Purviews are Artistry (Storytelling), Chaos, Deception, Epic Dexterity, Fortune and Journeys.

Ibeji, the Sacred Twins, are also called Taiyewo and Kehinde, Edun, Adanjukale, Hohovi, or Marassa Dosu Dosa. It is said that in Ishokun, in Oyo, a farmer had a constant problem with his babies dying until he discovered that a troop of magical, superpowered monkeys that he'd been driving out of his fields had cursed his wife. One he allowed the monkeys to run rampant in his crops, his wife bore two children, the first of the sacred twins of the Yoruba. Presumably his farm suffered, but he got magic kids out of the deal. Yoruba mothers are now four times more likely to have dizygotic twins than anyone else on the planet. The older twin, Kehinde, sends the younger twin, Taiyewo, out first to check that the world is worthy. They judge your actions with the clarity of childhood, and where they go, animals follow, singing. Their Incarnations are always children, though neither prefers a specific gender. Ibeji tend not to make traditional Scions; rather, any twin can become their Scion, especially if the mother has lost children before. The Ibeji usually grant an early Visitation, so often their Scions' adventures involve the entire family. As often as not, the non-Ibeji Scion twin will end up the Scion of some random non-Orisha deity, who usually claims to have no idea how that happened. This has made them essential diplomats for the pantheon. Ibeji's Callings are Healer, Trickser and Judge, and their Purviews are Artistry (Dance), Beasts (Monkeys), Death, Fertility, Fortune and Prosperity.

Moremi is the greatest hero of the Yoruba. She is the Great Mother, the sacrificial redeemer. See, once upon a time, an ancient people called the Igbo, who are unrelated to the modern Igbo, attacked Ile-Ife. They seemed not men but strange creatures, and the defenders fled in fear. Many Yoruba were captured and enslaved, and the woman Moremi offered a great sacrifice to the Esinmirin River if she could end the tyranny of the Igbo, then allowed herself to be captured. She was a tall, beautiful woman, and lived as the Igbo king's wife for five years until, in a moment of weakness, he revealed that the Igbo spirits were, in fact, not spirits - just men in raffia costumes. She then escaped to Ile-Ife and revealed the secret, telling the soldiers to carry torches to burn the raffia. At the end of the next raid, the Ife soldiers routed the Igbo, who never returned, but in payment, the river demanded the life of Moremi's son, Oluorogbo. When she killed him, a golden chain descended from Heaven, and he sprang to his feet and climbed into the sky. Moremi always has a reincarnation living in Ile-Ife. This incarnation is called Chief Eri, and oversees the yearly Edi Festival, which reenacts her adventure and sacrifice via feasts, wrestling and pranks. The Eri is always solemn, however, for her job is to remember Moremi's loss and grief. One the rare times that Moremi Incarnates as someone else, she prefers an unassuming woman in a subordinate job - an office worker, cleaning lady or army grunt, say - to better spy on the wicked. Oluorogbo's sacrifice has made Moremi very anxious and intense with her Scions, and she is always careful in choosing and guiding them. Yemoja calls her a helicopter parent, but she never listens. Moremi's Callings are Guardian, Lover and Trickster, and her Purviews are Beauty, Deception, Fertility, Fire and Passion.

Obatala is the King of the White Cloth, also called Aniyikaye, Oro Oko Afin Eni Shoju Shemu, Obatarisha, Alade Sheshefun, Orisha-Nla and Oxala. It is known that you must never laugh at anyone with protruding teeth, for they were made by Obatala, who failed to cover their teeth in flesh. Nominally, they are in charge of the Orisha, though their wife Yemoja doesn't notice, King Shango doesn't care and Oduduwa refuses to acknowledge it. Obatala bounces easily between male and female camino. When they first made humans out of clay, Eshu offered them palm wine, and they were too tired and thirsty to realize what it was until it was too late. And so, Obatala's humans weren't so great for the rest of that day. They still feel pretty bad about that, so they're the patron of people with disabilities. They were also the first king of Ile-Ife until Oduduwa took over, which is about as close as the Orisha ever got to Titanomachy. Obatala favors Incarnations where they can help the disabled. Hospital administrators, social services workers, nonprofits...and also travelers and tourists, because Obatala likes visiting new places, often followed by Eshu. Their Callings are Creator, Leader and Judge, and their Purviews are Artistry (Sculpture), Health, Order and Sky.

