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Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

There are a few choice passages in the High Level Campaigns book, devoted to why you should give both middle fingers to any demihuman PC who wants to move past racial level limits. As direct a quote as I can recall is, 'If you get rid of level limits, you're not playing D&D any more.'

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Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017





Which carried over to 3E, where I remember a bit from the 'how to build characters' book that had a mild stroke at the mere thought of a dwarf wizard.

TheGreatEvilKing
Mar 28, 2016



The stupidest part of all this is that dwarf wizards are in actual mythology.

At least Wagner anyway.

megane
Jun 20, 2008





They seem really insistent that anyone who wants their character to be competent is a powergaming rear end in a top hat. I guess the true core of roleplaying and storytelling is failing to unlock a door 50 times in a row and relying on the wizard to do everything because he's the only class allowed to be good at things.

Also species level caps are blatantly terrible since they do literally nothing until you hit them, at which point your character is done and you play something else. Making up fluff reasons to justify it after the fact doesn't make it less of a terrible mechanic, especially because it doesn't "give humans an advantage" until and unless you run the campaign for ten years.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Ronwayne posted:

Underground is the only RPG i can think of that captures the grotesquerie of the current zeitgeist. Maybe SLA industries.

SLA Industries, despite being a parody of a cyberpunk dystopia, envisions all its principal characters as cool scary badasses with names like Intruder and Slayer and Preceptor Teeth. The Scottish teenagers who made that game couldn't imagine the world being run by the ruddiest-cheeked piece of poo poo in the nearest pub.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




megane posted:

They seem really insistent that anyone who wants their character to be competent is a powergaming rear end in a top hat. I guess the true core of roleplaying and storytelling is failing to unlock a door 50 times in a row and relying on the wizard to do everything because he's the only class allowed to be good at things.

Also species level caps are blatantly terrible since they do literally nothing until you hit them, at which point your character is done and you play something else. Making up fluff reasons to justify it after the fact doesn't make it less of a terrible mechanic, especially because it doesn't "give humans an advantage" until and unless you run the campaign for ten years.

IIRC a lot of that was because most of the LotR elements like nonhuman races were introduced begrudgingly at the insistence of the audience when the original idea was more based on medieval wargames and Conan.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


megane posted:

They seem really insistent that anyone who wants their character to be competent is a powergaming rear end in a top hat. I guess the true core of roleplaying and storytelling is failing to unlock a door 50 times in a row and relying on the wizard to do everything because he's the only class allowed to be good at things.

Personally I feel like that's a misreading of things, they're pretty sympathetic to players who end up discouraged by completely useless characters, and the book explicitly points out that while the GM should encourage players to play what they rolled up and make the best of it, they should never be forced to stick with it if they feel it's a completely unplayable shitshow to them.

As for the wizard being the only class allowed to be good at things... yeah that's not 2e AD&D, ha ha. Just wait till the classes chapter, or until we get into the actual mechanics of play.

I'm also going to have to agree with the 2e devs that characters with some sort of flaw or weakness are usually more interesting than ones with no drawbacks for the most part. D&D isn't really a nuanced game for having "flaws," so the only place a character can really have a fundamental weakness that they need to work around is in their core stats.

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

The stupidest part of all this is that dwarf wizards are in actual mythology.

At least Wagner anyway.

D&D, however, isn't based on mythology. :v: It's based on wargames stumbling drunkenly into a Tolkien novel and making off with half the races, then waking up at home in the morning and having to figure out what to do with them.


Bieeanshee posted:

There are a few choice passages in the High Level Campaigns book, devoted to why you should give both middle fingers to any demihuman PC who wants to move past racial level limits. As direct a quote as I can recall is, 'If you get rid of level limits, you're not playing D&D any more.'

Your memory's off. Let me paste the passage in full:

High Level Campaigns posted:

Demihumans in High-Level Play

Demihuman characters are usually forced to retire or assume secondary roles in the campaign once human player characters begin to reach high levels and the demihuman characters reach their advancement limits. That is exactly what is supposed to happen. Many DMs are tempted to ignore demihuman advancement limits, especially when players are unwilling to retire their high-level demihuman characters.

