Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
Strange Matter
Oct 6, 2009

Ask me about Genocide

unseenlibrarian posted:

Uld also make pretty good villains, since they're basically Prosperity Gospel assholes who sincerely believe the poor are poor because of moral failings and they have a right to drive the Truil out of their already crappy land because if the Truils were truly good people they wouldn't be scratching out a subsistence level existence in a sunless wasteland.
This works even better when you factor in their flamboyant fashion, which is soooo far beyond what the rest of the Nations dress like that it borders on alien. It's described as an "arms race of elaboration within the Weavers and Woodcarvers’ Guild", which inevitably would lead to the 1600s nonsense of towering wigs and cravats. You could pretty easily turn them into something like the Capitol from Hunger Games.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Doodmons
Jan 17, 2009
Beasts are definitely the antagonists from someone else's book that somehow got lost and ended up with their own splat. It's like a comedy sketch where they're on stage in the spotlight while the director keeps making the "keep going" gesture from the wings, and they keep trotting out more and more abhorrent things as justifications for why you should play as them, then abruptly switch tack and lamely try to pretend that they're the good guys.

Seriously, when you compare the Strix and Beasts you can pretty much go "both of these splats are pure, unrepentent evil for the hell of it" but at least the Strix have class. Beasts are just petty.

unseenlibrarian posted:

Uld also make pretty good villains, since they're basically Prosperity Gospel assholes who sincerely believe the poor are poor because of moral failings and they have a right to drive the Truil out of their already crappy land because if the Truils were truly good people they wouldn't be scratching out a subsistence level existence in a sunless wasteland.

When I ran a Reign campaign, Imperial nobles largely used Uldholm as a justification for their continued divine right to rule. Commoners obviously can't be trusted to rule over themselves, they have absolutely no sense of noblesse oblige and let their brethren starve in the streets after taking everything away from them. Commoners over in the Empire don't have any rights, but at least we feed and clothe them and give them places to sleep and meaningful work. One of the things I like about Reign is that depending on where you're standing, any of the nations can either be the definite good guys or absolute monsters. Uldholm are a socially progressive, forward thinking people who also crush their own poor and are committing genocide against their neighbours. Dindavara are a militaristic hegemony where commoners are barely considered people who also happen to have strong traditions of honour, brotherhood, chivalry and benevolence. The Truils are cannibal barbarians who probably value the family unit and human life more than any other nation. The Empire are backstabbing, corrupt and incompetent but also value social stability and quality of life for everyone under their rule. Even the Opetkans, who are basically Sparta on PCP and are world leaders in the assassination and espionage business, or the Upunzi who are governed by literal eye eating vampires have their redeeming features.

As far as bad guys in the setting go, it's basically the Lightless Jungle, Demons and maybe the laser desert.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

While I work on the next Torg post, I went to Ulisses Spiele's website and saw this on the Torg: Eternity page:

quote:

Streamlined, updated version of the original system
Good lord I hope that's true.

e: I also hope that if there are any realm-specific rules in the core book instead of the cosm books, which GMs may or may not have.

Evil Mastermind fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Apr 26, 2016

Hypocrisy
Oct 4, 2006
Lord of Sarcasm

The health inspector Beast sounds like he would be fun to play.

lifg
Dec 4, 2000
<this tag left blank>
Muldoon
What would a session of playing beast look like? Does the book give some adventure seeds in the back?

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

lifg posted:

What would a session of playing beast look like? Does the book give some adventure seeds in the back?

Yes, and most of the plot hooks are fairly beast-agnostic, and would fit just as well in a Blue Book horror game or a game of Werewolf. The only ones that don't have <Insert Villain Here> replaced with "Hero". Several of them rely on the kind of interconnected supernatural underworld that Beast presents as a fact, but that doesn't necessarily require the existence of beasts as go-betweens.

Bedlamdan
Apr 25, 2008
Beast's fiction anthology comes out soon, everyone get hype :toot:

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Bedlamdan posted:

Beast's fiction anthology comes out soon, everyone get hype :toot:

Begone from my sight, Satan. I name thee Temptation.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009


Kurieg posted:

Begone from my sight, Satan. I name thee Temptation.