Oduduwa is the God-King of Ile-Ife, also called Oodua. He is the mighty one of the world, who blesses his people and never harms them, and who is the tutelary god of Ile-Ife. He claims Obatala got drunk and fell asleep when they were supposed to populate the world, so Olodumare sent him to finish the job. Oduduwa made the Earth and started a long rivalry that ended with him seizing Ile-Ife from Obatala, which is ritually reenacted each year. The two never get along even in the best of times - Oduduwa thinks Obatala is weak, and Obatala thinks he's stuffy, arrogant and presumptive. Oduduwa is also the only one among the Orisha and Loa who thinks Titans are different from gods, as he claims to have defeated ancestral spirits of the river, sun and fire when he took over in Yorubaland. Oduduwa believes in ending threats quickly and decisively, and the god-king that rules Yorubaland from Ile-Ife is his current Scion and Incarnation. This god-king is ritually sequestered from mortals, participating in important ceremonies on Oduduwa's behalf. His best-known Scion, however, is Oranmiyan, who is what Oduduwa expects of all his children - greatness and determination. When it was time for Oranmiyan to leave home, Oduduwa sent three lice to the three kings of Benin, asking them to care for the lice for three years, then return them. When they managed it, Oduduwa judged Benin to be worthy to receive Oranmiyan as their god-king and hero, thus founding the Oyo Empire. Oduduwa's Callings are Creator, Leader and Warrior, and his Purviews are Darkness, Earth, Order and War.

Ogun is the God of Iron. He is also called Oggun, Ogum, Gu, and Ogou. He prefers to bathe in blood, and he's very dangerous indeed. He can kill with anything made of metal, but the machete is his favorite. He is a bit of an introvert, spending most of his time by himself in the woods or hanging with his brother Oshossi, ever since Eshu convinced them not to kill each other over hunting grounds. Ogun goes ahead and clears the way for Oshossi to creep along and shoot food. Ogun wears green and black, he's always muscular, and he's always deadly serious. When he can, he travels by train. He loves trains, and also he can't get past most airport security easily. He can name any train he sees, down to make and model. Sometimes he's a farm blacksmith, sometimes a railroad engineer, sometimes a combat medic. He prefers to be surrounded by chaos, with a gun at his hip and tools in his hands, protecting something he cares about. He has a lot of Scions and is proud of it. He likes to see how they handle stress, so their Visitations are usually in crises of some sort. Ogun's Callings are Creator, Hunter and Warrior, and his Purviews are Earth, Epic Strength, Epic Stamina, Forge, Passion (Fear), and War.

Orisha-Oko is the God of Agriculture. He is also called Zaka or Kouzen Azaka Mede. He was once a mortal hunter and sage, and he loves the countryside. He can be trusted with any secret, but he never lies. His name means 'Farm Orisha' and it is by his power that we live. He mediates the conflicts the other Orisha can't resolve themselves, and he likes to hang out with Baldr of the Aesir. His symbol is the bull of the plow, and he rules over all cultivated plants. He appears in workman's clothes in earth tones, and Incarnates mostly as hunters, farmers or ranchers that live close to the land. He spends most of his time trying to help improve West African agriculture, which is no easy job, and some of his Scions are working in a think tank with those of Yandi Shennongshi and Inari to develop new crop yield improvement techniques and fight the use of child slavery and corn ethanol on cocoa plantations. Ultimately, Orisha-Oko wants to ensure no human ever goes hungry again. His Scions tend to be unpretensious, generous and tough, keeping their bands together by resolving problems and taking care of the little things. Orisha-Oko's Callings are Hunter, Judge and Sage, and his Purviews are Beasts (All Beasts of Burden, Birds), Fertility, Fortune, Order and Prosperity.

Next time: Orunmila, Osanyin, Oshossi, Oshun, Oya Iyansan, Shango, Sonponna, Yemoja-Oboto.

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!



Cythereal posted:

My experience with running Deathwatch was that the drama isn't the killing things. That's the fun stress relief. The drama is getting to that point of killing things. Take it as a given that you're going to kill whatever you encounter unless it's, say, a carnifex or an avatar or a riptide. The rest of the session is where you make things difficult and interesting.

Alternately, play it for comedy and give your Glorious Lords of Divine Slaughter a task that is manifestly unsuited to 3-5 nine foot tall death machines. Like, just take any random Dark Heresy plot hook, say that no, you guys really are the only people we have to do this, and send in the Marines. I bet within an hour of play, they'll have a triple-digit body count and may well have coup'd the planetary governor just to make the paperwork easier.