Do not ignore demihuman advancement limits; they are the price players must pay for gaining demihuman advantages at lower levels. Ignoring the advancement limits unbalances play by placing high-level power in the hands of characters who already have extra abilities, and it is grossly unfair to players who have chosen human characters and have labored long and hard to get to the point where their choices begin to pay dividends in the form of unlimited advancement.

So not exactly the same, and then the next passage more or less repastes the stuff from the DMG about how you can go ahead and ignore the rules if you want to, but with a few suggestions on how to still keep things more complicated for demihumans so they're still not getting a free ride on racial bonuses and the same easy advancement that human gets(slower advancement past max levels, needing to complete special quests to get access to higher levels, etc. etc.).

Not necessarily something I agree with, and I'd have preferred to just make humans stronger like in Birthright, but still a pretty far cry from "you're not playing D&D any more."

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

To witness titanic events is always dangerous, usually painful, and often fatal.





My experience in 2E is that wizards were still powerful but there were a whole bunch of rules that made their wizzarding more complicated and tricky, and the relatively boring benefits that fighters and thieves got racked up high enough for them to stay in the game. Clerics also were somewhat field-balancable by spheres and the rules of their gods; a god that let you wear heavy armor and even use swords would probably have more limited "spheres" of spellcasting so you could kind of determine where on the continuum between "fighter with healing" and "wizard with prayer" your cleric was.

Angrymog
Jan 29, 2012

Really Madcats



It's time to play Hunt the Stirge, as we continue our exploration of Ironguard.

Sadly, your suggestions about where the stirge is are all far more imaginative than the actual answer.



Last update the characters were railroaded into exploring the tomb known as Ironguard. They traversed some pratfall stairs, and find themselves in the Outer Chamber.



This room is 20' by 30, with a 20' high ceiling. A corridor opens in the southern wall. The entire room is made of blocks of dressed stone, and there's an amber light emanating from the end of the corridor, about 60' away.

In front of the corridor entrance is a massive, high-backed, stone chair on which sits a skeleton wearing a tattered robe with a staff resting across its knees.

These are the remains of Ilarim. The module notes that he was quite mad when he died, so Speak with dead isn't going to get anything useful out of him.

When the PCs examine the corpse, a Flying Dagger zooms out of a hole high in the eastern wall and attacks. This dagger will chase the PCs all around the dungeon, but will not chase them past the top of the spiral stairs.

There's a second flying dagger deep in the hole this one came from, but it'll only activate if disturbed.

There are apparently many variants of Flying Dagger, dependent on the mage who made them. These have AC 5, ThAC0 17, HP 9, Move 24 (manoeuvrability class A (used in the flying combat subsystem)), do 1d4 damage on a hit, and have a party trick.

If they only just miss the target - i.e. they miss by 1, 2 or 3 points, they're assumed to have hit something metal on the target.

They act as a rust monster.

Flying rust monsters.

gently caress you, Greenwood.

On the bright side, they're not hungry, so they don't go seeking out metal like a Rust Monster would.

On the western wall of the room are a row of wooden cloak hooks on which hand a variety of rotten scarves and cloaks, and an untarnished metal helm.

The helmet confers a +1 bonus to all saving throws, and a -1 per dice reduction on incoming fire damage. It can only be worn by clerics and fighters. If worn by any other class it stops them casting spells or using magic items effectively by growing a plate across the eyes anytime they try to cast or activate an item.

Guess it came from a party where they fighter or cleric was tired of the wizard or rogue borrowing their stuff. Note that Paladins and Rangers aren't exempt from the effect - they're in the Warrior class group, but aren't specifically Fighters.

The throne is totally non-magical and very heavy, which makes it unlikely that the party would try to move it until after they've explored everything else. Which is a shame, because once they've amassed the 30 str required to shift it they can find a cavity containing three scroll cases. One has a scroll of Write, one a scroll of the Curse of Forgetfulness (and its reverse variant), and the third has a few nonsense words written on it, which are actually the activation words for wands found in one of the deeper rooms.

Mission accomplished!

So, what should I cover next?