I name you a chicken :smug:.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

Kurieg posted:

I'm sorry but What the gently caress!? So yeah somewhere there's a Beast that goes around to Fast Food employees and terrorizes them into not trying to find another job because they're just not good enough. And apparently there's a Beast somewhere who would view the Special Olympics as an absolute loving smorgasbord.

So these kinds of Beast are essentially edgy Pretty Cure villains? Especially Dys Dark, who are all about "Dreams are rubbish!"?

Kaza42 posted:

"The God-Machine interferes in our lives. It is unnknowable, untouchable, and unkillable. Or so we thought, for so long. I believe otherwise. I have studied these monsters that infest our society, the vampires, werewolves, witches, and other stranger creatures. I am assembling a task force, comprised of the worst, most powerful monsters we have ever captured. They will be set to the task of dismantling this God-Machine piece by piece, using every twisted method they can think of. They will have to operate separate from us, so that the God-Machine agents within our organization cannot stop them. They will cause untold damage, murder and mayhem but - and I truly believe this - it will be worth it. We will be free, ladies and gentlemen, free from the yoke of this God even if we must make a deal with the Devil. We will form the Deicide Squad"

And the 90's supplement will introduce the teams Blood God, God Death and Young Satan.

Cythereal posted:

Too much a problem with differing power levels, I suspect.

That never stopped the Justice League. In the face of a crisis, the weaker ones suddenly turn into Batman.

Keiya posted:

The probable reason they didn't is that the charm writer was paid by the word... and was also the guy in charge of the whole book, so he forced everyone to scrunch down as he wrote more and more useless charms.

I have a feling this Charm writer might've been very active during the D&D 3.X days, hammering out book after book full of Feats...

NutritiousSnack posted:

In a game where the protagonists where supposed to be feminist/activist minorities and the "heroes" were supposed to be MRA 4chan gamergator redditor KKK trolls, at the end of the book you get 100% behind the guys ranting about how Israel deserves to wiped off the map.

This is also the Bella Magum problem again. How the hell do you write an RPG about your (more or less radical) agenda and end up with something that justifies the other side? How does that even work?

Doresh fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Apr 26, 2016

Zereth
Jul 9, 2003



Doresh posted:

This is also the Bella Magum problem again. How the hell do you write an RPG about your (more or less radical) agenda and end up with something that justifies the other side? How does that even happen?
In Bellum Maga's case it's because the agenda is actually camouflage for the fetish material.

In Beast's case, I suspect it's because they spilled a lot of revenge fantasy in by accident and the thing curdled and they're refusing to recognize that they have in fact made something entirely opposed to their point.

Bedlamdan
Apr 25, 2008

Kurieg posted:

Begone from my sight, Satan. I name thee Temptation.

Who would not be tempted by Beast the Primordial?

Zereth posted:

In Beast's case, I suspect it's because they spilled a lot of revenge fantasy in by accident and the thing curdled and they're refusing to recognize that they have in fact made something entirely opposed to their point.

If you're writing a game where heroic unprivileged Beasts fight against cis-white-male Hunters, of course you're going to write it so that the former can do no wrong while the latter are composed of twisted sociopaths. Because that is about where the level of discourse is IRL too.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Zereth posted:

In Beast's case, I suspect it's because they spilled a lot of revenge fantasy in by accident and the thing curdled and they're refusing to recognize that they have in fact made something entirely opposed to their point.

Acceptance, Family, and Belonging. These were the ingredients chosen to create the perfect roleplaying game. But Matt McFarland accidentally added an extra ingredient to the concoction.
REVENGE FANTASY
Thus Beast: The Primordial was born! Using their somewhat offensive symbolism. Beasts devoted their lives to making Men's Right Activists look good, and bringing down the trans community by association!
Theme music plays

Terrible Opinions
Oct 18, 2013



Even if it was a revenger fantasy you could do it well. Almost all of the monsters in greek mythology would easily be repurposed into fully legitimate protagonists. You are hated by the universal narrative because of what you were born as/something that happened to you/a belief you hold, time to fight back against that narrative. Make the narrative itself the villain not people who are created by the beast. You could have the God Machine turning random civies into "heroes" ala agents from the matrix. You need to kill the "real" them not the skin suit they're wearing. You could even have something where convincing people to give up hateful ideas makes them immune to "herofication". Even beyond this the end game goal could be to defeat the forces of the narrative itself not just the hero footsoldiers, the narrators and gods of the story if you will. So if you're medusa you don't stop as beating Perseus you go past that to murder the gently caress out of Athena and Poseidon.