Green Intern
Dec 29, 2008

Loon, Crazy and Laughable



The Blood Angels must prevent a very important social function from being disrupted by chaos cults gone rampant, for it will be the site of delicate trade negotiations between major weapons and material-producing planets. They can’t allow the guests to notice anything is amiss. Cue 9-foot tall superhumans in tuxes doing their best James Bond.

(Although Bond is atrocious at being subtle)

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay: Deathwatch and Rites of Battle: Part 8

Poor Manual Dexterity

You remember how the gear section is where things went off the rails in DH? It's the same here, to the extent that there is a huge, official Living Errata designed to bring the weapons and equipment back under control, which was then followed in future games. Black Crusade, the next game in the line, only uses the Living Errata rules for Astrates weapons.

Marines don't have money. I'm fairly sure if anyone ever attempted to show a Marine an accounting or balance sheet they'd be flung with enough force to penetrate an armored bulkhead. Instead, Marines get Requisition points per mission, which they then spend on purchasing the equipment they need, loaned out for that mission. They also get a stock of personal gear that they can acquire by spending EXP for Signature Wargear, in addition to various permanent items granted by their class. For instance, an Assault Marine doesn't need to re-buy a basic chainsword and jump pack every mission, and a Devastator can always fall back on the trusty Heavy Bolter and backpack ammo supply if the team doesn't need a different heavy weapon this mission. Your standard wargear from your class, plus your talents, will go far and leaves Requisition a pretty flexible way to pick up specialized weapons and equipment that you need. It's a pretty painless gear system and I appreciate it not including any 'roll to see if you get what you wanted' silliness.

Gear is also limited by Renown. You earn Renown for succeeding on missions, acts of conspicuous personal bravery, and length of service. You go up a rank of Renown per 20 Renown you earn, starting as Initiated and hopefully ending as Hero. Before you go up in Renown for the first time, you'll be limited to bolters, heavy bolters, flamers, your free combat knife and/or chainsword (or your fancy knight's sword if you choose one as a Dark Angel, or your giant mono-claymore if you're a Storm Warden), missile launchers, or a useless shotgun if you decide to take it because you're dumb (Seriously, it's inferior to a bolter in every way). You'll also have your power armor and can request to switch down to Scout armor if you need to be stealthy (Scout armor is worthless as armor, only covering Body and Arms for AV 6, but it gives +10 to stealth checks instead of the -30 for Power Armor). Also, tons of grenades; grenades are normally free, too. You only pay for grenades if, in the game's words, 'your request is deemed truly excessive'. At Respected, the second rank, you get the Lascannon, Power swords or axes (penetrate armor, cleave through unpowered weapons on Parries), Stalker Bolt Sniper Rifles (Accurate has also been upgraded to give rifles +d10 damage per 20 they hit by when firing on single-shot, which helps this rifle a ton), Meltas (extremely close-range but powerful microwave guns that crack tank armor) and Plasma Guns (oddly underpowered, the one weapon type the Errata buffed). At Distinguished you get stuff like Power Fists (2d10+2xSB as a Marine, at Pen 9?) or Thunder Hammers (Count your Unnatural as x3 while wielding, 2d10+5+Strength, Pen 8, AND can stun guys?), Plasma Cannons, Inferno Pistols (Pistol-sized meltas! Fantastic for handy, portable anti-tank), and all kinds of fancy tricks. At Famed you get the big stuff like requisitioning Terminator Armor (turns you into a small mech. Unable to dodge. Very slow. May not be worth it) and massive miniguns. Then as a Hero, you get things like ancient chapter relics or artificer armor. The same Artificer Armor the Techmarine has been wearing for 4 levels at this point while he smugly lectures you about the Omnissiah.

Now, any weapon with Astartes in the name can be wielded by a Marine in power armor. They cannot use other weapons in their armor due to its poor manual dexterity. Astartes weapons, we are assured, cannot be wielded by humans. They take -30 to hit with them and the weapon counts as one size category too high. The problem with Astartes weapons can be seen in the humble bolter. Its core rulebook stats give it 2d10+5 Pen5. The astute among you may note that is 5 more damage than a human *heavy bolter* from DH. It also still has Tearing, so you roll 3d10 and take the highest 2, either of which can cause a Fury check. Ostensibly, the changes to weapons were to limit dice rolling; the Bolter is reduced to d10+9 Pen4 with S/3/- fire rates, removing its full auto to try to make it less good (the games will constantly remove, then return, full auto capability to bolters depending on how the wind is blowing and whether it's sunny out this week or not). All this is clearly an attempt to tone it back down. The Heavy Bolter originally did 2d10+10 Pen6 with a Full Auto rate of 10. This gets dropped to a much more manageable but still crazy d10+12 Pen5 -/-/6, and having used one on a Tactical Marine with Bolter Mastery and specialist ammo and Mighty Shot, that thing will still kill anything short of a main battle tank and will still do that if you use the AP ammo and shoot it in the back. Lowering the power on most weapons was necessary because the original core book was crazy out of control.

