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Lovecraft was totally racist but y'all are talking like every single story is about how Jews have tentacles. If you're avoiding any and all Yog-Sothothery, it's probably because it's just extremely overused and boring.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:24
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That's both untrue and unfair. Some of it is about how the poors have tentacles.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:27
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Serf posted:You tell those people: it's the Mythos, I ain't gotta explain poo poo. That still leaves me not wanting to deal with the legacy of Lovecraft. There's just no getting around it. To me CTech takes a dumb die mechanic (which I did once think was pretty cool but I know better now), adds a healthy dash of sexism and rape stuff, and then finishes it off with a mythos I actively dislike. It's like trying to fix a stool with a broken leg but all three legs are broken and also it's the poop kind of stool. That said I am willing to accept that mythos just isn't for me, and subsequently shut up about it. Halloween Jack posted:Lovecraft was totally racist but y'all are talking like every single story is about how Jews have tentacles. If you're avoiding any and all Yog-Sothothery, it's probably because it's just extremely overused and boring. Nah, it's that the author thought Jews have tentacles (or at least he was incensed at the idea they'd be allowed at the beach). If I found out David Duke was writing Yokai Watch under a pen name, I would dump that poo poo. I wouldn't hem and haw about how some of cat ghosts aren't racist in execution and besides they're so cute. theironjef fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 18:29
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Serf posted:Mythos stuff owns. I would make the deep ones sympathetic. That story was a smear job.  But also make the male Deep Ones look like Abe Sapien and the creature from The Shape Of Water and the female Deep Ones like the Mutio (both forms) from Blue Sub No. 6 or the various fishy women that get involved with Link in the more recent Zelda games.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:34
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theironjef posted:Yes! Exactly. People keep thinking it's disingenuous to suggest a fix for CTech that's "take the mythos out of there," but I'm being earnest. If I were fixing it, I'd be removing mythos, because I find it overrated, troublingly connected to a legacy of racism, and worry that it'd be impossible to run without people running in at dead sprints from the streets to well actually at me about how Hastur wouldn't do that. Putting in some less famous brain-rattling space monsters is a literal fix to my concerns. That's the annoying thing about talking about how to run Lovecraftesque stuff in RPGs. On one hand, the best way to do that is to not use any actual Lovecraft stuff because that stuff has more iffy implications than you'd want and is generally documented to hell and back so you can't surprise anyone. That's why all the good modern Lovecraft RPGs do a bunch of weird stuff with it. (Trail of Cthulu gives a bunch of alternate versions of each major god that you can use or ignore, Breakfast Cult does weird anime cosmic horror stuff but cordones off all the Cthulu stuff to it's own book and does it's own thing in the core, etc.) On the other hand, just saying that has a real "if you want to play this, I recommend playing literally anything else instead  " vibe and it makes me want to tell people to gently caress off immediately no matter how right they are.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:36
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Mors Rattus posted:I have some vague sketches of ideas for a Dinotopia RPG but it wouldn't involve fighting very much. I can't remember much of Dinotopia, but I feel like maybe hacking Ryuutama might be a good idea?
