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hyphz
Aug 5, 2003

Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.


Ah, Iron Kingdoms. Where my alchemist bankrupted himself rebuilding bombs every session and couldnít buy any improved gear. The GM gave him a sack of Hollywood bombs, which got even sillier.

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Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




hyphz posted:

Ah, Iron Kingdoms. Where my alchemist bankrupted himself rebuilding bombs every session and couldnít buy any improved gear. The GM gave him a sack of Hollywood bombs, which got even sillier.

Wait so he was throwing Heaven's Gate videotapes at people?

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Setting a D&D game in a gunpowder world is not as easy as it sounds--it's a surprisingly tall order to decouple AC from armour.

You can do scaling bonuses to defense, which is elegant and logical. The problem is that D&D monsters weren't designed with the assumption that everyone wears padded or leather armor at 1st level and gradually scales up. (See also: the BECMI Mystic.) I recall there's an OSR Old West game that does it, but it's not really trying to be compatible with other OSR games. (If it has any resemblance to Boot Hill, Idunno.)

Some games just keep the armor mechanics in place, or adapt them to the setting, which results in weird stuff like pirate games where the PCs will be desperate to get ahold of munition armour, or modern adventure games where everyone must go around in military body armour if they know what's good for them. (A good example is the OSR game Ancient Mysteries and Lost Treasures. It's inspired by a mix of pulp archaeology and technothriller fiction, but leans on the latter with regard to combat because it replaces D&D armor with a a remarkable preoccupation with various kinds of Kevlar vests and trauma plates.)

A method I'm going to try is to assume a base AC by class, which they can improve if they have access to their armour, and can boost further if they're willing to wear heavy armour with all the problems that entails.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



Our world has been a gunpowder world since the 15th century or so and soldiers still wear body armour.

You're essentially taking a hacksaw to the core combat mechanic of the game for the sake of aesthetics here. I'm not saying it's wrong as such to do so, but you have considered trying some other game first, right?

hyphz
Aug 5, 2003

Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.


Kavak posted:

Wait so he was throwing Heaven's Gate videotapes at people?

Sorry, I meant Hollywood ammo - technically not infinite, but there's mysteriously always enough.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012


Its not terribly difficult to keep an iron kingdoms alchemist in grenades unless youíre in an antagonistic group like hyphz

Comrade Gorbash
Jul 12, 2011

My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.


Really it's the introduction of the socket bayonet that truly drives the wholesale rethink of warfare.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



The socket bayonet was the last nail in the pikeman's coffin, but I think convenient field artillery and just the sheer size of armies are what made body armour eventually take a break for a couple of centuries.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



Eh, the steel helmet never went out of style. It just took a long time for armor to catch back up to having a reasonable chance of stopping certain intentional attacks rather than shrapnel and glancing hits.

LatwPIAT
Jun 6, 2011

Do I need a title?

Siivola posted:

Let me tell you about this game called Lamentations of the Flame Princess. :shrek:

OK but what if we make a game that doesn't have a supplement called gently caress For Satan and has blackpowder weapons as more than an afterthought in the appendix?

oriongates
Mar 14, 2013

Validate Me!




I'd say the bigger factor is the closer we get to the modern day the more familiar things are to us and thus the more social elements come into play.

fantasy games largely take place in version of quasi-medieval quasi-europe which most people have only a vague understanding of and so the idea of people walking around in full armor doesn't seem dissonant. It fits with the image fiction has given with us and seems to make a certain sense based on the relatively lawlessness of the world and the danger of a world full of monsters, bandits, cultists etc.

But once you hit the cowboy or WWI era that changes. Fiction no longer shows people in body armor unless it's an unusual circumstance. So we assume it just wasn't around at all back then.

Then when you hit modern day not only do we not see people in our action movies in body armor, but you don't see it much on the street either (and you know that it's not the sort of thing that would be socially acceptable). So the idea of characters hanging out in ballistic vests or riot gear seems laughable because it doesn't fit either fiction or perceived reality.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012


LatwPIAT posted:

OK but what if we make a game that doesn't have a supplement called gently caress For Satan

That's a fantastic supplement name tho. It just belongs in like, a Brutal Legends rpg or something.

DalaranJ
Apr 15, 2008

Yosuke will now die for you.