The decision to make Marine weapons inherently and massively superior has the knock-on-effects I've already described: They necessitate enemies with huge damage reductions and truly massive wound pools to stand a chance. Remember that Full Auto was still +20 to hit at this point. Now imagine Sgt. Martinez is firing at BS 55 base, at Short range because his Heavy Bolter has a huge range, with Tactical Bolt Mastery, with a power armor bonus that gives him +5 BS. He is now firing at 100% to-hit and is mostly rolling to see how many times he hits someone with his (let's assume he's using AP ammo) d10+16 Pen8 weapon, which rerolls damage. That was my Tactical Marine, and he wasn't even a particularly spectacular Tactical Marine. Enemies that can take that kind of fire will be immune to fire below that level, and everything you make has to be competitive with that sort of firepower. The numbers spiral upwards towards madness and enemies with tons of Unnatural x3s aren't uncommon. Enemy firepower is also balanced on the same Marine scale, so a Tau pulse rifle (which their most basic soldier has) does d10+12 Pen4. Which ironically makes Tau terrifying to Marines because their basic mook soldier actually has a better gun than you (which is TT accurate) and can hurt you even through all your unnatural armor and toughness. It also makes it difficult for human-scale characters to contribute meaningfully in any combat environment with Marine scale enemies. d10+3 Pen0 Lasguns aren't going to do poo poo. This necessitates the creation of an entire system of massed enemy units specifically to let Lasguns have a chance to hurt you if you get shot with 50 of them. This same system will also lead to a scene where a single Tactical Marine with a pair of Stormbolters killed over 100 Tyranid Gaunts in a single round of fire. Things are going to get crazy and triple-digit body counts will be the norm, which you might take as a plus.

This game's proliferation of Unnaturals also leads to a new trait: Felling. Felling reduces someone's Unnatural toughness multiplier by 1. As a Techmarine, you get can a you-only heavy weapon that can do up to 6d10+12 Pen14 Felling with an AoE if you fire it at someone far enough away. This is more powerful than even our game-skewing old friend Lascannon. Lascannon is shocked and angry to no longer be the most powerful single-shot weapon in existence. I thought I should mention it. (Admittedly this is a Hero scale end-game weapon, the Conversion Beamer).

I should also mention the specialist Bolter shells, because TacMarines get them as standard and lots of other PCs will buy them with Requisition, since they're great. Your standard Bolter carries three full clips at all times, and as a free action you can swap which one it's drawing from. Your standard .75 (or .998, fluff waffles a lot on which caliber Bolters are) is the basic round. You can also get overcharged Kraken penetrators, which increase range by 50% and make the weapon Pen 8. You can use Hellfire biological warfare rounds, which Fury on a 9-10 and penetrate any and all Natural Armor immediately. You can use Metal Storms, which give -2 Pen and Damage but give each shell a 2m blast radius. You can use Dragonfire rounds for -2 Damage but setting people on fire. Implosion Shells will reduce enemy Agility by d5 per hit that does damage, which is hilariously a great way to capture a Carnifex with a Heavy Bolter (if reduced to 0 Agi, you're paralyzed and unable to act at all). Stalker Rounds give -2 damage but a '-30 to tests to detect gunfire that can only be attempted at half the distance'. At no point is a basic distance for detecting gunfire ever listed. FFG! They also don't give the penalty and become totally silent if put in that Stalker sniper rifle. You can get Witch Bolts, which reduce enemy Psy Rating when you shoot them. Finally, you get Vengeance Rounds, which detonate in a little plasma burst and gain Felling and Pen 9, but shoot you in the arm and jam your gun if you roll a 91+ since the bullet detonates in the barrel. These are designed specifically to kill other Marines.