Seriously though, there's no clue that the throne is moveable, so they probably won’t think to try and move in until everything else has been searched. Worst case they never think to at all, and get annoyed at the GM and Ed for wasting their time. A kind GM would allow them to notice some damage to the stones around the throne when they examine it and the skeleton.

Let's assume the party doesn't think to try moving the throne, and so they venture into area 3, the Corridor

10' wide, 60' long and 20' high. At the far end is a stone door adorned with a relief of a laughing human face. Its eyes and mouth are dark holes (nothing magical about them - no sphere of annihilation lurking here - they're just spyholes from the room behind the door), but the surface of the door glows with an amber faerie fire spell.

There's a hand sized hole 10' up and 10' along the eastern wall. It contains another flying dagger that only activates once the stone door has been touched, and will chase people leaving the tomb, but not into the two innermost chambers.

Behind the door is the Inner Chamber.

A heavy curtain hangs diagonally across the south-west corner of the room. On the western wall is the shattered frame of a full length mirror. The glass shards still radiate a faint magic, but the former Gate is beyond repair.

Clustered in the south-east corner is a table, a footstool and an easy chair, made of Shadowtop wood. Of which we may find out more by reading the thrilling sounding 'Woodlands of the realms' from Dragon #125

quote:

Shadowtop trees are the soaring giants of the forests of the Realms. These trees grow very rapidly (up to 2' a year, if the weather is warm and damp enough), allowing some shadowtops to reach 90' or more in height. Trees of this size often have massive, pleat-ridged trunks flaring up to 20' in diameter at the base. The tree gets its name from the dense clusters of feather leaves which adorn its limbs. A shadowtop's leaves have frilled edges like those of an oak, with an irregular number of small fingers. These leaves are copper coloured on the underside all year round and deep green on the upper surface. The tops of these leaves fade to match the underside in the fall. The leaves cluster from spreading branches that make up the top 12' or so of the tree, which has few or no lower branches.

Shadowtop wood ('shadow wood') is fibrous and tough, but unsuitable for carving or structural work, as it has a tendency to split down its length under stress into a splayed mass of fibres. The fibres themselves are valued in rope-making; a few are added to the twist when a rope is being made, increasing the strength and durability of the coil when it is complete. Shadowtop wood burns slowly
(it must be ignited by a leaping fire composed of other woods) but very cleanly, with little smoke. The resultant flames generate an hot fire. Shadow-top wood is thus favoured for cooking.

If more than four wagonloads of wood are felled, cut up, and carried off for sale in a city, there will be a large remainder, which is usually left behind for later trips. By custom, travellers can usually cut enough from this pile for a night's fire without evoking anyone's ire.

Isn't that nice?

On the table are a large locked iron chest and a book. A battered pair of walking boots are by the stool.

The chest radiates a faint dweomer. It is locked and the key lost. When its finally opened, the magic within (Phezult's sleep of the ages spell, see the DM's sourcebook of the realms) is discharged, releasing a hungry Stirge which then attacks. Nothing else in the chest.

Yep! Stirge in stasis! WTF, Ed?

The book is an inventory if weird alchemical components which are stored somewhere else (if they even still exist). The boots have a oneshot magic toeblade installed in them - when touched to metal it acts as a rust monster antennae. But once only. The underside of the chair has a wand of illumination with 6 charges left.

Finally, we draw the curtain back on the Innermost chamber.

Beyond the curtain is a room that contains a massive stone casket. It's really heavy and requires a combined 17 str to open. When touched, a magic mouth screams threats from Iyarim at the players. Up to the DM if those threats mean anything, a suggestion is that another apprentice of Iyarim starts hounding the PCs in other adventures. Casket contains another flying dagger, clothes, and a selection of magical trinkets - 4 potions of healing, 1 potion of gaseous form, wand of wonder with 17 charges, and a staff that grants the bearer the effects of feather fall and can emit light. If the casket is moved, the there's a wand of negation with 4 charges underneath it.

Exit Player Characters, chased by one or more flying daggers.