I assume Raggi heard the name ďKill puppies for SatanĒand vowed to put out a more edgy product name.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





LatwPIAT posted:

OK but what if we make a game that doesn't have a supplement called gently caress For Satan and has blackpowder weapons as more than an afterthought in the appendix?

yes hello this sounds like it needs to be looked at

Young Freud
Nov 25, 2006



oriongates posted:

I'd say the bigger factor is the closer we get to the modern day the more familiar things are to us and thus the more social elements come into play.

fantasy games largely take place in version of quasi-medieval quasi-europe which most people have only a vague understanding of and so the idea of people walking around in full armor doesn't seem dissonant. It fits with the image fiction has given with us and seems to make a certain sense based on the relatively lawlessness of the world and the danger of a world full of monsters, bandits, cultists etc.

But once you hit the cowboy or WWI era that changes. Fiction no longer shows people in body armor unless it's an unusual circumstance. So we assume it just wasn't around at all back then.

Then when you hit modern day not only do we not see people in our action movies in body armor, but you don't see it much on the street either (and you know that it's not the sort of thing that would be socially acceptable). So the idea of characters hanging out in ballistic vests or riot gear seems laughable because it doesn't fit either fiction or perceived reality.

I don't know about that. Last few years we've had at least a few actioners that have featured protagonists in plate carriers, like John Wick and The Fast & The Furious movies with Dwayne Johnson (specifically his character).

However, body armor or riot gear is standard issue among goons, which doesn't help them when someone shoots them regardless of location.

hyphz
Aug 5, 2003

Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.


fool_of_sound posted:

Its not terribly difficult to keep an iron kingdoms alchemist in grenades unless youíre in an antagonistic group like hyphz

It's not terribly difficult (it was a long while ago I played) but as I recall the grenades don't scale as you level up. So you have to have a gun as well for dealing actual damage, and it costs money to upgrade that. So while everyone else is upgrading their guns, you fall behind because you have to keep replacing your grenades, and become a kind of ineffective Controller.

Speleothing
May 6, 2008

Spare batteries are pretty key.

Cythereal posted:

Eh, the steel helmet never went out of style. It just took a long time for armor to catch back up to having a reasonable chance of stopping certain intentional attacks rather than shrapnel and glancing hits.

1700-1914 just called and wanted a word with you.

Siivola posted:

I've always kinda wanted to do an F&F of the Iron Kingdoms Character Guide because it's simultaneously a dope setting and it's it's filled cover-to-cover with dumbass rules exactly like that. You have no idea how close to IK's gun rules you are right now.

But man, it's a huge-rear end book and I'm no Mors.

Have you considered that Mors writes entirely too many words and could stand to be a bit more brief.

Davin Valkri
Apr 8, 2011

Maybe you're weighing the moral pros and cons but let me assure you that OH MY GOD
SHOOT ME IN THE GODDAMNED FACE
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!


oriongates posted:

I'd say the bigger factor is the closer we get to the modern day the more familiar things are to us and thus the more social elements come into play.

fantasy games largely take place in version of quasi-medieval quasi-europe which most people have only a vague understanding of and so the idea of people walking around in full armor doesn't seem dissonant. It fits with the image fiction has given with us and seems to make a certain sense based on the relatively lawlessness of the world and the danger of a world full of monsters, bandits, cultists etc.

But once you hit the cowboy or WWI era that changes. Fiction no longer shows people in body armor unless it's an unusual circumstance. So we assume it just wasn't around at all back then.

Then when you hit modern day not only do we not see people in our action movies in body armor, but you don't see it much on the street either (and you know that it's not the sort of thing that would be socially acceptable). So the idea of characters hanging out in ballistic vests or riot gear seems laughable because it doesn't fit either fiction or perceived reality.

On the other hand, it isn't like the people of that era didn't try to get bulletproof vests...

oriongates
Mar 14, 2013

Validate Me!




Absolutely, but presentation in fiction is way more important that historical fact.

pseudo-medieval fantasy often has characters traipsing around in all but the most peaceful situations. Ergo it's no problem when PCs traipse around in armor. Despite the fact that they'd probably be considered weird as hell to stroll up to a roadside tavern in full plate.

westerns and WWI/II war movies don't have characters in body armor, even though it historically existed, therefore it's not typically part of the design for games in those eras.