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Jan 18, 2018 18:37
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I do remember reading "Facts Concerning the Late Arthur Jermyn and His Family" as a kid and thinking that the story was kinda funny because the central character was obviously such an insane racist.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:43
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Lurks With Wolves posted:On the other hand, just saying that has a real "if you want to play this, I recommend playing literally anything else instead Eh, I'd be grumpy with myself if I realized the reason I was supporting the works of some obvious well-documented racist is because some stranger had the gall to suggest I maybe shouldn't. But I figure that's true of you and everyone else in here. I can see the tone argument working for maybe an hour and then people should come around and say "Well, that rear end in a top hat is right about that other rear end in a top hat." Also I do recommend playing literally anything else. Because once you strip out mythos what's in CTech? Oh right rape stuff. Okay, but if I scrape that off? Race stuff. Okay sure but I REALLY want to play as mecha pilots fighting Cthulhu so I'll just also scrape that off. And what's left? A collection of mechanics that don't do a very good job of supporting the plan to beat up Cthulhu in a robot suit. Start from first principles. What's a game that supports mecha combat well? Statting out goopy horrors is the easy part. Eh, I'm getting more worked up about this than is strictly necessary. Mythos isn't as bad as all that. theironjef fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 18:44
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Leraika posted:I can't remember much of Dinotopia, but I feel like maybe hacking Ryuutama might be a good idea? Yeah - you know, Ryuutama would fit the feel of Dinotopia.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:56
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Is Call of Cthulu bad? As in both mechanically and ethically, I always thought it was seemed a little fun and didn't delve as deep into the creepy racisms of the mythos.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:56
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Josef bugman posted:Is Call of Cthulu bad? As in both mechanically and ethically, I always thought it was seemed a little fun and didn't delve as deep into the creepy racisms of the mythos. Most stuff either stays away from the racist aspects of Lovecraft's work or, more unfortunately, fails to understand that the material is racist. I still have my CoC d20 book with the tcho-tcho and that was released in 2001. The upshot is that no matter what you do you're not putting money in Lovecraft's pocket since all his poo poo is public domain and also he died alone.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:00
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Leraika posted:I can't remember much of Dinotopia, but I feel like maybe hacking Ryuutama might be a good idea? That might work actually, I had original book, and a couple of the spin off YA novels, taken as is, Dinotopia is a very chill setting with some lurking dangers, which fits Ryuutama's low-key feel.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:08
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I feel like maybe I should clarify, I actually love Lovercraft and Howard and Burroughs, but my fave is problematic. I don't think that disqualify them from modern media, but it's part of the legacy that every work carries, and has to be dealt with (even if you deal with it by ignoring it and excising any mention). I just feel that mentioning Aurthur Jermyn really helps to contextualize Lovecraft and his derivatives.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:09
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Robindaybird posted:That might work actually, I had original book, and a couple of the spin off YA novels, taken as is, Dinotopia is a very chill setting with some lurking dangers, which fits Ryuutama's low-key feel. I should note that the lurking dangers include crazy guys piloting secret ancient underground robots, a civilization of Troodon not-Klingons, and a small empire in the southeast which has Shaolin Deinonychus monks. Of those, the first and third are from the illustrated books, the Troodons are from the YA novels. Also there were two actual full-length adult novels. I still haven't gotten my hands on those.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:18
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Josef bugman posted:Is Call of Cthulu bad? As in both mechanically and ethically, I always thought it was seemed a little fun and didn't delve as deep into the creepy racisms of the mythos. It's not really possible to ignore all the hints of racism in Lovecraft's universe, so the RPG necessarily can't, but for the most part it's not really something that's going to be an issue from the game's side unless you use critical theory as a magnifying glass to burn holes in the concepts. (Mostly because CoC uses generic "cultists" that are never described much, letting the reader mentally brush over how in the original stories the cultists were invariably not white. The CoC conception of a cultist is more of a suburban white person who happens to secretly worship Yog-Sothoth, probably drawing upon the Satanic Panic more than Lovecraft's stories.) That said, there's something of a sorry tendency for the game to lend itself to colonial, racist narratives of white civilization being threatened by the blasphemous religious practices of people who aren't white - both enabled by a fair number of official scenarios and by being set in the same fictional milieu as a bunch of other racist stuff. Take Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom as an example: it's pretty racist, and so it's very easy to let that kind of thing inspire you to run a game of CoC with racist overtones even as CoC itself avoids that racism because that's the cultural reference we have for the 20s and 30s. Mechanically it's not a good game but it's very simple and unobtrusive, which alleviates the problems. The structure of the game and the culture that has arisen around it also help alleviate these problems; while the game doesn't have anything like "fail forward" mechanics, the people who play CoC have often encouraged it in scenario design and the investigative structure encourages it.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:35