I only hope that the non-dungeon crawling segments of Ed's games were better than his dungeons, because my god, this is creatively bankrupt - two tricks we've already seen in the Haunted Halls, the actually target of the quest being both near the front and easily missable, and a total gently caress you! railroad to get the characters into the quest in the first place. The location doesn't even work as a tomb converted into a wizard's home - my guess is that the broken gate mirror led to his actual home, and this was basically an antechamber. On the bright side, no scantily-clad sorceresses in peril.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!


Angrymog posted:

I only hope that the non-dungeon crawling segments of Ed's games were better than his dungeons, because my god, this is creatively bankrupt - two tricks we've already seen in the Haunted Halls, the actually target of the quest being both near the front and easily missable, and a total gently caress you! railroad to get the characters into the quest in the first place. The location doesn't even work as a tomb converted into a wizard's home - my guess is that the broken gate mirror led to his actual home, and this was basically an antechamber. On the bright side, no scantily-clad sorceresses in peril.

The only anecdotes I've heard of Greenwood's games all seem to involve Weird Sex poo poo(tm) like forcing the players to participate in elf orgies to continue their quest and having important NPC's wandering around topless and poo poo like that.

At least the wizard corpse wasn't topless and there was no skeleton orgy, could've been worse.

Ronwayne
Nov 20, 2007

That warm and fuzzy feeling.


I give it a .5 on the Oglaf meter.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



Man, that wizard was obsessed with daggers that cause rust.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

PurpleXVI posted:

Not necessarily something I agree with, and I'd have preferred to just make humans stronger like in Birthright, but still a pretty far cry from "you're not playing D&D any more."

It's patent bullshit, at any rate. Demihuman abilities are a useful edge at low levels, but the suggestion that an attribute trade-off and maybe a +1 to hit is worth hard capping their advancement in the later game is absurd. If you're running a game that will never reach name level, it's an empty threat. If you're gunning for 20, then gratz. You've just dicked over the kid who thought playing Legolas would be cool.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

Angrymog posted:

The chest radiates a faint dweomer. It is locked and the key lost. When its finally opened, the magic within (Phezult's sleep of the ages spell, see the DM's sourcebook of the realms) is discharged, releasing a hungry Stirge which then attacks. Nothing else in the chest.

Jesus H, for a stirge? There's a scenario in the 1E Realms grey box centered around a single casting of that spell keeping an entire monster zoo on lockdown.

Angrymog
Jan 29, 2012

Really Madcats



Bieeanshee posted:

Jesus H, for a stirge? There's a scenario in the 1E Realms grey box centered around a single casting of that spell keeping an entire monster zoo on lockdown.

Do you have the full write-up of the spell?

Also Greenwood seems to have a thing for stirges in stasis

Angrymog
Jan 29, 2012

Really Madcats



Mors Rattus posted:

Man, that wizard was obsessed with daggers that cause rust.

Maybe it was a way of having armour fall off any female warriors without just going "and then your armour falls off, and you have to take part in this stirge orgy to complete the quest."

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.



Between here and the catpiss thread, wonder how much the Wizard supremacy problem would've been mitigated if they had tossed out the general class and made specialist classes the sole way to play Wizards - still a lot of access to powerful spells but they can't do all and be all.

TheGreatEvilKing
Mar 28, 2016



Robindaybird posted:

Between here and the catpiss thread, wonder how much the Wizard supremacy problem would've been mitigated if they had tossed out the general class and made specialist classes the sole way to play Wizards - still a lot of access to powerful spells but they can't do all and be all.

Gary was actually going to do this before he was booted from 2e.

Ysengrin
Feb 13, 2012


Robindaybird posted:

Between here and the catpiss thread, wonder how much the Wizard supremacy problem would've been mitigated if they had tossed out the general class and made specialist classes the sole way to play Wizards - still a lot of access to powerful spells but they can't do all and be all.

I mean, I think it'd be a good way to rebuild classes. You can imagine the cries of unfairness from the other direction if you condensed all martial classes into one, like some kind of fighter-monk-rogue with all the benefits of all the subclasses, but with the caveat of "doesn't get fighter progression on feats". Hey if a magic man can do all magic, a physical man can do all physical right?

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

Angrymog posted:

Do you have the full write-up of the spell?