Modern fiction rarely presents characters in body armor and we know from experience that wearing what body armor we do see (things like SWAT gear) are inappropriate for day to day life, so games set today are rarely designed with that in mind.

DicktheCat
Feb 15, 2011



I've gone back several pages, but is anyone doing, has done, or planning to do the new Pathfinder? If I'm just missing it, let me know. I've heard it's a hilarious mess, and want to know more/see someone snark at it.

Please forgive me if I've missed it, I'm like a million pages behind.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


There's a new Pathfinder?

Is it just D&D 5e with the serial numbers filed off, higher numbers, and 'original setting, do not steal' written on it? That'd be keeping with the precedent and design of the first game.

OvermanXAN
Nov 14, 2014


Night10194 posted:

There's a new Pathfinder?

Is it just D&D 5e with the serial numbers filed off, higher numbers, and 'original setting, do not steal' written on it? That'd be keeping with the precedent and design of the first game.

It's worse. It's still 3.5 derived, from what I can tell, but Taking 10 is a feat now. A multibuy feat, once per skill. With skill prerequisites for effect :smithicide:

Though the good news is that if you have high enough ranks in the skill it becomes take 20 or take 30 in the same situations without spending extra time? But still, more stuff that you could always do that is now locked behind feats. Joy.

OvermanXAN fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Aug 9, 2018

That Old Tree
Jun 23, 2012

nah




Night10194 posted:

There's a new Pathfinder?

Is it just D&D 5e with the serial numbers filed off, higher numbers, and 'original setting, do not steal' written on it? That'd be keeping with the precedent and design of the first game.

No, it's better than that, but still very recognizably Pathfinder so not great anyway. You can get the playtest packet for free if you bother to have a Paizo account.

Wrestlepig
Feb 25, 2011

my mum says im cool



Toilet Rascal

OvermanXAN posted:

It's worse. It's still 3.5 derived, from what I can tell, but Taking 10 is a feat now. A multibuy feat if you want to Take 20 ever. Three buys. :smithicide:

Thatís incredible, taking 10 is one of the best ideas 3e had

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012


hyphz posted:

It's not terribly difficult (it was a long while ago I played) but as I recall the grenades don't scale as you level up. So you have to have a gun as well for dealing actual damage, and it costs money to upgrade that. So while everyone else is upgrading their guns, you fall behind because you have to keep replacing your grenades, and become a kind of ineffective Controller.

Scaling barely exists in Iron Kingdom? Where you playing the d20 version, maybe? Cause I'm thinking of the later standalone.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





Yeah the IK RPG - the one they made themselves, not with the OGL content - is very much a somewhat more nuanced version of Warmachine/Hordes. There isn't a lot of scaling in it. Based on my limited tooling around the result is something like Final Fantasy Tactics: Your fights are nasty and demand tactics but you will probably be able to recover between fights quite readily. I could be high though.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





OvermanXAN posted:

It's worse. It's still 3.5 derived, from what I can tell, but Taking 10 is a feat now. A multibuy feat, once per skill. With skill prerequisites for effect :smithicide

ahahahahaah

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012


Nessus posted:

Yeah the IK RPG - the one they made themselves, not with the OGL content - is very much a somewhat more nuanced version of Warmachine/Hordes. There isn't a lot of scaling in it. Based on my limited tooling around the result is something like Final Fantasy Tactics: Your fights are nasty and demand tactics but you will probably be able to recover between fights quite readily. I could be high though.

That's basically correct. You all but full heal after every fight as long as you don't get taken out, and it's pretty easy to heal during fights as long as mooks are around to kill.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!


Armor, eh?

Well, the early black powder weapons aren't that easy to use, especially if you're dealing with a matchlock and have to have a stand to support (unless you're some cheating Streltsy rear end in a top hat with an axe for a stand). I mean, sure, you're probably not implementing too many rules for matches and even then you could probably implement the very earliest examples of breechloaders (with reloadable brass) as high-level items (as they were in real life). At the same time, you can have warriors traipsin around in plate armor because AFAIK the plate got to its highest level in order to withstand shot. Apparently, Japanese armor smiths used to shoot a pistol at a newly printed cuirass and then decorate the hit location to show that, no poo poo, this armor stops a bullet.

I think the early Conquistador expeditions had more crossbows than blackpowder weapons?