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theironjef posted:Yes! Exactly. People keep thinking it's disingenuous to suggest a fix for CTech that's "take the mythos out of there," but I'm being earnest. If I were fixing it, I'd be removing mythos, because I find it overrated, troublingly connected to a legacy of racism, and worry that it'd be impossible to run without people running in at dead sprints from the streets to well actually at me about how Hastur wouldn't do that. Putting in some less famous brain-rattling space monsters is a literal fix to my concerns. The problem was your suggestion wasn't "Replace it with something else that gets the same Mythos feeling," it was "go do something entirely different." It's fine for it to be something you don't like. It's fine for it to be something you're not interested in playing or dealing with. You are not required to like it. But there are plenty of people who like Lovecraft's stuff for non-racist reasons. There are ways to interact with his stuff that addresses the racism and still leaves in things that people find interesting, like the Yith body-swapping, the Mi-Go brain-stealing, the weird monsters. Sometimes it's to face the racism directly, as in Matt Ruff's Lovecraft Country or Ruthanna Emrys's Winter Tide. Sometimes it's to remove the racist elements entirely. And yes, both of these require acknowledging the racism in the original works. I understand if that's not something you have any interest in dealing with. But you're acting like the people who do are bad people for wanting to do something interesting with it, as though none of us were acknowledging Lovecraft's racism, or that we were approaching it uncritically. We're not denying the racism in the original stuff, or trying to paper it over. But there are plenty of elements in the Mythos, especially as it's evolved over time, that aren't inherently racist. It's like saying that anyone who writes Sword and Sorcery is bad and stupid for wanting to do so because the Conan stories were super racist. Because while using a lot of the tropes from Howard's work uncritically leads to racism in the story, the genre has also evolved from where it began. Or to use a conceit I know you like, pulp adventure stories, the kind that inspired Indiana Jones and, yes, Talespin. The original stories are full of racism, with stupid minority sidekicks, superstitious tribes, and a basic assumption that anything of value rightfully belonged to white people ("It belongs in a museum!"). But the roots of the genre doesn't mean you can't do non-racist pulp stuff. Again, I'm not saying I think you're wrong because you don't want to engage with the genre. If you don't find it fun or interesting, then go ahead and give it a pass. I think you're wrong because you're essentially arguing that no one should, under any circumstances.
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Jan 18, 2018 20:04
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Mors Rattus posted:I should note that the lurking dangers include crazy guys piloting secret ancient underground robots, a civilization of Troodon not-Klingons, and a small empire in the southeast which has Shaolin Deinonychus monks. I honestly hadn't heard of those, but now I remember I think I only have two of the YA books, and one is because they had Smilodons, and I was pretty loving obsessed with them at the time.
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Jan 18, 2018 20:14
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I can understand why the hosed up racist crap in Lovecraft's stories turn people off...but ultimately I feel like I have to make peace with the fact that the past is a terrible place. If I like anything written or created more than 30 years ago, odds are good that the creator held some beliefs that I would find intolerable (I mean, odds are still pretty good now, being honest). If I cut myself off from anything created by an rear end in a top hat then I deny myself the benefits of a lot of great stories and art. Now, I definitely draw the line at financially supporting monstrous people, but fortunately that's not a concern for Lovecraft. That said, it's good to be aware of the racist elements, especially when it comes to creating your own content for things like stories or RPGs. I'm not going to touch the tcho-tcho with a 10-foot pole for instance, that's not even thinly disguised racism there and has no place being intentionally put into anything at this point. Deep ones, ghouls and serpent people all have their own implications and issues, but done properly you can still tell a story about scary fish-people living below the waves or ancient snake people or whatever without turning it into something repugnant. Whether or not its worthwhile is a more personal judgement. I can certainly understand why someone would just want to say "gently caress it" and start from scratch.