Also Greenwood seems to have a thing for stirges in stasis

Lessee:
Phezult's Sleep of Ages
(Alteration) Reversible
Level: 9
Components: V,S,M
Range: 1" per caster level
Casting Time: 3 rounds
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Negates
Area of Effect: All living creatures in range
Effect:
Creates a spherical stasis field, radiating outward through solid rock and other physical or magical barriers. Only Anti-Magic Shell, Prismatic Sphere, or enclosed Wall of Force effects will prevent the effect from penetrating. It expands 2" per round, until it reaches a radius of 1" per level of the caster.
Creatures entering the field after casting must make a saving throw or be affected by the stasis effect. Unlike other forms of temporal stasis, creatures affected can die as a result of physical injury or environmental changes. Creatures may be brought out of stasis by casting Temporal Reinstatement or the reverse of this spell, Phezult's Awakening.

That's slightly trimmed down; the full description is like two thirds of a page, with a whole paragraph on saving throw modifiers by relative level. Note also that those ranges are in scale inches.

The material component includes at least six gems of 500gp value; it doesn't say whether that's a total value, or each. The spell slowly consumes them like very expensive coal.

So not only did someone cast a potent as Hell spell on a single stirge, they blew an absurd amount of money on it too.

This is truly a wizard's shotgun moment.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.


Robindaybird posted:

Between here and the catpiss thread, wonder how much the Wizard supremacy problem would've been mitigated if they had tossed out the general class and made specialist classes the sole way to play Wizards - still a lot of access to powerful spells but they can't do all and be all.

I don't think there's really a way to mitigate it without acknowledging that the wizard plays a completely different game, with a different resolution system. One of the cores of wizard supremacy is that because they just declare what they're doing (and sometimes someone gets to try to negate it) they have fewer points where they roll dice, and thus fewer points in a sequence of events where they can fail, because the people who made 3e never actually worked out that requiring more rolls or steps drastically reduces probability of success.

E: It isn't so much the wide-ranging powers of wizards that's the problem (though they definitely are) but rather a mixture of wizard's actions being per-turn way more efficient (since they can often hit multiple targets, or one stun spell can take someone completely out of a fight, etc) and things like Knock where the wizard just goes 'I solve the problem' while the thief/rogue has to say 'I try to solve the problem', if that makes sense. Also, most campaigns don't play with the sheer amount of combat per session necessary to actually grind a wizard's resources down because that much D&D combat is a horrible nightmare. Oh, and the wizard's resources are linked to in-game time rather than 'per session', so you end up with the 15 minute adventuring day.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Oct 21, 2018

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.


Clapping Larry



The Fourth Seal (plus some other portents...)

On April Fools, 2003, the Fourth Seal, Death, is broken.

Message from the Emergency Broadcast System, 04-01-03 21:00

quote:

"...THIS IS NOT A TEST. REPEAT, THIS IS NOT A TEST. PREVAILING WEATHER CONDITIONS HAVE CARRIED THE JAPANESE BLOOD TOXIN TO THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AND WEST COAST REGIONS OF THE UNITED STATES.
CITIZENS OF WASHINGTON, OREGON, AND CALIFORNIA ARE URGED NOT TO USE ANY WATER FROM ANY NATURALLY OCCURRING SOURCE. MARTIAL LAW HAS BEEN DECLARED FOR THE WEST COAST AND THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST UNTIL EXTENSIVE TESTING CAN BE DONE ON THE WELLS AND RESERVOIRS SERVING THE REGION.
RESIDENTS OF THESE AREAS SHOULD USE ONLY BOTTLED OR DISTILLED WATER. RESIDENTS OF THE AFFLICTED AREAS SHOULD ALSO AVOID IMMERSION IN ANY OUTDOOR STANDING BODY OF WATER. STAY TUNED FOR FURTHER DETAILS.
THIS HAS BEEN THE EMERGENCY BROADCAST SYSTEM."

America had not been hit that hard except for a few plagues running up and down the East Coast and the whole lack of food thing that was now inspiring riots and martial law... The Fourth Horseman kicks it up a notch. A nasty and unexpected tropical storm system pushes the cult's Blood toxin across the Pacific and into America. It didn't dump it on the eastern coast of the Pacific, that would have kicked up the lack of food and killed off too many people too quickly...Remember the Revelations are all about making people suffer before the finale. It carried the poison inland before releasing it and when it touched down and reacted with the fertilizer to change into really persistent nerve gas-like bright red fog. It hovered in small mobile patches, killing over 11 million on the West Coast and Rocky Mountain area before spreading out, randomly killing as it passed. It quickly got nicknamed the 'Hand of God' and people were finally starting to clue in on what was happening.

Some more portents appear...

Babylon Falls

Los Angeles 911 Transcript 14-040403-916

quote:

Caller Unidentified
"Jesus Christ! It's all falling down! It's a roller coaster in your goddamn living room! Holy poo poo! It's all falling down. It's all going into the loving sea! Hail Mary! Mother Of God! HELP ME!"
Call Ends

The Big One hits the West Coast on April 4th. A Richter scale 17 quake centered on Hollywood shatters California and, in a method no one can understand, everything west of the San Andreas sinks into the ocean even though the actual topography does not seem to make that possible.

THE RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST

Now Satan had known this was coming and he wanted to push off the Daty of Judgment as much as possible because with no humanity and balance, how could he gain strength to defeat Heaven? His last stand was to manifest the power of the Antichrist in Gunther Hoelman, a German ambassador and newly elected Secretary General of the United Nations. He gave him the gift to make others listen and bend to his will.

Before everything was gone, Hoelman ordered the military forces of the world to "...terminate with extreme prejudice all peoples engaged in or encouraging the practice of any civilized religion," and pushed by the Satan's word, they did.

This action was carried out by all troops still alive and lasted for 42 days. hundreds of thousands were killed for simply praying for salvation. Stan's goal was to slow or stop the Apocalypse before it was too late by destroying the believers. It was too little, too late. Hoelman was shot and killed by a Jesuit priest who was immediately gunned down afterward without trying to escape.

THE THREE PENITENTS

On the same day Hoelman was killed, three men and a family committed a very strange set of suicides. The three men were former residents of Bellevue Hospital's long-term psychological ward and had been there as long as any of the staff could remember. They had somehow all left the secure ward and made their way to a statue of Jesus in Greenwich Village. They were waiting and praying then a police officer approached and spoke to them. As soon as they turned to go, one of the men produced a pistol and shot himself in the head with the other two following suit. The police officer did not hesitate but returned home took his family to the same statue and killed all of them before shooting himself as well.

Records of the three men indicated they had been committed when Bellevue was first constructed and their unusual lifespans had been completely overlooked by the staff over the years. The names they were listed under were
Cain, Cartaphilus, and Ahasuerus. (First Murderer, Pilate's Gatekeeper and the Wandering Jew).


The thing that really annoys me about this part is the sheer speed that all this occurs. Yes, the Revelations are supposed to be fast but all this bloodshed happens in less than four months. I do like some of the ideas, like Satan saying, 'I got to stop this or I am completely turbo-hosed' though.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.




Grimey Drawer

I have to admit, the three penitents were a cute touch.

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




The two poles of the Magic Problem have always been consequence free casting and spells that are too good for their opportunity cost, whether that be how long they take to cast or how many of them you have. Solving either one of those problems changes the situation dramatically.

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


Humbug Scoolbus posted:

The Big One hits the West Coast on April 4th. A Richter scale 17 quake centered on Hollywood shatters California and, in a method no one can understand, everything west of the San Andreas sinks into the ocean even though the actual topography does not seem to make that possible.

Not that I would expect RPG designers to be good at math, but a Richter scale 17 "earthquake" would be more like the Death Star shooting the planet; it's roughly 100x the energy needed to break the gravitational binding.

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.


Clapping Larry

Things I like about the first seals breaking; each of the Horsemen's effects builds on the previous Horsemen's attacks, Satan freaking out, the Three Penitents...

wdarkk posted:

Not that I would expect RPG designers to be good at math, but a Richter scale 17 "earthquake" would be more like the Death Star shooting the planet; it's roughly 100x the energy needed to break the gravitational binding.