So the basic matchlock is probably heavy and unweildy, but goes through everything that's not plate. But that's why warriors and paladins get plate, and in fantasy, you can get enchanted plate, or gromril plate, or Elf Bullshitry to deal with it. You can give your blackpowder weapons a shock effect from the sound and the flame, though this will only lead to nerds arguing that in a world of plentiful magic, that shouldn't be that scary. I'd argue that it should.

Later eras see improved weapons and armor only given to cavalry since they have the horse to help deal with the weight. Still, blackpowder is a good way to give, say, city militia a fighting chance against chaos warrior and such (player characters?).

DigitalRaven
Oct 9, 2012

When I kill you with a motor-car, you should have the common decency to stay dead, you horrid little object




Nessus posted:

Yeah the IK RPG - the one they made themselves, not with the OGL content - is very much a somewhat more nuanced version of Warmachine/Hordes. There isn't a lot of scaling in it. Based on my limited tooling around the result is something like Final Fantasy Tactics: Your fights are nasty and demand tactics but you will probably be able to recover between fights quite readily. I could be high though.

An F&F of the new IK RPG would be good. I tried to read it but couldn't get past what felt like two thousand pages of the writers masturbating over the ancient history of the setting, despite it having no bearing in actual play. Nobody coming into the game who isn't already a Warmahordes nerd gives a toss what happened thousands of years ago, so don't front-load that bullshit.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!


DigitalRaven posted:

An F&F of the new IK RPG would be good. I tried to read it but couldn't get past what felt like two thousand pages of the writers masturbating over the ancient history of the setting, despite it having no bearing in actual play. Nobody coming into the game who isn't already a Warmahordes nerd gives a toss what happened thousands of years ago, so don't front-load that bullshit.

But isn't that like super important, in that undead dragons are trying to eat the world, the whole thing about gods and all that?

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012




For Gold & Glory: Chapter 8: Combat

Before the book dives into combat, it helpfully tells us that not all encounters need to end in combat, and not all combat needs to be fought to the death. Characters can try to evade the encounter, try to talk it out or simply wait and see what happens. More on that in Chapter 10: Encounters, I bet.

But we're not going to wait! Chaaaarge! :black101:


It's clobberin' time!

Time in combat is, as mentioned previously, measured in one-minute rounds. Everyone acts simultaneously in combat and every round of combat follows a set sequence:
  • GM decides the actions of the monsters.
  • The PCs declare their actions and begin casting spells.
  • Initiative is rolled for all opposing parties. It's an opposed d10 roll between groups, lower being faster.
  • Actions are resolved and spells finish casting in order of initiative.
Yeah, you re-roll initiative every round. While initiative is rolled for the whole party, different modifiers might apply to individual characters. Starting your round in knee-deep water means a +2 penalty, while having the high ground gives a -1 bonus. In case the initiative is a tie, compare weapon speed or spell casting time to figure out the order.

It's not mentioned in the book how you're expected to keep track of this. I'd probably use dice or sketch a ten-step initiative track on a piece of paper and use meeples or whatever on that. Or just have encounters happen on flat dry land.


I've got things to stab, places to be

In a round a character can move their full move value, cast spells, make attacks or do stuff like light a torch or drink a potion. Notably, drawing a weapon or getting up from prone do not take any meaningful time.

If a character opts to use the entire round moving, they can move ten times their movement value (or MV) in feet. Unencumbered humans can hustle up to 120 feet a minute. Enemies can't move through each other and changing your facing doesn't take extra movement. If you're engaged in melee with a creature, you can safely withdraw with a full move. You can also opt to flee, moving ten times your MV in yards, but everyone adjacent can make a free full attack on your sorry rear end.


Counting squares is for MMO babies, real gamers use hex maps!

Casting spells modifies the caster's initiative, so they'll usually act after the rest of the party. Spellcasting begins before initiative is rolled and finishes on the caster's turn. The spellcaster can't move while casting a spell and lose their Dex bonus to AC. If the caster takes any damage or fails a save while they're at it, the spell fizzles. No ifs or buts. If the spell requires a touch attack against an enemy, the caster makes an attack roll against AC 10 modified only by dexterity and magical bonuses. Touching a willing target who thoughtfully waits for the touch doesn't require a roll, but if the target is doing anything at all the caster must make an attack against AC 10.