Finally, we get to armor. Armor is actually really involved! You get a huge list of mostly superfluous bonuses for your armor, plus little notes like 'you can fire a rifle one-handed with no penalty' or 'your armor produces food for you'. It also gives -10 to any check requiring manual dexterity outside of combat, -30 to stealth, and it gives +20 to Strength, though this is added to your SB *after* your Unnaturals. Marines in their armor also count as Hulking, the size above human sized, in all positive aspects (they move faster, grapple better, etc) but none of the negatives (they're no easier to hit). More importantly, you also get a History for your armor, a little magic extra ability that distinguishes your suit. You roll on a d10 table with the option of moving up one or down one. These are all things like '+5 Agility' or '+10 more Strength' or '+5 WS, but the suit thinks guns are cowards and gives -5 BS'. If you're using Rites of Battle, you can also roll for what mark of suit you wear, and older suits get multiple histories. You can have Beaky Armor! It even gives worse armor but +10 to Agility. Mk6 Corvus is clearly the best, most beaky armor for the Marine on the go. There are also a bunch of additional history tables that can do everything from making your armor include magic hyper-gauntlets to it being possessed by an insane hero whose hyper-skill you can call on at the cost of gaining Insanity. Armor History is pretty neat and makes your power armor feel like a personal relic.

You can also get Terminator Armor, which puts you to AV 14, gives -20 to Agility, +30 to Str, lets you wield heavy weapons one-handed, lets you mount missile batteries on your back, gives you giant chainsaw fists, and won't let you Run, so you won't be moving much. It's a weird tradeoff.

We also get rules for Force Fields! They provide a defense roll against any incoming fire or blows, which you can use in addition to your active defenses. If they succeed, you don't take the hit. However, on a 1-10 (for an average field) your field also shorts out and won't work unless someone makes a Tech Use-30 test to repair it, or until the next mission. To make up for not being able to dodge, Terminator Armor has a 35% Field Save that never overloads, representing (and I kid you not) the shots hitting your invulnerable shoulderpads.

Weapons and armor can also be Master Crafted or Exceptional. An Exceptional weapon gives +1 to damage and becomes Reliable (Jams only on a 00), while a melee weapon gets +5 WS as well. Exceptional armor gives +1 AV to the first shot to hit it per round. Master-Crafted weapons give +2 to damage and never, ever falter or fail, while melee weapons also get +10 to-hit. Master-Crafted armor is +1 AV all the time.

Your weapons are insanely powerful, you have the best armor in the game, and you can still be torn apart in a minute because all this stuff leads to massive inflation of monster stats.

Next Time: Psychic Powers, Amigo

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Green Intern posted:

The Blood Angels must prevent a very important social function from being disrupted by chaos cults gone rampant, for it will be the site of delicate trade negotiations between major weapons and material-producing planets. They can’t allow the guests to notice anything is amiss. Cue 9-foot tall superhumans in tuxes doing their best James Bond.

(Although Bond is atrocious at being subtle)

At which point the Dreadnought arrives, unbidden, eager to help.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:


I'd like a martini, Shaken, not Stirred.
EVEN IN DEATH I STILL STIR

PantsOptional
Dec 27, 2012

All I wanna do is make you bounce

Glad to see thay the Conversion Beamer is about as terrifying in this as it was in the wargame. Fond memories of blowing apart gigantic enemy units first turn with that thing in 6/7th edition. (It had a unique property that made it stronger the farther it was from the target.)

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

PantsOptional posted:

Glad to see thay the Conversion Beamer is about as terrifying in this as it was in the wargame. Fond memories of blowing apart gigantic enemy units first turn with that thing in 6/7th edition. (It had a unique property that made it stronger the farther it was from the target.)

I love playing gunline armies (and therefore, I am the worst) and the Iron Hands are my favorite chapter. They have (had? haven't played in a while) a special option where they could bring more techmarines than normal. I remember one game I brought like four techmarines with beamers that just forted up in ruins and blasted stuff. Only did it once after I saw how quickly they destroyed my opponent, just wasn't fun.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Also, the Tau in Deathwatch are mostly pre-grimdarkening and one of the major plot points with them is the Imperials frantically trying to find out what psychic power or force they *must* be using to subvert Imperial worlds and cause rebellions in the region, when it's mostly that they promise an end to the summary executions and a better standard of living.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



Honestly, having a decent group would do a lot to lighten up 40k and make it easier to latch onto something, as for me aside from the unapologetic fascism, the biggest thing that makes me bounce off the setting hard is 'Why should I care? Everyone's an rear end in a top hat, and everyone's doomed"

NGDBSS
Dec 30, 2009








No mention of the extreme ease with which you can boost stealth? I never played far in DW but I do recall being able to juggle several stummers on a loop to negate that power armor penalty.