That is why I bolded the number.

Deptfordx
Dec 23, 2013



Dawgstar posted:

Which carried over to 3E, where I remember a bit from the 'how to build characters' book that had a mild stroke at the mere thought of a dwarf wizard.

I'm away from my books but I'd swear Dwarf Wizards were a thing in 3E.

Hostile V
May 30, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.



My man Satan representing my community of people who are bad at tactical Paragames and Civ and accidentally pop their elite unit to do something kneejerk and dumb only to be swallowed by the crushing weight of the other players regardless.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017





Deptfordx posted:

I'm away from my books but I'd swear Dwarf Wizards were a thing in 3E.

Oh, they could be the wizards in 3E but the Hero Builder's Guidebook sure made it sound like you had some nerve for the thought of it.

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007

IT *BZZT* WASP ME--
IT WASP ME ALL *BZZT* ALONG!




That's the best that the Prince of darkness got? They could have gone the whole "last kingdom on earth" route and actually have is debate if being ruled by the antichrist is better than just submitting.

Are they actively choosing the most boring timeline?

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



Given that god's game plan is "cause as much suffering as possible to as many people as possible", the antichrist could make a pretty solid claim to be Team Good Guy and to represent the last resistance against Team Evil.

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.


Clapping Larry

Satan got even more hosed than the Bible says he will and yeah, in comparison what God's doing makes Hell look like amateur hour.

Also, I'll just leave this here...

http://www.electricsheepcomix.com/apocamon/

Barudak
May 7, 2007



The Lone Badger posted:

Given that god's game plan is "cause as much suffering as possible to as many people as possible", the antichrist could make a pretty solid claim to be Team Good Guy and to represent the last resistance against Team Evil.

Thats basically what happens in revelations as well. God gets back up to their old testament tricks.

Sage Genesis
Aug 14, 2014



Then I'll leave...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIY41LrvMFQ

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

This is all just wasted potential, because they didn't solve the God problem. God is boring. Like turbo superman without Kryptonite. Every single heavenly plot succeeds flawlessly, every single opposition is crushed without effort or consequence. Humanity's ability to study and counteract diseases should make for an interesting competition with Pestilence, but no the poisons are instantly fatal and the entire CDC died. Let Earth's ludicrously overbuilt war machine shoot at angels and demons, let psychology evaluations carefully identify the influences of War to stop inter-human conflicts from erupting. But no, he's got perfect mind control and there's no chance of successful armed resistance. It's just careening down the most boring possible path towards an inevitable "postapocalyptic survival game WITH CROSSES"

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.


Clapping Larry

Yep, God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, and the Book of Revalations hammers that point in, in every verse.

This game is Christapocapunk like I said before, so of course, it's going to be post-apocalyptic which means when the game starts, the actual main portion of the apocalypse is over. You want a game that's not that, try Armageddon which does let you fight the hordes as they try to take over the Earth. I may review that one after this.

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007



Although you could make a game of a desperate group of survivors trying to reach the promised land they've heard of on the radio broadcasts, the last nation on earth, the bastion of the Antichrist.

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.


Clapping Larry

In Armageddon, the forces of Hell are allied with humanity and the forces of Heaven to fight off something even worse.

Kaza42
Oct 3, 2013

Blood and Souls and all that

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

Yep, God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, and the Book of Revalations hammers that point in, in every verse.

This game is Christapocapunk like I said before, so of course, it's going to be post-apocalyptic which means when the game starts, the actual main portion of the apocalypse is over. You want a game that's not that, try Armageddon which does let you fight the hordes as they try to take over the Earth. I may review that one after this.

I don't doubt that it's decently theologically sound, I just contend that it's bad game design. Fighting an unstoppable villain is boring, you're guaranteed to lose and you won't even achieve anything doing it. Even postapocalyptic games need some sort of goal or thing to work towards. I dunno, maybe this is all sorted out in the mechanics section. It wouldn't be the first game that spends too much time on the backstory only to pivot to a decent system

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Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



I'm getting the distinct sense that you aren't intended to fight God in The End. All of this poo poo is just backstory that I get the sense is not actually relevant to the day-to-day work of the PCs.

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