Attacking enemies is pretty straightforward. First you find your THACO (which sadly no longer stands for "to hit AC 0") and subtract the target's AC from it. Then you roll a d20 and add any to-hit modifiers from magical weapons, high stats and circumstances. If the roll is equal to or greater than the modified THACO, you hit! Congrats, now roll damage. If the enemy runs out of hit points, they die. (There are no rules for automatic misses or hits on natural ones and twenties.)

Side note: If you're mathematically inclined, the above can be expressed as an inequality where the attack hits when d20 + modifiers ≥ THACO - AC. As long as you remember to change the sign as you move things from one side to the other, fiddle with it to your heart's content. Add the AC to the die roll as another modifier, or subtract your strength bonus from your THACO so you don't have to do the math every single time. Calculate the formula by which THACO is determined and bring BAB back. Go wild!

Even if you use your action to attack, you can move up to half your normal speed. Attacking doesn't end the move, so you can move, attack and move again, but any enemy you're "engaged in melee" with can opt to block your movement. If you manage to maneuver to an enemy's rear (flanking them isn't enough), they lose their dexterity bonus to AC and you get +2 to hit. If you're using a ranged weapon while moving, you halve the weapon's ROF, unless you've bought the relevant missile weapon combat method.

You can also chaaaaarge, which lets you move one and a half times your full movement before attacking. This gives your first attack +2 to hit but you lose your Dex bonust to AC, get a +1 AC penalty on top of that and your target gets -2 to initiative so they just might manage to run away.

If you have multiple attacks, you get to make all of them whenever you attack. Suck it, 3E! Your first attack is done at your regular initiative count and the rest after all other actions have been resolved. If multiple characters have multiple attacks, they get resolved in initiative order as usual. Odd numbers of attacks are divided so that you get the extra attack every other turn: A character with 3/2 attacks attacks once on the first round, twice on the second and then again once on the third. These rules apply in both melee and ranged combat.

Fighting with two weapons adds a full extra attack per round with your off-hand weapon, but you get -2 to attack with your main hand and -4 for your off hand. The penalties can be mitigated with a high dexterity, combat skills or by playing a ranger. The off-hand weapon must be smaller than the main hand one unless you bought the two-weapon combat method.

When you guys said 2E warriors don't gently caress around, you weren't kidding. :stare:

For special combat maneuvers, the book includes brawling, wrestling and overbearing. If you attempt any of these on an armed opponent, they get an opportunity for a free attack. Brawling and wrestling work identically: You roll a regular attack roll and refer to a table to see what happens. Natural one is not an automatic miss but a natural 20 is still and automatic hit. If you have the appropriate unarmed combat method, you get bonuses to hit and damage and can adjust the maneuver up or down. If you're wearing heavy armor while wrestling, you get a penalty on the attack roll.



The %KO value is the probability to knock the opponent out, stunning them for 1d10 rounds. Brawling moves deal the indicated damage while wrestling moves all deal a single point. Strength modifiers apply. If a wrestler scores a hold, it deals a "cumulative 1 point of damage per round held" until the hold's broken. So if you score an arm bar, I guess the damage ramps up until you tear off their arm and they die? That's pretty metal.

Overbearing is an attempt to drag an opponent to the ground. It's made by making a regular attack roll against a target, but you get a modifier based on the size difference and +1 for every attacker beyond the first. The weakest attacker makes the actual roll, but size modifiers are determined by the largest attacker. A successful attack roll drags the target down (any attacks against them get +4 to hit but they're free to stand up) and a second successful overbearing attack pins them, presumably making them helpless (any attacks hit automatically). I don't know if that's ever actually useful, but it's pretty cool.

There's a bunch more niche stuff in here like shooting arrows into melee, tossing flasks of holy water or massive rolling boulders, turning undead (and paladins!), mounted combat and so on and so forth, but I'm going to skip past them because oh boy there's so much stuff in this chapter and it's all over the place.


The end is near

Wedged between morale and advanced combat rules there's also the thrilling conclusion to the example of play from the introductory chapter. The GM makes an effort to gank Wizard the wizard, but his shield spell keeps him in the fight long enough for him to cast sleep on the attacking brigands. The only unaffected brigand loses their nerve, turns to run and gets stabbed by Ranger. Thief hides from the spider that tried to ambush him, so logically it also attacks the brightest-coloured, softest target it can see. Wizard survives with 1 hit point. Fighter tries to fight the spider off but rolls a 1 on his attack roll, which "is automatic failure and usually something inconvenient happens". This rule doesn't actually exist anywhere in the book but go off, I guess. After they dispose of the spider, Ranger and Fighter start bickering over what they should do with the brigand leader, the nearly-dead wizard begs for healing and Rogue tries to loot the sleeping brigands. They make enough noise to earn a random encounter roll for their troubles.

People die when they run out of hit points. No negative hit points, no "dying" state, you drop stone dead when your last hit point goes. If a creature ever loses 50 hit points at once, they need to save vs. death or die outright. Only specific spells can raise the dead, and they don't always work. Characters heal 1 hit point per day of rest naturally, and complete bed rest increases the rate to 3 per day. Help from a trained healer can boost this rate. Healing magic exists.

However, like I said in the beginning, not all combat needs to be to the death. And honestly shouldn't, either, because this game doesn't give you a whole lot of HP to gently caress around with. To determine if they stick around, most NPCs and monsters have a morale stat that gets checked every now and then to see if they're still willing to stick around and get murdered. Unlike ability checks, the morale check is done by rolling 2d10 and comparing it to a creature's morale rating. Rolling equal or less means the creature succeeds in the check, rolling over means they retreat, surreder or comply. Angry mobs might have a morale score of 9 while a band of trained soldiers rate a 12. Animals don't typically fight to the death so the GM is encouraged to send them packing at the first injury, but unintelligent monsters like undead might stick around to the last bone.

Morale checks shouldn't be made every round since that bogs down the game. Good check points include:
  • The first round after being surprised
  • When a 25% of their allies have fallen
  • If someone gets blown to gory bits by magic
  • When there's only half left
  • If their leader dies or flees.
The players could also trigger a morale check by offering a chance to surrender, if the situation is looking dire for the monsters. This sounds like an important detail to remember.

Getting stabbed is not the only way characters can get hurt. Hazards like explosions, land slides and death magic are resisted with saving throws determined largely by a character's class and level. Saving throws are done by rolling 1d20 plus any modifiers against the saving throw on your character sheet. Spells and effects usually specify which save to use, but if it's ever unclear just look at the saving throw table for your class and start from the left: A poison effect from a wand would use the save vs. poison instead of the save vs. wands.

In case you need to gently caress up an inanimate object, there are rules for damaging those as well. Items have hit points, AC and saving throws much like characters. If a character fails their saving throw against something that could ostensibly destroy an item they're carrying and the item is weak to that particular hazard, they should roll a saving throw against that threat to see if it's destroyed. For instance, if a wizard carrying a magical scroll in their hand gets caught in a fireball, the scroll might just go up in flames alongside the wizard.

In addition to immediate death from being stabbed or incinerated, there are a number of grisly conditions characters might end up afflicted by, from blindness to permanent insanity. They can also get poisoned, cursed with lycantrophy or contract some kind of deadly disease. Poisons take a short amount of time to take effect, after which the hapless character needs to make a save vs. poison. If they fail, they will suffer the poison's full effect, be it temporary paralyzation or outright death. A successful save prevents the worst, but the character might still suffer damage.

Diseases work somewhat similarly: Instead of a saving throw, there's a small percentage chance to contract a disease whenever you come into contact with it. After a short incubation period the character falls ill and their strength and constitution are halved. After the disease's duration runs out, the GM rolls a percentile die to see if the character dies, after which the character starts recovering any lost abilities at a rate of one point per day. Somewhat oddly, the book suggests that every time our heroes enter a dungeon, they risk catching cholera, dysentery and typhoid fever, or potentially all three at once. :shrek:


Conclusion

Holy balls this was a long, meandering update. There's a lot of stuff I like in this chapter, like the initiative system, how buff fighters are and how hard combat spellcasting gets hosed, but for every cool thing there seems to be something lame like the 4% chance to contract dysentery every time you set foot in a dungeon.