If this is incoherent i apologize for my lack of sleep.

Tasoth
Dec 13, 2011
"I am a teacher. I will teach you that you are not stronger than me, that you cannot stop me. You will learn that each day I haven't noticed you is a gift from me."

Jesus Christ, beast. Please stop. The best outcome would be for the beasts to remind common humanity that we are exceedingly, exceptionally good at exterminating things that threaten us. Just ask most predators, small pox and things that threaten our livestock.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Tasoth posted:

"I am a teacher. I will teach you that you are not stronger than me, that you cannot stop me. You will learn that each day I haven't noticed you is a gift from me."

Jesus Christ, beast. Please stop. The best outcome would be for the beasts to remind common humanity that we are exceedingly, exceptionally good at exterminating things that threaten us. Just ask most predators, small pox and things that threaten our livestock.

This gameline already exists and is called Hunter.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.
I mean I already had the theory that every kind of Hunter represents a nagging fear that the monsters have. The Union being the fear that 'holy poo poo these people aren't actually sheep after all' or VASCU being the fear that maybe, just maybe, all your magic powers don't actually make you special or above the law, or Cheiran representing the fear that someday someone's going to treat you like you treated humans.

I'm going to need to run Hunter some day.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
It really is something that this has basically seen people go "you know what was good, hunter was good. Lets get back together and set fire to beasts"

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten

Night10194 posted:

I mean I already had the theory that every kind of Hunter represents a nagging fear that the monsters have. The Union being the fear that 'holy poo poo these people aren't actually sheep after all' or VASCU being the fear that maybe, just maybe, all your magic powers don't actually make you special or above the law, or Cheiran representing the fear that someday someone's going to treat you like you treated humans.

I'm going to need to run Hunter some day.

Yeah all this is making me want to play Hunter.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Night10194 posted:

I mean I already had the theory that every kind of Hunter represents a nagging fear that the monsters have. The Union being the fear that 'holy poo poo these people aren't actually sheep after all' or VASCU being the fear that maybe, just maybe, all your magic powers don't actually make you special or above the law, or Cheiran representing the fear that someday someone's going to treat you like you treated humans.

I'm going to need to run Hunter some day.

Oh, this is fun to think about.

Malleus Maleficarum: God really does exist, and He hates you.

Aegis Kai Doru: Mundane mortals are older than you and know more about magic than you do.

Ascending Ones: Human vice, so often your cover, bites back.

Task Force Valkyrie: You're not above the law after all.

The Lucifuge: The devil is real, and you're nothing but a bug to be squashed to him.

Ashwood Abbey: You're nothing but entertainment to humanity.

The Long Night: The apocalypse is here, and you're on the losing side.

Null Mysteriis: Humans can figure out how you tick and get better at being you than you are.

Network Zero: You are being watched every second of your life.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Bedlamdan posted:

If you're writing a game where heroic unprivileged Beasts fight against cis-white-male Hunters, of course you're going to write it so that the former can do no wrong while the latter are composed of twisted sociopaths. Because that is about where the level of discourse is IRL too.

Except that's not the way it is. That's the way Matt wanted it to be, but that's not the way the rules of CofD work.

Chiefly, Integrity is not a good/evil scale the way that Humanity was. It's a measure of how well 'put together' your self image is. You get breaking points when you murder and are exposed to the supernatural because those are usually things outside of your self image, but you can instead incorporate those things into yourself and build your integrity back up. But the kind of people at level 1-3 integrity aren't "evil", they're extremely broken. They are barely in control of their own lives, if at all, because they don't know who they are anymore. And then a beast comes along and turns them into a Hero, and they're told who they are. And of course they don't question it, of course they don't look back, because now they have a purpose and it is 100% crystal clear. Anything and Everything are permissible in pursuit of that goal.

But you know who does have a choice? Beasts. Each and every one of them chose to be what they are, each and every one of them chooses how to feed. But that doesn't really matter because in the long run, eventually every Beast will make a hero. Every Beast will rip away someone's life and replace it with something that hates them because they chose to be a monster.

So when all of the imagery of trans culture and acceptance are applied to Beasts and not Heroes? That's horrific. And you know who chose to do that? Matt.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Cythereal posted:

The Lucifuge: The devil is real, and you're nothing but a bug to be squashed to him.

I always took them as more of 'Yes, I, too, have evil powers and a heritage of horror. Do you know what I didn't do? Use it as an excuse to do anything you did.'

Basically more of 'Free will exists and you always had a choice, too.'

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Night10194 posted:

I always took them as more of 'Yes, I, too, have evil powers and a heritage of horror. Do you know what I didn't do? Use it as an excuse to do anything you did.'

Basically more of 'Free will exists and you always had a choice, too.'

My take is more "You think you're evil? You think you're bad? Here's the genuine article, and you're nothing but an insect to him."

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.

Both are pretty good takes on the Lucifuge, and the fan splat I made (Supernatural version of Murder, Inc.) would be "We may be crooks and criminals, but we don't gently caress people over just for giggles."

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.
I mean the entire theme of the World of Darkness is 'The world is cruel and dark but you don't have to be and that is, in fact, no excuse to be.'

Precambrian
Apr 30, 2008

Kurieg posted:

So... the Tyrant feeds by basically kidnapping people, and dumping them in the bad part of town? How does that exude an aura of power, or anything other than 'Cabbies are dicks'? Also wouldn't he have your medallion number? Aren't there any number of other reasons this is an incredibly stupid and bad idea?

I brought this up in the WoD thread when it first came out, but the cabbie Beast is using an actual child abuse tactic. You drop off the child in a dangerous, unfamiliar, or otherwise scary space, and then swoop in to "rescue" them to reassert that you are their "protector," as well as to emphasize your total control over their safety and well-being. It's written in a trivial way (even though he basically sets up encounters between Trayvon Martins and George Zimmermans, which is loving troubling), but it's actually one of the more hosed-up things a Beast does to feed.

Bedlamdan
Apr 25, 2008

Kurieg posted:

Except that's not the way it is. That's the way Matt wanted it to be, but that's not the way the rules of CofD work.

Chiefly, Integrity is not a good/evil scale the way that Humanity was. It's a measure of how well 'put together' your self image is. You get breaking points when you murder and are exposed to the supernatural because those are usually things outside of your self image, but you can instead incorporate those things into yourself and build your integrity back up. But the kind of people at level 1-3 integrity aren't "evil", they're extremely broken. They are barely in control of their own lives, if at all, because they don't know who they are anymore. And then a beast comes along and turns them into a Hero, and they're told who they are. And of course they don't question it, of course they don't look back, because now they have a purpose and it is 100% crystal clear. Anything and Everything are permissible in pursuit of that goal.

But you know who does have a choice? Beasts. Each and every one of them chose to be what they are, each and every one of them chooses how to feed. But that doesn't really matter because in the long run, eventually every Beast will make a hero. Every Beast will rip away someone's life and replace it with something that hates them because they chose to be a monster.

So when all of the imagery of trans culture and acceptance are applied to Beasts and not Heroes? That's horrific. And you know who chose to do that? Matt.

Yeah, it really ruins the metaphor when Beasts get a say and Heroes don't, and using mentally damaged people as stand ins for whatever cyber-troll is insulting for everyone. It fails to maintain the idea that Beasts are correct and Heroes are bad.

I think, also, that even attempting to have an unambiguous good and an unambiguous evil is something that doesn't work well in WoD.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Precambrian posted:

I brought this up in the WoD thread when it first came out, but the cabbie Beast is using an actual child abuse tactic. You drop off the child in a dangerous, unfamiliar, or otherwise scary space, and then swoop in to "rescue" them to reassert that you are their "protector," as well as to emphasize your total control over their safety and well-being. It's written in a trivial way (even though he basically sets up encounters between Trayvon Martins and George Zimmermans, which is loving troubling), but it's actually one of the more hosed-up things a Beast does to feed.
You know, I was about to ask "who the hell is Beast actually for", but I think you may have just answered at least part of that.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009


Bedlamdan posted:

I think, also, that even attempting to have an unambiguous good and an unambiguous evil is something that doesn't work well in WoD.

Absolutely. I would just be treating this as a book of vile motherfuckers for a Werewolf pack to tear apart or Valkyrie to fill full of lead if it weren't for the tone and writing designating the good guys and bad guys in such a wrongheaded way.

Evil Mastermind posted:

You know, I was about to ask "who the hell is Beast actually for", but I think you may have just answered at least part of that.

Yeah, I'm starting to feel less like Matt McFarland wrote something very personal that he can't see the flaws in and more like he might have some serious problems.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Kavak posted:

Yeah, I'm starting to feel less like Matt McFarland wrote something very personal that he can't see the flaws in and more like he might have some serious problems.
I mean, so much of Beast seems to be veering really close to just being "She Was Asking For It: the RPG".

I mean, beating your kid to "toughen them up" is an actual form of loving abuse, and a bunch of these splats seem to be doing just that, only with random strangers.

NutritiousSnack
Jul 12, 2011

Bedlamdan posted:

Yeah, it really ruins the metaphor when Beasts get a say and Heroes don't, and using mentally damaged people as stand ins for whatever cyber-troll is insulting for everyone. It fails to maintain the idea that Beasts are correct and Heroes are bad.

The problem is even on a conceptional level, the design decisions don't work. You can make a good game beatin' on weak strawman of whatever political stripe but a horror game? Horror rely on tension, and while your actions/mistakes creating an antagonist for you is interesting and good in creating tension, it's important in how your actions get there. So either you make your a real monster (what happened here) or you need another antagonist group pushing your character into extreme actions. Especially one where an organization of "heroes" or powerful nonreactionary and "radical"/ones who set the agenda or drive the plot forward in a setting don't exist. You run into the Geist problem of "what is the point"?

And then there's the problem where unambiguous evil doesn't make sense in the setting. Even Slahsers illicit sympathy and nearly all the game lines get you behind the "bad guys" eyes to humanize them.

NutritiousSnack fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Apr 26, 2016

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Evil Mastermind posted:

I mean, so much of Beast seems to be veering really close to just being "She Was Asking For It: the RPG".

I mean, beating your kid to "toughen them up" is an actual form of loving abuse, and a bunch of these splats seem to be doing just that, only with random strangers.

Doesn't that also really make Heroes the good guys? Good job, Beasts, you've toughened humanity up. To the point that they're killing you.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Evil Mastermind posted:

I mean, so much of Beast seems to be veering really close to just being "She Was Asking For It: the RPG".

I mean, beating your kid to "toughen them up" is an actual form of loving abuse, and a bunch of these splats seem to be doing just that, only with random strangers.

Well that and there's so many different ways the game frames the abuse.

If you're a young beast and you're abused it's because you're different and they don't understand how special you are.
If you're someone being abused by a beast it's because you deserve it and it will make you a better person.
If you're someone being abused by a beast and you fight back or go on to abuse others then you're a horrible monster who deserves to be killed.

The game is basically telling kids that if you're getting beat up on that you should just take it because odds are you're not one of the special people who are actually allowed to become an abuser. And as someone who was bullied on a near daily basis in school, had limbs broken, and was told by the teachers it was my fault for standing out? This isn't empowering, this is infuriating.

Bedlamdan
Apr 25, 2008

Kavak posted:

Absolutely. I would just be treating this as a book of vile motherfuckers for a Werewolf pack to tear apart or Valkyrie to fill full of lead if it weren't for the tone and writing designating the good guys and bad guys in such a wrongheaded way.


Yeah, I'm starting to feel less like Matt McFarland wrote something very personal that he can't see the flaws in and more like he might have some serious problems.

Yeah. And I mean, you totally can have something that only provides evil and suffering in WoD, True Fae have basically no redeeming characteristics in nChangeling. But Changelings aren't an unambiguous good: they all have the potential to turn into True Fae themselves, there are Changelings who sell out other Changelings, and they can and maybe even do gently caress up other people's lives in an effort to not go back to Arcadia. Because Fae are monsters and Changelings are people for better or worse.

Neither Beasts nor Heroes get written like they're people in this book. They're both extended metaphors for something else.

Speaking of which is the part where Beasts are buddy-buddy with the Fae intact? :stare:

Zereth
Jul 9, 2003



Cythereal posted:

Doesn't that also really make Heroes the good guys? Good job, Beasts, you've toughened humanity up. To the point that they're killing you.

The only lesson that Beasts seem to consistently teach people is "Beasts need to be killed".

Which, to be fair, is an accurate lesson.

NutritiousSnack
Jul 12, 2011

Bedlamdan posted:

Yeah. And I mean, you totally can have something that only provides evil and suffering in WoD, True Fae have basically no redeeming characteristics in nChangeling. But Changelings aren't an unambiguous good: they all have the potential to turn into True Fae themselves, there are Changelings who sell out other Changelings, and they can and maybe even do gently caress up other people's lives in an effort to not go back to Arcadia. Because Fae are monsters and Changelings are people for better or worse.

Neither Beasts nor Heroes get written like they're people in this book. They're both extended metaphors for something else.

Speaking of which is the part where Beasts are buddy-buddy with the Fae intact? :stare:

The thing is though, in this description, Fae are forces of nature or trauma personified. Not "people" that had childhood or are supposed to have jobs that last from "9 to 5 but the drat boss keeps them until 7 with no overtime pay". They exist to create scenarios that cause Changeling's to make their own messes and deal with the consequences of. "Heroes" are human beings, with accidentally completely justifiable motives "reacting" to the needles cruelty the player characters do, and don't pose much of a threat.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Bedlamdan posted:

Speaking of which is the part where Beasts are buddy-buddy with the Fae intact? :stare:

Yes. Although the Changeling crossover blurb states that Beasts find the True Fae unnerving since they don't have dreams that Beasts can penetrate.

Conversely the changeling crossover blurb also states that "Unlike Beasts, changelings are made, not born" because Matt still wants to stick it to Rich.

Bedlamdan
Apr 25, 2008

NutritiousSnack posted:

The thing is though, in this description, Fae are forces of nature or trauma personified. Not "people" that had childhood or are supposed to have jobs that last from "9 to 5 but the drat boss keeps them until 7 with no overtime pay". They exist to create scenarios that cause Changeling's to make their own messes and deal with the consequences of. "Heroes" are human beings, with accidentally completely justifiable motives "reacting" to the needles cruelty the player characters do, and don't pose much of a threat.

From what I understand, the only shot they have at harming a Beast is inflicting a weakness on the Beast, which only occurs if the Beast ever manages to gently caress up in a way a PC never would?

Heroes are basically Bulk & Skull.

I Am Just a Box
Jul 20, 2011
I belong here. I contain only inanimate objects. Nothing is amiss.

Kavak posted:

Absolutely. I would just be treating this as a book of vile motherfuckers for a Werewolf pack to tear apart or Valkyrie to fill full of lead if it weren't for the tone and writing designating the good guys and bad guys in such a wrongheaded way.

The parallels to real life abuse and abuse apologism, whether intentional or a horrid, awful accident, prevent me from even wanting to use Beasts as vile motherfuckers to visit vengeance on, yeah. They're so on the nose that it just feels like sinking to their level to even acknowledge them; they just don't make a game more fun in any way that isn't outdone by whatever the hell else you want to visit vengeance on. Crazy werewolf, brutish slasher, fanatical vampire, you can enjoy visiting some imaginary street justice on them. Beasts aren't even fun to hate, just unpleasant.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
I could respect Beasts a little if the idea of Heroes and normal people abused by a Beast turning on and killing the Beast was presented as the natural and logical end to them: they're there to make humanity, or even just individual humans, tough and strong enough to fight and kill the things that prey on them. You are unapologetically an abuser and monster, but you're a failure if you don't end up decorating a Hunter's trophy room.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5