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Jan 18, 2018 20:44
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I think Lovecraft was a funny silly man and he's burning in Hell and I hope it bothers him that I rub my dirty miscegenated hands all over his work. BY THE SKIN OF THEIR TEETH – PART THREE Stiff Upper Lip If the investigators look for help from the embassies, or if they've been attacked by the Brotherhood in the baths or elsewhere, they can find an ally in the Deputy High Commissioner of the British Embassy. This man, Sir Douglas Rutherford, will even arrange for a car to pick up the team if he wants to speak to them. Rutherford is a racist stuffed-shirt, but he has resources that the investigators might find valuable. When they meet him, Rutherford is distressed. His son has been stolen from the embassy, the latest in the string of kidnappings, and he begs the investigators to help find him. He can offer them money and whatever aid he can render them. The problem with this set-up is that it implies a new level or urgency to the kidnappings, as if dozens of Turkish kids don't matter but this one white kid absolutely must be saved, but whatever. James Rutherford was playing in the embassy gardens when he was taken. Spot Hidden lets the investigators notice the strange scarring around the eyes and ears of one of the groundskeepers – a Brother of the Skin! He tries to escape if discovered, and if captured starts ranting about how the Brothers have all the children and soon the Skin Beast will kill them all. At this point, the tattoo on his arm activates its deadly spell and causes his throat to fill up with skin, choking him to death (1/1D6 SAN). After this, Rutherford spares nothing to help the team. But this amounts to nothing; the book has him give information but nothing else. He claims to have secret resources given to him by the British Government, but somehow this is a 'private affair' that doesn't warrant their use. As if having the embassy compromised by spies who abducted the child of a ranking diplomat somehow isn't a cause for concern? Considering the clear and present danger involved, the investigators should be able to get a detachment of armed guards at the very least. But of course, that would make the next part of the adventure too easy.  It's My Job, To Steal And Rob If they don't get captured by the Brotherhood, then investigators will eventually have to make the trip to Uskudar Cemetery, across the other side of the Bosporus Strait. This requires a boat trip, but while there is a regular ferry that runs until late night, a pack of rich and heavily-armed tourists with picks and shovels is not going to pass without comment. They'll probably have to catch the last ferry over and stay in the cemetery until morning. Hiring a boat might be a better option if investigators value their privacy. The fisherman Hakim the Unruly will take them over for 10 pounds, no questions asked, but will double his prices when he sees the digging equipment – you see, the wise effendis should have informed him of the risky nature of their operation. He is a ruthless businessman and him and his crew are happy to kill the investigators and dump them overboard if they think they're unarmed. If things start looking dangerous, he'll abandon the investigators unless they've warned him ahead of time and promised a bonus. Do the investigators have a translator? Hakim will do it, if all else fails. He'll be sure to rub the team's nose in the fact that this dodgy fisherman is now their foremost scholar. On the way over, the investigators might notice another smaller boat, headed in the same direction but keeping a stiff distance away. This is Mehmet. The cemetery is huge, a jumble of Islamic and Christian graves going back centuries, packed in tightly together. Garaznet's grave takes 1D3 hours to locate. Natural World or Science (Geology) reveals that the soil here is more loosely packed-together than it should be. As the investigators start digging, a shambling figure in rags approaches them, bearing a lantern. Hakim or Feyar identify him as Companion-to-the-Dead, a crazy beggar who lives in the cemetery and talks to the graves. He's mostly harmless, and unless shooed away will sit on a nearby gravestone and watch the proceedings. He whistles and sings, saying 'they' are restless tonight and that 'they' move in great numbers. As the investigators get ready to lift the stone slab that shelters Garaznet, Companion will get excited and shout encouragements. But when they do start to prise up the lid, he suddenly starts screaming at them to not open it, pushing the investigators away. He's not a serious threat and can be pretty easily shoved off. When the lid is opened, a disgusting stench fills the air. Garaznet's sarcophagous is full of boiling flesh – another Flesh Thing. It tries to grab and hold onto a single investigator while the Brotherhood launches their attack. Forty Brothers emerge from the shadows, stepping out from behind graves all around the team, as if the dead themselves have begun to rise!  GRAAAAAAAAAAAVES Here's the problem with this encounter. First of all, this is an absurd amount of effort on the part of the Brotherhood to capture the investigators. If they can mobilise forty cultists just like that, it probably would have been easier to just drag the investigators out of their hotel beds. Clearly, no-one in Constantinople can stop them. Second of all, the expectation here is that this isn't a combat encounter. That there are forty cultists is irrelevant, as the intent is that there's just too many for the investigators to take down – the book may as well have said '60' or '200'. Nor is there a map of the cemetery provided that would help the keeper run this as a huge fight. The thing is, the investigators will probably have guns (pistols, shotguns, rifles, maybe even an SMG if they're really crazy) and the skill to use them, whereas the Brothers literally only have knives. The book assumes four investigators, so that still leaves three of them and possibly Hakim and embassy bodyguards, if you let them have a couple. They might even be paranoid enough that they brought water to neutralise a Flesh Thing. So why shouldn't the investigators stand their ground and fight here? If they're tactical and cover the angles of approach, they should have a pretty good chance of surviving. Moreover, are the Brotherhood truly so devoted that they'd be willing to throw themselves into gunfire to make an opening for their allies? As religions go, worship of the Skinless One seems to be extremely materialistic and self-centred. If you put in the effort and planned around a really gung-ho team of investigators, you could make a really sick combat here. Maybe make the Brothers fight smarter and it becomes a terrifying stand-off against a horde of cultists, ducking and weaving around the graves as cover, gunfire lighting up the night. Whatever. Next time: skin!
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Jan 18, 2018 20:52
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Aren't SMGs incredibly dangerous to human enemies if anyone in the party has skill with one? I'm not quite sure which edition I have and which edition this is but I kinda remember Tommy Guns adding +5% to-hit per extra bullet fired in a burst up to doubled to-hit chance, randomly deciding how many rounds you hit with after that roll, and then doing like d10+2 which against unarmored humans is pretty brutal.
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Jan 18, 2018 20:57
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Down With People posted:It's My Job, To Steal And Rob  Also yeah wow that's an awful scenario to not be a combat an encounter and worse if it is. Something like this after all of the other encounters they've been through are probably going to be the breaking point for the players.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:29
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There is no situation more likely to gently caress up than 'unwinnable battle' in a TTRPG. Absolutely none. I've been putting off continuing Ashes of Middenheim a bit because that's exactly what's coming up, complete with no guidance on how to run it or enemy numbers besides 'I dunno, enough foes that the party will go down in 4-5 rounds if they don't get help'. Still, players look at a fight they can't win (or, in this case, apparently can't run from either) and usually start immediately trying to find a way to do so or a way out. Relying on players to give up rather than try to win the game is a pretty goddamn big assumption.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:32
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Night10194 posted:Aren't SMGs incredibly dangerous to human enemies if anyone in the party has skill with one? I'm not quite sure which edition I have and which edition this is but I kinda remember Tommy Guns adding +5% to-hit per extra bullet fired in a burst up to doubled to-hit chance, randomly deciding how many rounds you hit with after that roll, and then doing like d10+2 which against unarmored humans is pretty brutal.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:33
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The Chaosium house system basically has firearms be hilariously lethal to human opponents. Humans are soft, fragile creatures.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:37
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Mors Rattus posted:The Chaosium house system basically has firearms be hilariously lethal to human opponents. Humans are soft, fragile creatures. I remember their antidote, in-book, to PCs trying to use guns as a solution too often was, and I quote, 'a couple gunslinging Yig cultists.' Serpentine! Serpentine!
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Jan 18, 2018 21:38
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Night10194 posted:I remember their antidote, in-book, to PCs trying to use guns as a solution too often was, and I quote, 'a couple gunslinging Yig cultists.'
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Jan 18, 2018 21:44
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In the con games I've taken part in, generally speaking a party has only ever really needed one or two members that know how to Gun.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:56
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Night10194 posted:I remember their antidote, in-book, to PCs trying to use guns as a solution too often was, and I quote, 'a couple gunslinging Yig cultists.' Bravo, sir. Bravo.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:59
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The way they say it makes me imagine that the PCs are brutally tommygunning their way through a totally unrelated cult, at which point three snake cultists with custom guns and crazy moves descend from the ceiling, weapons akimbo, anachronistic laser sights in hand. After all, the edition I have also says that if you have 50+ Handgun and modern laser sights, you may fire both weapons (doubling your attacks per round) at no penalty.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:06
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The antidote to PCs relying on guns is "most of the monsters in CoC." The game is pretty old-fashioned and adversarial insofar as it herds players toward the preferred playstyle by just whacking them over the head with stuff they can't defeat.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:28
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Also, getting into a gun battle with human cultists creates piles of corpses and an uncomfortable discussion with law enforcement.
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Jan 18, 2018 23:02
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Nessus posted:Yeah, I think the overall intention was "combat is not off the table but this is not a tactical game." Pretty much, non-Delta Green CoC tends to best involve maybe one or two at most 'gun guys' because you're either gonna be turning cultists into red paste, dodging them doing the same to you, or facing something that looks at your gun as more a cute joke than anything else. Combat is a tool in the party you should have like any other skill, not a required part of the game experience.
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Jan 18, 2018 23:07
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It does sound like everyone wants a couple points in Dodge, though.
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Jan 18, 2018 23:15
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Yea 'get the gently caress away from that thing coming at you' is a fairly good skill to have for anyone in CoC
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Jan 18, 2018 23:18
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Not as much as "Get some other guy to do it".
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Jan 18, 2018 23:21
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sexpig by night posted:Pretty much, non-Delta Green CoC tends to best involve maybe one or two at most 'gun guys' because you're either gonna be turning cultists into red paste, dodging them doing the same to you, or facing something that looks at your gun as more a cute joke than anything else. Combat is a tool in the party you should have like any other skill, not a required part of the game experience.
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Jan 18, 2018 23:24
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Down With People posted:Horrient Cool Repo reference. I choked a little bit when saw 40 Cultists.
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Jan 18, 2018 23:30
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Nessus posted:While it does it in a more primitive way I think it actually manages to model this pretty well with the character resources: there are perhaps ten skills that are directly related to fighting, and even some of the GM option books I have only introduce things like "handloading: I Obviously Made My Hobby Into A Skill, But It Is Useful In A Couple Niche Situations" rather than "Tactical Operation Operational Tactics: Anti-Creature Robust Operational New York Military Strikes". They specifically mention that in the main rulebook when they go 'It should be taken as significant that the first skill you will encounter is Accounting, not Aikido or Attack.'
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Jan 18, 2018 23:34
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Nessus posted:While it does it in a more primitive way I think it actually manages to model this pretty well with the character resources: there are perhaps ten skills that are directly related to fighting, and even some of the GM option books I have only introduce things like "handloading: I Obviously Made My Hobby Into A Skill, But It Is Useful In A Couple Niche Situations" rather than "Tactical Operation Operational Tactics: Anti-Creature Robust Operational New York Military Strikes". Yea the system itself lends itself to that, which is for sure a mark in its favor to me. Despite its issues you can't really accidentally make Tank The Guy What Can't Do Anything Unless A Cultist Needs Punching, even if you're mister tough guy ex-soldier hardened from years of man's horror you still probably at least have a fuckin hobby other than jacking off while staring at your rifle. Maybe you like camping and nature and junk because you were a sniper and spent a lot of time alone in the wilderness, cool, you can help there when it's not shooty shooty time. There's a few 'trap' skills and all but it's really hard to make a guy who can do literally nothing unless the gm bends the story to include a fight or whatever.
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Jan 18, 2018 23:35
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Speaking of the noble tool of murder, I can't remember; what actually happens if your party goes with the badass Romani party and they bring down the Walker with shotguns in the surprise round?
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Jan 18, 2018 23:39
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