I used to like THACO on paper, but now that I've spent a week reading about to-hit modifiers and AC modifiers and skill check modifiers, having some rolls go over and some go under and only some bonuses being negative is getting really confusing. I keep getting thrown for a loop by how a to-hit penalty is a -2 to your attack roll, but a skill check penalty is -2 to your ability score. I legitimately appreciate that the target numbers for all your rolls are right there on your character sheet, but oh man, it's all quite 1989.

Coming up next: Chapter 9: Adventuring and Exploration!

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



DigitalRaven posted:

An F&F of the new IK RPG would be good.
Two people have tried. They were both defeated.

JcDent posted:

But isn't that like super important, in that undead dragons are trying to eat the world, the whole thing about gods and all that?
Nah.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





JcDent posted:

But isn't that like super important, in that undead dragons are trying to eat the world, the whole thing about gods and all that?
If I like it itís cool setting, if I donít like it itís objective wanky poo poo.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


JcDent posted:

But isn't that like super important, in that undead dragons are trying to eat the world, the whole thing about gods and all that?

Frontload the state of the world that's important, provides quest hooks and what the PC's would be expected to give a gently caress about. Unless the undead dragons are very much currently present and an active threat, or the PC's are historians, they will likely not care about/know about what happened thousands of years ago.

Then later, in the book, after you've made the setting pitch that draws people in and provides the basis for character motivations, you add the DEEPEST LORE that the GM can use, if he wants, to make a saving-the-world epic storyline whatever.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!


Notable exception being WoD heatbreakers, where the extended fluff never matters and always sucks.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





PurpleXVI posted:

Frontload the state of the world that's important, provides quest hooks and what the PC's would be expected to give a gently caress about. Unless the undead dragons are very much currently present and an active threat, or the PC's are historians, they will likely not care about/know about what happened thousands of years ago.

Then later, in the book, after you've made the setting pitch that draws people in and provides the basis for character motivations, you add the DEEPEST LORE that the GM can use, if he wants, to make a saving-the-world epic storyline whatever.
To be fair to the IK book, its primary audience is Warmachines fans. I imagine in general the frontloaded setting history is because of the following thought process:

"They have to know at least something about the setting because I'm selling them this big book instead of a thin slip of a booklet about being lesbian Mormon mushroom orc professional wrestlers in a world gone mad max. But if I put a capsule of the setting in front and the real meat in the back, I'll have to repeat myself... and that costs pagecount I could be spending on either art or cocaine to do off the torso of an uncomfortable LARPer. So I ought to just put it together there and save space. Yeah!"

To also be fair, the undead dragon is the live motivator for the faction that burns souls for fuel, although I think he is a statted model in Warmahordes yet.

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!


PurpleXVI posted:

Frontload the state of the world that's important, provides quest hooks and what the PC's would be expected to give a gently caress about. Unless the undead dragons are very much currently present and an active threat, or the PC's are historians, they will likely not care about/know about what happened thousands of years ago.

Then later, in the book, after you've made the setting pitch that draws people in and provides the basis for character motivations, you add the DEEPEST LORE that the GM can use, if he wants, to make a saving-the-world epic storyline whatever.

I mean, I only know about the TT game, but two undead dragon factions are major players, Menoth's (god of Mankind) followers are striking out of their desert to reclaim lands, elves are going after humans because they believe that human magic is killing their gods, and so on. Maybe frontloading all of that backstory isn't too important/would make playing chars IC harder, but I have never read the IK rpg books.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



I guess a lot of players get into IK because of the miniature game's actually-for-real-sorta progressing metaplot, and learning how the world of Caen got to where it is now (well, I guess where it was around the time Warmachine Mk.2 came out?) can be really cool.

But from a utility standpoint the only actual use for that stuff is allowing the GM to add some amount of spice to their dungeoncrawls.

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DigitalRaven
Oct 9, 2012

When I kill you with a motor-car, you should have the common decency to stay dead, you horrid little object




JcDent posted:

I mean, I only know about the TT game, but two undead dragon factions are major players, Menoth's (god of Mankind) followers are striking out of their desert to reclaim lands, elves are going after humans because they believe that human magic is killing their gods, and so on. Maybe frontloading all of that backstory isn't too important/would make playing chars IC harder, but I have never read the IK rpg books.

None of that is conveyed by starting the history section thousands of years ago. If it was tied in to what the characters are expected to know, then it'd be something, but there's no indication in that section if anything is specifically relevant because it's dried than Mercury.

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