Granted, however, it was only Black Crusade that had one Stealth skill. DW and the previous entries instead had three skills for that niche.

That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah




I could totally play WFRP relatively straight. In fact, I'd find it easier and more enjoyable to do so compared to many other fantasy RPGs. 40k anything, though, it's got to be darkly humorous or incredibly arch soap opera punctuated by insane hyperviolence.

Planetary Governor: Ah, it is so surprising—yet honorful and spiritually gratifying!—that the Deathwatch should arrive just in time for my daughter's combination coming out presentation and violin recital. Are you here to find some Chaos cultists, perhaps far away on the other side of the planet?

Deathwatch Duder: Oh, we're not going to find them.

*cut to wide shot of planet exploding*

Young Freud
Nov 25, 2006



That Old Tree posted:

I could totally play WFRP relatively straight. In fact, I'd find it easier and more enjoyable to do so compared to many other fantasy RPGs. 40k anything, though, it's got to be darkly humorous or incredibly arch soap opera punctuated by insane hyperviolence.

Planetary Governor: Ah, it is so surprising—yet honorful and spiritually gratifying!—that the Deathwatch should arrive just in time for my daughter's combination coming out presentation and violin recital. Are you here to find some Chaos cultists, perhaps far away on the other side of the planet?

Deathwatch Duder: Oh, we're not going to find them.

*cut to wide shot of planet exploding*

That's up there with the joint Rogue Trader-Dark Heresy game I keep thinking about, where minor annoyances that the Rogue Trader side comes across are full-on disasters for the DH side.

Navigator: Oh, it seems that we have some flickering in the Geller fields, but it shouldn't be much of a problem.

Meanwhile, on the lower decks: AHHH! EBON GEISTS ARE COMING THROUGH THE HULL! WHY AM I CRYING BLOOD!

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




A rogue trader ship has a listed crew of 25k at the smallest. Murders are background noise in a populace that big.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




That Old Tree posted:

I could totally play WFRP relatively straight. In fact, I'd find it easier and more enjoyable to do so compared to many other fantasy RPGs. 40k anything, though, it's got to be darkly humorous or incredibly arch soap opera punctuated by insane hyperviolence.
WFRP has stuff like the Witch Hunters, but you can understand why. There isn't that creepy fascist element.

Ironically, WFRP has funny quotes, whereas 40k is known for fascist/inquisitorial stuff played straight.

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007

IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!




Interrogator: listen up maggots! The lord inquisitor had tasked us with two simple objectives:
1- eradicate the incredibly dangerous chaos cult hiding in the abandoned levels before they complete that daemonhost they've been collecting body parts for.
2- keep the Rogue trader's retinue from being disturbed, there's a politically important wedding going on.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Halloween Jack posted:

WFRP has stuff like the Witch Hunters, but you can understand why. There isn't that creepy fascist element.

Not only that, there's actual page space devoted to 'If you just go gently caress it and burn down the village to get the heretic, you radicalize the survivors and they may, for completely understandable reasons, come back to bite you in the rear end'.

Or the whole thing about how the Hunters are slowly, by fits and starts, becoming more professional and being forced to show evidence at trial.

The RPG, at least, put a fair amount of thought into why you can't just go full fascist if you actually want to win at rooting out cults and monsters, and about how there are root causes bigger than 'people are evil'.

Glagha
Oct 13, 2008

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAaaAAAaaAAaAA
AAAAAAAaAAAAAaaAAA
AAAA
AaAAaaA
AAaaAAAAaaaAAAAAAA
AaaAaaAAAaaaaaAA



I've always enjoyed the fascist element to 40k but only because I kind of enjoyed the idea that humans are among the villains in that universe. That was before finding out that not everyone takes it that way. I took it as "oh cool how GRIMDARK that humans are the real monsters" but other people were taking it as "these jackbooted aryan supermen are so cool".

edit: Also why during my brief stint of spending money on the tabletop game I bought into Tyranids because they were the most sympathetic non-Tau faction. They're just hungry.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

DAD LOST MY IPOD
Feb 3, 2012

Fats Dominar is on the case




I deeply enjoyed the game of Rogue Trader I ran because I had a couple sessions set up as a murder mystery on a space station but instead of following my tantalizingly placed clues my PCs opted to frame a rando, claim the reward and get out of town before anyone caught on

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply